Must...Obey...Gremlin!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

This thread shall concern itself with the treatment of Eomer son of Eomund by the soldiers of Rohan.

When Eomer is outlawed by Grima, he is punched and generally treated roughly by the soldiers who are obviously acting under the will of Grima, who has taken power.

In the book, of course, he was put in prison by Theoden under the guidance of Grima. However, let's stick to the film here.

Why on Middle-earth did the soldiers punch Eomer? I know, we'd all love to punch our boss but come on, this is Eomer we're talking about. All-round great guy and clearly loved by the people of Rohan. I don't think the soldiers should have been portrayed as so easy for Grima to work. I know Hama was shown as not being fond of Grima but I don't think this makes up for it. Especially considering the utterly ridiculous fight sequence when Gandalf needs to get to Theoden and Gorn, Legolas and Gimli start to destroy several of the hapless guards.

What I'm getting at here is this; I don't think the situation in Rohan was dealt with as sensitively as it should have been. Were the soldiers of the King really mindless drones staggering around Meduseld chanting "Must...Obey...Gremlin? I don't think so.

Am I nitpicking? Certainly. But get used to it, it's what I do!


*To note, just so there's absolutely no confusion, the Gremlin in question is Grima.*

[mark12_30]

Purely from a movie perspective:

I agree that it sounds ridiculous looking only at Grima-lin. But (in movie-terms) Theoden was **posessed** (in movie terms) by Saruman; Eomer protested that orcs roamed unopposed throughout the lands. What normal man-at-arms, what normal farmer, horse-herder, husband or father, would let orcs roam unopposed? Just how sleepy Rohan had become under Grima's 'counsel'? Too sleepy; but Grima(lin)'s counsel was undergirded by Saruman's 'sleeeep, my pretty, sleeeeep.' It took Gandalf to wake 'em up.

Purely from a movie perspective.

The book perspective is more powerful to me; one of Tolkien's major literary themes is the enduringly destructive power of a lie. In the book, whenever there is a Liar whether it be Morgoth or Saruman or Grima, there were still 'faithful' to be found (in Grima's case Hama, Eomer, others; ) nevertheless, Grima's whispers to the king were the sole poison that brought the nation to its ..... sleeeeep.

"THe tongue has the power of life and death..."

[Imladris]

My thoughts are based strictly from the movies.

I believe that it is illogical to assume that everybody loved and respected Eomer. To know that for certain one would have had to canvass the entire nation of Rohan, asking every person what they thought of Eomer. Therefore, it is logical to assume that there were certain people (Grima, for instance) who disliked Eomer and would have been extremely happy to have seen him punched and ill treated.

It is also logical to assume that Grima went around the troops finding those who could be easily swayed with lies (I do believe that the movie mentioned and showed to a small extent that Grima was a liar) or who already had a dislike for Eomer. Thus with poisoned words and lies, he could gradually build up his own little army around the king to deal with people like Eomer and Gandalf (remember, this is purely from the movie perspective). Having his own little army would make sure that King Theoden "stayed in line" as it were and didn't become conscious of the lies, etc.

Those are my speculations on the subject. It seems to me that is what traitors do: they go aroud finding people to agree with them. Then through intrigue and whatnot they try to come to power etc. Grima is, in a word, a traitor thus it is logical that he would do that from a movie perspective.

So no, Eomer. The soldiers were probably not mindless drones. They were probably just Grima's henchman -- as well as stuntman to provide the viewer with edge on their seats suspense! *cough*

As it is, of course, that's not what happened in the book. Grima poisoned the king, the soldiers disliked it but couldn't do anything about it, etc. etc. etc. But...this is a movie...not a book...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Two brief points:

1) PJ's changes frequently make little sense, even in the 3 movies internal story logic, save to get more immdiate "action" and plot resolution. Consider the
biggest movie travesty, Gandalf (twice) mugging Denethor while Denethor's elite guards do nothing, the guards disinterest is ridiculous even forgetting this absurd treatment of Gandalf's character and the mandate of the Istari not to interfere or dominate Middle-earth peoples.

2) In the TTT, it's Wormtongue's thugs that are attacked by Leggy and friends,
Theoden's guards were prepared to whack Strider, Gimli, and Legolas until Hama restrained them.

