New dudes and dudettes: Most annoying things about LOTR.

[Assasin]

Hi, fellow new dudes. I hope you had your coffee today, cause I don't like people like me that have bad moods. (I don't really have bad moods, most of the time, anyway.) I want to meet some dudes, so PLEASE write a reply.
I think all the little comments that Legolas makes are annoying, he states the obvious. And, I think ents are annoying, because they always tell hobbits to shut up unless they have something worth while to say, and I like saying stuff that's not worth while.

[Neithan]

I don't find anything about the books annoying and I love the Ents (myself not being one for pointless small talk and yet sometimes being longwinded, especially when talking about Tolkien). Anyway, to you and any other newcomers, welcome to the Downs I am sure you will love it here. I was never one for forums or anything that involved social interaction until I joined a month or so ago and now I spend most of my time here.

[Finwe-89]

Plz do not double post ( I don't think that is aloud, well on other forums it isn't). And I don't think Ents are annoying they are cool, ok cool is a big word, but I love them

[Child of the 7th Age]

First, I think we need to be careful about keeping this thread on topic.

Secondly, Assasin I have a question about your original post:

I think all the little comments that Legolas makes are annoying, he states the obvious.

Are you thinking of the movie or the book? Movie Legalos did have some annoying lines, but I can't think of anything like this with book Legalos.
Could you give us some examples, both of your problems with Legalos and with the Ents? It would be easier and more productive, I think, to respond to some specifc examples.

Thanks.

[Assasin]

Okie dokie! I am talking about the movies. Ex. Treebeard: Don't be hasty!
and all the time he said that nothing is worth saying unless it's worth taking a long time to say. They really changed all of the characters in the movies. Bormir wasn't so mean in FOTR.

[Neithan]

Ah well the movie did screw up on a lot of characters, Legolas being one of the bigger ones. But I don't think they were far off with Borimir, Faramir yes but not Boromir. Elrond was the one that really annoyed me though.

[Assasin]

Yah. Faramir didn't even try to take the ring in the book.

[TomBrady12]

I do agree that in the movie Legolas did have some pretty lame lines. For example when he and Aragorn are standing outside the Golden Hall, and Pippin is messing with the Palantir. "He is here" in a fake sounding British accent which just sounded weird to me. Not to complain too much, I loved the movies, but there were little things like that that annoyed me slightly. Of course the glaring changes like Aragorn falling off the cliff, and Faramirs bringing Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath were annoying as well, but thats another matter.

[luthien-elvenprincess]

Ex. Treebeard: Don't be hasty! and all the time he said that nothing is worth saying unless it's worth taking a long time to say.

I love the ents. From what I understand, the ents manner of blustery speaking was a private joke. Tolkien meant the ents style of speaking to mimic his good friend C.S. Lewis. Since I love C.S. Lewis' writings, I can't help but like the way the ents speak. It helps me feel that I know Lewis a little better.

[Assasin]

I agree, Tom. But it's kinda weird that he said it with a fake British accent when he's a Brit himself.

[TomBrady12]

You know, thats a very good point. I stand corrected.

[Essex]

Hello Assasin, defender of the movies here.

1/ re

Bormir wasn't so mean in FOTR.

You see, I think he WAS (if you mean FOTR the book?) And it took the movies to make me realise this when I re-read the books again last year. I can now see Book Boromir's petulance, and also his animosity towards Aragorn (but this is also reciprocated by Aragorn). It's fascinating what you pick up after watching the movies that gives a different light on the books, and makes you see them from a different angle sometimes.

2/ re

Faramir didn't even try to take the ring in the book.

Neither did Film Faramir. He attempted to bring Frodo back to Minas Tirith. In the book he WAS tempted to take the ring. And what was one of the major reasons why he did not? It was his WORD. He said he would not tkae the Enemy's weapon if it were lying by the road, BEFORE he knew what it was. WHen Sam gives the game away, he is tempted, oh yes, but he says himself he is held by his Word.

Off on a tangent time now - I don't agree with the detour to Osgiliath, but a detour is all it was. Film faramir, like book faramir, finally realises he needs to let Frodo go, and he does. Yes, I know we also see the Nazgul here, but as Jackson says in the commentary, he transposed the scene with the WK leaving Minas Morgul here, and Faramir shoots down the Nazgul to stop another Plot Hole developing (in my opinion).

