Evil things

[Nirvana II]

It says in The Silmarillion that Morgoth took other Maiar with him besides Gorthaur.....Who were they......just very very very unbelievably curious...... and where can I find their names........ because he had to take someone with firey powers...because his wasnt enough to make Gothmog and the Valaraukar and the orcses and to corrupt Men....(and some Elves) and.....just anything evil inparticular....................................an ything......from LOTR of course though

please reply.....Nirvana II

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I don't think there had been a great deal of mention about the names of those Maiar that were corrupted by Morgoth in the Silmarrillion. Balrogs, spirits of fire, are Maiar, and the chief among them is Gothmog. Sauron/Gorthaur was a Maiar of Aule. But that was about all... if one is to also include the names of orc captains that were said to be 'lesser Maiar'. But which orc captains were Maiar exactly, I could not be too sure. *smacks self for misplacing BoLT and HoME*

Anyway, there had been much debates about whether dragons had Maiar spirits. Ungoliant, the Spider Mother, was not stated as a Maiar... but she could have been, due to the 'obscurity of Elven-lore' before the chaining of Melkor. (There was only darkness in the great Void before the making of Arda, and after Genesis, Evil came only with the arrival of Satan - Melkor)

Orcs, Trolls and all of the other nasties were not created by Melkor and Co. They were only results of genetic experiments He performed on men, elves and whatnots. Men, on the other hand, were said to be corrupted by him right from the start... one story from The History of Middle-Earth X: Morgoth's Ring, said that Morgoth approached Men and deceived them into thinking that he is Eru.

[Gil-Galad]

Orcs-->elves
Trolls-->Ents
Men-->men
Dragons-->Eagles

Melkor made these creatures to battle the creatures that oppose him

[Nirvana II]

if one is to also include the names of orc captains that were said to be 'lesser Maiar'

nice,crispy, hobbit i think the maiar were all equal in power......but im not sure............

Nirvana II

[Legolas]

Morgoth didn't make the balrogs. They were Maiar themselves. Other names are not given, nor do they seem to play a significant role (or they would've been mentioned, obviously).

[Kransha]

Let's see...I believe these are most of the Maiar enlisted with Melkor/Morgoth, not bred by him.
-Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs and Captain of Angband
-Thuringwethil the Vampire, the "Lady of Shadow"
-Ungoliant the great spider, devourer of light
-Drauglin the werewolf, lord of Tol-in-Gaurhoth

There are, of course, many other lesser Maiar, but those are the evil ones who were in league with Melkor, mentioned by name. Morgoth enlisted many mini-maiar races of demons, like...
-Balrogs
-Vampires
-Werwolves
-Watchers (various)
-Fellbeasts of Morgoth
-Wereworms of the East
-Great Spiders

...I think....Don't take my word for it...

[Nirvana II]

but what about Maiar that kept their humanoid form....such as Gorthaur?

[Kransha]

Originally posted by Nirvana II
but what about Maiar that kept their humanoid form....such as Gorthaur?

Gorthaur is rather obvious, considering. Of course, Gothmog and Ungoliant are obvious to anyone who's read the Silmarillion at all, but Thuringwethil and Drauglin are lesser. I, personally, was very interested in the Maiar werewolf idea and did research on this subject. Unfortunately, good ol' Drauglin is slightly overshadowed by his wolfie equivalent, Carcharoth.

[Nirvana II]

ooooohhhhhh.............

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

but what about Maiar that kept their humanoid form....such as Gorthaur?

I think he's quite special, being Morgoth's leftenant and all...

i think the maiar were all equal in power...

They aren't all equal.

To the overthrow of Morgoth he[Manwë] sent his herald Eönwë.To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people?

(UT IV 2, emphasis mine)

[The Saucepan Man]

...I think....Don't take my word for it...

Indeed, Kransha, since we have no definitive indication as to whether or not most of the beings and creatures that you have identified were of the Maiar.

