Passing over the sea

[Thranduil]

As we all know, when Elves tire of Middle Earth, they sail away....Where exactly do they go? What's it like? I imagine it would kind of be like Heaven; no death, no pain, everyone's happy, etc. Comment on what YOU think it's like.

Second, I know men are not allowed to sail there (the Numenorians tried, due to Sauron, and they were destroyed); but couldn't men be invited to go? Gimli, Frodo, Gandalf, and Bilbo got too; there must of been others rihgt? Like after the Last Alliance. Maybe some distinguished themselves in such away and were invited to come with the elves (or while distinguishing themselves they were hurt so bad the elves took pity on them and let them go as well). Or maybe in the case of elf/human marriages. An elf wouldn't want to see his/her spouse die and live on, or if the elf still wanted to stay awhile longer in Middle Earth and sent the mortal spouse ahead.

Of course, there would be a flip side. You'd probably never age over there otherwise Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli are gonna be too old to day anything; elves wouldn't decieve them like that. And most people don't wanna live forever as being too old, so a human would have to go over there as soon as possible. For the good of the mortal spouse, the elf may have had to send the human away as quickly as possible. Sure, the married people may have to be apart for a few centuries, but at least the human would get ot live forever.

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

I would like to comment on your second...well...comment. Gandalf was allowed to go back to the Blessed Realm because he himself was a maiar, only in human form. Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam got to go there because they were ring-bearers, or, more technically, FORMER ringbearers. And Gimli, I don't know whats up with that, but hey, im not complaining. And, in the case of Elf-Human marrages, the elf forsakes their immortality, so they are no longer elven really. And still they are gifted with life until all they have gained in being a human is lost. Just commenting.....Seeya [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Thranduil]

Good response, I valued your opinion.

But do elves have to give up their immortality? I mean Arwen did, and some others through the ages,but does it say specifically some where that elves have to do it (if so, I'm sorry and could you please point that part out).

Second, while yes, I know the Hobbitswere former ring-bearers, does that exclude people that have done other extroidinary feats? I mean, say some man saved Elrond's life at some point (just an idea), could Elrond give him the gift of being able to go over the seas?

Which brings me back to my first paragraph. If elves do have to forsake immortality, could the mortal get sent over the sea and then they get married there? Would it be possible?

I know Tolkien never really touched on these points, but for some reason I'm fascinated with them.

Again, thanks for the input...

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

I guess you could get married in the blessed realm, and I guess if Legolas could get a drawf over the sea, Elrond certanly could. You have an interesting point. And no, i am not wholly sure but i dont think it specifically says elves have to "Give Up" their immortality, but apparantly, since there were only three marriages through the ages, it is a big deal. And I think now that maybe since Eru the One gave the elves a gift of immortality, going to marry a human would cause their immortality to be taken. But, you do have an interesting point. -aylwen [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Mhoram]

Without getting too deep in detail...

When they sail west they go to another continent called Valinor. Just read the Silmarilion.

[Birdland]

That's right, Mhoram. They go to Valinor, the Ultimate Gated Community.

As for Men: Tuor, the husband of Idril, got to "cross over" and achieve immortality, as did his son, Eärendil, as reward for his aid in rescuing the Simaril. (Though later he became a star, and just had to float above it all. Bor-innggg!)

As for Frodo, Bilbo, and Samwise; the debate still goes on as to whether they achieved immortality, or were only allowed to go to an outlying island, there to find healing and live out their natural lifespans. It may have been the same with Gimli. Who knows? The Valar are really kinda fussy about these things.

[Thranduil]

Another good point, thank you.

But while the Valar are "fussy," I believe they're just (as in justice) and so would not force the ones who came over to go to an outlying island to live out their life (besides, then they wouldn't be with the elves).

Because also, the elves are fully aware that people can't just go to the Blessed Realm, so anyone who was allowed to go there must have done something important or else they wouldn't have been able to go.

Thank you again for your opinion/idea/understanding regarding the subject.

[Legolas]

Just as in the case of Tuor, it's not just anyone who does a good deed that gets a passport to Valinor.

Gandalf only appeared to be a man...he was a Maia (1) (a Maia is a servant of the Valar; the Istari [wizards] (2) were Maiar sent in the form of old men to aid the people of Middle-earth in their fight against Sauron) and lived in Valinor with the Valar long before he came to Middle-earth, thus being welcomed back without hesitation. His stay in Middle-earth was never intended to be permanent. He was also a ring-bearer, bearing one of the three Elvish rings of power.