[Meneltarmacil]

Now, I was just wondering...

Did these particular soldiers (Grima's former henchmen), when they saw what happened to Theoden and learned of the threat of Isengard, did they fight for Theoden at Helm's Deep?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The movie does not tell us, but we can probably assume that they did fight at the Hornburg.

Tuor, I had thought that it was just Gamling who was restrained by Hama, purely because he was standing right next to him and it would be easy for him to stop him.

This easy corruption of the Rohirrim is hard for me to digest. From what we can gather of Eomer and the Rohirrim from the book, it seems that Eomer was a well-liked character. The appendices tell us that he was not an ambitious man, that he was not too interested in glory (a fault in some of Tolkien's warriors, and a trait which may not endear to the average soldier).

I think it is probable that the filmmakers had to give Grima some henchmen because otherwise, nothing would compel Eomer to leave Meduseld. In the book, of course, it was the King himself who ordered him to prison. I suppose this discussion turns again to why the Director invented this storyline instead of going by the book.

[Essex]

Ok, let's say that these men are part of Grima's force, not rohirrim, but men in the service of SARUMAN. What's to stop them dressing in rohan armour? The term mercenaries comes to mind.

Theoden's guards who tried to intervene against legolas/aragorn/gimli were only doing what they thought was their duty, like it or not. They were not present when Eomer was 'whacked'.

PS regarding Denethor being 'mugged' by Gandalf. Look at the book. You will see a line where Gandalf DOES 'attack' Denethor. You just need to look closely at the text, and you usually find clues to (most) of Jackson's changes. Not that I agree with Denethor being hit by gandalf's wand of course........

But Gandalf sprang up the steps, and the men fell back from him and covered their eyes; for his coming was like the incoming of a white light into a dark place, and he came with great anger. He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.

do we see denethor's soldiers defend gandalf? no, we do not.......

[Boromir88]

PJ did TWO BIG things that really bothered me from these movies, one was with Eomer, the other Denethor.

Eomer was one of the more pivotal Rohan soldiers, you can even make an argument that in the story Eomer was even a more "powerful" character then Theoden. As already stated Eomer is loved by his people, probably just as much as Theoden is loved. During Helm's Deep, Theoden didn't do much, besides him making the decision of "Riding out" I can't think of a time when he did something. Maybe the reason is Theoden just recently became free of Saruman. Eventhough the book talks nothing of a "transformation," but there was no doubt he was under Saruman's control. Eomer on the other hand had been off fighting before Helm's deep, and now during Helm's deep he's off right in the thick of action, getting his butt saved by Gimli. Theoden's real glory came out during Pelennor fields, when he slayed a Haradrim Champion to his final death. Again, Eomer takes the glory, rallying the people around Theoden's body, then my favorite lines come into play.

Eomer to Aragorn: Let this be the hour when we draw swords together.

The movie has Theoden say many of Eomer's lines, I adore Theoden, he is one of my favorite characters but PJ give Eomer some credit. I mean come one, Rohan Soldier #35 gets more action then Eomer. It's like PJ just told Eomer to stand behind a pole while filming. Bernard Hill did a great job as Theoden but I always pictured him older then the movie made him. In "The King of the Golden Hall," Theoden was called "old king" many times and walks with a cane. When he decides to listen to Gandalf he drops his cane and stands up straight again, as it states...

King of the Golden Hall
From the King's hand the black staff fell clattering on the stones. He drew himself up, slowly, as a man that is stiff from long bending over some dull toil. Now tall and straight he stood, and his eyes were blue as he looked into the opening sky.

So there seems to be a new "look" to Theoden, instead of this old bent man, but I still tend to think he didn't "decling in age" atleast didn't appear to "decline." As the movie shows. I can see my babblings have gone on long enough, I will spare everyone my ramblings about Denethor, that has been discussed many times, there are many threads about that, and my view on anything said about Denethor is clearly made. Also this thread is about Eomer.

[Boromir88]

I agree Essex I only saw them as Saruman or Grima's henchmen, not Rohirrim. With the exclusion of the "Scouring of the Shire" these guys that Aragorn and Company beat up makes me think of the Ruffians that took over the Shire with "Sharkey." Not actual Rohirrim. Theoden's guard were the ones in chainmail, in which I believe Hama was the captain until he died, then Gamling was the captain. The guy's in tattered clothing I believe are the "Ruffians" that take over the shire.