Ungoliant may have been a Maia, but we cannot tell for sure from the brief description. All we really know is that, according to Elf legend, she crept into Arda from the darkness outside (I don't have my books handy, so I can't give the exact quote).

Dragons are said to have been created by Morgoth, but they may have been inhabited by Maia spirits, since Morgoth (as with all the Valar) could not create sentient life himself. Much the same, I should imagine, goes for Vampires and Werewolves.

I would doubt, however that Watchers or Fell Beasts were Maiar. They seem far more like beasts and, as such, are more likely to have been created and/or corrupted by Morgoth. And as for the great Spiders, even if Ungoliant was a Maia, I very much doubt that her Arda-born offspring would have been.

The only Maia that we can say for sure were persuaded by Morgoth to his cause are, I think, Sauron and the Balrogs. Of the Balrogs, only Gothmog was named, although there are others individually identified (Durin's Bane and the Balrog which Glorfindel (of Gondolin) fought).

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Heh, my remarks about orc captains being inhabited by Maia spirit may require some proving... but I do believe that there had been occations when a named orc captain lived extremely long... In Morgoth's Ring or some other History of Middle-Earth Books *bangs head against wall for misplacing HoMEs*, there had been a section on Orcs. Prof T mentioned that a couple of orc captains with outstanding longetivity could have been Maiar inhabited. I would find you the exact quote when I lay my hands on those books again. *smash head against wall again*

[Kransha]

I was under the impression that vampires and werewolves were Maiar, or at least Thuringwethil and Drauglin. I think I have a quote somewhere to back that up. Since dragons were bred in Angband, they couldn't be Maiar. In truth, I was just guessing on the matter of fellbeasts and watchers. I thought that the Watchers of Cirith Ungol might be, but again, that was sort of an unlawful guess. Let me dig through, HoME a little, and perhaps I'll discover the desirable quote. Otherwise, I bow to your obviously superior knowledge *slaps self with Grond*.

[Leyrana Silumiel]

I seem to remember a part in the Silmarillion (at the very end of, I believe, the Elves' account of the Valar, but I can't be postive of that--I just know it was the one before the last paragraph on a particular section/chapter) that said something along the lines of Sauron being the only Maia corrupted to Morgoth's service that was really worth mentioning. I don't have the book with me (it's at home; I'm at college), so I can't give an exact quote; perhaps someone else has it available to them at the moment and can dig this quote up for me?

[Kransha]

Well, I have realized, to my great displeasure, that my copy of the HoME volumes is lent to someone. I have, however, discovered, or at least remembered, the quotes my point requires. I still have the Silmarillion, and am currently digging through that dwarfishly.

I was certainly wrong about werewolves being Maiar, since apparently they were technically bred by Morgoth. Not like orcs, but similar. The werewolves were...

"Werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he (Sauron) had imprisoned in their bodies."

The Silmarillion, Of Beren and Luthien

Of course, vampires are a different story. Christopher Tolkein, in one of his notes I tracked down, speculates that "vampires like Thuringwethil, being thus able to transform into a bat-like creature and fly aloft, were presumably maiar or some such being." Also, to support my point, both the Encyclopedia of Arda and Atlas of Middle-Earth (at least relatively respactable volumes of Tolkein, but not written by him) state that the vampires either were maiar, or something close to being maiar.

P.S. On the matter of the C.T. quote, I know not where that is from specifically, since I first read it on the internet earlier. I, unfortunately, have blanked out on the site and am trying to find it so I can post a link, though it seemed respectable enough (anyway, who would make up things for Christopher Tolkein to say?)

[Nirvana II]

As for The Vampire and the Wolf, I have found that the were indeed Maiar. The were Maiar of Orome.

thanks all for your help......keep posting...my questions are insatiable


Nirvana II

[Kransha]

Would you mind telling me where you find this information. It would be extremely helpful for my 'argument', on technicality.

Interesting, that. If Drauglin the werewolf was a maiar of Orome, then Orome's creatures must not have brotherly dispositions. Huan the Wolfhound, who killed Drauglin, was also a Maiar of Orome...weird...but interesting, nonethless.

