Lothlorien- self sufficient community?

[Lady Snickerdoodle]

The Mirkwood elves traded with the Lakemen and went hunting, the Rivendell elves let anyone into their valley, but what excuse does Lothlorien have? Looking at it from an economic standpoint, it must be self sufficient because they don't frequently let others pass their borders, ruling out trading, and nowhere does it mention hunting or crop cultivation. It does mention baking lembas but even the hobbits found that got old after a while... So how did that work? Any thoughts? Business reports? Random rantings from people in the wrong thread?

[Morsul the Dark]

well it didt mention hunting however, they are elves and great bowmen and the were on the anduin they could have fished.

[Bombadil]

I agree with Morsul about the possibilities of fishing and hunting. Let's not forget also the name Lorien was after the Vala who was known for his beautiful gardens, I'm sure there were plenty of gardens with luscious fruits and veggies for all!

[Saraphim]

Yeah, in a forest the prospects for hunting and cultivating, especially tree-grown food, is large.

Am I wrong, or did they only give lembas on special occaisions to special wayward travelers (ie the fellowship)?

But I'm sure they could have changed a few adjectives around, making it "stay at home bread" instead of "waybread"

[NightKnight]

Also, they were elves. I don't think they needed much food. The impression I get from elves is that they don't need to eat, since they can't starve to death anyway.

[Ophelia]

I agree - there were fruit trees around Lorien , there was the river , they were not on "you" with growing plants and vegetables so , we can say that Lothlorien was in a very economicly advantageous location that allowed them to be this self sufficient community .
And I do not suppose that a starved elf and a happy elf are two phrases that go together , though it says in the book that the Elves of Lorien were joyfull . But that`s just a thought ...

Ophelia

[drigel]

There is nothing to say that the Galadthrim did not trade with other elf communities. I would assume that would be the case, and commerce with other races would be excluded..?..?

[Morsul the Dark]

but remember no one was allowed to enter lothlorien i do think that they hunted and fished and tree fruit indeed. also didnt the city of lothlorien never change? was time supposed to stasnd still or some such thing? so maybe they were just never hungry

[drigel]

I could be wrong, but wasnt it "no mortals could ever pass through..." ?>

There was definately a lot of traffic between Rivendell and Lothlorien. Enough for an attack to occur on Elronds daughter. Its curious to imagine the goods being trading by just those 2 communities...

[Lady Snickerdoodle]

Okay fine, I forgot about fishing and all that... but for the orchards and crops, who would tend them? *interesting image of random elf on a tractor in overalls* They would have to manufacture their own implements, and though a shovel of mithril would have been pretty, it's kind of impractical. Though it would get me to tend my garden more. Is there any record of a mundane object made by elves? I know they were good with precious metals, and they could make weapons and jewelry, but were there any not-so-romantic tools made? Or did the elves just keep that under cover to be more impressive?!

Also, forest crops get kind of limited after a while.. But since the gardens of Lorien are supposed to be magical, they would probably be able to manage it.


EDIT: hey... 200th post!

[Morsul the Dark]

when the elves first came to middle earth they would have to make their own implements... and i dont really see farming as an odd thing especially in lothloriend where galadriel had her ring which could give life

[drigel]

congrats lady!
I like your idea: "Howdy yall welcum to Lorien yeeehaaaw"

Thinking about this subject leads me to remember that there was much commerce between the Noldor community in Eregion during the 2nd age and the dwarves of Khazad Dum. So, whos to say that there wasnt the same (maybe not as much) stuff going on with Lorien as well?

[Lady Snickerdoodle]

So, whos to say that there wasnt the same (maybe not as much) stuff going on with Lorien as well?

Ssh noo... do they have any record of importing or exporting anything?

*yeehaw* *giggle snort*

[drigel]

=Kicking back on the porch, chewing on a Mallorn twig, strumming my elf banjo.....
"yall aint from round here are ya?"

*Sniff* sad to say there are no Lothlorien accounting records left, and my Greenwood contact is out of town hehe.

by Legolas' reactiong to his bow that he got as a gift..... would one say that the Lorien crafted bows are superior to the Mirkwood made bows? How many bows would it take to get one of them barells of Mirkwood elf wine>?

[Lady Snickerdoodle]

by Legolas' reactiong to his bow that he got as a gift..... would one say that the Lorien crafted bows are superior to the Mirkwood made bows? How many bows would it take to get one of them barells of Mirkwood elf wine>?

Hmm probably yes, or maybe because of the decorations on it. (*ooh shiny!*) Or maybe he's doing the old horrible-gift-from-annoying-relative dodge.
Me: *opens up present to find leopard skin print velvet pajamas in several sizes too large* OMG i LOVE IT THANK YOU SO MUCH i've always wanted some of these... *inconspicuouly sneaks it into back of closet*

But if he was being sincere, then probably only one bow would merit a wine keg.

ooh my most amazing and ingenious friend just came up with a really good point for lembas being improbable in Lothlorien. She reasons that it would have to be made from wheat, which is definitely not a forest crop. She also wants to know, with regard to the elven rope made by Galadriel;s handmaidens, where did they get the fiber to make that?

[drigel]

OMG gift recycling a Lorien bow??? hmm mabye

well there would be some fertile ground on the banks of the Anduin. There may be some pockets of level ground within the borders that were not with trees??.?

rope - hemp.. elvish hemp OMG

[Lady Snickerdoodle]

But would there be enough ground? And what about sun exposure or climate?

i say give them the bow, get the wine and when they're not looking, steal the bow back again...

[drigel]

id get greedy and sneak back to get a drunk Mirkwood sylvan into a dice game for some of those green jewells

[Lachwen]

Ah, but remember, there were large open spaces in Lórien near the Anduin (remember where the Fellowship has a picnic with Galadriel and Celeborn before leaving?), so I'm sure there could have been other open spaces devoted to grain. And, of course, flour doesn't HAVE to be made from wheat. Nut flour often works just as well.

Though I still giggle at the Elf-in-overalls mental picture. Can't you just see one playnig the opening bars of "Dueling Banjos"?

[Lady Snickerdoodle]

On the rope discussion (well there wasn't one but ssh...) I realized that they had spun and woven them out of thread-y material, so that kills the arguement for elf hemp. (lol)

Farmer Elf: Aiy'all...

[Lyta_Underhill]

Though I still giggle at the Elf-in-overalls mental picture. Can't you just see one playnig the opening bars of "Dueling Banjos"?

They's a lot of people in overalls 'round heah, but very few Elves. Mostly they look like Gimli in a pickup truck or the animated Boromir with bad legs! (You might be able to tell I'm speaking from the Deep South here!)

But seriously now, I wonder at the grains of sand in the box Galadriel gave to Sam (besides the Mallorn seed). "I suspect every grain has a value." Perhaps the Lorien Elves had discovered the secret of fertilizer and crop engineering. Maybe they had advanced arts of agriculture that would make them more likely to be self-sufficient, or maybe it's just the magic of Nenya! Whatever it is, it's deep down...

Cheers,
Lyta

[Ophelia]

Yeeeees .... I almost forgot about that ...
Well if the content of the box , which Galadriel gave to Sam , made things grow faster and healthier , why not say they didn`t have to put too much of a work in to the growing of plants
And I did not mean hat the Elves of Lorien had such heavy equipment and they lived in hasey style . They might have done things like that with a hoe (it doesn`t even have to be made of mithril , gold or silver could do aswell ) . But the point is - they had to do some work like this to keep their flower gardens , at the least , in some order , so why not grow some veggies aswell ?
And besides , even if they did trade with other elves , where did these other Elves get the products to trade . I tend to think they grew it all . So if others can do that , howcome you do not like the idea of Lorien Elves growing plants to survive ?

-Ophelia-

[Lady Snickerdoodle]

So if others can do that , howcome you do not like the idea of Lorien Elves growing plants to survive ?

I'm not against it, I just like arguing.

[Lobelia]

I like this discussion! It's a thought I've had for a while, and wrote an article (fanzine) called "Who Washes The Dishes In Rivendell?". Elves all seem to be aristocrats, except in Mirkwood, where there are Elvish servants, guards, even peasants. It says in THE HOBBIT that they don't grow anything or make stuff, but they buy from Laketown and the south (that's where the wine comes from - from other Elvish communities? (Elvish vineyards and wineries would probably produce gourmet stuff. ) No wonder Thranduil is so keen to go to Erebor to pick up some treasure after Smaug is dead! It does, though, say that his people help in the re-building of Laketown and are very good at their work.

But Lothlorien? I think it is, more or less, self-sufficient. They're a small community and probably wouldn't need a whole lot. What Galadriel gives Sam is soil from her orchard, so they grow fruit. And if fruit, why not other stuff? We don't know what the rope is made from, but the Elves tell Sam they could have shown him how to make it if they'd known he was interested, so presumably there's nothing magical about the process, even if the finished product does strange things. If you can make rope, you can probably make cloth too. Hemp is a fine alternative to cotton. Lothlorien - and Rivendell too - strikes me as a sort of artists' colony. It's not so much what they make as how well they make it. They can make even bread and fruit taste wonderful, as Frodo, Pippin and Sam find when they meet Gildor and co.

[drigel]

Nice points being made here! Dueling mandolins.. mabye?? hehe hmmm squeal like a warg?

I think that in The Hobbit we get to see the goofy underbelly of a typical elven community, because of the theme of the book (cmon, in The Hobbit, even the Rivendell folk were a fun loving crowd, 'a la The Knights of the Round Table of the Holy Grail) and because of Bilbo being invisible and sneaking around. In LOTR, the communities seem more "aristocratic" only because of the serious nature of the theme.

I would like to think that if one were to walk invisible amonst the rank and file of Lorien, one would observe the goofy fun loving folk that is demonstrated by Thranduils kin in The Hobbit. Granted, the Mirkwood elves were mainly Avari, and the "aristocrats" there were probably more rustic than those in Rivendell or Lorien. But there would be a segment of the population that, while contributing to the community by farming or doing the dishes, would prefer a goblet of wine and a song over anything else. I think that for and elvish community in any local, donning the overalls and growing things, or having a hunting expedition would be a task that is easily taken.

[Lachwen]

..."Who Washes The Dishes In Rivendell?"

I wonder if the Rivendell dish-washer uses Dial or Dawn soap? No, wait, if they're like the Elves in The Hobbit, they probably use Joy.

[Lachwen]

Hate to be a double-poster, but I just thought of this...

In his early writings, Tolkien often called the Noldor "Gnomes." Now, Galadriel is of the Noldor, so one would assume that some of the other Elves of Lórien were also Noldor, so obviously the raising of crops would have been seen to by...Garden Gnomes...

[Lobelia]

Originally Posted by Lachwen

Hate to be a double-poster, but I just thought of this...

In his early writings, Tolkien often called the Noldor "Gnomes." Now, Galadriel is of the Noldor, so one would assume that some of the other Elves of Lórien were also Noldor, so obviously the raising of crops would have been seen to by...Garden Gnomes

Hmm... Does this make Haldir a Guardian Gnome?

I'm sure the dishwashing liquid of Lothlorien and Rivendell is the most artistically produced on Arda.

[Lachwen]

Y'know, that brings a new question into my mind...what would Elven bathrooms be like? Would they use two-ply paper for comfort, or one-ply to save the trees? Flush or pit toilets? If flush, WHERE DID THE SEWER PIPE GO??? Certainly not into the Bruinen!

[lindil]

I have postulated on older threads whose titles are now dim to my memory, that Lorien was indeed isolated from everyone but Imladris, what this basically means is that they were isolated from Thranduil and co. We know this from the strange remark of Celeborn to his kinsman of unknown degree Legolas.

Why would this be? surely even with Dol Guldor right across the river it would be easier to get to and from Mirkwood from Lorien than over the Ered Withrin!

The answer is given in UT [Galadriel and Celeborn appendices I think] where JRRT mentions that rulers like Thranduil and his father held a grudge [re: mengroth's destruction and the sack of the sons of feanor] still, against the Noldor [read specifically galadriel] and wanted nothing to do with them. Especially, one could imagine with Feanors neice who was sympathetic to Dwarves and had been on good terms with Celegorms son! Celebrimbor's renunciation of his dark-dad notwithstanding.

Elrond's sending Legolas was quite possibly an attempt at bridge-building.

Gandalf may also have been at a loss at how to get the Dwarves through or past Thranduils' realm and thus said nothing and wrote no letter of introduction!

There is also the fact that Thranduil would have been doubly ****ed at anyone having anything to do with the Rings of Power [again read Galadriel] as their secert and foolish forging led to the death of his father and a third of his army.

So... was Lorien self sufficient. Absolutely. They had to be. I imagine self-sufficiency to be a a goal and basic element of any Elvish community. Exceptions like trading with dwarves for metals during wartime being an exception.

thranduil would also be an exception as we read in the Hobbit, but that may be due to the fact that Mirkwood was just not as co-operative a forest as Lorien.


-L

[Lady Snickerdoodle]

so obviously the raising of crops would have been seen to by...Garden Gnomes...

Ack am I to be stalked by Garden Gnomes forever????? (sorry just, a lot of events having to do with garden gnomes have been trailing me about recently. like being caught between a friend who vows to kill all garden gnomes as revenge for loosing a landscaping contest and the other friend who was anonymously the 1st place winner)

lindil, great points! i agree, or would, but i have problems with remembering what happened in the indexes. they kind of stretch on a lot on random details. that might be because i was very young at the time when i read them, so i must read them again for summer vacation or something.

elvish toilets... hmm...

[drigel]

Lindil always has awsome points - a true scholar. I always enjoy being motivated to return to the source material he references and revisit the books. The UT's are my favs! The depth of Elven society and its nuances is facsinating, and makes me appreciate JRRT's talent even more. I can see plainly why grudges were continued through the years when you think about the amount of time Oropher and Thanduil had a wonderfull thing going on - then those meddling Noldor come in on the scene and jack everyone up .... at least to their point of view.

I was wondering - what is the lineage of Oropher? Was he Sylvan or Sindarin? Was he involved with anything (at any time) west of the Misty Mountains?


So, based on Lindils insight and references, one can conclude that there must have been at least a minimal amount of farming\gardening going on to produce the lembas? No ideas as to ingrediants i suppose....

[symestreem]

If they built a whole city in the trees, surely they could grow wheat there. Yes, it would be heavy, but elves are special. Didn't they have a whole lawn in the trees? Sorry if that's wrong, my copy is disinegrating. I kind of picture Lorien as Kashyyk, for any Star Wars fans.
Or, perhaps the elves... modified... wheat to grow in the trees and be smaller. Kind of like reverse natural selection.

[Aredhel]

I can offer you three sources of food, two not discussed anywhere in Tolkien's works. They are native to the forests and rivers.

Firstly, I believe that Mallorn trees produced a nut. This could be roasted, dried, and ground to produce anything from flour (and then cakes and so forth) to a hot drink.

Next would be marsh-mallow, which would certainly be a-plenty by the riverside.
Not only can the tufts be used to stuff pillows, but the roots are starchy and can be served roasted, mashed, boiled - what have you! They are nutty in taste. Further, the seed can be ground into flour too, and the pollen can be used similarly.

Sumak (only Bull's horn or Stag's horn) produces large quantities of red berries high in vitamin C. When added to water, the resulting drink is sour, like pink lemonade.

I am just learning of the different edible plants in the wild. One can do anything from drying and smoking them, to finding soap right under our feet. If Lorien was as well taken care of as I think it was, there would be tons of food to be had. One only needs to know where to look! I'm sure the Elves knew all of the plants in their forests.

[Araréiel]

I just alwasy assumed that, not only did they not eat much, but that they did grow food and hunt. It just wasn't mentioned for whatever reason, almost like a given.