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08-21-2005, 11:35 AM | #1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 07 - The Pyre of Denethor
Interestingly, this chapter begins at the same point in the story as the previous chapter, and the end of Chapter 4 - the Witch King leaves the gate of Minas Tirith as the horns of Rohan sound. However, we switch points-of-view; here, we are looking through Pippin's eyes, seeing the battle from within the city.
The first question that occurs to me is: Why does Pippin go through so much effort to save Faramir's life? Do we have any back story that would explain that? And why does Gandalf choose to save him instead of the others whom he must necessarily neglect? Why is Faramir so important? Connected to that is the second aspect - what would have been different if Denethor had not tried to take Faramir's life, at least? Would Gandalf have been able to save Théoden? He claims that he 'might' have. Would that have made a difference to the further storyline? Speculative questions, of course, but since when have we ever let that spoil a discussion?! We have several mentions throughout the chapter of the will of the Enemy, at work in the heart of the city. Do you think the palantír came as a surprise to Gandalf, or did he suspect that all along? Sauron's influence is most sharply felt in divisiveness, even to the point of killing friends instead of foes. What is your opinion on Beregond's role in this unhappy event? Should he have acted differently? Gandalf speaks of the "heathen kings" and their "pride and despair"; both of the latter traits are evident in Denethor. What is the difference between that kind of suicide and the voluntary giving up of life such as Aragorn's later on, following the gift given to the Númenoreans? Could Denethor still have changed his mind and aided his city and people, and what effect could that have had on the outcome of the battle? Denethor announces the coming arrival of the Corsair ships - did you catch that brief mention at first reading, and did that raise the suspense for you? Tolkien often mentions the theme of change, and we see that Denethor resists any change, wishing all to remain as it is. Is that his greatest failure? What do you think of his accusations to Gandalf? Imrahil plays a small yet vital role again - how do we account for his position that makes him a candidate for temporary ruler? What role did the palantír play in all of this? Do you think Denethor had the right to use it? The chapter ends with a note on the weather - the combination of fire and rain results in smoke. Do you see any significance in that?
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08-21-2005, 11:52 AM | #2 | ||||||
Illustrious Ulair
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I want to return to Gandalf’s confrontation with Denethor later but a few things struck me on reading the early drafts. Quote:
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I wonder if this is pointing up a difference between Gandalf & Denethor. Gandalf’s ‘sight’ is an ability that has been ‘given to him’ & so is ‘natural’, Denethor has used the Palantir, an unnatural, artificial, means of ‘seeing’. Gandalf sees clearly & truthfully, what Denethor sees is unclear, confused & misleading. Gandalf was given his ‘sight’, Denethor took his. |
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08-23-2005, 04:24 AM | #3 | ||||
Princess of Skwerlz
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An excellent lecture on "The Good, the Bad, and the Static: Wise Wanderers and Tired Travellers in Middle-earth" by Marjorie Willetts at 'Tolkien 2005' last week prompted me to think more deeply about Denethor's "I would have things as they were" speech in this chapter.