[Nirvana II]

book of lost tales book 2.... and now for something completely different..........the dark lords had something powerful........Morgoth had the Silmarils and Gorthaur had the Ring


Nirvana II

[The Saucepan Man]

Werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he (Sauron) had imprisoned in their bodies.

The spirits which inhabited the bodies of Werewolves may have been Maia spirits. But then again, they may have been something different. As far as I am aware, there is no definitive answer.

Christopher Tolkein, in one of his notes I tracked down, speculates that "vampires like Thuringwethil, being thus able to transform into a bat-like creature and fly aloft, were presumably maiar or some such being."

It would be helpful to know where this came from (I was unable to find it in any of my books). But it is, of course, speculation on Christopher Tolkien's part. And, although he may be best placed of all of us to speculate on such matters, even he is by no means certain. In effect, he is saying that Vampires may have been Maiar, or they may have been something similar.

As for The Vampire and the Wolf, I have found that the were indeed Maiar. The were Maiar of Orome.

Are you sure about that, Nirvana II? I can find nothing on this in BoLT2. Could you give a more precise reference please?

It's important not to present speculation as fact. That's how misconceptions start.

[Kransha]

As I mentioned in my post script, I do not know the source of that speculation, though it seemed respectable enough. Perhaps it was from a letter or transcript of his. Luckily, I was specific enough not to present that statement as fact, since it is speculation. I do have the other two sources, but they are not Tolkein and I don't know what those sources' sources are. Perhaps I can find that out.

So, werewolves were not directly Maiar, but they may have had maia spirits as a kind of "soul fuel" or however one would put it. Vampires are more likely candidates for the position of maiar than werewolves, but it is still more or less speculation. Similar to the Ungoliant theory.

[Nirvana II]

Kransha....i do believe it was C.T.'s speculation...he kinda made it more complex and interesting and saucepan man........i at least think it was in BoLT2....i think.....or maybe the war of the jewels



Nirvana II

[Estanesse]

The only Maia that we can say for sure were persuaded by Morgoth to his cause are, I think, Sauron and the Balrogs.

And of course Ossë

As for dragons and Vampires, it is hard to imagine that the Kelvar possesses such powers as the dragons have. Because when you look at Carcharoth, he had no special powers such as for instance Glaurung had.

[Kransha]

Carcharoth was just a wolf who guarded Angband. He bit off the hand that bore the Silmaril and went on a killing spree with newfound power, that's all. He's no werewolf or vampire, just and ordinary wolf. Drauglin is the werewolf and Thuringwethil is the vampire. Drauglin's nothing special either, but Thuringwethil seems to have been at least a little "uber" in terms of power.

[Nirvana II]

but didn't Huan the Wolfhound kill carchroth or whatever his name is everntually?



Nirvana II

[Kransha]

Come to think about, Huan the Wolfhound of Orome is the "uber" one.

I know this is off topic, but it seems at least mildly relevant since this is a discussion of Maiar (evil maiar, though). Huan the Wolfhound seems to have single-pawedly defeated many major enemies for the side of right, stealing the spotlight, so to speak. Huan defeated Drauglin, Carcharoth, destroyed Tol-in-Gaurhoth, killed Thuringwethil, AND HE EVEN DEFEATED SAURON (as the wolf-more-great) in battle on the Tol-in-Gaurhoth bridge. Don't you think that's like a huge advantage being handed to Arda by the Valar (I suppose it was sort of called for).

[Nirvana II]

it applys.......it relates to evil things........in this case the slaying of evil things..............


Nirvana II

[Nirvana II]

why exactly DID Melkor want to Rule Ea?

[Finwe]

Slightly off-topic there.

[HerenIstarion]

Morgoth didn't make the balrogs

True, if we talk about Umaiar, (i.e. 3 to 7 Balrogs)

But I hold it as he did make (or rather, twisted some other creatures into "balrogness" in case of men, and upgraded some in case of orks) quite a load of balrogs after all

How can Huor be tempted with the opportunity of becoming Lord of Balrogs, than?

