The Point of the Unions

[Elianna]

I always have this problem when analyzing texts: I know something is important, but I don't know why, or what it means.

Why are the marriages of Beren and Lúthien, and Tuor and Idril, and Aragorn and Arwen important? I know through them better blood, Elven blood came into Men's gene pool, but what's the literary message here?

Why is it always the girl who was immortal? Why couldn't the guy be an elf and have to become mortal? I can't think of an answer to this one that doesn't involve sexism and making fun of Elven grace.

What made Tuor so special that he could become counted among the Elves, when Lúthien and Arwen had to become mortal? Maybe Aragorn was too far down with Men through the Ages to be counted Elven, but Beren is a direct decendent of Bëor of the First House of the Edain and valiant enough to oppose Morgoth even in Taur-Nu-Fuin. Tuor *checks* okay, he lived as a slave and outlaw, but fighting against Easterlings, not Sauron. It seems Turgon let Tuor marry Idril mostly because he was the son of Huor, who had fought valiantly by Turgon's side in the Dagor Aglareb, and little because of Tuor's own greatness. And Tuor was favored by Ulmo; but why?

[Kath]

What made Tuor so special that he could become counted among the Elves, when Lúthien and Arwen had to become mortal?

This I thought was to show the theme of sacrifice. A large part of the message of both the Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings is the overwhelming power of love. The greatest sacrifice that a person could make for love would surely be to give up immortality for the chance to be with the one you love.

As to why it is the women that have to make this sacrifice and not the men I don't know. For a sexist argument toward men rather than women maybe Tolkien felt that women were more likely to have the greatness of heart to make this kind of a sacrifice.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Elianna

Why is it always the girl who was immortal? Why couldn't the guy be an elf and have to become mortal? I can't think of an answer to this one that doesn't involve sexism and making fun of Elven grace.

I'll ignore the larger question for the moment, and just focus on this one aspect of it for the moment.

The reason, it would seem, is that this mirrors Tolkien's own life. Certainly, he wrote several times about his own life experience with his wife (Edith) was a major inspiration for the tale of Beren and Luthien. Tolkien very much felt like an unworthy Beren winning the hand of the beautiful Elven princess. So much that on their tombstones, the only quotes/inscriptions are "Luthien" and "Beren".

I would say that this just carried over naturally to the other tales. Aragorn and Arwen was, in any event, a deliberate imitation of Beren and Luthien. As for Tuor and Idril- I'm not sure, but the Tale of Gondolin predates that of Beren and Luthien, so perhaps IT was the original tale.... Who knows?

And as for why Tolkien never bothered to "balance" them with a few tales of male elves and female women, I don't know. Certainly, I doubt if he saw the need to balance it, and personally I think an unnatural balance of three males elves and three female elves marrying women/men is just that: unnatural.

And, although Tolkien never did have a male elf/human woman MARRIAGE, he did have a tragic relationship: that of Aegnor and Andreth.

Or maybe Tolkien just foresaw all the Legolas/fangird fanfics...

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

And, although Tolkien never did have a male elf/human woman MARRIAGE, he did have a tragic relationship: that of Aegnor and Andreth.

I've heard of this story, but nothing more than the couple's names and races. Where can I read it?

[daeron]

Arwen had to turn mortal becaue the last ships which can take her back were already leaving ME. The Valar were setting down the last dates for return. Arwen cannot stay till Aragorn's death and later take a ship. Remember the roads were bent forever.
Luthien turned mortal only in her second reincarnation and that too because she wanted Beren to live a second life. She would have been reincarnated anyway, but she could not bear to live without Beren. She died of grief the first time. She turned mortal voluntarily to save herself pain.
Idril on the other hand may have agreed to live even after Tuor dies. As to why Tuor should turn immortal, I know not the answer. Maybe they stopped giving out "Elven tokens" from second age onwards. Also, would Elessar have been able to leave everything he had fought for and leave ME. I think no. What would have happened to ME if he had left. The Valar would also have to take that into consideration. Afterall, love stories aren't their only worries.

[Kath]

Arwen cannot stay till Aragorn's death and later take a ship.

Why not? Sam, Legolas and Gimli all took a later ship, and I think that was after Aragorn's death.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Why not? Sam, Legolas and Gimli all took a later ship, and I think that was after Aragorn's death. (Kath)

I think Legolas was the last known Elf to leave Middle-earth, and he had to make his own ship--by this time the Grey Havens were closed, and Círdan had already departed.

