Luthien & Galadriel

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Okay, the primary power of the Three Elven rings is to arrest change & decay but it is also stated that it greatly enhanced the natural powers of its bearers. Now, Galadriel, being described as an almost equal to Feanor (Unfinished Tales) and an already mighty & commanding stature when she was in Valinor... when she wears the Nenya, obviously she will become more powerful so would it suffice that she would level to the might of Luthien (who is half ainur) if not of Melian while wearing Nenya?

[Saurreg]

Don't know. Can't tell. Tolkien never devsied a power-o-meter to gauge the potency if his characters. However I should think there is a considerable difference between the power of Illuvatar's Children and that of the Ainur.

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

I agree that the difference in power between a Maia or even half-Maia and an Elda is probably more significant than most people seem to think. And besides, the Elves of the Third Age needed Rings to reach that kind of power whereas the Maiar.. well.. ended up with Rings also. A few of them. But I think my point still stands.

And anyway, Lúthien's already beaten Galadriel to the Most-Joy-and-Most-Sorrow thing, and the Only-One-to-Ever-Move-Mandos thing...

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Luthien_ Tinuviel

I agree that the difference in power between a Maia or even half-Maia and an Elda is probably more significant than most people seem to think. And besides, the Elves of the Third Age needed Rings to reach that kind of power whereas the Maiar.. well.. ended up with Rings also. A few of them. But I think my point still stands.

And anyway, Lúthien's already beaten Galadriel to the Most-Joy-and-Most-Sorrow thing, and the Only-One-to-Ever-Move-Mandos thing...

Well I'm not talking about that. Remember that even the Elda can surpass the maiars (i.e. Feanor, Fingolfin). And Galadriel was melian's pupil & even before she came to ME, she was already accounted among the greatest in Valinor, even coming close to Feanor's stature.

[Mithalwen]

I really don't think it is a fair comparison. But I may be prejudiced because I have never found Luthien anything like as interesting as Galadriel. And Beren never really appealed - especially as I blame him for FInrod the beloved's death ...

We don't really see Galadriel try her power when the Eldar were at their peak in the elder days and by the time of LOTR, Galadriel had borne a child which depleted the strength of Elf women. Nevertheless she is undoubtedly the most inherently powerful of the ELdar remaining with or without the ring and I would say at least's Gandalf's equal before his encounter with the Balrog. With the ring she has the strength to repel all but Sauron himself and she is able to cast down Dol Guldur even after the RIng is destroyed.

Think of the power GLorfindel had - able to drive teh Nazgul into the river more or less unaided by the power within him - and Galadriel was surely more powerful than he in her own right...

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Well I'm not talking about that. Remember that even the Elda can surpass the maiars (i.e. Feanor, Fingolfin). And Galadriel was melian's pupil & even before she came to ME, she was already accounted among the greatest in Valinor, even coming close to Feanor's stature.

Yeah.
I think that Galadriel didn't really possess the kind of power Luthien had--although I'm pretty sure a few very gifted Elves could surpass the Maiar... look at Feanor... he made the Silmarilli... did the Maiar make their own light gems and stuff? Anyway, if Curufinwe/Feanaro was able to surpass the Maiar in those things, I'm pretty sure Galadriel has surpassed Luthien in that...

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I really don't think it is a fair comparison. But I may be prejudiced because I have never found Luthien anything like as interesting as Galadriel. And Beren never really appealed - especially as I blame him for FInrod the beloved's death ...

We don't really see Galadriel try her power when the Eldar were at their peak in the elder days and by the time of LOTR, Galadriel had borne a child which depleted the strength of Elf women. Nevertheless she is undoubtedly the most inherently powerful of the ELdar remaining with or without the ring and I would say at least's Gandalf's equal before his encounter with the Balrog. With the ring she has the strength to repel all but Sauron himself and she is able to cast down Dol Guldur even after the RIng is destroyed.

Think of the power GLorfindel had - able to drive teh Nazgul into the river more or less unaided by the power within him - and Galadriel was surely more powerful than he in her own right...

Yes... I seem to think so because she was quoted to be the greatest of Elven women, that would mean Luthien was removed from the picture because she became a mortal. But you see, before Luthien surrendered her immortality, she was on par (or almost) with Sauron during their confrontation at Tol Sirion & she also tore down it's walla & laid bare its pits. Same thing with Galadriel. I don't believe Sauron could've taken over Lothlorien or Galadriel so long as she had Nenya without Sauron's One Ring.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

IWe don't really see Galadriel try her power when the Eldar were at their peak in the elder days and by the time of LOTR, Galadriel had borne a child which depleted the strength of Elf women. Nevertheless she is undoubtedly the most inherently powerful of the ELdar remaining with or without the ring and I would say at least's Gandalf's equal before his encounter with the Balrog. With the ring she has the strength to repel all but Sauron himself and she is able to cast down Dol Guldur even after the RIng is destroyed.

Think of the power GLorfindel had - able to drive teh Nazgul into the river more or less unaided by the power within him - and Galadriel was surely more powerful than he in her own right...

Just a quick question, Mithalwen, as I must be on 'thick' today, but are you suggesting that childbirth diminished the strength of elven women? Is this stated somewhere in one of Tolkien's more recondite revisionary texts or are you making this deduction from what you have read?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Just a quick question, Mithalwen, as I must be on 'thick' today, but are you suggesting that childbirth diminished the strength of elven women? Is this stated somewhere in one of Tolkien's more recondite revisionary texts or are you making this deduction from what you have read?

