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07-12-2005, 01:24 PM | #1 |
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The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan?
I wondered whether Eru gave the Istari a choice of free will to do and command as they wished, or were they directly under his command? If so, why was Saruman then overcome by desire to control the power of the One Ring, if he was originally sent to oppose those who harness it? I thought the Istari were meant to show through the power of Eru to some extent, but not in designs of war, but over commanding the will of the free people of the world against Sauron.
So if Eru's greatest servants also can be corrupted by the Ring, was the Treason of Isengard already planned by Eru, or does he have no direct influence on the fate of ME? Sending Gandalf alone would surely have been of greater benefit to ME than Saruman also, that is, unless Eru was not aware of what evils the Istari may turn to thereafter. Last edited by Mansun; 08-20-2006 at 02:21 PM. |
07-12-2005, 01:44 PM | #2 |
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I think Eru would have been aware of what Saruman would do - but that He didn't plan it. In Middle-earth there is free will but there are also consequences of free will. Saruman chose freely his road & brought his doom on himself. Eru knew everything that would happen - including when & how He would intervene personally, but to control everything all the time would have made the creation pointless - why not simply sit there in eternity & daydream?
Eru creates because it is His nature to create - He creates free creatures because that is the height of the Creator's art. for Him to have planned Saruman's treason means that he also planned his fate - which would either make Saruman little more than a robot, or worse, a victim, forced against his will to act in a way that was against his nature with no means to avoid the consequences. |
07-12-2005, 02:33 PM | #3 |
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Well...this is a whole question of 'is there free will or not?' then, isn't it? And as I've never been able to answer that question here in real life, I can't very well answer it for Middle Earth. I think that Eru is Tolkien's character for God, and so that whoever thinks that there is free will here on Earth will think that there is free will in Middle Earth, and those that believe God handles everything and no one has any free will here, will think the same for there.
So, unless it says otherwise, somewhere in the many histories of that world, I don't know if there is a real answer to this question...just a matter of opinion. I have no answer.
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07-12-2005, 03:11 PM | #4 |
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Nobody is under Eru's "command," but they all do what He "wants."
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07-12-2005, 03:47 PM | #5 |
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Free will is an interesting arguement and correct me if I'm wrong Mansun but it seems to me that you are in essence asking more about the relation of predestination and free will. Being that Eru is omnipotent the roles of everybody could be predestined could they not? However this goes against free will. I am of the opinion that an omnipotent being Eru (in Tolkien's world) or God knows exactly what every individual will do under a given set of circumstances. Does this take away from that individual's free will? No, it most definately doesn't.
The Istari were given certain roles to perform and they have their agency to decide what to do and what temptations to give into. Eru would know how Sauruman would act under certain conditions but he would not prohibit his errant ways even though they were against his initial charge to the Istari. I like to think of it foreordiantion as opposed to predestination. Before they came to Middle-earth the Istari were given certain roles to fulfill, they have their agency to choose how to fulfill them. They can either succeed or fail. Each is a distinct possibility, otherwise there is no true free agency.
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07-13-2005, 09:55 AM | #6 |
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You might find this interesting.
For those of you who don't want to read it, or don't have the time, this discussion of predestination versus free will was brought up. I quoted the Silmarillion where Iluvatar tells the Valar that no theme can be played but his and that even if they tried to go against His will, they would only become his instruments for things more beautiful. I pointed to that as saying that Eru predestined everything. But later, davem pointed out another quote that said that Men could shape their own lives apart from the Music. So it seems that Iluvatar has made a plan that everyone must follow, except men, who can do their own thing. So what about Saruman. Perhaps, in the form of a man, he was able to choose for himself what he really wanted. He chose away from what Eru desired for him, and almost ruined all hope. Yet you could make a case that Saruman's treachery was also part of the plan, and only 'made things more beautiful'. If he had not pushed against Theoden, then perhaps Rohan never would have come to Gondor's aid. So, indirectly, Saruman caused the winning of the battle before Minas Tirith, and incidently the victory over Sauron. But maybe that's stretching it.