I know we've had past discussions about the theme of change in Tolkien's works. The events of the LotR ring in the Fourth Age, a major change in the history of Middle-earth. "Stopping change is stopping growth", Ms. Willett said, and I'm sure Tolkien would have agreed. In the context of this discussion, I will limit myself to the Steward and his failure - and/or unwillingness - to change. Change has both a physical aspect (wandering, leaving the place where one is to go to another) and a psychological/spiritual aspect (being able to see from a different viewpoint, open to new experiences). Denethor identified himself so strongly with the one role he had to play as Steward that he was unwilling to change that role, fearing to jeopardize his identity in doing so. As so often happens, tragically, he accomplished precisely what he didn't want to - he jeopardized himself to the point of taking his own life rather than to change. He stayed in one place, not even willing to leave his fortified city for the sake of battle. That gave him a very limited point of view - though the palantír gave him an additional one, unfortunately biased and twisted. He was not willing to see another point of view, in this case, that of Gandalf, which was the realistic one - he could have changed, could have gone out and fought. Gandalf says: Quote:
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Not only that, he takes it upon himself to make the same decision for his son Faramir! He will not allow him to make any changes. Gandalf's words are wonderful here: Quote:
Denethor stands in sharp contrast to Gandalf, the ultimate wanderer of Middle-earth, who has gained wisdom and experience, has a balanced point of view, and is willing to change even to the point of leaving Middle-earth when his task there is fulfilled. PS - davem's signature quote is quite appropriate to this discussion! Quote:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 08-23-2005 at 04:28 AM. |
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08-23-2005, 08:10 AM | #4 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Davem, I have always been intrigued by the "Gandalf ‘beheld with the sight that was given to him" paragraph as well. Maia vision or perhaps a touch of omnipresense? Of particular note for me was the sentence before that paragraph:
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08-23-2005, 12:24 PM | #5 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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Denethor's tragedy seems to have its root in his desire for the impossible - whatever happens he will not get what he wants. He wants things to be as they were in the past. Whether Sauron achieves the victory or Aragorn returns in triumph, Denethor loses. As Esty says he has effectively 'painted himself into a corner'. He cannot move, because he has nowhere to go.
Its kind of an 'Elvish' desire - he wants to embalm the past & fix it immobile & unchanging. Only death provides a way out. Symbolically the Elves make the same choice. Once the Rings pass they can no longer hold things in stasis, so they too have no option but to leave the world. Denethor's words could have come from the mouth of any Elf: Quote:
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08-24-2005, 09:38 PM | #6 | ||||
Cryptic Aura
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Once again Estelyn, a good introduction to the discussion!
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08-25-2005, 12:43 AM | #7 | |||
Wight
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So many themes, so little time
To take up Estelyn's first point in the introductory post: Why would Faramir be so important to Pippin and to the story? I don't know if it would be considered a backstory or not, but through Pippin's eyes we are shown more of Faramir's nature.
Although we readers have met Faramir and have already seen his fortitude in refusing to take the Ring from Frodo, Pippin knows nothing of this. He is 'introduced' to Faramir by Gandalf's description of him, and the praise of Beregond. The reader is thus given more insight into the nature of Denethor's younger son. Gandalf: Quote:
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The importance of Faramir may be that he does compare so favorably with his father and brother. So far, Gondor's ruling family has been represented largely by Boromir's pride and dependence on physical prowess and Denethor's pride and dependence on his mental and political abilities. Then Pippin gets his first sight of Faramir. Quote:
Also, here is a little tidbit to consider about the sons of Denethor. Boromir dying to save Pippin and Merry probably ended up saving his brother's life. Pippin swore fealty to Denethor inspired by his liking for Boromir and his gratitude for Boromir's sacrifice. Denethor kept Pippin near him as a reminder of Boromir. When Denethor decided to burn himself and Faramir, a Gondorian soldier might not have thought to question Denethor's orders or seek help from Gandalf, as Pippin did.
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08-25-2005, 01:41 AM | #8 | ||||
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That's all for now, folks. |
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08-25-2005, 11:28 AM | #9 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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The interesting thing is that when he is confronted with the outcome of his command to Faramir he is broken by it. He commanded his son to undertake what was effectively a suicide mission, but when his son is apparently mortally wounded as a result of his order, he snaps. He claims the power of life & death over others, but he cannot accept the consequences. Shockingly, he still cannot break himself of using that power. He has seen the result of its use first hand & yet he is still driven by his pride to command his servants to commit murder. Like Saruman, he has looked into the Palantir & striven with Sauron. Saruman surrendered, Denethor did not, but it seems that in some way both of them ended up by ‘imitating’ Sauron in the way they treat their servants. What’s interesting in this context is the way Denethor’s servants seem to accept this power. They don’t seem (apart from Beregond) to question Denethor’s will. They seem little better than robots, apparently feeling that the oath they swore removes their own moral responsibility & they can claim that whatever they do they we’re ‘only obeying orders’. We see how far Gondor has fallen. Finally, Denethor’s comment is interesting: Quote:
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08-25-2005, 12:46 PM | #10 | ||
Beloved Shadow
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For instance, when my friends and I play a game of football, I don't hold any sort of legal power, but when I say "Ok, here's what we're going to do..." my friends don't argue with me. They believe that I am properly qualified to lead them and make decisions so I really don't need to "pull rank" on them. I think the same thing goes for Gandalf. He is qualified to lead and make decisions and he is powerful and everyone knows it, so why not give orders?