Found this in 'Laws & Customs among the Eldar' (Morgoth's Ring)

Also the Eldar say that in the begetting, & still more in the bearing of children, greater share & strength of their being, in mind & body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children. For these reasons it came to pass that the eldar brought forth fewer children;....

&

Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi (Elven women) fought valiantly, & there was less difference in strength & speed between elven-men & elven-women that had not borne child than is seen amongst mortals.

There may be other references to the way childbearing dimishes the strength of elven-women but that's all a quick search has turned up.

[Nimrodel_9]

Think of the power GLorfindel had - able to drive teh Nazgul into the river more or less unaided by the power within him - and Galadriel was surely more powerful than he in her own right...

I never thought of that before. So if Galadriel was so powerful I wonder why she didn't do more?

[Formendacil]

I believe that it is impossible for Galadriel to have equalled Luthien, even if she had "Feanorian" powers and Nenya. My reason?

Elrond.

Elrond is clearly shown in the Lord of the Rings to be Galadriel's peer. They have their "specialties", sure enough, but overall they are comparable. In some ways, Elrond is clearly the superior.

While it is true that Elrond bears Vilya, said to be the greatest of the Three Rings, I highly doubt that the difference in Ring-Power would make him Galadriel's equal, if she is of "Feanorian" power.

The reason lies in his descent from Luthien. Tolkien refers to the lineage of Luthien in Elros' descendents as being the key to their "divine"-like status- not their royalty or Elven blood. In addition, note this quote from "The Houses of Healing":

Aragorn went first to Faramir, and then to the Lady Eowyn, and last to Merry. When he had looked on the faces of the sick, and seen their hurts he sighed. 'Here I must put forth all such power and skill as is given to me,' he said. 'Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greatest power.'

Elrond's power is clearly tied to being much older than Aragorn, and the power is obviously from their joint lineage, a lineage in which Luthien figures most prominently, and to which Tolkien refers most often. Tolkien refers to Luthien more than any other First Age ancestor in connection to Aragorn than any other in his Letters- including Earendil.

Now, if Luthien's great-grandson is such a powerful figure based on her blood, and if her blood is still shaping the lives of her descendents as far down as Aragorn, then I would say that it's quite unlikely Galadriel was her equal, Nenya or no Nenya.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I believe that it is impossible for Galadriel to have equalled Luthien, even if she had "Feanorian" powers and Nenya. My reason?

Elrond.

Elrond is clearly shown in the Lord of the Rings to be Galadriel's peer. They have their "specialties", sure enough, but overall they are comparable. In some ways, Elrond is clearly the superior.

While it is true that Elrond bears Vilya, said to be the greatest of the Three Rings, I highly doubt that the difference in Ring-Power would make him Galadriel's equal, if she is of "Feanorian" power.

The reason lies in his descent from Luthien. Tolkien refers to the lineage of Luthien in Elros' descendents as being the key to their "divine"-like status- not their royalty or Elven blood. In addition, note this quote from "The Houses of Healing":



Elrond's power is clearly tied to being much older than Aragorn, and the power is obviously from their joint lineage, a lineage in which Luthien figures most prominently, and to which Tolkien refers most often. Tolkien refers to Luthien more than any other First Age ancestor in connection to Aragorn than any other in his Letters- including Earendil.

Now, if Luthien's great-grandson is such a powerful figure based on her blood, and if her blood is still shaping the lives of her descendents as far down as Aragorn, then I would say that it's quite unlikely Galadriel was her equal, Nenya or no Nenya.

In no way is Elrond equal to Galadriel. Peer perhaps but not her equal. Galadriel is often described as Feanor's rival, if not her equal. She was a match for both athletes & lore masters. Finrod Felegund, her brother, was even able to go toe-to-toe with Sauron who barely won only because Finrod was under the doom of Mandos, as are all the Noldor. Galadriel being greater than Finrod, this she can do also. Her stature in Valinor was already noteworthy even before she left for ME. She fought valiantyl against the host of Feanor at the slaying of Alqualonde. I've never heard of Luthien doing hand-to-hand combat. For these great eldars, especially Feanor have come very near to rival a maia. Now, Luhtien has a 1/2 divine DNA but what does it mean for Galadriel who was accounted the greatest of elven women, to study in the tutelage of Melian for many years? Now Gandalf/galadriel has clearly stated that the elven rings give power according to the measure of the wearer, & it's quite obvious that Galadriel is far greater than Elrond (though he had Vilya, check out Lady G's effects). She knew Sauron's mind... not many of "wise" had this dominion over the greatest of the maiar. Nenya clearly enhanced her natural talents in many folds.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

In no way is Elrond equal to Galadriel. Peer perhaps but not her equal. Galadriel is often described as Feanor's rival, if not her equal.

And here your thesis begins to crumble... Galadriel is only described thus late in Tolkien's life, at a time when he was also saying that Celeborn was a Valinorean Teler, in contradiction of his canonical status in the LotR and Appendices. So your source is slightly suspect.

But setting that aside, how does being Feanor's equal make Galadriel Luthien's equal? As a half-Maia, Luthien is neither more a "Child of Eru" or more an Ainur, and thus would appear to be exempt from any "Greatest of the Children of Iluvatar" status claims.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

She was a match for both athletes & lore masters. Finrod Felegund, her brother, was even able to go toe-to-toe with Sauron who barely won only because Finrod was under the doom of Mandos, as are all the Noldor. Galadriel being greater than Finrod, this she can do also.

