Elrond, why?

Ok, I don't know if this topic has been discussed before, but in the Fellowship of the Ring, when Gandalf and Elrond are talking at Rivendell, Elrond recalled when he was with Isildur in Mount Doom. He told Isildur to throw it in the fire, but Isildur said , No.

Elrond was more than powerful to stop Isildur, and he knew that if the Ring fell into the wrong hands that it could mean the possible destruction of Middle-Earth. Why did he not stop or at least try to stop Isildur? Did Isildur put on the ring and become invisible to escape? Or was Elrond was unable to hold Isildur back?

Berserk

[The Only Real Estel]

I think Elrond knew that a struggle could mean a death, & he was to pure to kill one of his one, even if to save 1000ands of his people later on.

But Elrond was more honorable than that. Like I said, if he didn't die or kill Isildur then, he knew that if Isildur would rise to power, he would have to face him then. Elrond had more than enough legitimate reasons to fight with Isildur, and they were surrounded by lava. He had numerous chances to throw Isildur into the fire, why didn't he?

Elves are infinately more powerful than men. He could have taken him.

[The Only Real Estel]

He probably could have taken him, but Elrond did not know for sure that Isildur would become evil & rise to power. He would not have wished to slay him when there was still a reasonably good chance of Isildur never becoming evil. Besides, Isildur repented of what he had done & was actually on the way to Rivendell to seek council as to what to do with the Ring when he was ambushed, killed, & the Ring was lost (I am 90% sure it was Rivendell ). So that proves right there that Isildur still had plenty of time to hand the Ring over to another, though he might not have chosen to do that.

I can udnerstand the repentance part, but Elrond wasn't stupid: he knew that the Ring was made for Sauron alone. I mean, Sauron forged it, bringing all of those who possessed a ring that he previously gave under his power.

I tell you again: Elrond wasn't stupid. Whether it be too much power for man to harness or that it was plainly an amazingly evil artifact, he knew that the Ring was not to be taken out of the doorstep of the Mount Doom in its entirety. He knew that the only way to ensure the safety of Middle-Earth, whether he knew Isildur would rise to power or not, was to talk or force Isildur to cast it into the heart of the volcano.

[The Only Real Estel]

to talk or force Isildur to cast it into the heart of the volcano

Which is where the elves natural purity comes in. Anyway, it's a little pointless for just the both of us to continue to post on this thread, so I'm not posting anymoe until somebody else does !

Cheers,
Estel

[Nurumaiel]

I could be terribly short and nasty and say that a very good reason to explain why Elrond didn't kill Isildur is because then there would be no story. However I realize that isn't the point, and I will express my opinion on the matter.

It seems to me that Elrond didn't kill Isildur because he was honourable. It isn't very honourable to kill a comrade, especially one who has just won a battle through heroic courage in facing an ultimate evil. Honour is defined often as virtue, or nobleness, and it is neither virtuous nor noble to ditch someone into a fire to put an end to all problems. Frankly, it isn't good. Elrond never struck me as one who would really agree to, 'The ends justify the means.' Somehow it seems to me that such an action would defeat the whole purpose... to prevent Sauron murdering by murdering yourself? It doesn't seem to fit. It isn't honourable.

[Imladris]

Going from what Nuru said (jolly good post btw) is that Elrond would have committed murder by killing Isildur. I suppose that you could take the argument and say that by not murdering Isildur he was condemning thousands of people to death and that the fate of one was worth the fate of many. But think of it this way: Nobody's lives were in immediate danger from Isildur taking the Ring. Sauron was presumed soundly beaten and I don't think that many people really realized that there was a lot of danger in keeping the Ring. I think that it was a hind site 20/20 in the Councel of Elrond, where everything fell into place. But that is just my opinion from the general tone of Gandalf and Elrond in Shadow of the Past and the Councel of Elrond chapters respectively.

Taking the Ring from Isildur by force also would have caused considerable damage from what Gandalf mentioned in FotR.

If Elrond had killed Isildur it would have been bad form, as Hook would say.

[Encaitare]

I actually have wondered this myself. It seems like a good solution, but it's not in Elrond's nature. And I'm pretty sure you're right, The Only Real Estel, about Rivendell. I do remember reading that Isildur realized he was wrong to keep the Ring, but by then it was too late and he was attacked. See what fun things we learn by reading Unfinished Tales!

[The Only Real Estel]

Elrond never struck me as one who would really agree to, 'The ends justify the means.'

Ah, very well put! That was at least a third of my points in my first few posts right there in a nutshell!