However, Arwen could not leave Middle-earth whether there was a ship to bear her or not. She had chosen to be mortal when she plighted her troth with Aragorn in Cerin Amroth.

I've heard of this story, but nothing more than the couple's names and races. Where can I read it? (Elianna)

I first saw their names in Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, in HoME X.

My brain's currently in a weird place, and it won't be back for some time, so I'll have to address some points later.

[Kath]

However, Arwen could not leave Middle-earth whether there was a ship to bear her or not. She had chosen to be mortal when she plighted her troth with Aragorn in Cerin Amroth.

I know but this is still a point I don't entirely understand. Though Frodo and Sam were mortal they had special dispensation to go over the sea, same with Gimli, why not so for Arwen?

[Fallenstar]

I was wondering about the union between Arwen and Aragorn. The point of that marriage may well be what Tolkien said in the appendix: "the two lines of the Half-Elven finally joined together."(that's not a direct quote, just an idea, I am too lazy to check right now.)

maybe Tolkien just don't want to deal with the Half-Elven anymore...he had to give them excuses for every choice they make...

[daeron]

Arwen was the last of the Noldor in ME. All the Noldor left with Elrond. Maybe the Noldor had a special ban or something considering the curse of Mandos.
But I still think, Aragon couldn't leave and Arwen couldn't live without him.

[Elrian]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

I think Legolas was the last known Elf to leave Middle-earth, and he had to make his own ship--by this time the Grey Havens were closed, and Círdan had already departed.

.

Legolas built his ship after the death of Aragorn and sailed with Gimli afterwards. I believe it says somewhere in one of the books that Cirdan did not sail until the 4th century of the 4th age. It also says that Cirdan himself would be the last to sail into the West.

[Dimturiel]

Kath was asking how come Frodo, Sam and Gimli,who were all mortal, could depart for the Undying Lands and why Arwen could not. Well, Frodo and Sam were both Ringbearers, they had both born a very heavy burden, and granting them admittance in Valinor was not only a reward, it was a possibility for them to be healed. Gimli had Galadriel's favour and that is why he could go with Legolas. For the other mortals, I think the road was shut. And Arwen chose not only to be mortal, but to be human also and no human had ever been aloud in the land of Aman.

[Elrian]

Originally Posted by Dimturiel

[B] For the other mortals, I think the road was shut. And Arwen chose not only to be mortal, but to be human also and no human had ever been aloud in the land of Aman.

Tuor had been allowed in, he was human.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

What made Tuor so special that he could become counted among the Elves, when Lúthien and Arwen had to become mortal? (Elianna)

I should just point out that being an Elf is not a reward, and being mortal is not punishment. In a world called Morgoth's Ring, is not Death, freedom from the Circles of a Fallen World, a prized gift, more so than immortality?

It seems Turgon let Tuor marry Idril mostly because he was the son of Huor, who had fought valiantly by Turgon's side in the Dagor Aglareb, and little because of Tuor's own greatness. And Tuor was favored by Ulmo; but why? (Elianna)

Too much Tuor-bashing in one paragraph—I can't take it.

Let's look at that moment when Tuor and Ulmo met:

. . . Ulmo spoke to Tuor of Valinor and its darkening, and the exile of the Noldor, and the Doom of Mandos and the hiding of the Blessed Realm. “But behold!” said he, “in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach . . . Yet . . . now the Curse of Mandos hastens to its fulfilment, and all the works of the Noldor shall perish, and every hope which they build shall crumble. The last hope alone is left, the hope that they have not looked for and have not prepared. And that hope lieth in thee; for so I have chosen.”

UT I 1

Tuor asks the same question you did—why him?

[Ulmo: ]If I choose to send thee, Tuor son of Huor, then believe not that thy one sword is not worth the sending . . . But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness.

ibid

(Take that, anti-Special Freedom of Men people! But that is a topic for another thread.)

It was a plus for Tuor that he was the son of Huor, who was close to Turgon. But he was chosen primarily for being a Man, free from the chains of Fate.

Arwen was the last of the Noldor in ME. All the Noldor left with Elrond. Maybe the Noldor had a special ban or something considering the curse of Mandos. (daeron)

No. By the end of the First Age the Doom of Mandos had been lain to rest.

It seems that I need more resources (and thinking) to answer the other questions. So, again, later!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kath

I know but this is still a point I don't entirely understand. Though Frodo and Sam were mortal they had special dispensation to go over the sea, same with Gimli, why not so for Arwen?

