The Return of the Flashback

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

*flashback* A pair of tongs are seen pouring a heated liquid into a mould.
Narrator: It began with the forging of the Great Rings...

*flashback* Voices are heard from the Misty Mountains.
Gandalf: You cannot pass!

*flashback* We see a young hobbit, Sméagol, gently fingering a worm, and as the camera zooms out, we see that he and his cousin Déagol, are sitting in a small boat on the river Anduin
Déagol: Sméagol! I've got one! I've got a fish, Sméag!


All three Lord of the Rings films begin with a short scene telling about a past time, and flashbacks are used very much through the whole trilogy. In the books, as we know, after the fellowship practically split in three at Rauros, Tolkien concentrated first on the other group and then the other. Therefore he jumped back in time as he in turn followed Frodo & Sam and the others. On film the storyline is otherwise chronological, but there are lots of short flashbacks. Now, I didn't count, how many flashbacks there are (if anyone has too much spare time, then be my guest...), but quite many, anyway.

The relationship between Aragorn and Arwen, for example, is pretty much based on several flashbacks, whereas in the book that's appendix stuff. So, how do you feel about those scenes? Were they good and did they contribute the story telling? Can you come up with a better option for flashbacks?
Share your thoughts!

[Boromir88]

Nice post Ungoliant, I don't really mind most the flashbacks, but some I do have a slight problem with.

There are flashbacks in TTT, and ROTK, with Boromir's death. These are well placed, we get the flashback with Faramir remembering Boromir, and then we are in ROTK with denethor and Pippin sees the "flashback." These I believe are well placed, it's suitable that Faramir, Pippin, and Denethor would have flashbacks of Boromir.

The beginning Flashbacks are all good, but some aren't placed well. The prologue, I think that was great, despite the wrong info, PJ did a good job in creating a story, and introducing the actual story to those people who had no idea what LOTR is. I liked TTT, flashback with Frodo's dream, and Gandalf and the Balrog. I even like it better how they made it one of Frodo's dreams, we see Frodo have a few nights of restless sleep, and it would only make sense he would have this dream of Gandalf and the Balrog. The ROTK flashback, I enjoy, some people don't like it. I don't feel it's well placed, maybe should have gone in the first movie, inserted after Isildurs death and before that little bit with Gollum. I think that would have suited fairly nice, but it's not a big complaint of mine. I think it's placing in ROTK, is good, not the best, but I'm not the director.

The Arwen/Aragorn flashbacks I can only take so much of. I know PJ wants to show the love between the two, but I think we get it already. Keep some of the flashbacks in there, but also eliminate some, it's like they are telepathically cybering with eachother.

[Neferchoirwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The ROTK flashback, I enjoy, some people don't like it. I don't feel it's well placed, maybe should have gone in the first movie, inserted after Isildurs death and before that little bit with Gollum.

I agree. I was somehow disturbed by the close-up of Smeagol, and not to mention the vision of erstwhile rotting fish. Either take it out, or do something else with it.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The Arwen/Aragorn flashbacks I can only take so much of. I know PJ wants to show the love between the two, but I think we get it already. Keep some of the flashbacks in there, but also eliminate some, it's like they are telepathically cybering with eachother.

But I think that that's the point of the "flashback." I don't really think of it as a flashback, though. I always thought that it was in the moment. After all, it was way better than the Arwen Warrior Princess bit. This scene shows the depth of their relationship, that it goes beyond just being "together" physically.

[Nimrodel_9]

I think flashbacks are a great idea, but some people do not. In The Two Towers Extended Edition`s Appendices, someone (I don`t remember who it was, probably a publisher) told Tolkien that he should not use flashbacks in story telling (He was refering to Merry and Pippin`s story about the flooding of Isengard), but Tolkien did it anyway. I think it is just fine, as long as there are 2 or more groups, or if someone is recounting something that someone said or did. Did that make sense?

[Encaitare]

I thought that nearly all of the flashbacks were excellent. The Aragorn/Arwen ones are fine so long as you don't think about them too much and I loved the flashback telling how Smeagol became Gollum.