Are you forgetting that Luthien actually bested Finrod's claim not long after. She had Sauron by the throat, and if she hadn't been as kind-hearted as she was, there would never have been a Ring for Frodo to destroy...

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Her stature in Valinor was already noteworthy even before she left for ME. She fought valiantyl against the host of Feanor at the slaying of Alqualonde. I've never heard of Luthien doing hand-to-hand combat.

Hand to hand combat? That's what we base greatness and power on?

I direct your attention to Faramir's little discourse in "The Window on the West":

'Yet now, if the Rohirrim have grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with the memory of other things. For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both as a sport and as an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days. So even was my brother, Boromir: a man of prowess, and for that he was accounted the best man in Gondor.

T'would seem to me that you are much like these "falling" men of Gondor, putting martial skill above all else. And I would agree with Faramir that such is a sign of fading.

And one can't put it down to bravery, because bravery can be exhibited without fighting. Luthien's entire story of braving Tol Sirion and Angband is a story of courage.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

For these great eldars, especially Feanor have come very near to rival a maia.

Again, I don't know that I believe this statement. Feanor was great, yes, and with a mind and spirit to rival no other, but that does not mean that his raw power was any more than that of a Maia. Nowhere does it say that at all.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Now, Luhtien has a 1/2 divine DNA but what does it mean for Galadriel who was accounted the greatest of elven women, to study in the tutelage of Melian for many years? Now Gandalf/galadriel has clearly stated that the elven rings give power according to the measure of the wearer, & it's quite obvious that Galadriel is far greater than Elrond (though he had Vilya, check out Lady G's effects). She knew Sauron's mind... not many of "wise" had this dominion over the greatest of the maiar. Nenya clearly enhanced her natural talents in many folds.

In the entire LotR, whenever Elrond and Galadriel are together, they are shown as being equals. You admit to them being peers. Well, that is tantamout to admitting that they are equals. In Gondor, on the road to the Redhorn Pass, and coming to Grey Havens, whenever they are together, they are shown as being equals. Celeborn gets no such treatment. He is shown as being his wife's equal partner, but we never see him getting the same sort of comparisons as Elrond and Gandalf (who IS a Maiar...)

As I said, Elrond and Galadriel had their fields of study. Galadriel is seen to be extremely proficient in mind-reading, but she clearly does not have great skill at healing- a skill which Elrond appears to practice with greater talent than any other in Middle-earth.

Galadriel is a great person, yes. But to put her over Luthien... that's a bit of a stretch.

I would support the view that there is a huge abyss between the powers of Galadriel and those of Luthien.

Luthien is the result of the only true union of Eru's Ainur with the hroa of Arda. She is attuned to the Living Flame in a way that no Child of Iluvatar is. And a way that even no Ainu is.

Elven "magics" or powers seem to be silent and subtle and slow. The greatest actual physical feat Finrod performed was bursting his chains; this took all of his strength. The rest of the battle between Finrod and Sauron was vocal; Finrod was defeated in mind, not in body. Elves can resist change and disease, and the Calaquendi can fend against the servants of the Enemy. They can see into the hidden places, and hide things from thought. But few examples can I think of where their exhibited powers transcend the realm of thought and communication into explosive reality. This is not to say that they cannot affect the physical world with their powers; surely, Elrond cured Frodo's wounds. But wasn't a great part of Frodo's wounding in his mind - a sickness, a sliver of despair? The old wound hurts when he feels grim. Elrond did more to his mind than to his body.

But to be of Maia-blood? There are no half-Maia other than Luthien. There are no Maia described performing the actions Luthien performed. The words she spoke rang true within the nature of the world itself. It is my personal belief that in sheer "power" in Middle-earth, she surpassed even the true Maiar. A perfect person, if you like. It appears reality changed on her whim, with such an authority did she sing. Even Melkor fell before her onslaught, for a time.

Galadriel might hold Lothlorien safe with merely her mind; she might have survived many a war and made many a weighty decision. She may have many Elven subtleties; her kindred may have defeated Maiar in battle. But this does not mean that she is any kind of match for the stature of Luthien. Luthien is completely unique, while Galadriel is ... well, simply a favoured one of the house of Finwe.

When the Great Rings enhanced the "natural powers" of their bearers, I didnt consider this to mean "natural power". I believed it meant that their actual feats of prophesy, of farsight, of defence, of preparation, would be increased in potency, by virtue of the inherent abilities of the Rings. This would not allow them to simply go off and conquer the world of darkness, as Luthien was able. (In actuality, the creation of the Rings - to my mind at least - lessened the powers of their creators. This done, of course, to improve other skills that required less power and more finesse.)

As to the actual power-levels involved... I forget the quote, but Mandos or Manwe warned Feanor that even if he were thrice what he was, he should still not hope to defeat Melkor in power and stature. Yet Luthien defeated Melkor, for a time - literally defeated him with sheer skill and strength and desperation. This is not like Hurin's defiance, who simply had the steadfast resilience to retain his will; this is not like Fingolfin's dazzling combat display, who came to the Dark Enemy bearing arms. Luthien overcame his mind. Coming to his presence a subordinate. Does this not make her more than Feanor, in stature and sheer power? Perhaps it was only because of her singular style of approach to Melkor that she won though - although I dont personally believe it I believe Luthien was blessed.

Galadriel and Co. are probably much more interesting characters because of their flaws, but Luthien definitely takes the power-biscuit. In a fashion, her powers much more resemble those of Wizards than those of Elves. She moulds the very substance of Arda itself, rather than changing the varied perceptions of Arda that sentient beings hold.