See here

[Noxomanus]

Did Huan kill Thuringwethil?? I thought Luthien merely took her shape from her,sending her naked spirit away...possibly making her a Maia without phsyical shape for ever.

[Kransha]

Originally posted by Noxomanus
Did Huan kill Thuringwethil?? I thought Luthien merely took her shape from her,sending her naked spirit away...possibly making her a Maia without phsyical shape for ever.

I guess that's assumption on my part. I mean, Huan the Wolfhound basically killed or defeated all the baddies that resided in Tol-in-Gaurhoth. One would think that this included Thuringwethil, who was in that tower at the time. She would need to be physically slain so that Luthien could take her "bat-fell" with the wings and claws. I suppose if Thuringwethil could be spiritually dispatched, that would actually support my theory that she was a maia. Interesting.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

NO!!! Don't start about Maia without physical shapes! They are omnipotent!

If we are talking about normal wolves and bats that Morgoth performed his genetic experiments on, then I guess this is a pretty open case. Carcharoth, of course, was a normal wolf 'of the brood' of Drauglin'. He was hand-fed by Morgoth, *mutters about steroids* and ATE a Silmarilli. I guess Huan would not have died fighting Carcharoth without any Silmarilli.

Had anyone draw any comparisons between the Bats and the Eagles? Having read most the works of Prof T, I have always felt that he downplayed the power of Evil, while hiding the power of Good. Yes, its that 'All that is gold does not glitter' thing again. I know this had been brought up before, but that 'Evil cannot conceive' concept felt somewhat hollow, considering that Evil Men can live and reproduce just as well as any other living things, and they were definitely twisted in some sense. (No, I am not about to restart that excellent dedate on Orcish Fear) Personally, I should have more pity for the genetically 'impaired' creatures twisted by Morgoth than those who followed him willingly.

[Nirvana II]

yes crisby hobbbit! I most gain knowledge of every evil thing!

[HerenIstarion]

They are omnipotent!

they are not.


Ever wondered why these baddies always bothered themselves as to rebuilding their bodies after each defeat? Anything strikes you as strange, them being omnipotent when naked and all?

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

That's a figure of speech, Master HerenIstarion. When Sauron had his finger hacked off;

Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years

Sauron had no body, and yet he remained undefeated for One Age. Of course, one could say that the Ring had to do with his power being undiminished, but to say that a Maia without body is 'omni-potent' is pretty true to mortals like myself.

[Nirvana II]

i hath officially changed this topic......look to the start of thread and you'll see

[HerenIstarion]

Sauron had no body, and yet he remained undefeated for One Age

Being uncorporeal, he was unable to interact with the mortals (and immortals) he craved to subdue. So, even being undefeated, there was no possibility for him to achieve his ends. Inability to do something is by definition the drawback on [alleged] omnipotency. He was 'dispersed', that is the thing hard to find to defeat, after all.

Logical deduction:

1. Sauron is seeking to rebuild his body to renew the war for the ME
2. It takes him an age to do so

Conclusion - Diembodied [evil] Maia is not omnipotent, and needs a body, though it is hard to have a real body once one looses it.

In case logic is not enough, let me back myself up with references, than:

Osanwe-Kenta

Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also he had dissipated his native powers in the control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen. Even his visible form he could no longer master, so that its hideousness could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his mind. So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed".

The 'good' Maiar/Valar retain ability to 'clothe' themselves at will, but even when 'unclothed' by their own choice (and not deprived of habitual body (see below)) they are not omni-potent (even flight is only for Manwe and Varda). As far as textual evidence shows, the best they contrive, is teleportation:

HoME XII, Later Writings

and who [Maiar and Valar when not clothed - H-I] could move/travel simply by an act of will when not arrayed in a body___ which they could assume when they reached the places [presumably which they wished to reach - H-I]

as of habitual body, in case of good maiar Osanwe-Kenta again:

It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it [...] if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.

What do you define as omni-potent, by the way? As far as concept goes, the only omnipotent being is Eru.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I am chastised, cribbed and confounded by your immense knowledge on the subject of Maia! *kowtows*

Nonetheless, if as you suggested, Maia is inassailable while without a hröa, and they can still choose to rebuilt one when they gathered sufficient power, they can be considered omnipotent by mortal standards, doesn't it? Compare: The only mortal that has returned to life from Eru-knows-where is Beren, while we read of Maia and Elves returning in full body armour every once in a while.

The 'Gift' of Men is just so mysterious that you can hardly blame me for pining about the outrageous advantages the 'Gods' and Elves have.

[HerenIstarion]

I am chastised, cribbed and confounded

um, may I suggest "embraced" m'lady (m'lord?)? Thanks for the compliment, nevertheless

outrageous advantages the 'Gods' and Elves have

have they? They both are bound by the world and its history, while humans go free.

for is it not written :

[Death is their fate]the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope.'

Athrabeth Finrod (elda) ah Andreth (human)

[Andreth]I hold that in this [state of being on earth, i.e. fea (spirit) and hroa (body) united - H-I]we are as ye are, truly Incarnates, and that we do not live in our right being and its fullness save in a union of love and peace between the House and the Dweller. Wherefore death, which
divides them, is a disaster to both.'

'Ever more you amaze my thought, Andreth,' said Finrod.
'For if your claim is true, then lo! a fea which is here but a traveller is wedded indissolubly to a hroa of Arda; to divide
them is a grievous hurt, and yet each must fulfil its right nature
without tyranny of the other. Then this must surely follow: the fea when it departs must take with it the hroa. And what can this mean unless it be that the fea shall have the power to uplift the hroa, as its eternal spouse and companion, into an endurance everlasting beyond Ea, and beyond Time? Thus would Arda, or part thereof, be healed not only of the taint of Melkor, but released even from the limits that were set for it in the "Vision of Eru" of which the Valar speak. 'Therefore I say that if this can be believed, then mighty indeed under Eru were Men made in their beginning; and dreadful beyond all other calamities was the change in their state.
'Is it, then, a vision of what was designed to be when Arda
was complete - of living things and even of the very lands and seas of Arda made eternal and indestructible, for ever beautiful and new - with which the fear of Men compare what they see here? Or is there somewhere else a world of which all things which we see, all things that either Elves or Men know, are only tokens or reminders?'

'If so it resides in the mind of Eru, I deem,' said Andreth. 'To
such questions how can we find the answers, here in the mists of Arda Marred? Otherwise it might have been, had we not been changed; but being as we are, even the Wise among us have given too little thought to Arda itself, or to other things that dwell here. We have thought most of ourselves: of how our hroar and fear should have dwelt together for ever in joy, and of the darkness impenetrable that now awaits us.'

'Then not only the High Eldar are forgetful of their kin!' said
Finrod. 'But this is strange to me, and even as did your heart
when I spoke of your unrest, so now mine leaps up as at the
hearing of good news.
'This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World!
[...] I was thinking that by the Second Children we might have been delivered from death. For ever as we spoke of death being a division of the united, I thought in my heart of a death that is not so: but the ending together of both. For that is what lies before us, so far as our reason could see: the completion of Arda and its end, and therefore also of us children of Arda; the end when all the long lives of the Elves shall be wholly in the past.
'And then suddenly I beheld as a vision Arda Remade; and there the Eldar completed but not ended could abide in the present for ever, and there walk, maybe, with the Children of Men, their deliverers, and sing to them such songs as, even in the Bliss beyond bliss, should make the green valleys ring and the everlasting mountain-tops to throb like harps.'

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Much obliged again, but any clue as to where dead men go? Especially the Evil ones? It has always struck me that Prof T refused to deal with the afterlife of Men, perhaps on theological ground? With the exception of those cursed, all men depart from Arda upon death. (One did return to get married, of course, but we won't get into that) It would seem, therefore, that the obscure 'Gift' of Men extends even to the Evil Things classified under here... unless they have all been under a curse before they died.