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07-13-2005, 10:59 AM | #7 | |
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07-13-2005, 11:29 AM | #8 | |
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“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
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07-13-2005, 11:52 AM | #9 | |
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This allows free will even to those bound by the Music - they can make their choices & face the consequences of their choices while still remaining within the confines set by the Music. Their ultimate destiny is to act out the Music but their freedom is in the way they live it out & what happens to them as individuals as a result of what they do. The way I see it is that there are certain 'points' in time & space where certain things will happen, but those bound by the Music can choose how & why they will get there. Of course, this brings in the problem of the freedom of Men to act beyond the Music. If Men can choose to do things which aren't foreordained by the Music then they will create situations which conflict with what the Elves & Valar/Maiar are programmed to do. This would cause problems for those who have to live in accord with the Music - if Men use their freedom to make changes, that may make it difficult, if not impossible for the Elves to do what they are 'driven' to do. Perhaps this explains, 1, why they increasingly withdrew from the world - Men were changing it so much that it became impossible for the Elves to live out their destinies, & 2, why the Valar also palyed a less & less prominent role in the world. From this point of view, & as Eru must have realised, the Elves had to be given a place apart. Which would mean that the Elves were always intended to leave Middle-earth, & that this was set out in the Music (hence their innate desire to go into the West) - not so much because of any specific purpose, but rather because, having given Men such freedom of action, Eru realised that they had to be gotten out of the way for their own good & peace of mind. They played their part as they were destined to do - in whatever way they chose to - & at a certain point they would be taken away in order that they would not become a 'stumbling block' to the freedom of Men. |
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07-13-2005, 01:16 PM | #10 |
Dead Serious
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I wonder...
I think the freedom of men can be likened to a play...
Eru is the scriptwriter and the director. He wrote it, and decides how it ought to happen. Elves, Valar, and all those bound by the Music are the scripted actors. They have lines to memorise and specific parts to play. In the event that they forget a line, or have to respond to a messed up one, they can improvise, but they are still following a basic script. Men, on the other hand, are thrown onstage with no script, no memorisation. Think of them as gifted improvisers. They can say or do anything in response to what the scripted actors are doing or saying. They have to follow the basic guidelines of reacting to things that are actually happening/have happened, but they are not bound by the script. Of course, this means that the Elves, who are bound by the script, are doing a lot more improv of their own as a result, but they are still acting within the limits of their characters and themes as set out by the Director. What they do will obviously affect the improv Men, but what the Men do will also affect the broad script of the Director. Anyway, those are my thoughts... I'll go and digest them now...
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07-13-2005, 01:48 PM | #11 | |
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07-13-2005, 02:02 PM | #12 | |
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Or it could be like being on a road which forks only to join up again at a particular point - as a Valar, Maiar or Elf you get to choose which fork you take & so what experiences you will have & the state you're in when you get to the place where the road joins up again, but you don't get to choose not to end up at the place road meets again. Men, on the other hand, can just build new roads - of course, the terrain will affect where they build..... |
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07-14-2005, 12:00 AM | #13 |
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Burra's every post on the thread is a jewel. I officially issue a note to everyone in sight of these to rate them.
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07-14-2005, 12:26 AM | #14 |
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Freedom from constrainment or freedom from predestination???
A question that has boggled the greatest minds in philosophy and science. Are we here to play a role or do we just take up space (especially on BD )
I liked Davem's quote that men were allowed to build their own roads as opposed to just following them. It seems that Tolkien wrote Eru as a being of infinity where nothing was beyond him and all beings were created by him or as a result of him. So did this road that Davem and the others spoke of start here. He created the Valar/Gods and the greatest of them were Manwe and Melkor/Morgoth. Manwe seemed to represent all that was good (one path) and Melkor represented all that was evil (a split in the path). Manwe was given a land and world for him to govern while Melkor took a land for his own and built it to his designs. So the question comes up are the people of middle earth free from predestination. Obviously they are not, fate seems to play a big role in the books, as many characters meet their fates befitting their lives and choices. In the case of Saruman, Gandalf, Radagsat(SP) and the other two Istari they were sent to contest the will of Sauron. Saruman travelled to the blackland with the two wizards and only he returned, he studied his enemy intently only to instead hate him, become enamored in his plands and view him rather as a competitor or rival. In his attempt to grab power he inadvertently helps the fall of Sauron (as discussed above)l Radagast seems to go all lonely animal guy and lives with the lesser creature but aids by giving both Sauron and Gandalf the help with the lesser creatures that indirectly help topple Sauron. While Gandalf seems to move the wills of those who were destined to become major role players in the down fall of Sauron. It comes to me that all the things of middle earth are subject to Eru's will for they were created of his will. The music that Eru created is the flow of existence and only Eru seems to be the conductor and each person has a part to play in his orchestra. EZ
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07-14-2005, 01:37 AM | #15 |
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ramblings
Taking on davem's road comparison...each being bound by the Music has the freedom to choose a fork in the road, but Men are free to build their own roads. But in the end, they will realize that Eru has designed the whole terrain in a manner that they could never have comprehended; whichever paths they chose, they ended up right where Eru wants them to.