It has just occured to me that the Istari and Luthien have much in common. Luthien, the union of Ainu with Elf; the Istari were Ainur enclosed within the hroa of Men....
<Goes off to ponder this last point>

[Mithalwen]

I have to disagree with Formendacil. I do think that Galdriel was inherently more powerful than Elrond but I think the comparison is to an extent pointless because the nature of their power is so different. While Elrond is descended from Luthien, (and I am not sure that the Maia thing is so significant because Melian had to "become" an elf ot bear a child..but this has been argued elsewhere...) he is also descended from men. Also Galadriel had been born in the blessed realm and seen the light of the two trees. I adore Elrond, he is one of my favourite characters. He is certainly the most learned, and the most noble and humanitarian. Since elves have little need for healing, I regard the fact that Elrond specialised in this a manifestation of his great concern for the mortals of Middle Earth. He always does the right thing regardless of personal cost. His many sufferings have not made him bitter. He is a warrior who takes no delight in killing. He is altogether most admirable. However if push came to shove, I would take Galadriel as my champion... because as well as being older & valinor born she has got a far more cunning mind.... and sneaky is useful .

That said I think the distinctions are fine. It is certainly clear that it not all Maiar were more powerful than all Eldar. Some Elves are clearly more than matches for some Maiar... think of all those Eldar slaying balrogs. While you might argue that Saruman and Gandalf might have the edge on Elrond and Galadriel ... I doubt anyone would place Radagast ahead of them......

And ... can you really imagine Galadriel being imprisoned by anyone for a second?

I guess I find the tale of Luthien annoying because so much of her power is associated with her beauty and she uses her power for selfish means - in order to marry Beren, who to borrow a phrase is "so wet you could shoot snipe of him". And this causes death of Finrod. Needless to say I also find Arwen annoying....

[Anguirel]

Well...like many others, I like Galadriel more as a character. And in a way, I think that power is, ultimately, what is of importance, or what should be. The Vala (or whatever the feminisation is) Nessa is far more powerful than Galadriel or Luthien, for instance, but because she does nothing other than dance through some stars, and, more importantly, does not reveal to us any sort of character, we cannot regard her as much.

Luthien surpasses Galadriel in terms of deeds by some distance; but Galadriel's character is arguably Tolkien's most fascinating and complex, which Luthien's is not, apparently, as compelling. It has potential, vast potential to be framed on her deeds, but it is not fully formed.

And, as a sideline, I must defend Beren from Mith's strident charge of wetness. He seems a bit drippy because his girlfriend is far more "powerful" in terms of puissance than he is. But on his own level, his deeds are unparallelled-in the attempt far more than in the accomplishment, but that should be the nature of true heroism. I admire Beren's hopeless stand in Dorthonion, for instance, far more than the return voyage of Earendil. He shows tremendous resolve, courage, and sheer stubbornness. He is not my sort of hero at all, but I am forced to admit his greatness in moments like his defiance of Thingol.

"I have earned such names from no elf, be he King or no."

In all, I would say Beren is more powerful than Luthien in the same way that Galadriel is-the way we, the readers, accept them. This seems to me far more important than weighing quarts of Maia blood against inches of pretty hair, or some other such nonsense.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm sorry but I feel I must spoil Galadriel-fest here.

Galadriel was 'doing stuff' with Nenya. She was using it to preserve Lothlorien and doing a fair job in keeping Sauron's servants out. But that's pretty much all. She couldn't stop the Orcs from entering her land, could she? She wasn't that powerful with Nenya.

As for Glorfindel (and Aragorn) with the Nazgul, the Nazgul are only ghosts anyway. Why should a mighty Elf-lord be afraid of them? Aragorn himself was doing a pretty good job of fighting off those undead rogues! To compare the Nazgul with the Maiar (which was suggested if not explicitly set out) is laughable.

So Galadriel might well be more powerful than the Glorfindel who chased away the Nazgul, but she's still nowhere near what Luthien was, even with an Elven Ring of Power. Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar (undoubtedly the greatest Elf) and is by far greater than Galadriel ever could have been.

Mith, doesn't Tolkien say somewhere that Elrond's mixed ancestry (Elves and Men) makes him greater than other Elves and Men?

[daeron]

Luthien's power came from a far greater source, love. Not that I am a romance novelist or something, but I believe love gives a reason to focus the inherent power more than anything else.

But that aside, I think there should be no comparison, Luthien was half Maia. But to put the great Morgoth to sleep says something. One must remember that though Sauron was mighty in the first age, he was far greater at the end of the second age, having mastered the lores of Aule in his exile , having learnt a lot from the elves and the forging of the rings of power. Denying death to man as he did for the Nazgul, proves the point.


Also, I think the ability of elves of Middle Earth declined as the ages passed. Those of the third age were considerably weakend in mind and body, especially those who wielded the rings of power. They longed more to return to Valinor, and I believe began to consider Middle Earth as only a temporary residence. So we cannot exactly blame Galadriel for not waging a one on one combat with sauron as Luthien did.


There was also the fact that Nenya guarded lorien and her presence was required just as Melian's was to keep the girdle intact. Considering Luthien's accomplishments one does wonder whether Melian herself could not have achieved more, probably Morgoth's overthrow itself.

Galadriel could not risk exposing Lorien which was dearer to her than probably Valinor itself. She was proud and considered herself a ruler here which she would not have been in Valinor.


