Additions that didn't help ROTK

[Linaeve]

Since there's a thread for additions that helped ROTK, I figured that I'd start one for additions that <I>didn't</I> help. Don't get me wrong- I was fairly impressed with the movie and have no desire to pick it apart or anything. It's just that there were a couple of additions that REALLY irked me because I thought that they made the movie more Hollywood than necessary. Here's my list:<P>1) <B><I>The whole farewell sequence between Merry and Pippin before Gandalf takes Pippin off with him.</I></B> Yes, I realize that the friendship between Merry and Pippin runs deep, and that in the books Tolkien mentions how much they miss each other, but did we really have to have that sequence? It seems to me that it was just a contrived Hollywood tear jerker that really wasn't all that effective. It was painful to watch- I was squirming in my seat until it was over. I was more inclined to laugh than to cry.<P>2) <I><B>Denethor's eating scene.</B></I> I really don't understand why they had to focus so much on Denethor eating those tomatoes, or whatever they were. In my opinion, the scene really didn't add anything to movie beyond establishing the fact that Denethor's a creepy guy. Maybe it shows how Pippin's matured, but that could be shown through other ways, couldn't it? <P>3) <I><B>Arwen.</I></B> I'm a little annoyed because I feel that they involved her in ROTK though Tolkien hadn't, and they didn't even do anything with her in the end! To me, it was just like they were saying, "Here's Arwen- we haven't forgotten about her. Now on to the more important part of the story"<P>4) <I><B>Gimli</B></I>. I'm kind of undecided on this one. I thought that Gimli's humor helped in that it served as comic relief, but I think they crossed the line a little bit with him. It got to the point where I was sitting there going, "All right, say your funny line and let's get on with the story."<P>I can't wait for the extended version- I'm sure that'll shed more light on a lot of these things <p>[ 4:01 PM January 05, 2004: Message edited by: Linaeve ]

[Arwen Imladris]

<B>The whole farewell sequence between Merry and Pippin</B><BR>I didn't think it was that far fetched, they haven't really done a very good job showing their friendship so far, so they had to show it somehow.<P><B>Denethor's eating scene</B><BR>It gave Billy Boyd a chance to sing, so I can't really complain. I have to admit, it was rather odd. However, it did show that even while his own son was fighting and being put in the line of fire, all Denethor cared about was himself.<P><B>Arwen.</B><BR>Well, the whole loop showed that it was a big decision, but they already proved that to us. I think that they could have shown her decision another way that took up less screan time.<P><B>Gimli</B><BR>Yes, but I don't think it was as bad as the second movie! <P><B>The fight scenes</B><BR>I know that they are an important part of the Lord of the Rings, but I don't think we needed quite so much of it. A lot of it was to fast to really follow anything and therefore didn't mean anything to the audience. A couple of shots to show us the vastness, a couple of shots with the main characters, done.

[Alatariel]

How about Frodo sending Sam away - and even more to the point - Sam GOING! I know that PJ was probably just trying to show how much of a hold the Ring had over Frodo, but come on! Sam would never have left Frodo while he was still alive - especially if he thought that Frodo was in potential danger with the distrusted Gollum.

[kittiegirl]

I have to read closer, but I don't think they had the dead fight, I just think they went through the Paths of the Dead.<BR>I could be wrong.<BR>The had the Wild Men of Gindor fight instead(in the books) I think...

[Linaeve]

I don't think we ever saw the Dead fight, but Tolkien had Legolas recount the fight later on. Also, I agree with the whole Sam bit . . . but I can kind of understand Sam leaving. I mean, I think he'd obey Frodo no matter what, especially if he thought Frodo was serious, and I think he also might have been wondering himself about those lembas. <P>I didn't like the whole Gollum-framing-Sam thing though- I liked it better in the books, because Tolkien portrayed Gollum in a more sympathetic light. I don't like the way PJ had to simplify things by casting one guy as the definite bad guy and another as a definite good guy. Things are rarely that simple in real life. Anyway . . .

[kittiegirl]

Yeah, in TTT, they showed him gradually getting less evil up until the conversation with himself.<BR>Then he was fighting himself in the last scene.<BR>Then they made him all evil in ROTK.<P>I just think it was bad timing.

[Carlas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I don't like the way PJ had to simplify things by casting one guy as the definite bad guy and another as a definite good guy. Things are rarely that simple in real life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think PJ made gollum a complete bad guy. In TTT most people feel bad for him, and I know a lot of people who loved him, but at the end of TTT the movie shows gollum deciding to kill Sam and Frodo. In ROTK, he just has gollum trying to kill Frodo with his plots of seperating the two of them.

[Jjudvven]

I thought that the Gollum/Lembas scene was completely unneccary. It was just stupid. The second time I watched the RotK, I went to use the restroom during that scene. Really not very well done.<P>The Denethor being a sloppy eater thing was kinda dumb. I think it would have worked better if he had been eating slowly and carefully, more like the upper class person that he was. <P>Denethor jumping off Minis Tirith. This scene was funny to watch, but made it seem like Denny had changed his mind about killing himself. I really didn't like that.<P>I agree with just about everything else that I read above tho.

[kittiegirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I thought the Gollum/Lembas scene was completely unessary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So did I.<BR>Yet another reason it reminds me of the Skillet song "Fingernails", being blamed and all.