Or with Formendacil's play metaphor...the Music-bound people act as the Music sways them, Men do improvizations and affect the whole plot, as well as the former's acting. But once the curtain falls and they all step back to watch how the play went, they will see that Eru has created such a versatile script that though the characters deviate, the ending will be as Eru originally wrote it. In some cases a road-builder might fall off a cliff or an actor off the stage, but these instances are consequences of their own choices (or temporary blindness ). Eru never meant anyone to be hurt. But being a perfect gentleman, he lets them go or act the way they choose, yet allows them to find out what is beyond the paths they forged, or what their action's repercussions on the story or on their fellow actors are. Now this brings me to think, is the Men's freedom from the Music a reason for their greater divisiveness and, very loosely, their gullibility as opposed to the Elves? Is this why they are much easier to sway to the side of evil or why they seem to have more 'branches'? Because they have more roads to 'choose from' or more roles to 'assume'? Last edited by Lhunardawen; 07-14-2005 at 01:44 AM. |
07-14-2005, 02:13 AM | #16 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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Special freedom of man? Oh no, not again... ;)
I always argued (and this time, and this time and this time too) that Men's freedom is not different from that of other beings of free will while men are alive, their special kind of freedom being expressed in them 'leaving the confines of the world' upon their death, as opposed to Valar/Maiar/Elves who are 'bound within confines of the world' while it lasts
So, it's always choice of the fork of the road for the walker, and choice of play in accord with conduct or in disaccord with it for the musician in each respective analogy. Yes/No, Do/Don't. Traditioanlly, consider the following: Quote:
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07-14-2005, 02:36 AM | #17 |
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Point taken, HI.
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07-14-2005, 02:37 AM | #18 |
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Roads and stuff is all fine and dandy, but it really doesn't have anything to do with anything Saruman ever did, except maybe that time he met up with all the folks on his way to the Shire. I will try to make the situation as plain as I can. Saruman is an Ainu. That means he created the world. He made it with his singing. Specifically, he made all of the parts concerning him with his singing. While he lived in God's house he could sing and make decisions to his heart's content (that is just a metaphor, Ainur don't actually have hearts usually). While he was singing he generally followed (or rebelled from) the direction of God, so that while the particulars of what was going on were determined by him, the overall ebb and flow was guided by the hand of God. It is important to keep in mind that the dischord also followed a greater theme that nobody even realized was happening. All of that being said and taken into account (please take it into account before you read anymore), think of his singing as though he were writing a script of his future performance, when he left God's house and came into the world he had to go by that script until the end of it. The thing that most people don't realize about Angels, and it is a weird thing to think about, I admit, is that they are amazingly forgetful. So even though he sang all kinds of stuff he didnt remember most of it, and he wasn't paying attention to anybody else anyway. TO BE CONSCISE, SARUMAN HAD FREE WILL AT FIRST, BUT THAT STOPPED PRETTY QUICK. That is in caps because I want people to notice it more. The next part is too. GOD DOES WHAT HE WANTS AND DOESN'T HAVE TO ANSWER TO YOU. If you do not think it is a good idea for there to be naughty stuff in the world then that is too bad, because God thinks that it is awesome.