Melian did not overthrow Morgoth, nay not even Sauron. Fate had not decreed a combat between them. As it did not between Galadriel and Sauron. Luthien's confrontation was but a 'chance meeting as we say in Middle Earth.' Had not luthien let Sauron go, there would not have been losses of hundreds of thousands of lives in later ages. So is greater kindness an evil, one can only hope not.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by daeron

But that aside, I think there should be no comparison, Luthien was half Maia. But to put the great Morgoth to sleep says something. One must remember that though Sauron was mighty in the first age, he was far greater at the end of the second age, having mastered the lores of Aule in his exile , having learnt a lot from the elves and the forging of the rings of power. Denying death to man as he did for the Nazgul, proves the point.

Sauron was of Aule's kin BEFORE he worked with Morgoth, not after, just for the record. Although I would agree that Sauron appears to have worked on his abilities somewhat between his defeat at Luthien's hands and his re-emergence as Dark Lord II.

Originally Posted by daeron

Also, I think the ability of elves of Middle Earth declined as the ages passed. Those of the third age were considerably weakend in mind and body, especially those who wielded the rings of power. They longed more to return to Valinor, and I believe began to consider Middle Earth as only a temporary residence. So we cannot exactly blame Galadriel for not waging a one on one combat with sauron as Luthien did.

Ah... But what about in the Second Age, when the Rings were new, and Galadriel dared not use hers out of fear, and Elves were still a force to be reckoned with? Elrond and Celeborn were fighting on the forefront of battle, but Galadriel... She was in Lindon, doing very little.

Or during the Last Alliance, when the Ring-situation was similar, but Sauron was weaker? Still no Galadriel... Just Gil-galad and Elrond and Cirdan... And if Gil-galad managed to chop Sauron into itty-bitty pieces with the help of a 'mere' man, then surely the 'great' Galadriel could have done more.

I say we can blame her!

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

While Elrond is descended from Luthien, (and I am not sure that the Maia thing is so significant because Melian had to "become" an elf ot bear a child..but this has been argued elsewhere...) he is also descended from men.

And Men are less than Elves?

As a general race, I would agree that the average Man would seem to have less power than the average Elf, but there are many exceptions to the rule.

Indeed, as Beren, Hurin, Turin, and Tuor (and pretty much all the Numenoreans) will show, all that Men need to match or beat their Elven kin is the training. And even then, for all that they are short-lived, they can still absorb so much as to make a permanent mark.

If it wasn't for mortality, the Elves' days would have been numbered MUCH sooner...

PS: Glad to hear you're an Elrond fan, Mith. I'm a big Elrond-fan (books that is), and much prefer him over Galadriel- for many of the reasons you mentioned.

[daeron]

I also wonder what power Arwen would wield being both a descendent of Luthien and the grand daughter of Galadriel. She didn't take part in the War of the Ring.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I'm sorry but I feel I must spoil Galadriel-fest here.

Galadriel was 'doing stuff' with Nenya. She was using it to preserve Lothlorien and doing a fair job in keeping Sauron's servants out. But that's pretty much all. She couldn't stop the Orcs from entering her land, could she? She wasn't that powerful with Nenya.

As for Glorfindel (and Aragorn) with the Nazgul, the Nazgul are only ghosts anyway. Why should a mighty Elf-lord be afraid of them? Aragorn himself was doing a pretty good job of fighting off those undead rogues! To compare the Nazgul with the Maiar (which was suggested if not explicitly set out) is laughable.


Mith, doesn't Tolkien say somewhere that Elrond's mixed ancestry (Elves and Men) makes him greater than other Elves and Men?

#
Well I think you are wrong so laugh away.....
The orcs only penetrated the edges of lorien - they would not have been able to enter it's heart.

Nazgul "are only ghosts " yeah right.. the witch king just says "boo"....

And I would say that becasue Galadriel had more inherent power it was more dangerous for her to use the ring...

As for Luthien ... well say what you like, Gally is just more interesting... blondes have more fun...........

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Maiar: Very powerful.

Nazgul: Not very powerful.


Galadriel was more powerful than any Ringwraith but this is hardly enough to argue that she's going to come anywhere near Luthien.

[Mithalwen]

Eomer your argument is overly simplistic - their is a wide continuum of power among the maiar.

And Luthien is not a Maiar................ and I still loathe her....

[davem]

Surely the 'power' of the Maiar comes principally from knowledge - or perhaps 'gnosis' - they were the offspring of Eru's thought & took part in the Music. Therefore the question is one of 'mind' over 'matter'. They were different in essence to the Eruhini. Their power over the stuff of Arda comes from their helping in its creation & thus from their knowledge of its nature. The fact that a hroa is not part of their nature, whereas it is for the Eruhini, displays a mastery over it that none of the Eruhini have. Maiar can exist without bodies (nobody drag Melkor into this, please!), Elves & Men cannot.

Where does this leave Luthien? From her father she gained the nature of the Eldar, from her mother, something else. We have to remember that when she first appeared (BoLT) the incarnate Ainur married & had children, so Luthien's birth was not that unusual. By the 'end' we have a situation where the only Ainur to have a child was Melian.

In short, while Galadriel may have reached the greatest 'height' possible for one of the Eruhini, Luthien, by her very nature, had inherited the 'divinity' of her mother. Her 'power' comes from her nature, which is unique, coming, through Melian, almost directly from the mind of Eru. We don't know what either of them were capable of - we only know what they did.