I think it was necessary to include flashbacks, simply because of the depth of the story. It would not have made sense to have people explaining things to no end when they can be seen in a tidy little flashback scene.

[The Only Real Estel]

I had liked nearly all of the flashbacks & thought the Boromir/Faramir flashbacks in the TTT EE were great.

Keep some of the flashbacks in there, but also eliminate some, it's like they are telepathically cybering with eachother

That leads me to two points. I wasn't a huge fan of all the Aragorn/Arwen flashbacks, but they weren't to bad.
The one flashback I really didn't like very well was the 'telepathically cybering' one between Galadriel & Elrond. I didn't mind the Elves being at Helm's Deep, & I understood the logic between Galadriel & Elrond's conversation, but I think PJ went a little to far with the telepathic idea. A lot of people I know are confused by the scene & they're always asking me if 'those two' can always talk to eachother like that, etc. I just don't think it was done very well.

By the way, I also liked the one 'flashforward' that I can remember, when Elrond was talking to Arwen about Aragorn & they flash ahead to a dead Aragorn & Arwen walking through the trees. That's one of my favorite parts, for some reason.

[Boromir88]

Estel, another good "flashforward" was when Arwen saw Aragorn holding their kid Eldarion. I liked it, however, I must say little Eldarion gives me the creeps. .

[mark12_30]

it's like they are telepathically cybering with eachother

It's called Osanwe. Arwen was good at it:

Arwen remained in Rivendell, and when Aragorn was abroad, from afar she watched over him in thought

Galadriel was also particularly good at it:

I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!

and Elrond was no slouch either.



I had no problems whatsoever with the osanwe-chat between Galadriel and Elrond. Too bad they couldn't simply have talked about the wars in Dale, Mirkwood, and Lorien, flashing over to them, rather than sending poor Haldir to his misplaced doom at Helm's Deep.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I thought PJ's flashbacks at the beginning of all three films (especially the
extended dvd for FOTR, were brilliant, especially for nonbook people. And while
as a general rule his added bits/alterations tend to be the weakest parts of the
films, the Boromir/Faramir flashback was excellent, only marred by yet another
example of his foolishness in his portrait of Denethor.

[Boromir88]

the Boromir/Faramir flashback was excellent, only marred by yet another
example of his foolishness in his portrait of Denethor.

Tuor, the scene was so good I completely forgot about again the bad image of Denethor, until now, lol. But, still a good sequence.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I thought PJ's flashbacks at the beginning of all three films (especially the
extended dvd for FOTR, were brilliant, especially for nonbook people, and
ironically were almost cut). And while as a general rule his added bits/alterations
tend to be the weakest parts of the films, the Boromir/Faramir flashback was
excellent, only marred by yet another example of his foolishness in his portrait of
Denethor. I've finally got what PJ's Denethor reminds me of (Shakespeare's
Richard III).

Sorry about this post. it was supposed to be edited from an above one.

[Noxomanus]

I liked all flashbacks (except the Arwen/Aragorn telepathy, wich was a waste of valuable time for me) but my favorite is probably in FotR when Gandalf thinks of his escape from Orthanc and then with visible pain answers Frodo: 'I was delayed.'

[Neferchoirwen]

Originally Posted by Noxomanus

'I was delayed.'

Plain and simple. His soft, apologetic smile in that scene is priceless.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Here are some of my thoughts. I like that, how there's a flashback at the beginning of all three films. It makes a nice "soft" start and kind of transports you in Middle-Earth (though I found the Smeagol strangling Deagol part very creepy).

When I first read the books, I was furious since Aragorn got married to some mysterious and strange elf instead of Eowyn. When I read the appendix, I was very contented with their marriage. So, if I hadn't read the story, without those Aragorn&Arwen flashbacks, I would have been quite confused. But somehow I think PJ gave the audience too much of their relationship (the horse-kissing part was quite superfluous).

In TTT EE the flashback of Gondor's victory is amazing (and there's the theme of Gondor playing...how could I not like it?). It's a little disturbing, though, that both Denethor and Boromir seemed to be very well informed about the Ring and it's powers. But the scenery is just breath-taking. And the scene is in my opinion very well placed in the movie. It's like we could peek into Faramir's mind.

