Marriage!

[Boromir88]

There's a lot of different marraiges in Tolkien's books. The one's that really stuck out the most were with these Teleri men (partially being discussed in another thread, so here's a thread to them).

You have Melian the maia marry Thingol, and Galadriel the Noldor marry Celeborn. So what do these powerful women see in these much weaker Teleri men? Could it be Tolkien trying to show marriages between different classes? Or is it just these romantic, singing, Teleri studs know how to work the women?

Some other marriages I would like to mention Sam and Rosie. I mean 13 kids? They must have really liked it. Also, with the Dunedain, now I believe they did not believe in "intermarriaging" (yes I made that up, I can't think of the right word right now). The kept their marriages strictly within their own race, another point I think Tolkien is trying to show.

Have at it...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, there are certainly a lot of different characters in the stories, hence a lot of marriages. If they were all the same then it would get a bit dull. But you're right, Tolkien put a lot of variety into these unions.

[yavanna II]

Well maybe JRRT was thinkimng of those political marriages, yoou know, like Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI.... the extravagant and the stupid.
Oh wait.... that's a poor example. try the intermarriages of AUstria-Hungary. A bit like Melian & THingol. A rich & powerful man's daughter is married to a monarch of some nowhere to increase those things called bonds. Thingol marrying Mel to have/attain wisdom.

Of course Mel & thing have no parents....

[Saurreg]

I've always wondered why there were unions between human males and elven females and not between elven males and human females...

[yavanna II]

Saurreg, I think I can answer that.

Elf Women are beautiful, more than mortals. Remember the nature of Elves as the fairest?
Elf Men are too proud of themselves(they think they're really cute)to marry mortal maidens.

No mortal was as beautiful as an elf maid save Morwen of the House of Beor.
No elf bothered to court those mortals.
And they didn't want a wife who would eventually die while they live forever.
that is unless they're slain....

Mortal men had guts to court elf maids coz they don't have much pride.
Some of them think that mortals are just, you know, second to the fairest ....
Beren, I think, knew Luthien as fairest since he didn't get a chance to see Idril, Galadriel,etc

And as for Aragorn, I think if Arwen was not Elrond's daughter[let's say Thranduil's] he wouldn't dare. Arwen was part mortal, right?

[Mithalwen]

I always thought that the 13 children was a bit excessive ..... like saying "Sam was 300% heterosexual despite his devotion to Mr Frodo.... "

As for the intermarrying of elves and men ... I might say that all women marry beneath them... lol but you could speculate that compared to the androgynous elven men the mortals might have seemed really hunky and oozing testosterone.... also Melian might have started a genetic tendency to marry down?

Another factor is the enclosed communities that they lived in (Doriath, Gondolin...) like changing schools at sixteen or going to uni and suddenly there are loads of guys around who you don't remember as ten year olds.....much more appealing.... probably a tendency nature encourages to widen the gene pool....

[Encaitare]

And as for Aragorn, I think if Arwen was not Elrond's daughter[let's say Thranduil's] he wouldn't dare. Arwen was part mortal, right?

Indeed. Since she was the child of Elrond the Half-elven (actually I think someone here figured it out to be nine-sixteenths ) who got to choose between mortality and immortality, she too got that choice. I agree, though; if Arwen was entirely elven it is less likely that Aragorn would have pursued a relationship with her. Plus, the fact that he had Elrond's love and trust was doubtless helpful; he didn't have to go through that troublesome confrontation of the guy meeting his girlfriend's intimidating dad!

[Elianna]

As for Galadriel and Celeborn, the answer could simply lie in surprisingly limited choices. Assuming she married after leaving Valinor: All the Vanyar were still in Valinor. Of the Noldor, elves of the House of Finarfin are excluded (too closly related, duh), and she was "unfriends" with Fëanor, so his desendants were also excluded. This leaves the House of Fingolfin, to which she probably felt herself too closly related to.
That leaves the Teleri. In the standing of Teleri, Celeborn was high up, Thingol's nephew. (Of course, being Thingol's nephew makes Celeborn and Galadriel each other's first cousin once removed, which is still too close if you ask me, but oh well.)

Originally posted by Mithalwen:...you might speculate compared to the androgynous elven men...

That's only Orli-Lego. There were plenty of masculine elven men. Gil-galad, Celebrimbor, Thranduil, Echthelion, Glorfindel......

As for Melian..............she was just weird.........

[Gil-Galad]

One thing that bother me on this topic is in some of the small rpg's i run offsite, i have alot of people being Sarumans daughter... a child of an elf lady and a man...man andi keep thinking that they would be rather seperated and this could not happen...eventually my complaining got me kicked out of these groups for "disrupting" the rpg's...

[Lalaith]

Teleri men wouldn't necessarily be weak, they just had different priorities to the Noldor.
There was a mortal woman who had a love affair with an elf, she was called Andreth and he was Aegnor (Galadriel's brother I think?) But it didn't work out.