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07-14-2005, 03:32 AM | #19 | |
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[QUOTE=HerenIstarion]I always argued (and this time, and this time and this time too) that Men's freedom is not different from that of other beings of free will while men are alive, their special kind of freedom being expressed in them 'leaving the confines of the world' upon their death, as opposed to Valar/Maiar/Elves who are 'bound within confines of the world' while it lasts
QUOTE] But in Ainulindale it clearly states; Quote:
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07-14-2005, 04:45 AM | #20 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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davem, strong in arms you are, no doubt
But ther is also beyond in there, isn't it? As far as I see, it may be one of the two 1. Beyond - after the point the Vision ceased, thence the Valar have no knowledge (i.e. - after Fading of the Elves and as the Rule of Men begins) 2. Beyond - outside of the Music. But the Music is the pattern along which the whole World is shaped, so beyond the world would mean: A. Void B. Halls of Eru C. Whatever else there may be which we know not about. I hold to option 2 (weak point of option 1 - though Vision ceased before the completion of the Music, the Music itself contains all the history of the world. But when do men leave the world? When they die. Hence, reasoning: the special kind of freedom for men is their death. *** burra, Quote:
*** I believe I've found just another analogy to conciliate Predestination/Fate with Free Will: Imagine elementary particles - movement of each individual particle is unpredictable (Free Will), but all particles combined in a lump of given matter, cancel each other out so lump of matter remains stable and solid (Fate)
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07-14-2005, 11:05 AM | #21 |
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Yes, I very much agree with Heren on this. The above quote by davem says 'amid the... world' but 'beyond the Music'.
Perhaps it is like davem's road theory, but slightly different. Elves, Valar, Maiar, and all others have to follow the points that Eru has designed. They may take different paths to reach those points, but they still go to those places. Men are exactly the same in that respect. They have choices to make, forks to choose, but still come out where Eru planned. That would be 'amid the powers and chances of the world'. But the choices they make affect the hereafter. Each fork they choose is presumably either good or bad. Which one they choose will make them more good or more bad. Once they die, those choices that they make will determine what happens to them. They would at that time be outside the Music and would have chosen their own path beyond what the Valar sang. This would explain the 'shape their life,..., beyond the Music of the Ainur'. So men live exactly the same as all the other inhabitants of Middle-Earth, only that the choices they make affect their afterlife.
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07-14-2005, 12:08 PM | #22 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
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As regards Saruman - if he was bound by his decisions made during the Music why would Gandalf make such an effort to get him to repent at Isengard? Gandalf clearly believes that Saruman has the ablity to make choices about what road he would take, though not about the 'events' he has to experience - like dying in the Shire perhaps. Unless you believe that Gandalf also was bound by what he had 'sung' in the Music & had no free will either. This idea that everything - right down to the moral choices individuals made, even the thoughts they thought - was fixed, makes the whole story a nonsense, because nothing anyone did was a result of free will, & then how can anyone be held accountable after their death. What I'm suggesting is that Valar, Maiar & Elves have absolute moral freedom to make choicesabout how they live, but not about what they will experience - the Noldor will return to Middle-earth, & Feanor will die there in the way he did - but the way they come to those experiences will be a result of their own freely willed choices - hence they can be held accountable for their actions after they die. Men, on the other hand, are not (because they are not bound to the world in the same way) destined to have those pre-ordained experiences - they have both freedom of thought - as all other races have - & also the freedom to choose what experiences they will have, what events they will be caught up in - as Aragorn could choose whether to go on the paths of the Dead. But did Legolas have that choice? Was it in the Music that he would go that way? If so, what would he have done of Aragorn had chosen not to go that way? And what about Elladan & Ellrohir? Did the half-elven have the freedom of Men or were they bound by the Music to go? I think its pushing it to suggest that Men's freedom only comes into play after they die, because we don't know what, or even if anything at all, happens to Men after death. I think if you just read that sentence its plain that its refering to Men's freedom of action within the world, & that 'beyond' in that context doesn't mean beyond/outside Arda, but beyond/outside the plan the Music laid out by the Music: Quote:
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07-14-2005, 01:22 PM | #23 | ||||