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08-25-2005, 12:57 PM | #11 | |
Cryptic Aura
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My question isn't really so much about 'pulling rank' as asking how and why characters in M-e come to have 'authority.' Or even simply, 'what is authority?'--which is I think one of the larger issues in this chapter especially in light of Beregond.
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08-25-2005, 02:15 PM | #12 | |
Beloved Shadow
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08-27-2005, 07:05 AM | #13 | |||
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The Palantír, foreshadowing, heathen kings and 'Beowulf'
I'm of the opinion that a farcical aquatic ceremony is the only legitimate means of conferring true authority.
Now that my jest is guaranteed an intelligible context, here are a few brief thoughts on this chapter. In her excellent introduction, Estelyn posed the question: Quote:
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The reference to 'wrestling' with Sauron naturally brings to mind the earlier contest which Aragorn initiated using the Palantír of Orthanc, which he won only by the narrowest of margins. The events of this chapter are, then, foreshadowed much earlier in the narrative and only at this point explained as they come to a head. The reference to 'heathen kings' reminds me of a passage from Beowulf, one of the narrator's many Christian comments on the events in the narrative: Quote:
I'm afraid that I don't have time to give any more than those very brief ideas, but I hope that they are of some use.
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08-27-2005, 08:15 AM | #14 |
Riveting Ribbiter
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Hmm, Gandalf taking charge never seemed strange to me, although I suppose there isn't a clear "authorization" from the Gondorian leadership of the moment for him to do so. But if not Gandalf, who is left to take charge? Denethor is not behaving rationally and Faramir ill, so there's no one in the House of Stewards that I'm aware of who could take charge. The Prince would be a candidate as another prominent leader, but he too goes to Gandalf for guidance. I suppose he could have implied permission from Aragorn, who will be the last word in Gondor once he reclaims the throne.
With regard to the weather, I thought it was interesting that the wind specifically brought the rain, given the importance of winds as messengers (the song as Boromir is sent down the river, the West wind rejecting Saruman after his death, etc). I also don't remember if rain is always grey. Frodo's grey rain-curtain as he reaches the West was the first image that came to mind on this re-reading.
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. Last edited by Celuien; 08-27-2005 at 09:39 AM. |
08-29-2005, 09:08 AM | #15 | |
Animated Skeleton
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For one so filled with pride as Denethor, this would be an untennable situation. (resume lurk mode...)
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08-30-2005, 02:12 AM | #16 | |
Wight
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The Squatter of Amon Rudh said
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Okay, to get back on topic: I have always thought that Gandalf was able to take up authority in Gondor after the battle of Pelenor Fields simply because he was on the spot and started taking care of things that needed to done, starting with sending Faramir to the Houses of Healing. And really, there aren't any other candidates available right after the battle: Denethor, dead; Faramir, at death's door; Prince Imrahil, busy on the battlefield plus he's not actually Gondorian -- he's part of the Steward's family by marriage; Aragorn, not willing to take on the leadership of the city officially; Eomer, certainly not Gondorian and busy with his own people. Of course, Gandalf isn't Gondorian either, but he is at least sane, healthy and not as tired as the rest of the leadership is after fighting for most of the last 24 hours. As Gandalf isn't making a bid for permanent power and is trying to get things under control, why not let him run things for awhile?