Luthien is long gone, having passed beyond the circles of the world. In herself she embodied the tri-partate nature of Ainur, Eldar & Atani. No-one, before or since had done that - her decendants retained a strain of all three created races because of her. Galadriel did little in comparison - however much she contributed in the fight against Sauron. Through Luthien the 'Maian' spirit entered into mankind, even down to the Fourth Age & beyond.

I'd put Luthien ahead of Galadriel for that reason alone. If 'power' has anything to do with affecting the world, changing the present & the future, Luthien must be supreme.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

This is a pretty straightforward topic. Galadriel does not come close to Luthien, even with Nenya.

Mith, how could you loathe Luthien? She did only good and she did no bad. She was as close to perfection as an earthly being could be. Surely only Melkor and his disciples could loathe such good!

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

This is a pretty straightforward topic. Galadriel does not come close to Luthien, even with Nenya.

Mith, how could you loathe Luthien? She did only good and she did no bad. She was as close to perfection as an earthly being could be. Surely only Melkor and his disciples could loathe such good!

Plus Luthien danced exquisitely, eh Eomer. Oh, and, she was hott. I don't seem to recall Celeborn having Beren-like feelings.

[Anguirel]

Gentlemen prefer blondes. And weirdly eloquent, probably cursed galvorn swords prefer haughty silver-blondes.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Yeah but Celeborn had thousands of years to grow accustomed to Gala's beauty. Beren was in the glorious infatuation stage.

Luthien had it all, yes? Ah, Luthien and Beren; inspiring envy in everyone for millenia!

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Are you forgetting that Luthien actually bested Finrod's claim not long after. She had Sauron by the throat, and if she hadn't been as kind-hearted as she was, there would never have been a Ring for Frodo to destroy...

And are you forgetting that she had Sauron by the throat only because she had Huan at her side. It was Huan who couldn't be bested by prophecy. Morgoth was a dumb *** & allowed his lust to cloud his judgement. Sauron on the other hand was more cunning than his master & recognized Luthien for what she is. Had Huan been absent, Sauron would've slapped her silly. She may have sent Morgoth to lala land but that was a careless invite on his part.
Galadriel may not have done something dramatic as she had but she was someone to be reckoned with. Tolkien, again described her as the "greatest of elven women". Sure Luthien injected a divine substance to men but it continued only because of Galadriel who gave birth to Celebrian who in turn gave birth to Evenstar who chose a similar fate to Luthien. I'm not suggesting that she's greater than her, but perhaps atleast on the same league. And how can the elves be diminished in mind & body when the Three Elven rings brought healing & halt of weariness? It's even more absurd to say that the weilders themselves have been more diminished because they longed for the sea. Only Galadriel had this longing & in no way did it affect her native might. Perhaps, by the power of Nenya, she foresaw the fall of Sauron only by the means that she must give up her ring of power & this made all the more enthused to go home.

[Thinlómien]

I'll put now my word on the topic.

Galadriel and Lúthien can't be compared. Not only because Lúthien is half-"divine" and Galadriel is "just" an elf. The other reason is that their power is quite different. Lúthien's powers are more in "personal level"; her powers have great effects in eye-against-eye -combat or in things considering herself: she makes Morgoth fall asleep, she drives Sauron away, she moves Mandos, she grows her hair by a spell, she's absolutely charming... See? All her "spells" or powers concentrate on a single enemy or on herself.
Galadriel (with Nenya) has smaller, but larger-scale effects. She ensafes Lórien and protects it by her and the ring's magic. She can see future, past and present (with her mirror). She is "an affecting world power", if I can say so.

And one more thing that came into my mind: Galadriel may seem more powerful, because she is more powerful due to her environment. In the Third Age (when she's in the height of her powers, mostly because Nenya) the most powerful being is Sauron, who's a maia. When Lúthien lives the most powerful being in M-E + Beleriand is Morgoth, who's a vala. And in Lúthiens times there are more powerful people, fg. elves are generally more powerful.

[Lalwendë]

Galadriel in the Middle earth of the Third Age is incredibly powerful because she is a 'big fish in a small pond'. She has sought power throughout her time in Middle earth, and eventually has come to set up her own realm, an enclave which she rules. She had the Elessar given to her by Celebrimbor, who then created something of even greater power, Nenya, as a gift to impress her. His gifts to her are each more powerful than the last, and he does this in the hope of winning her love (seemingly) by giving her more and more power.

We do not know to what levels of strength the Elves in the Undying Lands have grown while Galadriel is in exile, but we must assume that due to her exile she is in some way less than they are. Eru's intention is for the Elves to all live in the Undying Lands, and this is seen as natural for them - as seen in how they are reborn in the Halls of Mandos and to refuse this is considered wrong. In addition, she was one of those who left the Undying Lands to go to Middle earth, which was also a wrongdoing. Galadriel has willingly removed herself from the land where she is supposed to be, and therefore has done wrong so cannot be seen as 'good' as her kin who did not leave.

When she says that she will 'diminish' and return, she is saying that she will give up the power she has achieved in Middle earth and she will go back to the place where she will not be a ruler, a leader, someone of immense power. She will go back to the place where she is just one amongst many.