[Essex]

off topic, but Tuor's point on

I've finally got what PJ's Denethor reminds me of (Shakespeare's Richard III).

reminds me of something I always think of when watching a particular denthor scene.

It was when he's dragging Pippin by the scruff of his neck and throwing him out the door with his immortal line "Go now, and die in what way seems best to you. " It was delivered in a totally different context to the one I always imagined when reading the books. In the books, Denethor (to me) sounded sincere and heart felt, but in the film, he seems almost as if he is toying with Pippin and (perhaps) ridiculing him. I was at first slightly annoyed by this, but then thought, hey why not? that's the scriptwriters' view of how they see Denthor speaking to Pippin. Why is my version any more 'right' than theirs?

I then realised that so much could be read into certain scenes and words in the book. Changing the way things are said can totally change the context, very much like the plays of Shakespeare, when one director has a totally different slant on a scene than another. This is obviously what keeps Shakespeare's plays fresh and interesting, and maybe this is why we go back to the LOTR books and discuss them again and again. There is so much to see and read, but maybe as importantly, so many VIEWS on what we 'see' in our mind's eye when we read LOTR (or sometimes when we watch the film)


back on topic. the smeagol/deagol scene, and it's placement at the start of rotk, was a work of genius.

[Boromir88]

Essex:

It was when he's dragging Pippin by the scruff of his neck and throwing him out the door with his immortal line "Go now, and die in what way seems best to you. " It was delivered in a totally different context to the one I always imagined when reading the books. In the books, Denethor (to me) sounded sincere and heart felt, but in the film, he seems almost as if he is toying with Pippin and (perhaps) ridiculing him.

I felt the same way too, in fact it even says when Denethor first meets Pippin, that Denethor is "touched" by it.

A pale smile, like a gleam of cold sun on a winter's evening, passed over the old man's face; but he bent his head and held out his hand, laying the shards of the horn aside.

I wonder, if this small paragraph here, we can see where Pippin sort of "somewhat" takes the place of Boromir. First off, he smiles, then he sets aside Boromir's horn, so there is no doubt this "warmed" Denethor's grieving heart, and I wonder if Denethor sort of used Pippin to replace Boromir, but as we know it was also to get info out of him. It's a tricky question, and as you said, it all depends on how you read it.

[gorthaur_cruel]

The Smeagol flashback was rather nice, IMO, except that part where he bites the fish. Creepy.

I think the main reason PJ added in that Smeagol flashback was to emphasize the pity one should feel for him. Except for a brief talk between Frodo and Gollum in TT, Gollum is just seen as a nasty, slimy creature to non-book readers. Gollum's flashback makes it clear how the Ring took control of him, and that he deserves some pity. I especially like how they showed the current Gollum right after the flashback, to emphasize this.

The Fellowship prologue was my favorite though. Starting off with a huge battle scene lets people know that this isn't a boring movie you're about to watch. And PJ only shows you a glimpse of the battle, so as to not spoil the "real" battles.

Gandalf's fight with the balrog was also great, in that it continued from a previously-seen scene. But it had a major flaw, which stops it from being my favorite flashback. It practically gives away that Gandalf's still alive right at the beginning of the movie. The only thing people have to wonder is: "How did he survive and when/how will he return?"

[Neferchoirwen]

The fight with the Balrog was, in a word, glorious . However, I find it such of a tease when he recounted what happened to him after. The story of that doesn't help much with the plot of the movies, but it's another side of LotR that mystifies this constant LotR reader, and I can't help but wonder about it.

It's funny to think that Gandalf is probably the frequently flash-backed character in all of the movies, I think. And it says so much about him.