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09-04-2005, 12:01 PM | #17 | ||
Relic of Wandering Days
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It was also interesting to note that he mentions that his son’s behavior should cause not only the death of his people but of his father also. Is this the logic of Denethor as he orders the pyre constructed? For gentle Faramir he believes is dying, and his people also are dying, must Denethor therefore die too? The emphasis in this chapter for me is how the will of Sauron is bring carried out in the stronghold though Denethor. I doubt that a more effective agent could have been used, even spies or moles in the city would not have had this deeply felt effect! I know that I am no doubt in the minority, but I have always liked Denethor, though I despised the way he treated his sons. It is tragic how such a bright man, unwittingly, was so used without realizing it. Even in the end he seems to think his death is in defiance, when it is in reality a victory for the Dark Lord. How much more dispiriting to the people to have a leader kill himself, then to die fighting like Theoden. And what a contrast between what is happening in the lower city where the enemy is recognisible, to what is happening at the top levels where the enemy's intent is disguised and it's protective armor is the oath of service the the city and its Lord. As for Gandalf’s decision to help Faramir, I believe there is a clue back in the chapter ‘Minas Tirith’ Quote:
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09-05-2005, 02:13 AM | #18 | |||||||||
Hauntress of the Havens
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Of Pippin's plea for Gandalf to save Faramir, the wizard had this to say:
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As for evil and sorrow, these others felt in response to Aragorn. The latter was expressed by Éomer and Théoden... Quote:
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In Denethor's case here, though, he seemed to be in perpetual blindness. It's as if his eyes have never seen light ever since Boromir died. Gandalf came and tried to 'enlighten' him, even giving his 'eyes' a chance to 'readjust' to his light. But sadly, Denethor was too deep into his own darkness that he shunned the light - and it was this darkness that brought him to his death. Quote:
Oops. I just found it ironic that Denethor said those words after saying these to Faramir in the Siege chapter: Quote:
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09-05-2005, 09:39 AM | #19 | ||||||||
Illusionary Holbytla
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Of brief interest is the use of fire - from the chapter "Minas Tirith:" Quote:
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09-07-2005, 04:30 AM | #20 |
Hauntress of the Havens
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I was listening in my second 'school' last night to a lecture on the proper way to give correction. The main points included the use of wisdom (the example given was that of the prophet Nathan telling a parable to convict King David of murdering Uriah and getting his wife, Bathsheba, for himself - from 1 (or 2?) Samuel), gentleness, and love. Naturally I thought of Gandalf, how he dealt with Denethor in the final days of his life. Not that I'm accusing Gandalf, but can we say that he erred in the way he rebuked Denethor's faults? And going further, can we even say he is partly responsible for the Steward's death?
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09-11-2005, 12:29 PM | #21 | |
Cryptic Aura
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For the record, the scene I referred to between Imrahil and Gandalf occurs before Denethor's death. Imrahil does not know what occurs in the dark back room of the Steward's rule. While we readers thoroughly no doubt concur with Gandalf doing something, how is it that Tolkien has characters, who are not privy to our knowledge courtesy the narration's omniscience, submit to Gandalf? What makes intellectual domination possible? What forces spark Imrahil's imagination and those of others to submit to Gandalf's authority? Is it simply a matter of 'weaker' characters submitting to someone who acts and speaks as if he knows what's going on? It is a will to find some order in the chaos? I suppose I am asking because I am very intrigued by the differences between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White. We know, we are told, that Gandalf has been given carte blanche to deploy all his powers after he returns from his fight with the balrog. But what does this mean? Can he use his words and eloquence the way Saruman does? So how do those who willingly submit know that he is right? How is his use of his powers different from the way that, say, Saruman deployed his abilities? Is it simply that by definition Gandalf is one of the good guys and so he can establish his dominion--I won't say domination--without question? Or does the side of good use different strategies to produce choice among followers? This question no doubt requires reference to far more than this scene in this chapter, but I find it interesting. In part, it is answered by the way Gandalf proceeds in "The Last Debate", but that occurs after this scene with Imrahil.
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10-07-2005, 01:08 PM | #22 | ||||
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In response to Beth's question...