I don't know where this places her in terms of 'power' compared to Luthien, but then I think in Tolkien's world it is more about qualities than power. After all, we see how a humble Hobbit can destroy something supposedly more powerful. Is it more a question of who had the greater status?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I find the idea of Galadriel as a "big fish in a small pond" very appropriate, Lalwendë! However, I'm not sure I agree with this statement:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Eru's intention is for the Elves to all live in the Undying Lands

Originally, the Elves were created to live in Middle-earth, just as Men were. There have been previous discussions on the decision of the Valar to bring them to the Undying Lands - was it unwise? If anything, I would say that Eru intended for them to remove to the Undying Lands after death. However, that is not the same thing as being "intended to live" there.

I too think that Lúthien's innate power, quality, and/or status, whichever way it's worded, puts her above Galadriel. However, Galadriel developed and strengthened the power she had and put it to the best use. That sounds a bit like the debates over the relative importance of inner characteristics and/or outer influences in what we become. The answer, as so often, is "both".

[daeron]

Luthien was selfish. Galadriel was not.
Atleast Luthien wouln't have done anything if foolish old Beren had not got himself in that sticky situation. And dragging Finrod too.

[davem]

This 'power' thing is a difficult question if it's limited to a question of 'force'. Certainly, there is an 'enhancement' of innate power which comes from having once dwelt in the Undying Lands - as we see with Glorfindel, who had seen the Two Trees: the Light of Aman was in his face.

Galadriel had also seen the Light of the Trees & the Light of Aman would have been in her face as well, & that Light was Holy, & evil things could not stand before it. However, unlike Glorfindel, Galadriel had never passed to Mandos to be purified of her sin in the Rebellion, so she would probably not have had his innate power sans Nenya.

Luthien, on the other hand, was the daughter of a Maiar, but had not dwelt in the West, or seen the Light of the Trees - though her father had.

More interesting, I think, is the fact that in the end, both Luthien & Galadriel reject power: Luthien chooses mortality, Galadriel to 'diminish'. Power is clearly not the be all & end all for either of them. Luthien chooses love (& mortality) over power & Galadriel to 'diminish' & go into the West, where rather than an absolute monarch she will become merely a returning penitent seeking forgiveness.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

According to daeron, Luthien was selfish and Galadriel was not.

But:

Luthien gave up everything she had for her lover.

Galadriel disobeyed the Valar because she wanted her own lands.

I'll just go and look up 'selfish' in the dictionary...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

More interesting, I think, is the fact that in the end, both Luthien & Galadriel reject power: Luthien chooses mortality, Galadriel to 'diminish'. Power is clearly not the be all & end all for either of them. Luthien chooses love (& mortality) over power & Galadriel to 'diminish' & go into the West, where rather than an absolute monarch she will become merely a returning penitent seeking forgiveness.

I just have to say that I think davem has put the question in a most appropriate way, to consider what definition of power is best applicable. If we consider the context of LotR and its attitude towards power, then I think we see that its is moral authority that is validated. Even amongst the warriors themselves, it is Aragorn's growth towards wisdom which gives him authority, just as it is Boromir's contrition which gives him his stature, even as he lays dying. Power in this context is the power over one's self, a personal control of the will, rather than the ability to dominate or control others.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Esty

Originally, the Elves were created to live in Middle-earth, just as Men were. There have been previous discussions on the decision of the Valar to bring them to the Undying Lands - was it unwise? If anything, I would say that Eru intended for them to remove to the Undying Lands after death. However, that is not the same thing as being "intended to live" there.

I am making my assumption based on the Valar summoning the Elves to the Undying Lands - they are asked to go there, and those who do not are portrayed as having less Light, as different. This to me implies that they are somewhat lower in status amongst Elves. In addition, they are expected to remain in the Undying Lands after death/rebirth:

Originally Posted by HoME X

The fea is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authority, and is imperative; yet it may be refused.

Originally Posted by HoME X

Indeed the refusal of the summons is in itself a taint.

I wonder, if it is seen as correct that a fea should return to the Undying Lands, then should it not also be seen as correct that the living Elf ought to live there too, or at least, that this is the place where they can flourish. Once reborn, Elves are not permitted to return to Middle earth, and Glorfindel is the only example I can think of who was permitted to do this after the change of the world, suggesting that even if they did want to return to Middle earth they may have been prevented from doing so. As I say, this is how I have come to my assumption.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

If we consider the context of LotR and its attitude towards power, then I think we see that its is moral authority that is validated.

This 'power' that each character had, whether it was innate or learned/acquired, was used in different ways, but ultimately with the same results, i.e. both rejected that power. Luthien's power seems to be more innate, and what drives her to use it is love - is that selfish or self-less? Galadriel's power is enhanced, and she uses it strategically. We could also ask the same question about her use of power. That neither use it for committing evil deeds speaks volumes abut their characters; both of these characters could have put that power to use for immense personal gain. Instead, Luthien uses hers for the sake of Beren and Galadriel for the sake of Middle earth.

It might be interesting to compare Galadriel with Saruman, who also has great innate power, enhanced by his learning, but who does follow the temptation set before him, and ultimately his power is his downfall. Galadriel rejects the temptation - she shows the moral authority which Bethberry has noted.

So again, without drawing any conclusions on which character is the 'greatest' , it shows that both have even greater power as shown in that they can also reject their power when it is no longer needed.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Galadriel had also seen the Light of the Trees & the Light of Aman would have been in her face as well, & that Light was Holy, & evil things could not stand before it. However, unlike Glorfindel, Galadriel had never passed to Mandos to be purified of her sin in the Rebellion, so she would probably not have had his innate power sans Nenya.