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07-14-2005, 01:57 PM | #24 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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So, I don't think we're dealing with everything being foreordained down to the smallest detail, but with generalities & specific, unavoidable, events. Cerain things would happen, certain individuals were destined from eternity to do certain things, be in certain places, but, as I said, how & why they would get there would be down to them. And you also have to answer the really difficult question - maybe the Valar & Maiar were acting out their own part in the Music, but who set out the unavoidable fate of the Elves? That could only have been Eru Himself - & if he did that, & fix their fate in stone, then how could they be judged on their actions let alone on their moral choices? The Music determines the fate of Arda & the Elves, being bound to Arda are bound up with its fate. Men are not bound to Arda & it is this very fact that gives them the unique freedom to act that they have. Their link with Arda is temporary - they are in it but not of it, therefore its 'rules' (ie the Music) are not so binding on them - if they were they would not be 'mortal', they would not be able to leave it so 'easily'. It is the fact that they are mortal (the 'Gift of Death') that means that they have a freedom to act 'outside the 'rules'. (I notice that I seem to be at least in part responsible for an unaccustomed verbosity in our beloved Burrahobbit ) |
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07-15-2005, 01:36 AM | #25 | |||||||||||
Deadnight Chanter
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Part 1 (here we partly go along with davem)
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For me, that would mean that each individual is free in what they do, but whatever they actually choose to do, is incorporated into the whole texture of all events and taken into it to be in accordance with Eru's Will (see part 2 below) and to the Good ultimately. The each derivation of choice does alter the consequent chain of events, but if you look at each chain as a thread, and the world a carpet, derivation of pattern does not alter the existence of the carpet as such, or its ultimate purpose – to adore the wall over Eru’s hearth. (The last phrase being an exaggeration to an extent – equally real purpose of the ‘carpet’ is for each particle of it to be free, love Eru and be loved in return, as ‘of all His designs the issue must be for His Children's joy’ (AFaA)) It may seem that thus the freedom of individual will is rendered meaningless, but it is not so, as individual choice does matter for the chooser him/herself and the beauty of the carpet as a whole. Per instance: Quote:
Or to quote myself for just another analogy: Quote:
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Part 2 (where we part ways with davem) Quote:
Not to repeat myself way too often, please see the ruler analogy: Quote:
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1. In relation to the whole world, His Will is to have complete Arda Remade, by which the Fate is defined and is expressed through the Music. Whatever anyone does, there will be the Arda Remade (further EW1) 2. In relation to individuals, his Will is for them to accord to the qualities He has (Intelligence, Benevolence etc), i.e ‘be like Him’ (paragon - Men are instructed by Eru Himself till they turn their ear to Morgoth and are Fallen) (further EW2) No individual is able to disaccord with Eru’s Will 1, but each individual is free to disaccord with Eru’s Will 2. Dissacord with EW2 does not affect EW1, i.e. Fate (with capital F) = outcome of the Music = Arda Remade, but does affect the individual fate (ultimate disaccord with EW2 brings the creature into the Void, or, in case of Saruman (yes, I remember it’s the thread with Saruman there in the title), to be a ghost ‘dissolved by the wind’) But there is something else there too – whilst EW1 is broad and bendable, EW2 is strict – one either conforms to it or does not. I.e. any action may be ‘right’ in one way only – if it accords to EW2. Such a strict restriction does no leave room for ‘unique freedom’ (which seems implying some third alternative) – whatever Man or Elf does, is either right or wrong in relation to EW2, and the freedom comes down to choice inside the dichotomy. So, in such a roundabout way I come back to titilar topic, or Part 3: Treason of Isengard: Eru’s will? Having all the above in mind, it may be argued Saruman was acting in accordance with EW1, and thus indeed, it was Eru’s Will for Isengard to betray the Council and Free Peoples, for whatever is done, the flowing of time brings Arda Remade nearer, and thus Eru’s Will nearer completion, but on individual, EW2 level, Saruman was acting against Eru’s Will Does it sound like ‘do not ask elves, for they will say both yes and no’? I suppose so, but I have just another analogy, from ‘Was Eru A Sadist’ thread this time for you to ponder over: Quote:
Not to tire you and my own self any longer, let me repeat burra’s quote already given above, for it perfectly fits here, for the Part 3: Quote:
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07-15-2005, 04:03 AM | #26 |
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The simple explanation might well be that in ME everything happened for a reason, the reason being Eru's will. Consider the Ring: Bilbo was meant to find it, and Frodo was meant to be the one chosen to destroy it. Hence why not extend this further by saying Saruman was meant to become a Traitor, ultimately to the ruin of Isengard AND Mordor? The problem I have with that is that it would be cruel of Eru to plan the Downfall of Saruman like this, that is unless the plan was made after Saruman turned to evil ways whilst he was still part of the Council, even before Bilbo found the Ring.
Or is that just too simple a way to look at it? The posts on this topic are getting very complicated, so a more simple way of explaining things is given here. |
07-15-2005, 04:14 AM | #27 | |||
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More words means you are more wrong.
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07-15-2005, 04:19 AM | #28 |
Hidden Spirit
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Congratulations, Mansun, you figured it out. You win a cookie. Re: the second half, you gotta break a few eggs to make an omlette.