[ArathorofBarahir]

I enjoy the flashbacks, all of them.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

So, it was me, who had too much free time to count the flashbacks. Or at least those in FotR and TTT EE. And the final count is 16 (If I haven't forgotten anything).
Here they are:
FotR:

1. Prologue
2. Bag End: Gandalf talking to Frodo: flashback to Gollum in Barad-Dur
3. Rivendell: fb to Gandalf's escape
4. Rivendell: Elrond talking with Gandalf: fb to Isildur and Mount Doom
5. Anduin: the gift-giving scene

TTT:

1. Gandalf fights the Balrog
2. Rohan: Aragorn tracking the hobbits: flashback to Pippin at the orcs' camp
3. Rohan: Aragorn tracking the hobbits: 3 separate flashbacks -> hobbits meet Treebeard
4. Fangorn: 3 Hunters meet Gandalf: fb to Gandalf fighting the Balrog
5. Going to Helm's Deep: Aragorn's dream flashback to Arwen in Rivendell
6. Going to Helm's Deep: Eowyn talking to Aragorn: fb to Elrond conversing with Aragorn and Aragorn conversing with Arwen ("our time here is ending...")
7. Rivendell: Elrond talking with Arwen: flashforward to Aragorn's death
8. Ithilien: Faramir thinking: Faramir sees Boromir's boat floating by
9. Ithilien: Faramir thinking: the victory of Osgiliath

What do you say about that?

[Gurthang]

For some reason, I can't get 5 and 9 to make 16, but then again, maybe I should stop doing math on my fingers.

But yes, the flashbacks do add a lot to the movies. One of my personal favorites is Gandalf remembering his escape from Isengard. It was excellently done to let the watcher know what happened, but without taking up a lot of time.

Maybe it's just me, but the Smeagol flashback really creeped me out. I think it was the slow heartbeat in the background as Smeagol was murdering Deagol. But it did give more background on Gollum, and let everyone make a clearer decision on if they thought he was truly evil.

But my overall favorite is Gandalf vs. Balrog. That was just cool!

[Lush]

Flashback scenes in movies can be tricky, because if not handled properly they can either seriously disrupt the flow of the storyline, or just appear gratuitous and heavy-handed. For example, the director of an action film attempts to give his main character some depth by using flashback scenes to give us some insight into what makes this guy tick; is it just me, or do pretty much all of those scenes feel melodramatic, overblown, and out of place? Or is this just a commentary on bad directing in general?

Keeping the above in mind, I thought the flashback scenes at the beginning of each movie were done with exceptional grace. We become submerged into the story via these introductions, they provide not only clarity, but set the mood and tempo of a complex story populated by many, many characters.

Per the Aragorn and Arwen flashbacks in TTT, I can't say I enjoyed them all that much. I felt they lacked chemistry, especially when compared to the way A & A were shown interacting in FotR. Furthermore, I felt these flashbacks were guilty of the sins I described above, they broke up my mood by attempting to tug at my heartstrings, but doing it in a rather clumsy way. It was as if the director thought, 'Oh wait, there are too many limbs getting hacked off, we need to insert some FEELINGS into the story,' and did it in a manner than didn't particularly jive with the film's overall mood.

I'm not saying that the A & A flashbacks were unnecessary, but I feel they could have been done better.

Having said that, I thought the flashforward bits, particularly Aragorn's death, were excellent, as a few people have already mentioned.

[Neferchoirwen]

Originally Posted by Lush

For example, the director of an action film attempts to give his main character some depth by using flashback scenes to give us some insight into what makes this guy tick; is it just me, or do pretty much all of those scenes feel melodramatic, overblown, and out of place? Or is this just a commentary on bad directing in general?

More like bad writing.

Originally Posted by Lush

I'm not saying that the A & A flashbacks were unnecessary, but I feel they could have been done better.

It's also a problem of "show, don't tell." Everyone knows that Aragorn and Arwen really DO have a chemistry between them, but the flashbacks failed to enhance the way their "chemistry" happens. Assuming that there is a better way to do them. Assuming of course, that I do not see how the flashbacks can be improved or redone.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I just remembered this old thread and even though we now have the excellent S-b-S discussion which kind of covers this topic, I decided to add a list of RotK's flashbacks here.