And in defence of Sam and Rosie, a family of thirteen children was not particularly excessive in Georgian and Victorian England. (Look at how many children the Old Took had, btw)
Most couples had a lot of babies (no contraception!) but often not all survived the childhood illnesses and post-natal complications that abounded in the days before innoculations, antibiotics and so on.
Some families, however, due to perhaps a combination of genetic luck, better access to healthcare and good parenting, did manage to bring all or most of their children to adulthood. The Gamgees were clearly in this category!

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

There was a mortal woman who had a love affair with an elf, she was called Andreth and he was Aegnor (Galadriel's brother I think?) But it didn't work out.

Really? Guess I was wrong after all. Though If I were to pull a yavanna II, I would say that Aegnor thought that he was too pretty for Andreth.

Aegnor was the brother of Galadriel I think. He, Finrod, Angrod and Galadriel were all children of Finarfin.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Some interesting thoughts here! If you'd like to read previous threads on the topic of Marriage in Middle-earth, look here: Thread I (happy) and Thread II (unhappy). Enjoy!

[Lalaith]

Ah yes, thank you Estelyn, those were great threads...

I've found this article about Tolkien's attitude to marriage and sex, in both his writings and personal life, which I thought very interesting. (Don't worry, esteemed moderator Princess Estelyn, it's scholarly and quite family friendly. )

[Essex]

re Sam's and Rosie's children

I always thought that the 13 children was a bit excessive

Remember that the hobbits were seen to be Tolkien's 'Common Men'. In Tolkien's days, having a multitude of kids was not uncommon at all. Indeed, my grandparents on both sides, living around the same time as JRR, had approximately 10 kids each. So 13 kids for Sam is not excessive to me, but I've got 2 myself and I admit that's enough for me!

[Lhunardawen]

I have always felt saddened (and frankly, annoyed) by the pure Numenoreans' intermarriage with others. I believe this is one of the factors that led to the downfall of the race. But come to think of it: Faramir, who relatively carries a lot of Numenorean blood (a loose translation ) would not have married Eowyn!

[Saurreg]

Lhunardawen, while I agree that intermarriages between the Dúnadain and men of lesser stature resulted in the dilution of pure Dúnadan blood and caused the lost of "potency", I also believe the outcome of each union depended on whom the Dúnadains married.

I think that the hybrid offspring of two people of different races tend to recieve the best characteristics and traits of the two. Take Eldacar for instance, his father Valacar was of pure Dúnadan blood but mother was Vidumavi of the Northlands. Not only did Eldacar retain the desirable traits of of the Dúnadain, he also added the fearless courage and spirit of his mother's people to the family gene pool.

[Mithalwen]

Err there was a smiley by my comment about the thirteen children indicating it wasn't intended to be taken QUITE so seriously ..... my grandmother was one of 12 surviving children, other branches were hit harder by infant mortality ......

However I think 13 is excessive, sorry ...... think about what it entails ...... I have a friend who is one of 15....... and her mother had a drudge's life married to a man whose contribution to the children didn't go beyond conception.

For me, Rosie just typifies the miserably limited lives women had until very recently in the West and still have in many parts of the world, the only plus is that she is married to a decent man.... Sam has social mobility but Rose is just a better class of skivvy ........

[Encaitare]

For me, Rosie just typifies the miserably limited lives women had until very recently in the West and still have in many parts of the world, the only plus is that she is married to a decent man.... Sam has social mobility but Rose is just a better class of skivvy ........

Perhaps, perhaps. But I like to think of Sam and Rosie as the happy, adorable couple that the movie portrays them as, and Sam's loyalty and love proves that he would play a major part in the upbringing of the children (when not tending to his super-important mayor duties, of course ).

[Mithalwen]

well I have just read a posting on the the thread for the barrowdowners of riper years which seems to agree with me ..... and what happened to all the kids they didn't take to Gondor....... And it seems to me that Rosie and the children play second fiddle to Frodo always ...when Frodo leaves, Sam wants to go to .. - I think it was interesting that Tolkien originally made Sam's last line "Well I've come back" ...

[Encaitare]

And it seems to me that Rosie and the children play second fiddle to Frodo always

That's very true. I wonder what the kids thought when Sam eventually left.

[Mithalwen]

Yes, that is what I thought ..... I mean I know Mery and Pippin went south... but somehow that wasn't so final ... but it was almost as if he was witing for her to die so he could rejoin Mr Frodo ... they must have felt rejected.....

[Encaitare]

Hopefully Sam wasn't so obvious about it! All "Hey, Rosie, will ya hurry up and die so I can go be with Frodo? Please?" Let's hope he let the children down easily too. Oh well, the youngest was already 40 by the time he left, so it wasn't as though he simply left them to fend for themselves.

[Mithalwen]

Yes but it is still choosing Frodo over his children and grandchildren....

[Encaitare]

Indeed it is, and I wonder if Sam ever regretted his choice to leave the Shire. Although he was doubtless very happy in the Undying Lands, he left so much behind. I wonder if he ever missed it.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Wow, I'd never though of Sam in quite that light before! Thanks for providing something new to bend my head around!