Arwen had to die because she CHOSE a mortal life. By chosing, deliberately, to remain behind with Aragorn, she was chosing a mortal life. When Aragorn died, she had nothing left that she wished to live for, and that mortality kicked in. Do you honestly think she would want to live out the Ages in Valinor- alone- when she could die and be with Aragorn again? Luthien obviously didn't...

Originally Posted by daeron

Arwen had to turn mortal becaue the last ships which can take her back were already leaving ME. The Valar were setting down the last dates for return. Arwen cannot stay till Aragorn's death and later take a ship. Remember the roads were bent forever.

Those roads had been bent for an Age already, since the Fall of Numenor. I highly doubt that THAT had anything do with it.

People on this thread seem to be forgetting that Arwen was not a full-blooded Elf. Like her brothers, the famed Half-Elven Elladan and Elrohir, she was part Man as well. And this is very important.

The reason being that it is said that the children of Elrond were offered a choice, just as he and Elros had been, to choose Man and Mortality, or Elvenkind and Eternity. Why on earth Tolkien decided to give them this choice, except for plot reasons, I don't know, but there it is: the children of Elrond could choose immortality by staying with him and returning to the Undying Lands, or they could choose mortality by remaining in Middle-earth without him.

Arwen, by reason of choosing to marry Aragorn, was choosing to remain in Middle-earth, and not return to the Undying Lands- at all. She was choosing mortality.

What Elladan and Elrohir did is not known. It is said that they lingered in Middle-earth for a time, until the death of their sister, but it is not said that they chose mortality, or that they chose to join Elrond in the West. Their fate is a story that fanfic writers dream of...

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

I think Legolas was the last known Elf to leave Middle-earth, and he had to make his own ship--by this time the Grey Havens were closed, and Círdan had already departed.

Originally Posted by daeron

Arwen was the last of the Noldor in ME. All the Noldor left with Elrond. Maybe the Noldor had a special ban or something considering the curse of Mandos.
But I still think, Aragon couldn't leave and Arwen couldn't live without him.

Tsk, tsk, you two... Can't you read?

In the "Grey Havens" it says:

Then Elrond and Galadriel rode on; for the Third Age was over, and the Days of the Rings were passed, and an end was come of the story and song of those times. With them went many Elves of the High Kindred who would no longer stay in Middle-Earth; and among them, filled with a sadness that was yet blessed and without bitterness, rode Sam, and Frodo, and Bilbo, and the Elves delighted to honour them.

-emphasis mine

My points here are... where does it say that ALL the Noldor left with Elrond? There is no mention of Glorfindel in this chapter, nor of Erestor. And, if Arwen (who is as Sindar as she is Noldor) is to be accounted a Noldo, then Elladan and Elrohir must be remembered, and they remained in Middle-earth for a time.

Furthermore, as the above quote indicates, only MANY of the High Folk (the Noldor) left. Many does not equal all. Furthermore, the Epilogue has Sam telling Elanor that there are still many Elves in Middle-Earth, and there will be for many long years to come. In time, perhaps she would see some, maybe even a few of the lingering HIGH ELVES (paraphrasing, since I don't have the book handy).

Next, my dear Nilpaurion, where does it say that Cirdan departed? I have just read the end of the "Grey Havens" (looking for the above quote) and nowhere does it actually say that Cirdan left. On the other hand, there is a very clear statement (in the Silm, I believe) that Cirdan would not leave until the last ship set sail. Elrond's was not the last ship, and neither was Legolas'. Personally, I would say that the last ship STILL has not sailed, 5000-7000 years later... Cirdan could still be out there in some Cornish or Welsh fishing village, for all we know.

As the Grey Havens- they may or may not have been closed. I doubt it, that early on in the Fourth Age. At this point in time Rivendell was still well-populated with those left behind with Elladan and Elrohir, and recently joined by Celeborn and many of the Galadhrim. And Mirkwood was at the height of its power, and Legolas' realm would not be dead yet. Yes... I highly doubt if Cirdan had abandoned the Havens as early as when Arwen left Gondor.

[Kath]

Arwen had to die because she CHOSE a mortal life. By chosing, deliberately, to remain behind with Aragorn, she was chosing a mortal life. When Aragorn died, she had nothing left that she wished to live for, and that mortality kicked in. Do you honestly think she would want to live out the Ages in Valinor- alone- when she could die and be with Aragorn again? Luthien obviously didn't...