Now, you got me started about Hama. What? Why did PJ have to kill Hama 10 minutes into the movie with the "fake warg rider" attack. Give the man his glory and rightful burial after dying at Helm's deep.

Lastly, Eomer

This easy corruption of the Rohirrim is hard for me to digest.

I hope you haven't forgotten the easy corruption of the Rohirrim when they visited Saruman. Oh yes, Saruman had the Rohirrim cheering in praise until Theoden and Eomer flat out rejected him, ahhh so dissappointed that wasn't in the movie, hopefully it will be in the EE. I mean if Saruman shoots flaming balls out of his staff they better put in his attempts at "corrupting" the Rohirrim and others.

[Essex]

Boromir, you may (just) be in luck. I remember during an mtv award last year that they had a video piece shot in dunharrow where bernard hill said to viggo mortensen, (in their costumes) "Let this be the hour when we draw swords together" before than ran off to attack PJ as a joke.

So obviously they were aware of this line, and I think this gives us hope that it may be in the extended edition. (though whether it's eomer saying it to aragorn is another matter)

[Boromir88]

Well Essex the line is used in TTT, when Theoden is just about to charge out. He puts his arm on Aragorn "Let this be the hour..." It would be funny if they had it again though lol.

[Essex]

whoops! silly me, I've probably blanked that scene out as it's one of the changes that really bugs me inasmuch as it's Aragorn's idea to ride out, not theoden's. I always remember this from the book (and in particular the bakshki cartoon) where we can see Aragorn, the soon to be King of Gondor, agreeing to a certain death in the aid of Theoden King. It also shows Theoden's stance that he will not give in to the orcs, not just him to agreeing to a request from Aragorn.

sorry for hijacking your thread, Eomer.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

There is no need for apologies Essex, tangents are more than welcome! (especially when they are interesting tangents like that one).

Boromir, I realise that Saruman found it easy to corrupt the Rohirrim. However, in Meduseld, and without Saruman, I find it unlikely that Grima could hold such sway. However, I like your point about the difference in attire. Could be a crucial factor here.

[Sandro]

Yeah, they have to be mercenarys. When Gandalf and co. approach Theoden's throne, they are stalked my Grima's men. they look swarthy, much like cleaned-up Dunlendings.

Someone said that Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli attacked Grima's men. They do not. Grima says, "I told you to get his staff.," and the thugs attack them.

I missed Eomer too, especially in Return of the King at the Pellenor. His biggest move: spearing the Haradrim captain. Gamling is around more.

Plus, I think some people are forgetting that not all the soldiers of Rohan are pure people. They are men and have men's weaknesses. I'm sure Grima could coerce a few soldiers to work for Saruman under promises of land, power, or wealth.

[Boromir88]

I would agree with you Eomer, Saruman could hold a lot of power, since he is known for corrupting, and a persuasive voice. Where Grima, ahhh Grima, was in Saruman's pockets and "poisoned" the mind of the king in some way, but I tend to think it wasn't how the movie portrayed it. Theoden willingly listened to Gandalf, and as I said earlier there was no such "transformation" or "age declining" as the movie shows. I agree, I doubt Grima could have held that much power against Theoden, a few words from Gandalf like "stand up look outside...etc" and Theoden becomes the Theoden we love.

[Encaitare]

Were the soldiers of the King really mindless drones staggering around Meduseld chanting "Must...Obey...Gremlin?

Well, that's what I do... sneaky little worm...

I know this is a movie-discussion, but I can't help but bring up that line in the book where one of the Rohirrim says that if Wormtongue were there, he would know what to do. This implies that despite his obvious inclination to evil and lack of hygiene, he was at a time, a good councilor, and was always a very firm and decisive one. I agree that he probably did have "thugs" in the court who he swayed to his will, although I doubt they were sent by Saruman himself.

As for the original question, why the guards punched Eomer, perhaps Grima fed them lies about him, making him out to be a traitor, or something of that ilk. We do know that he has a tricksy way with words...