[gorthaur_cruel]

In the book he WAS tempted to take the ring. And what was one of the major reasons why he did not? It was his WORD. He said he would not tkae the Enemy's weapon if it were lying by the road, BEFORE he knew what it was. WHen Sam gives the game away, he is tempted, oh yes, but he says himself he is held by his Word.

No, he wasn't. I suggest you re-read the passage.

'...Not if I found it on the highway would I take it I said. Even if I were such a man as to desire this thing, and even though I knew not clearly what this thing was when I spoke, still I should take those words as a vow, and be held by them.
'But I am not such a man. Or I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a mn must flee. Sit at peace! And be comforted, Samwise...

Faramir's saying that he wouldn't take the Ring whether he desired it or not. If he desired it, he wouldn't take it because of his vow. If he didn't desire it, he wouldn't take it because...he doesn't desire it. And the first sentence of the second paragraph makes it clear that he is the latter.

[Essex]

gorthaur, have a re-read of this bit yourself.

'So it seems,' said Faramir, slowly and very softly, with a strange smile. `So that is the answer to all the riddles! The One Ring that was thought to have perished from the world. And Boromir tried to take it by force? And you escaped? And ran all the way – to me! And here in the wild I have you: two halflings, and a host of men at my call, and the Ring of Rings. A pretty stroke of fortune! A chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor, to show his quality! Ha!' He stood up, very tall and stern, his grey eyes glinting.

you think he was just having a laugh saying this? like Sam later on, he was tempted, but managed to beat this temptation.

there is a lot more to Faramir's character than just a Wizard's pet. He is a master interrogator, a leader of men, a noble prince, from the blood of numenor, but still human after all and thus tempted by the Ring.

Also, as you have shown in the quote you posted, Faramir also insinuates that he was tempted.

'But I am not such a man. Or I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee.

What he is implying in the second sentence is that he is tempted, but is wise enough to leave well alone. Just like his tutor Gandalf earlier in Bag End and in the Council of Elrond.

[Neithan]

What he is implying in the second sentence is that he is tempted, but is wise enough to leave well alone.

And in the movie he was not so wise, which is the whole point behind this argument. It is not fair to Faramir's character to have him foolishly try to bring the Ring to his father and only do the right thing later when the book charcter was wise enough to know the right thing from the start.

[Essex]

yes, they build on this temptation I admit which causes the day trip to osgiliath. I did not say I liked or agreed with this scene, it's just that it's a detour and that's all. (and I've explained the point about the nazgul)

Another line from Faramir that shows he knows the peril of the ring,

I do not wish to see it, or touch it, or know more of it than I know (which is enough), lest peril perchance waylay me and I fall lower in the test than Frodo son of Drogo

In the book we had the advantage of a lot of dialouge before hand that helped sway Faramir's decision. in movie land we do not have this advantage. the faramir scenes, to me, are one of the best written dialouges in the whole trilogy. The way Faramir is a master interrogator, and finally gets what he wants from Sam is a masterful piece of writing.

If lotr was filmes as a mini series, then I would love to see these scenes acted out (as they were somewhat in Brian Sibley's radio adaptation). but in an action movie made for the masses, alas we do not have this.

[Boromir88]

I don't find Faramir taking the ring to Osgiliath to make much of a difference. TTT EE explains Faramir a lot better and the reasons behind taking the ring to Osgiliath. And in the end he does make the decision by himself to let Frodo go. So, I don't see a big problem with that scene (besides the ringwraith).

For most of the things PJ gives an explanation for (check the appendices) and I find them quite reasonable.

[gorthaur_cruel]

A matter of interpretation, I guess. I always took this quote:

'But I am not such a man. Or I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee.

to be what I said it was. He says that he is wise enough to flee from certain perils, which shows that overall, he doesn't want the Ring.

The thing you're describing is merely that Faramir, of course, has a desire of the Ring, but forget to mention that his rejection is bigger than his desire. Thus, he is not 'tempted'. It's as if you were asked if you'd be given a large chunk of gold in exchange for being blind and deaf for the rest of your life. You'd want the gold, but you'd not have the gold if it means losing your sight and hearing. You don't have to think twice about it; you don't want it. In that way, Faramir is not tempted by the Ring; overall, he doesn't want the Ring.