The exceptions were made for Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam because of the extreme importance of their roles in the destruction of the One Ring. Sure, others did important things, but had they failed, all of Middle-earth would've fallen under Shadow.

Gimli was granted the oppurtunity for being such a good friend of Legolas and Galadriel, and because of his role in the Fellowship.

An important note, though, is that these four (Sam, Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli) were not granted immortality. They were simply allowed to travel to Valinor and reside there until their deaths.

Tolkien confirmed that they died after sailing to Valinor. It was explained in the thread titled 'What happened to Sam?' My reply, along with burra's, are really totally completely very undoubtedly conclusive. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Letter No. 154:

But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.
I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' – of free will, and leave the world.

More plainly, Letter No. 246

'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III 268) – not in Middle-earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him – if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.

There is no reason to believe that Sam, Bilbo, or Gimli would suffer a different fate.

Letter No. 325

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

1 - If you don't know what a Maiar is, read the first post of the uh.. wots a maiar ???/ thread.

2 - If you want more information on wizards, read the chapter in Unfinished Tales devoted to the Istari only. If you really can't wait and don't want the pleasure and excitement of reading about them the way they were intended to be discovered by the author, there are numerous threads you can read to get an accurate conception. Try a search. Here's one that's good... Wizards. Take note of the posts by Bruce and myself.

[ August 13, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Morgoth Bauglir]

gimli was allowed to go to valinor because he and galadriel were close and galadriel obtained this grace for him.

[Legolas]

You mean, like I showed in the quote from Letter 154? [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Thranduil]

Cool, thank you all. But a quick question:

Those letters that you posted, who were they from/who wrote them?

And then you mention that they'd choose to die "out of their own desire and free will." Doesn't that mean that they could keep living if they so wanted to; thus being immortal?

I'm not being nasty or calling you a liar, I just wanna know where the info. came from (like if it was from Tolkien's Unfinished Tales) so I could read it myself.

Thanks

[Legolas]

These 'letters' are written by Tolkien himself. They're published under the title of The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. Included are letters of correspondence to publishing companies, C.S. Lewis, Christopher Tolkien, other personal friends, and early fans who wrote Tolkien with questions about his world.

The part about their own desire would imply that there would come a point where the person knew it was time. As mortals, they would surely tire of life, not being used to immortality or the idea of it. You've heard of people knowing it was their 'time' to go? Same concept here, I believe.

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Thranduil]

And one last thing in regards to those letters.

Did Tolkien really mean those things, or were those just ideas he had?

And also, why couldn't the people be immortal? If Sauron could make people immortal (the Ring Wraiths for example through their rings), couldn't The Valar do that as well? That's kind of flaw that I think Tolkien would've caught if he would've had the chance to actually write a book explaining the Blessed Realm.

[Legolas]

Since these are ideas written after LOTR was finished, they are considered definitive. I can send you a Word document of the letters if you wish to review them on your own. The comments Tolkien made in the later letters were always in response to questions, so they were not merely his ideas (though it was all his idea - but not in that sense), but how he had decided Middle-earth were be, thus they are conclusive.

If you read some of the letters and the extent that Tolkien goes to in reguards to anything concerning his books, you'd know that this was no 'flaw.' The wraiths were not immortal. The One Ring would not last forever, and so, neither would the wraiths.

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Thranduil]

Cool, thanks Legolas.

So when mortals die, they go to their own "heaven" (or "hell," there's always two-sides to the coin)? If Tolkien never really covered this, that's ok; this question is open to a lot of speculation.

But this second one is even more difficult. Since elves live in both worlds (the physical and spirit), couldn't they logically interact with dead mortals?

If I come up with more questions like that, I'll be sure to post them [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Thranduil]

Also, when an elf dies, do they go to the Blessed Realm?

[Morgoth Bauglir]

are these letters mass produced or do they not publish them any longer?

[Ravenna]

If an elf is killed or dies of grief ; [/QUOTE]and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mando in Valinor, whence they may in time return.[/QUOTE]
Men however;

But the sons of men die indeed, and leave the world.