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07-15-2005, 05:40 AM | #29 | |||
Deadnight Chanter
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retardedly playful I find myself
Well, burra, let's see what we can do with your attitude:
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But all of the above is exercise in free modeling, just so. As seen from my previous, my own position is as follows: Quote:
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07-15-2005, 06:13 AM | #30 | ||
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Can you prove, or offer any evidence at all, that Turin was bound by the Music? It seems to me that Men's freedom to act 'beyond' (ie 'outside') the Music while in the World is a function or direct consequence of their mortaility - their fea is not bound to their hroa in the way that an Elf's is. This means that they will die eventually because the union of spirit & matter in them is a temporary thing, but it also means that they are not bound to the matter of Arda (& hence to the 'Rules') as completely. This, it seems to me, is the only way to account for the statement in Ainulindale - as well as being the only explanation for a 'good' God giving death as a 'gift' to Men - its purpose was bound up with the gift of freedom within the world. (Expecting a statement like 'You are amazingly and fundamentally wrong',made with no back up, to be accepted as part of a rational argument is a bit like me saying 'You are amazingly and fundamentally a horse.' & expecting that to be accepted in the same way. I think we have to be able to offer some reason for our statements) |
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07-15-2005, 07:57 AM | #31 | |
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Burrahobbit is that a complement or an insult? If its the latter, I'd have you know that I have a degree from a world class english university in Biochemistry. |
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07-15-2005, 08:15 AM | #32 |
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Whether it is evident or not of one's Knowledge of ME's history, you should still respect one's opinion, rather than sounding like Lobelia!
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07-15-2005, 11:40 AM | #33 | |||||
Hidden Spirit
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I don't see how such an ardent pacifist (a decision which he is morally and spiritually free to make) could ever be killed by balrogs in the Hither Lands.
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What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? |
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07-15-2005, 12:03 PM | #34 |
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So... is Feanor's death a part of the Music?
That is apparently what the question, with regards to that specific debate, would appear to be. It has been suggested that the Fate of the Music is a "broad" guide and not a detail-determiner. If such is the case, then just HOW defined is the Fate that it forecasts? It could well be that Feanor's Fate had nothing to do with his death. Perhaps his part in the grand scheme of Arda was merely the fashioning of the Silmarils and the preservation thereby of the Sacred Light. If that is the case, then it does it matter if Feanor dies or not? His "fate" done, his part in the great scheme played, he could do anything. His death at the hands of the Balrogs is a direct consequence of his decision to leave Valinor, but was it fated? He COULD have stayed behind, and the Noldor have never left Valinor. Perhaps, then, he would have died in the War of Wrath, or perhaps he would have survived and gone home to wait until the day when the Silmarils were to be cracked open- which, by the way, would appear to another part of his fate, that at the end of time he will break open the Silmarils and rekindle the Two Trees. The Devil's Advocate, ~Michael A. Joosten - Formendacil~
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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07-15-2005, 12:11 PM | #35 | |
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The Expositor Chases His Tail...
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Cheers! Lyta
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“…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.” |
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07-15-2005, 12:25 PM | #36 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
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07-15-2005, 12:40 PM | #37 | |
Hidden Spirit
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What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? |
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07-15-2005, 02:20 PM | #38 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Also, the cosmology of Middle-earth is not deterministic - it would be if Men did not exist, but they do, & they can act outside the Music - 'which is as fate to all things else'. Eru did not say that 'none may change the Music' - He said 'none may change the Music in My despite'. Men's 'gift' is the freedom to change the Music - within the bounds set by Eru - & those 'bounds' are not the Music per se, but the bounds He sets. Only Men have this freedom. Men are what stop Arda from being a deterministic universe - that's their purpose.
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 07-15-2005 at 02:29 PM. |
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07-16-2005, 01:42 AM | #39 | |
Hidden Spirit
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[quuote]As an Elf/Valar/Maiar you have moral freedom to the extent that you may not be able to choose what you do but you can choose how you do it.[/quote]
That doesn't make any kind of sense. I'm going back to my Feanor as pacifist argument. Quote:
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What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? |
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07-16-2005, 05:25 AM | #40 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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Where it gets interesting is that, because Men may alter the Music (with Eru's consent) then if Men do alter it, & Valar, Maiar & Elves are bound by it, Men are actually more 'powerful' than they are. Their 'freedom' would be limited not simply by the original Music, but by the (Eru permitted) changes introduced into the Music by Men.... |
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