Still, I can see how you can see it the other way. Like I said, a matter of interpretation. But even if movie Faramir was tempted to take the Ring, it was only for a split second. And in another attempt to flatten out and 'humanize' all the characters, Faramir falls to the temptation for quite a long time. What makes him different from Boromir? After all, he repents too, in the end.

...and Faramir's supposed to be one of Tolkien's favorite characters.

[Assasin]

I think the main reason Faramir was tempted for that moment, was because he wanted his father's love. His father wanted Boromir to get the Ring, he failed, so Faramir could prove better, and thus, win his love.

[Finwe-89]

Faramir was acting stupid. He respected his father... He didn't had to respect him! Denethor only really loved Boromir, cause Boromir was older and protected Osgiliath against Mordor. Denethor said only bad things about Faramir, but Faramir wanted that his father would think better about him. If I were Faramir... I should left my father for what he is... a men that has a heart of stone...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It's the strangest thing. I remember this discussion from so many other threads...

Didn't anyone find it annoying that Sauron was an eyeball?

Or that Gimli was a comedy character?

Or that the Balrog had wings!

[Neithan]

Yes Eomer all of these things annoyed me. Though I can hardly criticize PJ for the Balrog wings since it is not proven either way (at least not conclusively). Still I was somewhat disappointed with the Balrog. Much worse are the other things you mentioned. It is the gaping plot holes and the misrepresentation of certain characters (like Gimli and Faramir) that gets me. But all of these things have been talked about so much. One that I don't think gets mentioned enough is Elrond, there is definitely a difference between the two versions of him.

[Assasin]

Eomer, whenever I see the Eye I always think about eye drop commercials. It is rather annoying, I want to know how he can "talk" if he's just an eye ball, or does the Mouth of Sauron carry around a microphone and speakers? I think the balrog had added scariness with the wings. It kind of spread his fiery evilness all around.

The thing that most annoyed me was the cheap breaking of Gandalf's staff in ROTK, other than that I did not appreciate the humor between Legolas and Gimli in the movie, such as in TTT at helms deep Legolas asked gimili wants a crate to stand on so he can see whats happening.

[Assasin]

Ya, the stuff between Gimli and Leggy got a little over the top.

[Celebuial]

I think that for a movie audience you need some comic relief in a "long heavy film(as I've heard it described)", so I think that P-J had good reason for all the Legolas Gimli jokes. Anyway if there wasn't any of that in the movies then Legolas and Gimli's relationship would've just been ignored! I think what you see in the film is better than no portrayal of it at all.

[Boromir88]

I wasn't too bothered about the flaming eye. Until it started blinking, in ROTK, and came with a spotlight.

As for the Faramir/Denethor issue...

Originally posted by Finwe:
Faramir was acting stupid. He respected his father... He didn't had to respect him! Denethor only really loved Boromir, cause Boromir was older and protected Osgiliath against Mordor. Denethor said only bad things about Faramir, but Faramir wanted that his father would think better about him. If I were Faramir... I should left my father for what he is... a men that has a heart of stone...

Faramir has always wanted his Father's approval, in the movies they draw this out bigger then in the books (by taking Frodo to Osgiliath). But, even in the books Faramir wished his father appreciated him like Boromir. I think it's safe to say that you don't feel the same way, as Faramir does towards Denethor, so I'm finding it difficult to judge how you think Faramir acts stupid.

Don't forget the lines of Gandalf..."Your father loves you Faramir. (whisper) He'll remember it in the end."

I think if the times were different, and there was no evil for Gondor to fight, Denethor would have loved Faramir and not Boromir. Faramir was extremely like his father, a capable sword wielder, but their talents are towards lore and thinking. Boromir is the complete opposite, forget about thinking, he throws himself into battle whenever he gets the chance. A reason for Denethor's strong approval of Boromir was because Gondor was at war, and that's what Denethor thought Gondor needed. He thought they needed more "Boromir's," so to say, and wishes that his son was like his brother. If Gondor was in peace? Well, then it would be hard to tell, there would be no use for Boromir, no battles to fight, so Denethor might have liked Faramir better; if Gondor was in different circumstances.