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Faramir is without a doubt the purest, if you get what I mean, of the Steward's household (Denethor, Boromir, Faramir), and notice that he is the one who is accused of being a "wizard's pupil". Also, what about the hobbits of the Shire? You don't see Ted Sandyman or Lotho Baggins being chummy with Gandalf, do you? No, you see Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin following him- the best of the hobbits. It seems to me that Gandalf (particularly Gandalf the White) has only a thin veil over his nature, which is undoubtedly "good", which means that his goodness can be sensed by anyone with a halfway perceptive heart and mind. Therefore, those who are both good and perceptive are likely to follow him without much hesitation. To see how this works, simply look at the way the hobbits react to Aragorn when they first meet him and don't know if they should trust him. Which hobbit is the first to give Aragorn the benefit of the doubt? Frodo- the most perceptive of the hobbits. Frodo senses Aragorn's goodness. Frodo said this to Aragorn- Quote:
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In Gandalf's case, his true nature is probably less hidden than most. He is the white rider, sent by the Valar and then sent back by Eru himself! He is the very symbol of opposition to Sauron. Because of this, I'm not at all surprised that Sauron's opponents find it easy to take orders from Gandalf.
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10-15-2005, 04:44 PM | #23 | |
Banshee of Camelot
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A very late afterthought to this discussion on what authority Gandalf could take command in Minas Tirith:
Well, it was Denethor himself who "authorized" him, in a way! In "the Siege of Gondor", after Faramir had been brought back wounded and unconscious and Denethor was sitting at his bed: Quote:
I must say, I wondered too about Denethor's servants - that they would obey him so blindly, to the degree of actually helping to kill him and Faramir ! ( "Kadavergehorsam" this is called in German) Can't understand the doorwarden either, who would rather fight to the last than let Beregond- who after all was not an enemy! pass.
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11-22-2008, 09:29 AM | #24 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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Found a couple of mentions of staff-breaking by a Steward (Worcester) in Shakespeare (Richard II)
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11-29-2008, 11:53 PM | #25 | |
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Through the use of this Power, the Voice, Saruman swayed men to his dominion, such as the men of Dunland who rose up against the Rohirrim at the Battle of the Hornburg. This is because Saruman wanted Domination, and it is for this reason that he was deposed by Gandalf, being stripped of staff and color. However, Gandalf, through the use of the White Voice, if you will, is not seeking dominion, or Domination, of the minds of Men or Halflings: he wishes for Minas Tirith to be held against the forces of the Enemy. This is why Gandalf deserves this carte blanche: he is not taken by the desires which have long gnawed at the heart of Saruman, and this is why he was even allowed to come back from the battle with the Balrog. This all being said, there is no place where any of those who listen to the counsels of Gandalf remark that they feel they are being swayed by leechcraft, except perhaps Theoden, when he is healed by Gandalf. This could be because they are not aware of his spellwork, as they were when they had the parley with Saruman at Isengard. However, I myself doubt this. It is not in Gandalf's character (so far as we the reader know) to manipulate maliciously. ((This is fun! I might come back and read with youse more often. ))
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11-30-2008, 10:40 AM | #26 |
Cryptic Aura
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Some people are picking up very old threads. Does that necessitate reading them over again to see what's what?
Guinevere's quote is excellent for pointing out the significant effect of Gandalf's presence, the inspiring sense of hope. It is a very Obama-like situation. And Strongbow--welcome to the Downs--will your posts be as a good libation?--is spot on that Gandalf does not operate to gain power for himself. Yet in so many other situations Gandalf did not inspire hope, but suspicion. What changed to bring hope into Gandy's presence here and now at the Seige? by the by, it is interesting to note that Denethor does not seem to acknowledge the White in Gandalf, as Denethor calls him the Grey Fool.
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10-23-2018, 11:52 AM | #27 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Does it not bother anyone else that every time there is some surprise revelation Gandalf goes "Oh yeah, I knew that for a long time!". I think the only one he admitted to not knowing or suspecting was the Balrog. It bothers me, like he has to show that he knows best even though he didn't do anything about it when there was still a chance to prevent something. Denethor's palantir gazing was a topic of rumour as far as Rohan, though no one actually suspected a palantir (except know-it-all Gandalf of course). So if Gandalf thought this was the source of Denethor's knowledge and also his madness, could he have not used his suspicion to convince Denethor he is not all-knowing and all-powerful? Convince him that Gandalf can know something too, and through his own cleverness rather than a magic item? It's debatable if Denethor could have been scared or humbled into sanity or at least submission, but could Gandalf have at least tried? I'm not making a case against Gandalf here, but it just bugs me that - once again - he claims he suspected the thing after it happens.