If Elrond had killed Isildur it would have been bad form, as Hook would say

And it wouldn't have been at the opportune moment, as Captain Sparrow would say .

[ninlaith]

Keep a sharp eye! All in all if Elrond had tried to stop Isildur they may have fallen into Mt. Doom itself!

Elrond never struck me as the type who would let absolute evil walk out the door to in order to maintain his purity. Elves are obviously great, wiser, strong and smarter than humans. In my opinion, between saving my purity or letting a powerful human walk out of Mordor with the Ring, I would destroy him. Many died because of Elrond's selfishness.

[Morsul the Dark]

elrond did try to stop him he yelled at him HEHE although I was confused to I mean elves remind me of vulcans(go with me on this) logical fairly unemotional Elrondshould have done more however had he stopped Isuldur how would we have learned about Sam and Frodo's jol;ly adventure through Mordor? Of course Elrond couldn't sop Isuldur because then neither the Hobbit nor LOTR would have taken place

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Elrond merely had a good idea that the Ring would cause problems. He wasn't certain, so he couldn't risk the death of a good friend for an uncertain outcome.

[Nurumaiel]

I feel that even if you would murder for such a cause, Elrond would not. When Tolkien wrote LotR he made a definite point through the actions of his good characters that they were good. Murder is evil, for whatever reason it is done. It would be ridiculous to have a character who is honourable, wise, and good contradict all those things by being dishonourable, unwise, and wicked. Elrond would have to be mad to feel it was his obligation to act as Sauron would by murderering so Sauron wouldn't have to.

Frankly, I can't tell you why Elrond acted the way he did, for I could never see into his mind, but I can give so feasible opinions on when the screenwriters made him do what he did. As they're basing Elrond of Elrond from Tolkien's books it would be a blatant inaccuracy to have him commit murder so Isildur could be stopped.

[The Saucepan Man]

Although this is in the Movies forum, it is worth bearing in mind that the scene in the film was an invention of the film-makers. In the book, they were not at the Crack of Doom but (I think) on the slopes of Mount Doom. So, even had he been so inclined (and I agree with those who have said that he would not for the reasons that they have stated), it wouldn't have been a matter of simply pushing Isildur into the Fire. He would have had to have attacked him. Bearing in mind that they would have been surrounded by their respective armies, that would have been a very unwise move on Elrond's part. Isildur's soldiers were unlikely to have stood around and watched Elrond pummel him to the ground. And the Elvish warriors would not have taken kindly to their intervention. Battle would undoubtedly have ensued. So much for the Last Alliance ...

Another point to bear in mind is that Elrond was not immune to the Ring's effects. Both Galadriel and Gandalf were tempted by it. Elrond would have had little chance of withstanding it there at Mount Doom where it was most powerful, let alone destroying it (Tolkien makes clear that no one could willingly have destroyed it, Bombadil excepted). So, even had Elrond successfully "overcome" his nobility and killed Isildur, and then escaped the ensuing carnage, the Ring was likely to have prevented him from destroying it, even had he attempted to carry Isildur's body to Sammath Naur and drop it in.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Even though Tolkien wrote little about it as a dramatic scene, I still find it emotional to think about Elrond's pain at this moment. Wonderful how, even events that are barely mentioned can make the reader feel so strongly.

[Silmiel of Imladris]

My friends and I have often had a discussion on this topic. What we conclued was that war that would have resulted from Elrond killing Isildur. Not that I am saying he shouldn't of done it, but Elves and men would be at each others throats because Elrond killed the King of men and also wasn't Isilidur's son staying with Elrond (or was that later) so Rivendel would have been attacked. Elves and men would have killed eachother off so all that would be left would be drawves and hobbits. I am not sure that would be a good idea.

[Vanya]

I agree with few last posts; we mustn't mix movie and book. And, war would be inevitable if Elrond attacked Isildur. I think they were very close friends and alies, (and relatives) and even if Elrond did realised at that moment the consequences of Isildur's act, it is normal that he still hasitated. And I think that nobody really knew the nature of the Ring, in details that we know.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

I agree with Vanya...Indeed, I have always been confused over where that scene was derived from...And not having the books with me at the moment I can't even look it up. Just how much of the scene from the film was in the books? (And which books, because I don't remember it being anywhere in Lord of the Rings).

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The movie scene wasn't too bad compared to the book. The only major difference was that the actual book event took place on the slopes of the mountain, as opposed to inside, right next to the fire.

I think there were more people present than just Elrond and Isildur but the point still got across well.