I think you are wrong in this. The light of Aman was not the power booster of the Calaquendi. I dunno you meant that in a literal sense. it was the mere presence of the Valar that enhanced the Elves because they were taught & instructed, thus they grew in skill & might compared to those who remained in ME. And also, the reincarnation of Glorfindel was only a lesser version of his former 1st age self. he wasn't as potent as he was in the 1st age. He was able to take down a Balrog before but in the 3rd age, he lets the ring wraiths go unchallenged (of course, Frodo was in emeregency at this point). So she was still greater than he & she already had a commanding stature even before shge left Aman.

We do not know to what levels of strength the Elves in the Undying Lands have grown while Galadriel is in exile, but we must assume that due to her exile she is in some way less than they are.

I doubt there were any new "developments" in the eldar of Valinor while she was in Exile. True strength & power grow & increase from troubled times. Valinor at this point have already sent the Istari so they're all pretty much peachy & dandy without a care in the world. Like the kiss-butt Vanyar who feast & sing before the Valars' thrones. On the other hand , the eldar who remained in Me have been fighting a loosing battle but none the less growing in might. The Three elven rings were the greatest (on par w/ the silmarills IMO) creation of the elves & unlike the Silmarills (mere hallowed ornaments), they could be utilized directly for the nenefit of the eldar. Tolkien has said that she was greatest ('cept for Feanor maybe) & although she was exiled, the rings of power certainly halted for a while the Doom of Mandos & the rustic fading of the Eldar. She herself did not swear an oath so the curse was not as cruel to her as it was to other great eldars of her time. And remember how much a ring of power can even permanently enhance someone such as Frodo (who began to percieve things more clearly than the wise). How much more for her who was mighty & endowed with a powerful ring? She might've seen many things in the future & grown more wise than asny other elf so I doubt she went back to Valinor as a "lesser" version than what she was. Quite the contrary in fact.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

I think you are wrong in this. The light of Aman was not the power booster of the Calaquendi. I dunno you meant that in a literal sense. it was the mere presence of the Valar that enhanced the Elves because they were taught & instructed, thus they grew in skill & might compared to those who remained in ME. And also, the reincarnation of Glorfindel was only a lesser version of his former 1st age self. he wasn't as potent as he was in the 1st age. He was able to take down a Balrog before but in the 3rd age, he lets the ring wraiths go unchallenged (of course, Frodo was in emeregency at this point). So she was still greater than he & she already had a commanding stature even before shge left Aman.

I'd have to refer you to Flieger's 'Splintered Light' for a full analysis of Light in Tolkien's works & the way it fragments & becomes weaker over time. Suffice to say that Calaquendi (Elves of the Light) & Moriquendi Elves of the Darkness are more than merely shorthand titles. I don't think Glorfindel redux is a 'lesser' version of his old self. His mere presence is enough to drive off the Nazgul, & what is central to his 'presence' there is the Light which emanates from him (which Frodo sees in his near wraith state. In the First Age Glorfindel was under the Doom of the Noldor, & like Finrod he was spiritually & morally weakened by that. On his return, after having passed through Mandos, he was 'renewed' - he was as he had been before the Revolt, an Elf of the Light. The High Elves were of a different order, not simply in terms of intellect & physical prowess, but in terms of 'spirituality', & that spirituality was a consequence of their living in the Light of Aman, which shone in their faces. When Gandalf talks of 'the power that is in him' I don't think he was referring to Glorfindel's strength or smarts, but of something of a wholy different order. On his return to Middle-earth he was, in a sense the Elven equivalent of a Gandalf the Whiite, purged, purified, once more a Calaquendi.

Why send him back otherwise - what use would he have been if he was no more 'potent' a force than any of the Elves currently living in M-e? No, I think the 'power that is in him' was the Light of Aman. And I suspect that he could well have done to the Balrog what Gandalf did, if it had come to a confrontation, because that wasn't a battle where victory depended on physical strength or intellect, but on the power of 'Light', the Secret Fire, overcoming darkness (the 'Dark Fire').

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by davem

I'd have to refer you to Flieger's 'Splintered Light' for a full analysis of Light in Tolkien's works & the way it fragments & becomes weaker over time. Suffice to say that Calaquendi (Elves of the Light) & Moriquendi Elves of the Darkness are more than merely shorthand titles. I don't think Glorfindel redux is a 'lesser' version of his old self. His mere presence is enough to drive off the Nazgul, & what is central to his 'presence' there is the Light which emanates from him (which Frodo sees in his near wraith state. In the First Age Glorfindel was under the Doom of the Noldor, & like Finrod he was spiritually & morally weakened by that. On his return, after having passed through Mandos, he was 'renewed' - he was as he had been before the Revolt, an Elf of the Light. The High Elves were of a different order, not simply in terms of intellect & physical prowess, but in terms of 'spirituality', & that spirituality was a consequence of their living in the Light of Aman, which shone in their faces. When Gandalf talks of 'the power that is in him' I don't think he was referring to Glorfindel's strength or smarts, but of something of a wholy different order. On his return to Middle-earth he was, in a sense the Elven equivalent of a Gandalf the Whiite, purged, purified, once more a Calaquendi.

Why send him back otherwise - what use would he have been if he was no more 'potent' a force than any of the Elves currently living in M-e? No, I think the 'power that is in him' was the Light of Aman. And I suspect that he could well have done to the Balrog what Gandalf did, if it had come to a confrontation, because that wasn't a battle where victory depended on physical strength or intellect, but on the power of 'Light', the Secret Fire, overcoming darkness (the 'Dark Fire').

Can you gimme the link for this "Fleiger's splinetred light"? thanks.