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10-23-2018, 12:15 PM | #28 | ||
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In The Hobbit there's that line about Gandalf not minding explaining his cleverness more than once, and that's just the way he rolls, so to speak. I cut him some slack: he's an immortal being wearing a mortal form and subject to bodily constraints; he has to use guile and persuasion (with the very limited expression of raw power) to induce lesser beings more concerned with their own problems to pay attention to Sauron; and he also must deal tactfully with the big egos who think they should be the leaders against Sauron's menace. Maybe pointing out when he's right is an effort to put across the idea of "See? I was right again. When will you bloody listen to me?" Quote:
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10-23-2018, 02:11 PM | #29 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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I do agree that there probably wasn't much Gandalf could reasonably have achieved with Denethor even if he tried. It's more the know-it-all attitude after the thing happened that annoys me.
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03-10-2019, 06:53 AM | #30 |
Dead Serious
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Before thinking about my reread, in response to the ancient questions above about Gandalf's authority to put Imrahil in command, it seems to me that the context of their conversation is missing: Gandalf doesn't have to convince Gondor that Imrahil is in command, just Imrahil. As noted above, Imrahil is disposed as "a good person" to trust Gandalf--and in case we have any doubt that this new, minor character is a good person, we just saw him (albeit in what will be his future) effectively saving Eowyn and being leagued with Aragorn and Imrahil.
So if Gandalf convinces Imrahil to take command, I think he's all set. Argue, if you will, whether it would be within the scope of the prince's authority to take charge of Gondor's military, but I don't think there's any doubt that he would be obeyed if he gave orders--unless someone arrived with the Steward's authority to gainsay him, and the Steward has been AWOL for days. "The Siege of Gondor" shows that when Denethor abandons care for the defences that it's Gandalf and Imrahil going about motivating the troops. Quite apart from that, however, he's the highest ranked noble in the city and brother-in-law to the Steward (and I think we can say that his presence in the city's hour of need--as the Lord of Belfalas--is telling when Gondor's south is so threatened, and thus so unable to send significant numbers--is telling of his close loyalty to the Steward). As for the reread... "The Pyre of Denethor" is a favourite chapter of mine. The tragedy of the House of Denethor is one of my favourite bits, engaging in its own right and a perfect answer to anyone who says Tolkien wrote only in black and white. Beregond's dilemma and choices are equally grey, even if his own character is far more clear-cut. Following orders is not a minor matter for a soldier in war and slaying the doorwarden is as murky a moral.choice as anything Gollum does.
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03-10-2019, 09:46 AM | #31 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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I always assumed Gandalf "gave" Imrahil command fairly informally; Imrahil seems to have been wise enough to have recognised Gandalf's good sense, and as Formendacil has said, he alone needed to be convinced, perhaps even just informed; Imrahil was (by position at least) possibly the second most important man in Gondor after Denethor himself.
(Prince of Dol Amroth seems to have been one of the highest positions in the realm; his ancestor had been "chief" of Cirion's companions at the swearing of the Oath of Eorl, and one of only four men (along with Cirion and Eorl themselves, and Eorl's own Chief Captain Éomund) who decided on the boundaries of Rohan.) It was probably Imrahil's responsibility in the chain of command to take charge at that point, and simply needed someone better-informed than himself at that time, who he respected, to tell him that he needed to take on that role.
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03-10-2019, 11:06 AM | #32 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,321
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I agree; Imrahil was the Senior Surviving Officer, both given the elevated status of the Principality of Dol Amroth as the premier peerage of the realm, as well as his being Denethor's and Faramir's nearest living kinsman
Gandalf just had to elbow him in the ribs to remember his cue (in part because Imrahil was expecting Aragorn to step up on the spot).
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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