Faramir's age.

[Boromir88]

I was looking, and the 3 stewards before Denethor never reached a 100 yrs in age. Now that Denethor died, let's say "prematurely" he might have reached 100 yrs old, because for an upper 80 man I thought he seemed fairly healthy, I mean carrying a sword and wearing a full suit of mail. But, still yet he failed to reach 100 yrs. Then we have Faramir who jumps up to 120 yrs old, and the only other steward to reach 120 was Mardil. So, I would like to know is there any significance Tolkien ment by making the first and last ruling stewards reach 120? And, this has been slightly discussed before but Faramir was very old for a Gondor man at this time, any reason that he lived so long?

[Encaitare]

I can't back this with a quote or anything, but I'm pretty sure it says that Faramir had received by some chance much of the blood of Numenor, so therefore he would live longer than the average man, or Steward. There would have been more Numenorean blood in the earlier Gondorians, hence Mardil's long age. The fact that they both lived to be 120 might just serve to "bookend" the era of the Ruling Stewards.

If anyone can provide a quote or excerpt explaining this, please do.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

[Gandalf: ] . . . whatever be [Denethor's] descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir . . . (LotR V 1)

This is the only one I remember.

[Fingolfin II]

Faramir wasn't a ruling steward- Denethor was the last. I suppose Faramir would have longer lifespan than the common Gondorians because of his Steward descent, but also because of his minor touch of Elven blood through his descent from Finduilas of Dol Amroth.

I think it says somewhere in RotK that it was not common for a man, even of 'purer' blood, to live for longer than five score (100 years), so Faramir had an extraordinary longevity granted to him even for a Steward of Gondor; another example is Elros who lived extremely long even by the span of a Numenorean King.

This may be due to his good deeds and his role in the War of the Ring (look at Aragorn who was rewarded with life longer than most of his forefathers who weren't born in Numenor, for all his hard work in the defeat of Saruon). However, I also think that the Dol Amroth Elven blood factor plays a fairly significant role in this as well.

[rutslegolas]

Well Gndalf certainly mentions that Faramir had Numenor blood so I think he would certainly live for more than 100 years. But I cant find anything saying that he lived as long as Elessar ?

[Fingolfin II]

He didn't live as long as Aragorn, who lived for 210 years, but what I'm saying is that he is similar to Aragorn in that they both have a marked longevity even for their own bloodlines, which are longer-lived than most Gondorians.

[Mithalwen]

I more or less agree with Fingolfin on this. Since I know not how to do a link, forgive me for quoting my own post from "The Landing of Elendil".

- "The Princes of Dol Amroth all make 100 or thereabouts.. The men of Dol Amroth also retain the classic Numenorean appearance; height as well as longevity being a Numenorean trait...Faramir is an interesting case - he has the typical Numenorean traits of nobility of character and bearing and height - and he has a conspicuously long life reaching about 120 - which seems to be more than could have expected from his genetic legacy even allowing for the fact that he is the child of a Steward and a daughter of the "ultra pure" house of Dol Amroth. Maybe a small part of the "grace" given to the first Numenoreans was given to Faramir as a reward for his small but significant role in the success of the mission of the Ringbearer? I like to think so."

I can't prove this theory but I think it is a reasonable hypothesis..

[Boromir88]

Fingolfin, I think it's all based about perspective. I will have to search for the direct quote but Gandalf does make Imrahil temporarily in command of the city until the "steward" awakes. Then Faramir did awake, and was called of course the "rightful steward." But, I see where you say Denethor is the last ruling steward, for it does say that in the Appendix, but also, Faramir ruled for a very short time before Aragorn was crowned king. I don't intend on going against the writing, I mean if it says Denethor is the last ruling steward, then that's the fact, you would be correct, just making a point that Faramir did rule for a short time before the crowning of Elessar.

And also...

He didn't live as long as Aragorn, who lived for 210 years, but what I'm saying is that he is similar to Aragorn in that they both have a marked longevity even for their own bloodlines, which are longer-lived than most Gondorians.

Yes, Aragorn was even old, to the Dunedain when he died. And Faramir I would guess surpassed the average age of a man from Dol Amroth, who were some of the longer lived Gondorians due to their Elven-blood.

[Encaitare]

Faramir wasn't a ruling steward- Denethor was the last.

I stand corrected, Fingolfin! Although he was rather the last "official" steward, being the last before Aragorn became king. He didn't do much as steward, but still...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Aragorn 's peculiar longevity may also be attributed to his kingship. The line of Elros had almost twice the lifespan of a normal Númenórean - until its decline, that is.

[Fingolfin II]

Boromir88 you are absolutely correct about Gandalf making Imrahil in charge of the city in the place of Faramir, but he wasn't initiated into the Stewardship and wasn't in charge of the city, so I don't think he qualifies as a Ruling Steward. However, it is a matter of opinion, and yes, you are right again when you say that I got that titbit about Denethor from the Appendices.

Thanks for that excerpt from your other post Nil.

[Belegorn]

I know this was a post from a while ago and I don't think there are any rules against bringing up an old topic.

Anyways I want to give my opinion on this. In Gondor the life span is basically all but regressed back to normal levels even in the people oh higher Numenorean descent. Faramir makes a statement that, "if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things." [TTT, p. 339] Here Faramir makes clear that even the nobility are but Middle Men.

Now there is one thing that we should look at as regards to purer houses in Gondor. Even though their lifespans are basically that of other men they do not necessarily age as other men do as they can remain vital longer. Gandalf says, "the span of their lives had waned to little more than that of other men, and those among them who passed the tale of five score years with vigour were grown few, save in some houses of purer blood." [RotK, p. 149] So here we have the notion that although the span of the lives of these purer families may have decreased to about the same as other men, the number of those years spent in vitality is certainly longer. In other words they would be like the Kings of the Numenoreans who died still vital without holding onto life. Those who did would grew sterile.

Faramir may have been in some way related to the house of the Kings, but even if that were so, we do know that the 7th Steward was the last man in Gondor to live 150 years. So even if there were still relatives of the King in Gondor even their life spans were much diminished. However, the line of Kings would always have the longer lifespan compared to other people of Numenor. In the beginning when they lived to 400 years or more, other Numenoreans lived to around 200 years. I think that the diminishment of lifespans had much to do with the way of life of the Dunedain. Those closer to an Elvish sort of life were longer lived than those who rebelled. Like in the end of Numenor you had the Faithful and the King's Men. The Kings life spans were diminishing rapidly. The last king felt death at his doors when he was around 220 years of age. Elendil who was related to the house of the Kings was over 300 years old when he was slain by Sauron. The father of the last king of Numenor died before he was 200! I would say the gift most effected by Rebellion and the life was lifespan. Other gifts it seems did not take that big of a hit. As we see Denethor was like a wizard to the Hobbits, Faramir too. They had great powers normal men did not possess and one would think like much of the noble houses still in existance they would remain vital deep into their life. Of course, Denethor was said to age prematurely, and this may have been due to his struggles with Sauron in the Palantir.

Also I believe if you take a look at it the Stewards tended to be longer lived than the Princes of Dol Amroth. I think Faramir and his father, like Aragorn, were probably among the greatest men of their day, but I would say we could apply some of their attributes to the purer people in Gondor. For example, of Faramir, Eowen "knew, for she was bred among men of war, that here was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle." [RotK, p. 265] Or Pippin thinking, "how closely he resembled his brother Boromir... Here was one with an air of high nobility such as Aragorn at times revealed, less high perhaps, yet also less incalculable and remote: one of the Kings of Men born into a later time, but touched with wisdom and sadness of the Elder Race." [RotK, p. 91] Obviously Faramir and Denethor were more the exception even among the purer Gondorians as they were more like to the High Men than the Middle Men which Faramir claimed the people of Gondor were basically become. Gandalf also says how this blood of Westernesse runs truer in father and son which does not necessarily account for any extreme lifespan, "He is not as other men of this time [they are High Men], Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceieve him and dangerous to try." [RotK, p. 33] This is just an account of some of the power of Denethor and his son Faramir. Also add to this the vitality they will take with them into old age and their physical abilties as Eowyn saw in Faramir. Faramir and Denethor are the cream of the crop in Gondor until Aragorn arrives.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Fingolfin II

He didn't live as long as Aragorn, who lived for 210 years, but what I'm saying is that he is similar to Aragorn in that they both have a marked longevity even for their own bloodlines, which are longer-lived than most Gondorians.

I would say the similarity is more with their other Numenorian traits than in their lifespans. Though that is a Numenorean trait too, the long life spans. They are similar in that they appear and are more noble than other men. Their powers of mind and body outstrip other men and they are High Men in an age of Middle Men. Also they age much better than other men. That is important distiction when we note that their lifespans, save the kings house, are similar to other men. So a Faramir at 50 would be in much better physical condition than someone else, unless it's someone else of the purer houses.

[Aganzir]

Besides having Númenorean blood, I've always thought Tolkien let special and/or particularly good people live longer, Aragorn and Faramir who both had longer lifespans than their average countrymen being cases in point in my mind. I didn't remember Elendil's age, but the theory works with it too.

Anyway, here's an essay complete with graphs: Decline of the Lifespan of the Númenoreans. It's written by an (inactive) Downer called Alcuin, whose awesome website I consult whenever I need information about the (lifespans of the) Stewards of Gondor or the Princes of Dol Amroth for RPGing purposes.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Tolkien noted that the long lifespan of the Númenóreans was “brought about by assimilation of their mode of life to that of the Eldar … ‘Clinging to life’, and so in the end dying perforce and involuntarily, was one of the changes brought about by the Shadow and the rebellion of the Númenóreans; it was also accompanied by a shrinking of their natural life-span.”

[Belegorn]

Elendil was around 322 when he died. At that time the Faithful had longer lifespans than the Kings who's lifespans diminished to what Aragorn's was when he died, at around 210 years. This age was basically the lifespan of the average Numenorean who was not a member of the Kings house. Ar-Pharazon was feeling his time coming to an end at around 200 years. His father died before he was 200. These were members of the Kings Men. The Rebels. But remember, even though Elendil was old he was still like a young man. This condition still held for the purer families in Gondor during Faramir's time even though their lifespan was not much different from other Men. I personally think that the lifespan was the gift most effected by rebellion and the wish to escape mankind's fate than anything else.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

... In Gondor the life span is basically all but regressed back to normal levels even in the people oh higher Numenorean descent. Faramir makes a statement that,
"if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things." [TTT, p. 339]
Here Faramir makes clear that even the nobility are but Middle Men. ....

There is more to Faramir's explanation:

"...For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days. So even was my brother..."

I find it relevant that the decline from the 'high' state is associated with loss of finer crafts. This includes the loss of written and oral tradition because Boromir and Faramir did not know what Isildur's Bane might be. One feature of High and Middle Men is the refinement in their armour and weaponry, while the Men of Darkness have relatively crude and fewer artefacts.
In real world terms it has always been much the same. Neanderthal burials contain necklaces where stones have carved grooves used to tie them onto a thread or thong, while other contemporary hominids were drilling holes to put the thread through. It may not sound much but it indicates both a higher level of technology and a greater attention to detail, the beginning of a process of improvement which has continued since (though some things have been lost and not always re-discovered along the way).

I think the point of Faramir's life-span is that in a society where people support one another (enough to promote creativity, instead of focussing solely on 'hand-to-mouth' survival) the poor are more likely to live longer and prosperity increase as a whole. I do not think it coincidence that the High Elves' society resembles a monastic order: orderly gardens, chanting and song, The Wise in leadership... Neither is it surprising that outsiders view the Lady of the Golden Wood with suspicion, or that the likes of Sam think them 'magical'.

One feature which distinguishes Boromir and Faramir is their attitudes towards listening and comanding. Stepping over the line between noble man and war leader Boromir did not listen to Elrond's warnings about the Ring and tried to demand it be given to him. Faramir passed his test because he listened to the warning of his heart. He clearly knew there is more to nobility than the virtues of warfare alone.
This is applicable in the real world, in the world of myth and parable it is exagerated.

[Bêthberry]

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

Good question!

It seems to me the obsession with living long is associated with the Númenórean-descendants, and a lingering pall of the fear of death that led to the fall of Númenor itself. It was a matter of pride to many of them, and it led to further trouble in their exile in Middle-earth. The idea of mixing their blood with the Northmen, leading to a decreased lifespan, was one of the primary causes of the Kin-strife in Gondor that nearly destroyed them.

Overall, I think the importance of the increased lifespan was more pronounced with people of the sort of Denethor, not so much Faramir and Aragorn.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

To your last enquiry in Appendix A it is said, "their years lessened as their fear of death grew" [p. 354] The decline in their lifespans was in conjunction with their continued rejection of the fate of Men. This is basically the shadow that fell upon Numenor as the Edain, "began to long for the immortality of the Eldar... in the days of Tar-Minastir, eleventh King... the thought of death darkened the hearts of the people." [RotK, p. 353]

The people were not accepting their fates. They grew resentful of the choice of Elros to be a King of Men rather than of the Elves. They thougt they should be given a choice too to decide their fates and many of them wanted to be immortal as the Elves were. Keep in mind how far this dread of death went; they began sacrificing people to Melkor in the hope that they could be released from death when Sauron had the ear of Ar-Pharazon. This afflicted even the Faithful so that even their lifespans diminished yet not nearly as fast as the Kings. In the Akallbeth the general feeling on the island is described as, "the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them;" [Sil., p. 325]

As regards the fate of men an envoy came to admonish the people of Numenor, "this we hold to be true, that your home is not here [in Arda, that is, which is why the Elves referred to Men as visitors], neither in the land of Aman nor anywhere within the Circles of the World. And the Doom of Men, that they should depart, was at first a gift of Iluvatar" [p. 327] The King Atanamir was not hearing this and did not agree with this and he "lived to a great age, clinging to his life beyond the end of all joy; and he was the first of the Numenoreans to do this" [p. 328]

Longevity of a life 3 times that of the span of average Men for the general Dunedain was a gift. This was a gift that did not contradict their natures, but they wanted more, they wanted to be as Elves, even though they nearly were, "they grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men" [Sil, p. 321] The distinction between the two, the High Men and Elves was barely perceptible. So why are the High Men supposed to live longer? It was one of the gifts given to them like the island of Numenor, "As a reward for their sufferings in the cause against Morgoth" [RotK, p. 351] in the First Age. They were Elf-friends. Longevity should not have been an issue for them since they were mortal and could not hope for immortality, though some assume maybe Tuor was granted immortality as Luthien was granted mortality.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

It was one of the gifts given to them like the island of Numenor, "As a reward for their sufferings in the cause against Morgoth" [RotK, p. 351] in the First Age.