I like to live in my own happy little world where Sam and Rosie are a very happy couple. I think that Sam would have made a wonderful father and husband... I saw his devotion to Frodo as an indication of his behavior towards anyone or anything that he loved... He was very devoted to saving the Shire, generous with his gift from Galadriel in order to make the Shire a better place and help to bring back some of what was lost in the time under Saruman. I like to think that he would have given Rosie the same love and devotion he gave to everything else he cared about... And Rosie had 13 children with him. I can't imagine her having so many children if she didn't love him back, or felt slighted in any way. I think that if she had felt that she took second priority to Frodo, she would have stopped saying "yes" or suggesting to have more herself. I truly can't see Sam as anything but a devoted, loving, caring husband. He's such a sweet, kindhearted guy.

In the book "Sauron Defeated", part of the History of Lord of the Rings, there is a very nice epilogue that never went into the book (but I like the book just fine the way it is!) that shows Sam with his children recieveing a letter from Aragorn... it's been a while since I read it, but I never saw anything indicating that he gave less love to his children than they deserved, at least that I can remember.

..."Well, I'm back"... What that is to me is an indication that Sam has really come home to stay. An acceptance of the fact that Frodo was gone, and that he would have to be "one and whole" in his life with Rosie...and a willingness to do so, a peace and happiness in his family (Rosie had set Elanor in his lap just before he said that). He didn't say, "Well, I'm back" at any point while Frodo was still around...and it was only after he left that Sam really came home to his family...and they had many happy years together. I think that maybe "Well, I've come back" as mentioned earlier by Mithalwen would have better conveyed that, but "well, I'm back" has a nice ring to it... and for me that sentiment, the feeling behind that of really coming home as he had perhaps not done in the years Frodo was still with him, remains.

[Encaitare]

You provide a great comment as well... it makes me think that "Well, I'm back" is more than it sounds. Seems that it means he's fully back and ready to devote his full attention and love to his family... although he eventually leaves them, it does not mean that he loves them any less.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Yes but it is still choosing Frodo over his children and grandchildren....

There is an interesting thread here discussing the conscious decisions made by Sam and (more particularly) Arwen to leave their children:

Why did Arwen do that??

[Mithalwen]

Funnily enough, I have just read that. However it might lead to yet more unfortunate speculation about the Frodo/Sam relationship. It is one thing to leave your children to seek reunion with your husband and quite another to leave them for your friend.

[Boromir88]

I always wondered, from the movie, when Frodo and Sam are lying on a rock and the screen goes black, at first I thought nothing about it. Then we get to Frodo lying in a bed, and there's that weird grin at eachother and Frodo just sits and looks like "ya that's right, remember?"....just makes me wonder if....na couldn't have happened I mean 13 KIDS!!!! Sam has to like it!!!

Originally Posted by Encaitare

Indeed it is, and I wonder if Sam ever regretted his choice to leave the Shire. Although he was doubtless very happy in the Undying Lands, he left so much behind. I wonder if he ever missed it.

One thing that does not seem to have been mentioned is that Sam was a ringbearer, if only for a short time. He probably felt some form of loss when the Ring was destroyed, and for his part he was due some reward in the undying lands when the thing that bound him to middle earth most (Rosie) passed away.

Sam was given the opportunity to sail with Legolas and Gimli (I believe it was with them), Rosie was dead, his children were grown up, he was an old Hobbit, nearing the end of his life, had suffered for his part in the fate of middle earth. I don't see any real betrayal or love of Frodo superior to his love to Rosie in Sam's actions.

I am not a scholar of World War I, but from the few books I have read and plays seen, the common theme of love / respect / friendship / duty between an Officer and his men, following him to certain doom blah blah blah fits the Frodo Sam story of the Lord of the Rings, and the final part must be either the death of the both, or reuniting.

I have jsut had an odd thought, prompted by the above; we know that the hobbits and Gimli are mortal, and thier mortality continues even in the Undying lands, and that Frodo was in serious pain when he left Middle Earth, it is possible that Frodo had passed through his dream of music and his life had passed when Sam arrived. Does not really fit with the conceit of the relationship between them, but is still a possibility.

[Encaitare]

One thing that does not seem to have been mentioned is that Sam was a ringbearer, if only for a short time. He probably felt some form of loss when the Ring was destroyed, and for his part he was due some reward in the undying lands when the thing that bound him to middle earth most (Rosie) passed away.

Well said, shia'tan! He probably did feel a small loss, since the thought of taking the Ring for his own and using it to become powerful (albeit with good intentions) did cross his mind.

it is possible that Frodo had passed through his dream of music and his life had passed when Sam arrived. Does not really fit with the conceit of the relationship between them, but is still a possibility.

Aw, but that's so sad! Well, I looked up the dates and did the math, and determined that Frodo would have been 114 by the time Sam joined him. Since hobbits can live to be well over 100, and living in the Undying Lands would probably bring longer life even to mortals, I think it's safe to say that Frodo was still alive, although very old.