[Angry Hill Troll]

Elrond says the following at the Council (FOTR II, Ch2):

It should have been cast then into Orodruin's fire nigh at hand where it was made. But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-Galad only Círdan stood, and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel.

This scene, it seems to me, was actually portrayed in the movie quite faithfully to the book.

Probably, at the time, the extent of the Ring's corrupting influence was not clearly understood. It was through knowledge of its effect on Isuldur, and later Sméagol, that Gandalf was able to understand its true nature.

[The Only Real Estel]

Probably, at the time, the extent of the Ring's corrupting influence was not clearly understood. It was through knowledge of its effect on Isuldur, and later Sméagol, that Gandalf was able to understand its true nature.

I agree with that for the most part, but I can't say that the movie followed the books account faithfully. Granted, I don't mind the change, but I would assume that just because 'Orodruin's fire was nigh at hand' didn't actually mean that they were inside of Mount Doom. Not to mention that Cirdan wasn't in the movie (understandably). I think PJ could've avoided the main question that started this thread just by having a debate on the slopes of Mt. Doom, but I understand he did it for dramatic reasons.

[Vanya]

Well, that scene certanly made Isildur look like villain, and that was not so. He was victime of his ignorance (he couldn't have known the Ring's nature, and I belive he looked at it as a trophy, a reward, a compensation). He was great man and king, and this event was very unfortunate.
Isildur and Elrond were cousins, after all; it would be more than murder if Elrond slew Isildur.

[Voralphion]

I don't think that Elrond actually could have thrown Isildur into the fire even if he had wanted to. Isildur was one of the mightiest of men at that time, being born and raised in Numenor. He was very strong, and coupled with the fight he would have put up to protect the ring, as he was under its power, Elrond wouldn't have had much of a chance to throw Isidur in.
Elrond couldn't have known what would have resulted if he had let Isildur leave with the ring. He probably thought that Isildur would eventually come to his senses and understand that the ring must be destroyed, which he did. He can't have known that Isildur would be attacked by orcs on his way back to the north and that the ring would be lost.

[Silmiel of Imladris]

Elrond couldn't have known what would have resulted if he had let Isildur leave with the ring.

Posted by Voralphion

I don't know about that, the ring seems to have a "universal" effect on people. Elrond probably expected Isildur to be wise and chuck the ring in, but in a suprising and idiodic move Isildur kept the ring. Elrond did have to use to use foresight or a palantir here for "sadly now there can be but one outcome." Elrond knew things were going to just get worse as I think anyone would with a proper thinking session.

[Vanya]

Yes ,Simiel, if there was time enough for thinking.
The Ring never came in anybody's hands (man or elf) before Sauron was defeated. So, there was no experience on that subject (influence on man).
The Ring probably spoke to Isildur, and it was rush and bad decision which was result of ignorance, primarely. Luckily, he was slain by orcs, before it made real demage to him (turning him inti nazgul or something similar).
I don't think he could have been new Dark Lord, since he couldn't have had the power to wield it. I belive that Elrond sensed that, at least, even if he couldn't prdict the exact outcome

Isuldor was a powerful man, noble in sprit and mind. Elrond could not just say "Do as I say pathetic mortal", the whole thing was about choices, free will and not being subjected to the demands of another (for that was Sauron's desire to dominate all other living creatures).

Another consideration was that Elrond had some inkling of the power of the ring and thought that he may be unable to destroy it and therefore sought for a pure spirit to do the deed. I do not think the second option is viable, but then again, one never knows with pointy ears.

As others have said, Elrond probably had a moment of bad judgement. Yes, he should have made Isildur put the ring into the fire, or pushed Isildur in with it if he wouldn't surrender it. But give the guy a break! He did just fight a no-holds-barred contest with an immortal god. I'm sure he was quite tired after such a conflict and wasn't thinking clearly. Apparently Isildur wasn't thinking clearly either, as is evidenced by his subsequent repentence (see Unfinished Tales) and wasn't just stupid.

Besides Elrond being exhausted, how often have you had a gut feeling that something wasn't right, but went along with it anyway and it turns out that your gut was right? I get them all the time. Elves aren't omniscient (see e.g., the flight of the Noldor in the Silmarillion, they behave like asses), but they do act in a better way more generally than men do.

Another thing, don't believe the movie version. As entertaining as it was, it seemed to me that most of Mr. Jackson's rendering suffered from an excess of exhuberance. That is, in Mr. Jackson's version, it wasn't enough for Elrond to disagree with Isildur about the ring, but he had to SHOUT it at him because he knew that it was terrible and men were weak and stupid.