The above quotes from the Silmarilion would seem to indicate that elves and men cannot communicate after the human is dead, and that the elves do not know where the spirits of dead mortals go.
However the same passage also states that

Yet of old the Valar decalared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in theSecond Music of the Ainur; whereas Illuvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the worlsd end , and Melkor has not discovered it.

Implying to me that death is not quite so final for mortals as it would appear.

Hope this makes sense.

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Ravenna ]

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Ravenna ]

[Caradhras]

Hey ~
That is some really interesting information!!!! All this stuff is really cool! Laters~!

[Legolas]

Welcome, Thranduil.

When elves are slain or die of grief, their spirits go to Halls of Waiting where Mandos, the doomsman of the Valar, resides; there they are reincarnated and sent back to Middle-earth, or on to Valinor.

The elves awoke in the east of Middle-earth and were encouraged to make the journey back to Valinor where they could live with the Ainur and be protected from the evil of Morgoth. Many of the elves sailed across the sea far before the trilogy takes place. The elves don't have to die to go to the Blessed Realm. All they have to do is hop in a ship and start paddling.

Morgoth - the letters are still available in paperback as far as I know.

[ August 14, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Guildo]

wasnt there speculation of Dwarves after they die, some believed they returnd to the earth from wich they came other believed Lluvitar embraced them as his own in Mandos with the Men and Elves that die, isnt Mandos in Valinor.

[Legolas]

Dwarves believe their spirits will go on to Mandos' Hall of Waiting where a special place is designated for them where Aule will come for his people.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

But do elves have to give up their immortality? I mean Arwen did, and some others through the ages,but does it say specifically some where that elves have to do it (if so, I'm sorry and could you please point that part out).

Elves are never obliged to give up their immortality, but they may choose to do so if they so desire. Luthien becames mortal because after her death she requests that Mandos re-unite her with Beren, and Manwe, having "sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Iluvatar was revealed", offers her the choice to live in Valimar, where she could forget the griefs of her life, until the end of the world or to return to Middle-earth with Beren, but do so as a mortal and to share his fate after death.
Whilst not being obliged to make a personal request of the Valar, or to enter the Halls of Mandos, Arwen makes the same decision. She elects to share the fate of her husband so that death will not permanently separate them.

In each of these cases, immortality is something that is relinquished for love: eternal separation after death is something which the Elven-women find harder to accept than to pass beyond the circles of the world entirely, yet remain with the men that they have chosen.

For those of half-elven blood, whether to share the fate of Elves or of Men is one which they make for themselves, so that Elrond binds himself to the Firstborn, whereas his brother Elros elects the life of a Man, albeit one of greatly extended span.

Further to the point about those mortals who pass into the West: it is said in The Silmarillion:

...Manwe was grieved, seeing a cloud gather on the noon-tide of Numenor. And he sent messengers to the Dunedain, who spoke earnestly to the King, and to all who would listen, concerning the fate and fashion of the world.
'The Doom of the World,' they said, 'One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'

So that Frodo, Sam and Gimli, whilst presumably not being withered by the blinding light of Aman (they could not pass that far), would eventually die in the natural course of things, as it was in their nature to do. This has almost certainly been covered in the thread to which Legalos linked his post; and I apologise for the repetition.

[Thranduil]

Thank you all for the info. and now i have a better understanding of things. Thanks again!

(also, could you please rate me? I'm not sure what it even does/mean, but everyone else has rating, and I'd like one too [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

I felt like discussing why the elves pass over to the West when they get weary of Middle-earth. This topic is pretty close to it, right? Well, I didn't want to start another topic though, so I decided to post in this one. Hope it's all right.

Yesterday I was reading some book, and I kept trying to hurry myself. I wanted to finally reach the end and know what things were going to end up like. (And I don't mean that I rushed through it and barely caught a word, I just read it quicker than I would normally have. And yes, all of this does have a point [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) But when I finally reached the end I was a little sad. I love reading, and since that was a good book, I was sad that I was done with it and I didn't want to have finished the book yet. But while reading it, I wanted to find out the ending and I wanted to get through it. Maybe that's how the elves thought of Aman and Middle-earth. I'll use Galadriel as an example. She loved Aman, when as time wore on, she wanted to be somewhere different (and rule her own realm). Then while she was in Middle-earth and time wore on, she wanted to go back to the Blessed realm because she was weary of Middle-earth.

So, any opinions? Do you also think the same when your reading a good book, or am I the only person who does (and who also is the only one who understands! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )