Numenor and America

[Bombadil]

This topic could end up surpassing my "Was Eru a Sadist" thread in controversy. But I'd like to start off stating that I am American, if that justifies my cynicism about the culture of the USA somewhat I don't know. Earlier I read a thread comparing the tale of Numenor to the British Empire. I'm not saying Tolkien directly symbolizes America because that is not his style of writing. But rather I'd say he wrote a story possibly inspired by the tale of Atlantis that, which does go hand in hand with his style of writing, could be applied to American culture.

I'll start off with an example of the Christian monotheistic view of the majority of America, and how it applies to Meneltarma. (And yes I know that the Dunedain called the Valar Gods, but as i said before I'm suggesting there is symbolism, not that the story is allegorical):

But in the midst of the land was a mountian tall and steep, and it was named the Meneltarma, the Pillar of Heaven, and upon it was a high place that was hallowed to Eru Iluvatar...

Many before among elves and men revered the Valar, but very rarely showed this type of acknowledgement to their true creator. If this were to represent the Christian tendency of America, what would really define the declining moral culture we have today would be shown in:

...and after the days of Tar-Ancalimon the offering of the first fruits to Eru was neglected, and men went seldom any more to the Hallow upon the heights of Meneltarma in the midst of the land.

Perhaps this applies to much of humanity as well as American culture, where one tries to reach out to their God, to confirm their faith, but falls short when they do not receive an answer. The men of Numenor in their decline started lsoing this faith, or drive.

Perhaps the most significant symbol of the USA today is found in the lines:

But those that lived turned the more eagerly to pleasure and revelry, desiring ever more goods and more riches...

This seems to hit dead on with the growing materialistic society bred by marketing and corporate America.

As time went on, the Numenoreans desired to rule more men, which could represent the Imperialistic policy of the United States. Our culture has also become obsessed with trying to live for the longest time possible, as the Dunedain did. With all our Atkins diets, and Jared's (sp?) from Subway, we are driven to stay healthy fit and alive for as long as possible. Much of the symbolism I see in the Akallabeth applies not only to America, but to humanity itself. Was Tolkien (intentionally or unintentionnally) creating his own prophecy? His own Brave New World or 1984 ? What are your thoughts on my theory, and potentially what other symbolism can you apply form the story to our lives?

[Gorwingel]

I agree with much you have said. But then I guess this is about the same as comparing the wars of LOTR to the 1st and 2nd world wars. I think this just goes along with Tolkien's belief system, where the loss of faith, obsession with money and power, and a loss morality always brings bad things to people (Isn't this talked a little about in the Bible?). As you can see I am not a religious scholar in any way, shape or form, and I am probably the worst person in the world to contribute to this discussion. I believe he was intentionally including a moral lesson in the story, but then I also believe that he wasn't intentionally trying to create a prophecy for America, or the world.

[Firefoot]

Much of the symbolism I see in the Akallabeth applies not only to America, but to humanity itself.

In that, I think you hit the nail on the head. It is the way people are, and that is probably what Tolkien was able to see. Perhaps you can see it in America because you are American (as I am, myself), but I would imagine that, given the opportunity to be that way, people in most any country would behave in much the same way. Not all people, but many.

[Bêthberry]

Oh, my, Bombadil, I have a new way of thinking about Mount Rushmore now.

[Imladris]

Oddly, Bombadil , after reading your post, I did not think of Americans (though I full heartedly agree with what you said and how you applied the passages to them) but of the Greeks. I thought of Mount Olympus, of their humanistic values, of their desires (particularly the Romish desire) for pleasure.

But, as everyone else has been saying, Tolkien had a firm grasp of human nature and their tendancy to fall. What he wrote could probably be compared to every culture on this world.

[Mithalwen]

I think, from what I have read in HoME and elsewhere that Numenor was very much inspired by Atlantis. I am sure I read somewhere that in a very approximate fashion the geography of Middle Earth represented an early version of Europe with the Shire as England, Rohan as the germanic lands and Gondor as Italy, the last stronghold of an ancient empire..... the new lands formed in the west after the changing of the world the "New World " of America......

I guess you can apply the story and it is interesting to do this kind of thing ..... but given his claim to detest allegory (which perhaps doesn't entirely stand up to analysis ) I doubt it was his intention.....but of course intentionally or not a writer is likely to give away a lot of his worldview especially when he writes on such a scale - for example it is possible to find an awful lot of Catholicism seeping through - and if a Brit may dare to say so, there is a lot about America that you can imagine the Prof not being to keen on..........(although he was almost certainly NOT the elderly British academic of urban myth who, when visiting the States, replied to the umpteenth person who told him to "Have a nice day" with "I've made other plans".

However I have to disagree about the loss of faith specific to America - I heard about a report last week that alone of the countries of the fully developed world, the US has increasing numbers of people claiming to adhere to a religious faith. In the UK I think only 10% regularly attend church and soon there will be more devout Muslims than Christians - if we haven't reached that point already..... In the developed world suffering was more inclined to make people lose faith (a category I happen to fall into): in the developing world they found the reverse was true.

Generally I think he would have hated the progress of the Sarumans of the world and their "minds of metal and wheels "...... the pragmatism of global industry ....... ........ And in this modern worlds the Sarumans are more dangerous than Saurons.... easier to unite against an obvious monster .... the sweet talkers whose policies are devoid of any principle other than backing the winning side are trickier..... else why would anyone end up fighting a war against a someone they supported and armed a couple of decades ago...... pipeweed may not be a significant commodity anymore but other things pass through pipes ....or pipelines.......

But I have strayed into areas that have previously caused me to receive unwarranted levels of abuse when I expressed my views on them - so maybe I should leave it there...

And I am a enough of a wooly minded liberal to hope that American BD'ers enjoy their Independence Day ..... as long as they aren't the American who (and I swear this is true) asked this Brit how we celebrate the 4th of July in England......

[Saraphim]

I do see similarities between America and Numenor. And, I do forsee America (proverbally or literally) sinking into the sea because of the blind stupidity of its leaders.

But to continue, I find that what has been said before on this thread to hold true. That Tolkien detested allegory and would have never conciously compared the U.S. with Numenor. But, however, we have to look at unconcious allegory. If Tolkien was writing the Akallabeth during the 1960's, there is the Vietnam War to be looking at in comparison of Ar-Pharazon's invasion on Valinor.

I only guess, please refrain from flaming me with combusted trout.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The Akallabêth existed long before the 1960s, I'm afraid. Tolkien was working on it before he started to write The Lord of the Rings.

As has already been mentioned on this thread, the new lands to the West (the Americas - in his fiction literally the New World) came into existence when Númenor was destroyed and the Undying Lands were separated from the rest of the world. Tolkien made explicit comparisons with the ancient Egyptians and with Atlantis, but nowhere in his writings is there any hint that he intended to refer to America. To be quite honest, I doubt that America mattered enough to Tolkien for it to feature largely in his thinking.

However, Tolkien's story of Númenor is certainly applicable to most advanced cultures. It applies to the Egyptian Old Kingdom, to ancient Greece, to Rome, to the British empire and to modern America: people do have a tendency to abandon their spiritual principles, to seek to dominate other people, to become obsessed with longevity, luxury and the accumulation of wealth. Tolkien demonstrates with his Atlantis legend that even the best of Men are still vulnerable to failure and the fall into evil, and that those who are given the greatest gifts are often those who fall the furthest. To apply this to any one society is to deny its universal significance and to reduce its power. It is also, in my opinion, to misinterpret both the author's intentions and his mode of thinking to a quite astounding degree.

[Bombadil]

Good points Squatter, but I'm not trying to say he directly symbolized America:

But rather I'd say he wrote a story possibly inspired by the tale of Atlantis that, which does go hand in hand with his style of writing, could be applied to American culture.

I'm just having some fun applying this story to my culture, for it is the culture (or non-culture) I know best.

[symestreem]

I think the similarities come from the fact that Tolkien was writing about history and life, and in history you can see certain trends. If a fictional history has any resemblance to real life, it will reflect some of these trends.
A well-known cycle of a nation's development lists eleven stages:
1. Bondage
2. Spiritual faith
3. Great courage
4. Liberty
5. Abundance
6. Selfishness
7. Complacency
8. Apathy
9. Moral decay
10. Dependence
11. Bondage

While not all these can be applied specifically to the Numenoreans, the point is that if a country or empire is not conquered from the outside, it will fall from the inside. Neither the Numenoreans were, nor has America been, conquered from the outside. Therefore, they both fell/are falling from the inside. It's part of history.

[lindil]

While by and large I agree both with Squatter and Symestreem, I think there is a special applicability to the Atlantis stories that circulate in Gurdjieff's and other esoteric circles. Eseentially it is that Atlantis was destroyed by playing with powerful technology they had no moral maturity to use. JRRT does not really go there with his Akallabeth, focusing instead on a loss of faith in Eru and his agents, and in a growing arrogance amongst the leaders and apathy amongst the masses. Indeed that might be the aspect of the Akallabeth most applicable to America. The whole country [or selected buildings] will sooner or later reap what the leaders sow. Democracies that become full of sheep will sooner or later be led to the slaughter.

[Selmo]

America as Numenor..........

Does that mean we can look forward to America disapearing beneath the waves?

[The Barrow-Wight]

Does that mean the survivors will wash up on British/European shores and take over?

Let's not get too hopeful that America founders. Afteall, the Downs is located there. Keep your 'anti' thoughts outta my American barrow.

[drigel]

reading this thread makes me realize how one shouldnt analyze JRRT. omg where to begin? Thanks to squatter, symstreme and lindil for inserting some valuable wisdom here that i hope will sink in.... Im not as literate as those guys so this reply isnt as gentle - my apologies. It would be interesting to find out the various political leanings of all the downers, but i would guess its safe to say that we as a group are a little left of center. So my opinion might grate on you guys like a burr in a hobbits lederhosen - sorry again!

its a free world and i appreciate the diverse opinions here but omg the start thread is as wrong as a certain german using Wagner to describe how wonderfull his race was. Its all wrong. period. Atlantis is one of the oldest myths of western civilization.

This seems to hit dead on with the growing materialistic society bred by marketing and corporate America.

whew - well comrade, you might turn off the tv and take a history lesson. We have been a capatalist society since inception

As time went on, the Numenoreans desired to rule more men, which could represent the Imperialistic policy of the United States.

yikes - can you say self loathing? Its lonely at the top son In a lot of ways, America is an extension of western europe. I would say, so far, we have a pretty decent track record when comparing the 2 continents in this regard. It wasnt too long ago when Britain OWNED 1\4 of the WORLD. Last time I checked, it hasnt sunk - you guys let me know if it starts though - there may be some slow moving ents we need to help out!

[The Barrow-Wight]

And with that, we call this one closed.