It's safe to say no matter how many Boromir's Gondor had, they had no hope of beating Sauron, but Denethor thought they needed warriors like Boromir to win.

[Finwe-89]

Yes, I agree with you Boromir88, but I'm talking about the Faramir in the movies. He was acting stupid in the movies. Denethor did love him but didn't show it ( I forgot to say that in my older post). So Faramir most have thought that his father didn't love him. And there is the stupid part! If you think your father doesn't love you, then leave him. Don't go and try to be like some one else ( Boromir ). Faramir risked his own life to get his father respect and love, now that's stupid.

[Lalaith]

The problem I think lies in the change in Denethor between the book and the film.
Book Denethor, if you remember, is very like Faramir in personality "the blood of Westernesse runs almost pure in their veins." In Boromir it does not. So Faramir has a close affinity with his pa, despite the latter's preference for the robust man of action Boromir.
The Denethor of the film did not have any of the decayed nobility of the book character, which I agree does make Faramir's devotion rather odd. Furthermore, in the EE of the film, they saw fit to have Gandalf say that Denethor was like Boromir and unlike Faramir, in direct contradiction to what Tolkien said in the book. Way to go, PJ...

[ohtatyaro]

Several things, but most of all, probably, hyenas. I mean, wargs are wolves, just fell and clever, but not hyenas.

Some other things too. Aragorn scared to fight. Or scared is a too strong a word. Hesitant. that's it.

Gollum setting up Sam, also. I mean, Frodo believing Sam was a traitor, not Gollum trying to set him up.

Denethor chewing cherries, while there is a battle outside. I loathe that scene. It makes Denethor horrible, and in the books I liked him and was sorry when he died.

Merry and Pippin taken on a trip accidentally, just becuase they happened to be stealing maggots carrots and stumbled upon Frodo. If I haven't read about how they were friends with Frodo in the book, I would be thinkig something like 'what did these two asked for trouble for?' Who asked them to come at all? And then, in elrond's place, they are all eager to come. Ah, another scene - when they run into the secret council.

But on the whole, I liked the movies

[Finwe-89]

In every movies there are annoying things, so I think that this topic is useless on the other hand. Cause this will be a disscussion that will never end ( not that I don't like it )

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Celebuial

I think that for a movie audience you need some comic relief in a "long heavy film(as I've heard it described)", so I think that P-J had good reason for all the Legolas Gimli jokes. Anyway if there wasn't any of that in the movies then Legolas and Gimli's relationship would've just been ignored! I think what you see in the film is better than no portrayal of it at all.

Maybe so; however I liked the Legolas/Gimli connection seen briefly in FOTR EE where Gimli recounts the gift given to him by Legolas (who smiles). Their relationship could have had a few less comic (dare I say 'more serious' ?) moments.

And the "She-Elf" line is at the top of my list. I accepted Arwen taking He-Hobbit Frodo's place at the Fords, but come on...the Nazgul seemed silly thereafter.

[Boromir88]

Denethor chewing cherries, while there is a battle outside. I loathe that scene. It makes Denethor horrible, and in the books I liked him and was sorry when he died.

Nice point Ohta...I'm fine with making Denethor look like a raving lunatic, it goes to show Gondor needs a king and stresses the return of Aragorn, but the whole eating scene is inappropriate. PJ got his point across, Denethor is a crazy man in his deep decline, but you have to make him have no manners and be an absolute slob too?

Finwe, maybe both of us are looking at this the wrong way, something that I've been thinking....Maybe, Faramir wasn't doing it for Denethor, maybe he was doing it for Boromir? This is something that is mentioned in the books, and is brought out brilliantly in TTT EE, the relationship between Boromir and Faramir. So, maybe he's doing this because it's what his brother would have wanted him to do (fight to save Gondor) and not because he wants to please his father? I admit this is a little hard to prove, if I even can, since Faramir does seem to ride to Osgiliath to win the approval of his father. But maybe he's doing it because that's what Boromir would have wanted him to do?

[Laitoste]

I must say that the most annoying part of the movies is when they cut away from Eowyn and the Witch King and focus on Aragorn. I get all into the scene, and then they go somewhere else! But I want to know what happens! Now I have to get emotionally invested into another, somewhat unrelated, scene. Argh. Aragorn's arrival at the Pelennor is not nearly as dramatic as it could be. I don't think any explanation was provided, either.