Thank you for that Formendacil, it's something I've wondered about ever since I first read the book and you have explained it nicely.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

In case anyone's interested, here are excerpts from Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, regarding the relationship between Andreth and Aegnor. 'tis a sad tale, but I'll let you read it for yourself:

'For the doom of Men that has touched thee as a woman,' said Finrod. 'Dost thou think that I do not know? Is he not my brother dearly loved? Aegnor: Aikanar, the Sharp-flame, swift and eager. And not long are the years since you first met, and your hands touched in this darkness. Yet then thou wert a maiden, brave and eager, in the morning upon the high hills of Dorthonion.'

'Say on!' said Andreth. 'Say: who art now but a wise-woman, alone, and age that shall not touch him has already set winter's grey in thy hair! But say not thou to me, for so he once did!'

'Alas!' said Finrod. 'That is the bitterness, beloved adaneth, woman of Men, is it not? that has run through all your words. If I could speak any comfort, you would deem it lordly from one on my side of the sundering doom. But what can I say, save to remind you of the Hope that you yourself have revealed?'

'I did not say that it was ever my hope,' answered Andreth. 'And even were it so, I would still cry: why should this hurt come here and now? Why should we love you, and why should ye love us (if ye do), and yet set the gulf between?'

'Because we were so made, close kin,' said Finrod. 'But we did not make ourselves, and therefore we, the Eldar, did not set the gulf. Nay, adaneth, we are not lordly in this, but pitiful. That word will displease thee. Yet pity is of two kinds: one is of kinship recognized, and is near to love; the other is of difference of fortune perceived, and is near to pride. I speak of the former.'

'Speak of neither to me!' said Andreth. 'I desire neither. I was young and I looked on his flame, and now I am old and lost. He was young and his flame leaped towards me, but he turned away, and he is young still. Do candles pity moths?'

'Or moths candles, when the wind blows them out?' said Finrod. 'Adaneth, I tell thee, Aikanar the Sharp-flame loved thee. For thy sake now he will never take the hand of any bride of his own kindred, but live alone to the end, remembering the morning in the hills of Dorthonion. But too soon in the North-wind his flame will go out! Foresight is given to the Eldar in many things not far off, though seldom of joy, and I say to thee thou shalt live long in the order of your kind, and he will go forth before thee and he will not wish to return.'

Then Andreth stood up and stretched her hands to the fire. 'Then why did he turn away? Why leave me while I had still a few good years to spend?'

'Alas!' said Finrod. 'I fear the truth will not satisfy thee. The Eldar have one kind, and ye another; and each judges the others by themselves - until they learn, as do few. This is time of war, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child; but prepare for death - or for flight. Aegnor has no trust (nor have I) in this siege of Angband that it will last long; and then what will become of this land? If his heart ruled, he would have wished to take thee and flee far away, east or south, forsaking his kin, and thine. Love and loyalty hold him to his. What of thee to thine? Thou hast said thyself that there is no escape by flight within the bounds of the world.'

'For one year, one day, of the flame I would have given all: kin, youth, and hope itself: adaneth I am,' said Andreth.

'That he knew,' said Finrod; 'and he withdrew and did not grasp what lay to his hand: elda he is. For such barters are paid for in anguish that cannot be guessed, until it comes, and in ignorance rather than in courage the Eldar judge that they are made.

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would be that death should soon end it.'

'But the end is always cruel - for Men,' said Andreth. 'I would not have troubled him, when my short youth was spent. I would not have hobbled as a hag after his bright feet, when I could no longer run beside him!’

'Maybe not,' said Finrod. 'So you feel now. But do you think of him? He would not have run before thee. He would have stayed at thy side to uphold thee. Then pity thou wouldst have had in every hour, pity inescapable. He would not have thee so shamed.

'Andreth adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory; and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end. Now he will ever remember thee in the sun of morning, and that last evening by the water of Aeluin in which he saw thy face mirrored with a star caught in thy hair - ever, until the North-wind brings the night of his flame. Yea, and after that, sitting in the House of Mandos in the Halls of Awaiting until the end of Arda.'

'And what shall I remember?' said she. 'And when I go to what halls shall I come? To a darkness in which even the memory of the sharp flame shall be quenched? Even the memory of rejection. That at least.'

Finrod sighed and stood up. 'The Eldar have no healing words for such thoughts, adaneth,' he said. 'But would you wish that Elves and Men had never met? Is the light of the flame, which otherwise you would never have seen, of no worth even now? You believe yourself scorned? Put away at least that thought, which comes out of the Darkness, and then our speech together will not have been wholly in vain. Farewell!'

(Many thanks to H-I for the copy. )