I think this is a rather pertinent example. It would seem to me that the long lives of the Dúnedain were both a reward and a responsibility - so that these Men would have a long time to attain wisdom and therefore see to their inheritance, the governance of Arda, with justice and righteousness, but also so that they had the time to appreciate the fruits of their labours. Yet not endlessly, so that they avoided the weariness of the "terrestrial longevity" which was the burden of the Elves and the incarnate Ainur. For instance when Gandalf is talking to himself and says it is "a habit of the old", Aragorn responds: "I am no longer young even in the reckoning of Men of the Ancient Houses. Will you not open your mind more clearly to me?" (LR p.485) This longevity was seemingly an assistance to their spiritual mission, as it were, for it lent them the experience and time needed to fulfil the responsibilities of their age. On the other side, it's said when Aragorn and Arwen are married that "the tale of their long waiting and labours was come to fulfilment." (LR p.951) A long life was not an unenviable thing; it was a reward for labours. But an endless life was not such a blessing: "Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness." (The Silmarillion .265)
I would offer, therefore, that a long life was meant as an opportunity and a responsibility to fulfil one stage of Eru's plan for Men in the greatest possible way, before passing beyond Eä to experience the next stage of the spiritual journey ordained for Men by Eru: that which occurred after the death of the body. I would consider that to be a possibility for why a long life would still be considered valuable even if mortality was regarded as a gift. It effectively allowed a Dúnadan to have the best of both worlds.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

On this, see the Athrabeth (HME X). Basically, the idea was that before the Fall precipitated by Morgoth and/or Sauron "offstge" in the Elder Days, all Men were not immortal but given spans of centuries and the right to depart of their own volition, as was the case with the earlier Kings of Numenor: they had been restored to nearly the "state of grace" of Eden.

Note that in that tale, like Numenor later, their seduction by the Dark led to a Temple inhabited by the dark God-king who demanded human sacrifice.

-------------------

As to Faramir, it could also be thought that there was a special grace or blessedness over the whole of Middle-earth associated with the fall of Sauron and his departure from Ea as an active presence, as seen in the "Great Year of Plenty" in 1420. EDIT: Eomer also lived remarkably long for one of the Rohirrim, reaching 102.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Oh- as to "last Ruling Steward:- in "The Steward and the King," Faramir offers Aragorn his white rod and says "the last Steward of Gondor begs leave to surrender his office," and A. gives it back saying "that office is not ended" etc etc.

I would suggest that Faramir was, albeit briefly, the last Ruling Steward for six weeks from Denethor's death until Elessar's coronation, and only under a Dol Amroth regency for three days; and that that rule was more than notional after the Captains marched to Mordor, even if he still was staying in the HofH. After all, somebody had to be in charge, and it wasn't Imrahil; and I would venture that during that period March 18 - May 1 the white banner flew from the Tower.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Oh- as to "last Ruling Steward:- in "The Steward and the King," Faramir offers Aragorn his white rod and says "the last Steward of Gondor begs leave to surrender his office," and A. gives it back saying "that office is not ended" etc etc.

I would suggest that Faramir was, albeit briefly, the last Ruling Steward for six weeks from Denethor's death until Elessar's coronation, and only under a Dol Amroth regency for three days; and that that rule was more than notional after the Captains marched to Mordor, even if he still was staying in the HofH. After all, somebody had to be in charge, and it wasn't Imrahil; and I would venture that during that period March 18 - May 1 the white banner flew from the Tower.

You're right, William. In an early draft of Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings, which did not make it into the published version, Faramir is twice called ‘the last Ruling Steward’. (J.R.R.Tolkien, The History of Middle Earth: 12. The Peoples of Middle Earth, (London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1997), pp. 206-207.

Even in the text of the published version of LotR, it's obvious that Faramir was the last Ruling Steward. In ‘The Steward and the King’, the Warden told Éowyn, ‘the Lord Faramir is by right the Steward of the City’. (LotR, Book 6, Chapter V, p. 938) Later, Faramir being healed, ‘took upon him his authority and the Stewardship, although it was only for a little while, and his duty was to prepare for one who should replace him’. (Ibid., p. 942) (My emphasis) On the morning of 1st May, the day of King Elessar’s coronation, the standard of the Stewards ‘was raised over Gondor for the last time'. (Ibid., p. 944)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

On the morning of 1st May, the day of King Elessar’s coronation, the standard of the Stewards ‘was raised over Gondor for the last time'. (Ibid., p. 944)

That's an interesting phrase, and one wonders if Tolkien thought it through completely; since we know that Elessar went several times to war in Harad and Rhun, and it appears that Gondor in this sort of thing defaults to historical European practice, it would seem to me to be the case that the Tree, Crown and Stars accompanied the King when he went forth, just as the British Royal Standard flies from the place the Queen currently is, and nowhere else; and that during his absence the Standard flown from the White Tower would be that of whomever was governing the realm in the King's absence- in other words, the Steward, fulfilling the same ancient role the office had before the disappearance of Earnur. (cf the Rohirric office of Underking).

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

If death is supposed to be a gift to the race of man, then why is longevity such an important issue? Why are the "high" supposed to live longer and why is a decrease in life span a sign of weakness or decline?

It seems, both life and death are gifts of Eru. And both of these gifts require a lot to accept them as they are. I totally agree with Belegorn on the matter.

[Sarumian]

In regard of Faramir I tend to think that his long lifespan was determined by the combination of his ancestry and his personal achievements. I think, everyone who found strength to reject The Ring was somehow rewarded for that in some way. Moreover, both king Elessar and Faramir were Gandalf's disciples, they became the wielders of his wisdom (and Gandalf is the Spirit of Wisdom) in the world where magic was waning.

I always felt that Tolkien said too little about Faramir's role after the king was restored. We know, he was made a Prince of Ithilien and ruled Gondor in the king's absence. But I thought as a keeper of Gandalf's legacy and lore of Gondor, Faramir should have become a great teacher and established the Academy of Ithilien, where he taught - something the king would have never been able to do as kingship is too demanding business. Honestly, I expected something like this from our Professor, who said that of all characters Faramir is the closest to the author.

[Belegorn]

Yea, the Appendix does have Tolkien stating that Denethor, "was the last of the Ruling Stewards" but in the text it would seem it could be otherwise.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Yea, the Appendix does have Tolkien stating that Denethor, "was the last of the Ruling Stewards" but in the text it would seem it could be otherwise.

Well, Denethor was the last Steward who Ruled de facto but Faramir was the last Ruling Steward de jure. Legally Aragorn didn't take over until his coronation, but in practice he was The Boss from the time he stormed ashore at the Harlond while Faramir was still in a coma. When Aragorn heals him that evening his first words are "My lord, you called me. I come. What does the king command?" Similarly, Imrahil declares "The Lord Aragorn I hold to be my liege-lord, whether he claim it or no."

(I always thought it was a trifle coy for Aragorn to enter the city anonymously and make a big deal of making no "open claim," despite having blatantly and unmistakenly declared his claim when he broke the Royal Standard from his flagship)

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I always felt that Tolkien said too little about Faramir's role after the king was restored. We know, he was made a Prince of Ithilien and ruled Gondor in the king's absence. But I thought as a keeper of Gandalf's legacy and lore of Gondor, Faramir should have become a great teacher and established the Academy of Ithilien, where he taught - something the king would have never been able to do as kingship is too demanding business. Honestly, I expected something like this from our Professor, who said that of all characters Faramir is the closest to the author.

I beg to differ with you here, Sarumian. Tolkien was quite clear about what Faramir did after Elessar was crowned, in one of his letters, which contained comments on a lost criticism concerning Faramir and Eowyn, c. 1963:

Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was clear that there was much fighting, and in the early years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally be a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean king was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor. (The Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien, (London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1995), Letter 244, pp. 323-4.)

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

the long lives of the Dúnedain were both a reward and a responsibility - so that these Men would have a long time to attain wisdom and therefore see to their inheritance, the governance of Arda, with justice and righteousness, but also so that they had the time to appreciate the fruits of their labours. Yet not endlessly, so that they avoided the weariness of the "terrestrial longevity" which was the burden of the Elves and the incarnate Ainur.

I read somewhere, maybe a note, maybe not, how they were granted long life enough not to sort of break their natures, because their bodies could not handle such things in excess of that they were given and also their Doom. I agree with you that they should have no share in the burden of the Doom of the Elves when they had their own Doom to embrace.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

(I always thought it was a trifle coy for Aragorn to enter the city anonymously and make a big deal of making no "open claim," despite having blatantly and unmistakenly declared his claim when he broke the Royal Standard from his flagship)

I'm not sure why he'd do that either. He did also fulfill a belief about the healing hands of the Kings in the Houses of Healing so that could have been an aid to any claim. IMO most of Gondor was basically made up of Middle Men now. Few houses were like that of the Steward's and for Aragorn to come in there as he was a man of lengthy years looking like he was Faramir's age or some such the people would jump at him being their king. He'd be like the living incarnation of stories of the long-lived kings of Gondor. Obviously the higher ups had a say in accepting the king and maybe if Denethor still lived it would be a debate like Arvedui had. Denethor was described as one like nearest kin to Aragorn and he and his house or people who were of like mind would not be much impressed with Aragorn as they were pretty impressive themselves though not as long-lived.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I beg to differ with you here, Sarumian. Tolkien was quite clear about what Faramir did after Elessar was crowned, in one of his letters, which contained comments on a lost criticism concerning Faramir and Eowyn, c. 1963:

Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was clear that there was much fighting, and in the early years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally be a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean king was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor. (The Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien, (London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1995), Letter 244, pp. 323-4.)

Excellent point about Faramir's role during Aragorn's reign.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I was looking, and the 3 stewards before Denethor never reached a 100 yrs in age. Now that Denethor died, let's say "prematurely" he might have reached 100 yrs old, because for an upper 80 man I thought he seemed fairly healthy, I mean carrying a sword and wearing a full suit of mail. But, still yet he failed to reach 100 yrs. Then we have Faramir who jumps up to 120 yrs old, and the only other steward to reach 120 was Mardil. So, I would like to know is there any significance Tolkien ment by making the first and last ruling stewards reach 120? And, this has been slightly discussed before but Faramir was very old for a Gondor man at this time, any reason that he lived so long?

## Maybe Faramir lived as long as he did, as a result of the renewal brought by the return (& coronation) of the King. Gondor stops decaying - and is renewed. And there is no more Sauron, so the worst of his effects pass; though much remains.

When Mardil died in 2080, presumably the decline in the gifts of the Valar to the Numenoreans had not gone as far as it would by (say) 3000. Mardil was of a family related closely to the Kings of Numenor (though apparently not as closely as the Lords of Andunie, from whom the Kings of Arnor & Gondor were descended); and as he lived a thousand years before his descendant Faramir, the gifts of the Valar - which included long life - may have been less "diluted" by living in Middle Earth, not being in Numenor, being in a land under the Shadow, etc. Elendil was 322 when he died prematurely in battle. Isildur was 234 when he was killed. His son, Elendur, was a young man of 144. Aragorn, as rightful king many generations later, lived to 210 - much less than most of his ancestors, but 90 years more than his distant relative Faramir. Had Aragorn not been "Envinyatar", "the Renewer", his lifespan might have been significantly less.

Being in Middle Earth, and declining from what they had been, lessened the vitality & lifespan of the Numenoreans - and these ages are the result of living in that environment. Though there is probably far more to it than that. Environment is never just environment in Tolkien.

[Belegorn]

The enviroment probably did play a role in the diminishment of lifespans since it seemed to be the nature of Middle Earth with fading. In Aragorn's line unless they were killed his forebears were living to 150+ years. His Grandfather and father were both slain, but prior to them, going backwards, the Cheiftains ages were, 155, 155, 156, 156, 157, 157, 158, 159, et cetera. His father was killed with a poison missle to the eye, I believe, at 60 and his grandfather died at 110 by trolls in the mountains. If Denethor was like the nearest of kin to Aragorn I would think that Faramir was even moreso like him in behavior which is why he and Aragorn were pretty long-lived imo since we can see how the behavior of the Faithful and King's Men in Numenor effected their lifespans. The lifespan of the average man was 70 years and the average Numenorean had a lifespan 3 times that, which would be 210 [70 X 3] which was what Aragorn was when he died.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

The enviroment probably did play a role in the diminishment of lifespans since it seemed to be the nature of Middle Earth with fading. In Aragorn's line unless they were killed his forebears were living to 150+ years. His Grandfather and father were both slain, but prior to them, going backwards, the Cheiftains ages were, 155, 155, 156, 156, 157, 157, 158, 159, et cetera. His father was killed with a poison missle to the eye, I believe, at 60 and his grandfather died at 110 by trolls in the mountains. If Denethor was like the nearest of kin to Aragorn I would think that Faramir was even moreso like him in behavior which is why he and Aragorn were pretty long-lived imo since we can see how the behavior of the Faithful and King's Men in Numenor effected their lifespans. The lifespan of the average man was 70 years and the average Numenorean had a lifespan 3 times that, which would be 210 [70 X 3] which was what Aragorn was when he died.

That point about Aragorn living 70 x 3 years is important, I think. Elros was given a span of 500 years - which (I assume, and the assumption needs testing) is to be understood as 5 x 100, rather than as 7 x 70 (plus 10 years). This is exceptional - no other Ruler, even before the coming of the Shadow, was anything like as old; Tar-Atanamir lived to 421, but only at the cost of becoming senile. His son was the last Ruler to reach 400. (His son reached 390 - how far this is significant, is not clear.) When Ar-Pharazon died (if that's what happened) he was 201 - which is presumably to be understood as 67 x 3; and though still vigorous to go to war, he was "feeling his age", and near to death. Presumably a 400-year life for a Numenorean Ruler would be equivalent to a lifespan of 80 for a Lesser Man; implying that a Numenorean Ruler would "wear out" 5 times as slowly as a Lesser Man. So (on this hypothesis) when Vardamir Nolimon became King at age 381, that age has to be divided by 5 (= 76.2) to find the equivalent age for a Lesser man. (A complication is that Anardil, born 700 S. A., in 725 is presumably 25 years of age, but not 5 years old in vitality; in 800, he is 100 years of age, but (presumably) has the vitality of a man aged 20, or 1/5 of a 100.

Bearing all this mind, ISTM that Elendil's premature death in battle, at 322, needs to be divided by 5 or 4 or 3. The respective ages resulting would be: 64.4, 80.5, or 107.3 & a bit. STM death in battle at 64 makes sense, & that the others are too old. This would imply that the Lords of Andunie retained their long lives even when the Kings did not, & lived five times as long as Lesser Men. If Elendil died prematurely at 322, this suggests his age should be divided by 5 - IOW, he had the vitality of a Lesser Man aged 64. On this hypothesis, the premature death of Isildur at 234 is equivalent to 234 - 5 = 46.8. IOW, he had the vitality of a Lesser Man aged almost 47.

Meneldil of Gondor was 281 (= 123 years of life in Second Age + 158 years in the Third Age). His cousin Valandil lived 260 years (3430 S.A. + 249 T.A). As Meneldil, unlike Valandil, was born in Numenor, he may have been born with an inbuilt resistance to loss of vitality that Valandil, born in Middle Earth, lacked. So - piling speculation on speculation ! - Meneldil's age may be divisible by 4 (to make 70) or 3 (to make 90). Valandil's age of 260 amounts to a Lesser Man's lifespan of almost 87 (3 x 87 = 261), of 65 (4 x 65 = 260), or of 52 (5 = 52 = 260). The waning in vitality or in lifespan or in both seems to begin soon after the birth of Meneldil in 3318, but to be slow, and not constant.

This would provide background for interpreting Aragorn's age, and therefore, Faramir's. Cirion the Steward had been Steward from 2489 to 2567 - 78 years, or almost 2/3 of Faramir's life of 120 years. So the Stewards, even under the Shadow in Middle Earth, seem to have retained their vitality until late in the Third Age. Even if Cirion was a young man when he became Steward, 78 years is a long time. It would help if we knew whether (as with the later Rulers of Numenor) the power passed from aged Stewards to their successors: there are a lot of questions of constitutional law in the Numenorean kingdoms that are not spelled out. Answers to them might resolve some of the contradictions - like the one about when Tar-Minastir reigned.

One big question I would love an answer to: is the environment & its effect on lifespans, etc., to be understood as a self-contained natural force - or is it a way of describing the action of the Valar upon the world ? When the lifespans of the Kings "wane" in Numenor, is that because of the kind of environmental change a weather-man could study; or is it, instead, the result of the action of the Valar ? What is the relation between the Valar, and events in Arda ?

Are the ages of Aragorn's ancestors "canonical" ? I've read some of the HoME, but not all. It can't all be canonical.

BTW, that essay at http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/Decl...umenoreans.htm is outstanding

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

This would imply that the Lords of Andunie retained their long lives even when the Kings did not, & lived five times as long as Lesser Men.

They certainly did have longer lifespans that the Kings I would think due to the effect of the rebellion on the King's Men specifically. The deterioration of their lifespans coincided with their grasping for longer and/or eternal life.

"The lives of the Kings of the House of Elros waned because of their REBELLION" [Sil, p. 330]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

If Elendil died prematurely at 322, this suggests his age should be divided by 5 - IOW, he had the vitality of a Lesser Man aged 64.

Are you assuming here that 322 is comparable to 64 in the Middle Men? I'm not sure if this is the case. The Dunedain as I know it did not age as other men did, lifespan aside.

"The first approach of 'world-weariness' was indeed A SIGN for them that their PERIOD OF VIGOUR was nearing its end. When it came TO AN END, if they PERSISTED IN LIVING, then DECAY WOULD PROCEED, as growth had done, NO MORE SLOWLY than among OTHER MEN." [UT, p. 236]

Only after this sign [world-weariness] would they begin to get old like other Men. A note is mentioned where it is said that the end of vigour would be around 400 or earlier, & 200 or later for the line of Elros and other Dunedain respectively. [236-237] I think even when their lifespans were almost as those of other men their vigour still held longer than other men.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

As Meneldil, unlike Valandil, was born in Numenor, he may have been born with an inbuilt resistance to loss of vitality that Valandil, born in Middle Earth, lacked. So - piling speculation on speculation ! -

I would not say he had less vitality. One was longer lived than the other, but they would both remain vital deep into their lifespans. It's not like the one with the lesser years grew weaker earlier in his lifespan than the other did in his. Unlike the few Nobles in Gondor who kept their vitality deeper into their lifespans which were close to normal men, who became weaker earlier into their lifespans.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

Meneldil's age may be divisible by 4 (to make 70) or 3 (to make 90). Valandil's age of 260 amounts to a Lesser Man's lifespan of almost 87 (3 x 87 = 261), of 65 (4 x 65 = 260), or of 52 (5 = 52 = 260). The waning in vitality or in lifespan or in both seems to begin soon after the birth of Meneldil in 3318, but to be slow, and not constant.

I'm looking at the line of the Kings of the Mark for a guage of the ages of normal Men and from Eorl to Theoden the span of life for these kings are: 60, 58, 101 [Aldor the Old], 89, 86, 80, 74, 73, 68, 72, 90, 71, 60, 73, 83, 75, & 71.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

This would provide background for interpreting Aragorn's age, and therefore, Faramir's. Cirion the Steward had been Steward from 2489 to 2567 - 78 years, or almost 2/3 of Faramir's life of 120 years. So the Stewards, even under the Shadow in Middle Earth, seem to have retained their vitality until late in the Third Age.

The House of the Stewards were certainly one of the purest houses in Gondor, "they were ultimately of royal origin, and had in any case kept their blood more pure than most other families in the later ages" [People of Middle-earth, ch. 7] It is also said of the noble families in Gondor, "indeed the span of their lives had waned to little more than that of other men, and those among them who passed the tale of five score years with vigour were grown few, save in some houses of purer blood." [TotK, p. 149]

I mentioned before about the behavior of the Dunedain having some contribution to their lengthy years. In a note in Unfinished Tales it is said, "the increase in the Numenorean span was brought about by ASSIMILATION of their MODE OF LIFE to THAT OF THE ELDAR" [235] Notably Aragorn and Faramir seem to have this assimilation, especially Aragorn who was raised in Elrond's house.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

Even if Cirion was a young man when he became Steward, 78 years is a long time. It would help if we knew whether (as with the later Rulers of Numenor) the power passed from aged Stewards to their successors: there are a lot of questions of constitutional law in the Numenorean kingdoms that are not spelled out.

Cirion was 118 when he died and I think he was one of the better ruling Stewards of Gondor. He was ever watchful and called for aid when he saw the movement of his enemies and according to Eorl, "in Cirion Eorl saw the HIGHEST and NOBLEST man of THE WORLD that HE KNEW, and the WISEST, on whom sat the MAJESTY of KINGS OF MEN of long ago." [UT, p. 317] Like his descendants in Faramir and Denethor he appeared in every which way a Numenorean.

I'm not sure what you mean by the passing of power here, but the Stewards all shared the same powers, although their worldly power varied according to the times as regards the realm of Gondor itself. The passing of office itself for the Stewards was a bit different than with the Kings because it could pass in the female like, even though the Kings of Anor and Gondor were from the female line being of the House of Andunie. So if the Steward left no son it could pass to his aunt's son or his sister's son. The council of Gondor had a hand in this choice. If the Stweard had a son the council had no power to choose.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

Answers to them might resolve some of the contradictions - like the one about when Tar-Minastir reigned.

You mean as regards to succession to the throne?

Originally Posted by Saurondil

is the environment & its effect on lifespans, etc., to be understood as a self-contained natural force - or is it a way of describing the action of the Valar upon the world ?

I think it's the way of the world. This is why the Valar created Aman, the Undying Lands, and hollowed it out and all so it is unlike the rest of Arda. This is why it is home to the Elves who're doomed to live as long as Arda survives and why Feanor's grandson and his boys were dupped into creating the Rings of Power by Sauron so that they could bring Aman to Middle-earth and stop waning and decay, etc. The Valar do have a part to play I think. At times they turn to Eru as in the case with the Rebellion in Numenor.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

When the lifespans of the Kings "wane" in Numenor, is that because of the kind of environmental change a weather-man could study; or is it, instead, the result of the action of the Valar ? What is the relation between the Valar, and events in Arda ?

I believe the Valar withdrew their gifts from the High Men due to their rebellion. They give and slowly take away and I think it was a combo when the exiles in M-E had to deal with the natural waning of M-E and the gradual withdrawing of their gifts by the Valar.

Originally Posted by Saurondil

Are the ages of Aragorn's ancestors "canonical" ? I've read some of the HoME, but not all. It can't all be canonical.

I got those from The People's of Middle Earth and they seem like they would probably coincide with the dates in the Tale of Years.