[Boromir88]

Aragorn's arrival at the Pelennor is not nearly as dramatic as it could be. I don't think any explanation was provided, either.

It's a Deus Ex Machina, latin for "God of the machines." When directors are stuck trying to solve a plot conflict they bring in supernatural beings (often from a godlike figure) to solve it. It's a rather sloppy way of ending something if you are stuck. Don't know why they didn't add in the men from Lebennin, maybe PJ thought it would be too confusing if Aragorn all of a sudden appeared with Men on the ship.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's a Deus Ex Machina, latin for "God of the machines." When directors are stuck trying to solve a plot conflict they bring in supernatural beings (often from a godlike figure) to solve it.

Not that Tolkien would ever have dreamed of using such a technique ...

[Boromir88]

Not that Tolkien would ever have dreamed of using such a technique ...

Tolkien is a strong religious man that incorporates religion throughout his writings. Jackson just threw in the Army of the Dead to simplify things.

Also, Tolkien backs up his instances. One, these supernatural creatures are not the main cause for saving the day. Eagles are in control of Manwe, and help out when they feel like it. Army of the Dead just wanted to stop being cursed. Two, in the instant of Eru still caring about Middle-earth and destroying the ring....I'm assuming since Tolkien wrote in that one moment, when Frodo has to choose between destroying the ring, or claiming it, is when the ring is it's strongest and doubted whether anyone would be able to throw it in. So, how does he destroy it? Adds in help from the godlike figure.

Many critics of Tolkien criticize him for that. Using those reasons of Deus Ex Machina to say he's a bad writer. I don't agree with them, but everyone likes different stlyes. All I can say is with Tolkien it's something that we should expect, being a man with religious background, as well as a Mythology lover. Jackson added in the AotD for a quick solution, and to not have an audience (besides the bookfans) wonder, where did all these men come from?

Lastly, on the screen it appears much differently. Again, it feels rushed and sloppy. It's like, we're stuck, we don't want people to be confused about where these men showed up, so lets just have these ghosts wipe out the rest.

When reading, you can't say "The eagles saved the day on the Morannon," you can't say "The Army of the Dead saved the day on Pelennor." You can say "Eru saved Middle-earth," and is indeed a Deus Ex Machina, but the Mount Doom chapter is far from rushed.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, I was being half-flippant. There is a basis for arguing that Tolkien does not use Deus ex Machina at all, or at least that he uses it in a credible and therefore justifiable manner. Here's an interesting thread with some further discussion on the issue:

Deus ex Machina

Obviously, Jackson has carte blanche to use the Army of the Dead, as they are in the book. And, as in the book, their use is foreshadowed by Aragorn and co's journey through the Paths of the Dead, so they do not simply appear unannounced (which is, on one view, a requirement of a "Deus ex Machina"). To simplify things, he included them in the Pelennor. I have no problem with that per se. But I have some sympathy with the criticism based on the manner in which they are used. They are simply too destructive, so that they end up winning the battle and saving the day, rather than the men of Rohan and Gondor.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Don't know why they didn't add in the men from Lebennin, maybe PJ thought it would be too confusing if Aragorn all of a sudden appeared with Men on the ship.

How hard would it have been to include 'slaves' on the ships (show one prototype like Kevin Sorbo aka "Hercules" from the TV show) that after the attack of the AotD are suddenly (in the next shot) in control of the ships, and follow behind Aragorn etc when they de-boat at the harbor? It could be twenty ex-slaves, yet it would show that Aragorn was gathering people (humans) together wherever he went. The Undead could still go about with their green blob attack.

PJ even could have included another 'crisis' moment where Aragorn wonders if he would be in time, where he even takes a hand at the oars then Legolas could have said something funny about Gimli's beard. We get Gothmog, Lurtz etc but no Halbarad, Forlong etc.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by alatar

We get Gothmog, Lurtz etc but no Halbarad, Forlong etc.

Man, that just annoys the heck out of me! Where are the Gondorian (and Arnorian) secondary characters!?!?

I could care less about whether the orcs have a field commander suffering from Reckinghausen's disease, or a lieutenant with a skull on his head. I wanted to see Imrahil, Beregond and Halbarad!!