RotK:

1. Smeagol & Deagol fishing
2. Minas Tirith: Gandalf & Pippin talking: flashback to Boromir getting shot
3. Minas Tirith: Gandalf & Pippin talking: flashback to the Weathertop scene in FotR
4. Rohan: Aragorn's dream: flashforward to the Paths of the Dead and breaking of the Evenstar, a vision of Arwen dying
5: Minas Tirith: Aragorn with the palantir: flashback to Arwen dying

In addition to those five, there's also Arwen's vision of Eldarion.

Now that the Fellowship's paths cross again, there are much less flashbacks than in TTT. Besides, there's no time to look back when tension is being built up as we are drawing near to the climax of this 11-hour-long story.

You know, reading this...

Originally Posted by Mark12_30

It's called Osanwe. Arwen was good at it:

...suddenly made me accept the much-debated Arwen-horse-Aragorn-kissing scene. Even though I think it could have been done better (for example, I thought that Galadriel lifting Frodo up in the Cirith Ungol scene was very nice), seeing that there is some kind of basis for that in the books makes me much less irritated about it.

[Boromir88]

In addition to those five, there's also Arwen's vision of Eldarion.

Plus the ROTK EE where Denethor sees a "Ghostly apparition" of Boromir appear. I love this because I think it just goes to further show Denethor's loss of control over his mind. He's stuck in the past, caught up in all this despair that's gone all around him, he can't get "passed the past."

I had a wonderful conversation with Lalwende over Denethor here. In which case I think we do get a sense that Denethor was once a much better man than he was later on. However, he is got up in the past, with the loss of his wife, the loss of his son and heir and he can't get passed the despair like Theoden was able to. I think this little flashback of Denethor's in the movies goes to show this perfectly.

This may not be a "true" flashback where we get a look at the past, but for Denethor it is a flashback, remembering his lost son and thinking he's there.

[Captain Grishnahk]

One of my favorite FLASHBACKS in the movies is when Gandalf is talking to Pippin.
"The Witch King of Agmar. You met him before, he stabbed Frodo on Weathertop."

*Witch King draws sword*
**stabb!!!***
Frodo: AAAEEEIIIIAAAHHHHG!!!


Great flashback there...

-Cap.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Boromir

I love this because I think it just goes to further show Denethor's loss of control over his mind.

Well, that it shows perfectly (and thanks for the link). I for one don't like that aspect in the flashback so much because I have always thought that Denethor was rather a desperate guy than a mental case. Of course, it isn't very sane to burn yourself and your last son alive, but still, I like to think that it was because he had lost all his hope while staring into his palantir and not because he was lunatic.

Another interesting thing in this flashback is Faramir's reaction. It's heartbreaking, really, to see him just standing still and listening to Denethor saying how Faramir's brother was a better person. How can you be mad at him for dragging Frodo to Osgiliath when he has a father like that!

Originally Posted by Captain Grishnahk

One of my favorite FLASHBACKS in the movies is when Gandalf is talking to Pippin.

*Witch King draws sword*
**stabb!!!***
Frodo: AAAEEEIIIIAAAHHHHG!!!

That made me think... why is that flashback there? Is the general movie audience so feeble-minded that they can't recall, who the Witch King is without showing the stabbing again? Sure, it's a nice scene, but I don't think it contributes the reintroduction of the WK very much. The shot of the Witch King preparing for a battle in a dark room is ten times scarier to me than the Weathertop flashback - I mean, we know that Frodo escaped from five wraiths alive there. Although it would have been a fatal stab if they hadn't reached Rivendell in time, the knowledge that he survived lessens the Witch King's credibility quite a bit and makes the scene less frightening.

[Captain Grishnahk]

Through the movie Frodo sometimes rubs his shoulder, showing there is still pain there. Then at the end him saying, "Its been (cant remember) since weathertop. It's never acctually healed."
There are some people who are not as obbsessed like us, and they would be like, "what's weathertop?" because Weathertop in the movies is only mentioned once by Aragorn. Only the Book Fanatics would know what Gandalf was talking about. My mom was like, "What's weathertop?" and then it showed the flashback and she said, "OH!"
I think this flashback is perfect for those who are ONLY movie fans... plus it's a great scene. I love the witchking getting ready for battle too, that part is awsome!

-Cap