[Gil-Galad]

PJ kinda showed Theoden has a mix between bad and good, though he fought aganest orcs, he didn't want to help Gondor

[Leona]

Okay, I stand with jjudvven on the Gollum framing Sam for the Lembas thing.<P>I am also in agreement with Arwen Imladris, about the Farewell scene of Merry and Pippin and on the whole overdoing of the battle scenes.<P>I also would have dearly loved to see more of what happens to Gimli and Legolas afterwards. I mean, I know this is a thread for additions that didn't help, but I think that is one thing they could have done with the extra time from not having some of these things we have mentioned.<P>In other words, I think I pretty much agree with everything I've read.<P>Later, <BR>Leona

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The fight scenes<BR>I know that they are an important part of the Lord of the Rings, but I don't think we needed quite so much of it. A lot of it was to fast to really follow anything and therefore didn't mean anything to the audience. A couple of shots to show us the vastness, a couple of shots with the main characters, done.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I thought Jackson did alright on the fight scenes. Maybe a little much, at times, but you have to give a huge fight enough screen time or else it'll come out badly. I do think the camera was moving to fast in RotK, though.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Denethor jumping off Minis Tirith. This scene was funny to watch, but made it seem like Denny had changed his mind about killing himself. I really didn't like that.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I didn't like it because PJ decided to sacrifice what little dignity in Denethor's death there was for a cool special effects scene. And it did make it look like he'd changed his mind, which is never good.<P>More will be added .

I thought PJ totally goofed with the Denethor diving off the cliff scene. <P>One of the creepiest parts of the books is when Tolkien describes Denethor laying down in the pyre (by choice) and dying in the fire holding the palantir. PJ could have done an absolutely neat special effect with the burned hands showing in the palantir.<P>I think handling the scene the way it was written would have shown more clearly just how twisted Denethor's mind had become.

[Mister Underhill]

I'm gonna go against the seeming general consensus and call out Pippin's song as an inappropriate addition. <P>I don't recall Pippin's exact lines in the movie when he's asked to sing by Denethor, but they're close enough in spirit to his book response: ‘[I sing] well enough for my own people. But we have no songs fit for great halls and evil times, lord. We seldom sing of anything more terrible than wind or rain. And most of my songs are about things that make us laugh; or about food and drink, of course.’<P>But when Denethor insists that he sing anyway -- in the movie -- he busts out a melancholy dirge that would have caused the most sullen and gloomy Elves in history to nod their approval. <P>If PJ really wanted to milk that moment, I almost would have preferred Pippin attempting to sing one of his rustic Shire songs, maybe breaking down towards the end, unable to continue. Another example of how PJ & Co's inventions almost always run the train right off the tracks.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

One of the most inappropriate additions, in my eyes, is that orc general who looks like a cross between Porky the Pig and Sloth from <i>The Goonies</i>. He just looked a little too puppet-ish to me. All of the other "main" villains were just a little more believeable.<P>I also didn't like the prologue. I thought that it could've fit in real well if the beginning hadn't been so comical. I could've done without the close-up on biting the catfish. It just didn't flow to me... they could've cut it and left it for the extended DVD. I wouldn't have missed it.<P>And one more thing... how many times do we have to watch Gollum talk to himself. I suppose it wouldn't bother me if Smeagol was less comical. I hate hearing people laugh, I don't think it should've been played for laughs.

[Diamond18]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I don't recall Pippin's exact lines in the movie when he's asked to sing by Denethor, but they're close enough in spirit to his book response: ‘[I sing] well enough for my own people. But we have no songs fit for great halls and evil times, lord. We seldom sing of anything more terrible than wind or rain. And most of my songs are about things that make us laugh; or about food and drink, of course.’ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In the movie, the quote ran, "Well... yes. That is, well enough for my own people. But we have no songs fit for great halls and... <I>evil</I> times."<P>By leaving out the last part of the quote, it comes across more like Pippin just trying to get out of singing, with a little jab at Denethor at the end. Basically, it sounded like "Yes I can sing, but not for <I>you."</I> I think anyone who hasn't read the book or doesn't remember the quote's exact completion, would see it that way, anyway. So by itself, it isn't quite contradictory as all that.<P>Or maybe I just so love Pippin and gloomy songs that I don't care about the accuracy, so long as those two things can be put together. Just thought I'd say that before anyone else got the chance.

[Gorwingel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Denethor jumping off Minis Tirith<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh my, I forgot about that scene. I thought that, that part was utterly ridicules and completely unnecessary. Why, PJ, Why? I didn't even think it came out funny. I thought it just came out stupid.

[kittiegirl]

I don't remember if he does that in the books though...<BR>Denethor jumping off Minas Tirith I mean.

[stickifinger]

No, he doesn't jump off the cliff in the book. I thought the character of Denethor was played very one-dimensional. Nobody liked the guy, not even his own kids, for heaven's sake! At least in the movie, there was no mention that he, too, had been deceived by the palantir. Regarding the eating scene, it certainly made me uncomfortable, but it parallels Pippin (and Merry's) obsession with food. <BR>I thought Pippin's singing was beautiful, though.

[The Wraith]

O c'mon!!!!Leaving Arwen out?She is one sexy elf!!You can't leave her out!!!

[Mooncalf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can kind of understand Sam leaving. I mean, I think he'd obey Frodo no matter what, especially if he thought Frodo was serious, and I think he also might have been wondering himself about those lembas.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think so... "Don't you leave him, Sam Gamgee--" Sam preactically adopted this as his mantra.<P>That, and I don't think Frodo would have sent Sam away in the first place. He knew he needed Sam, and I don't think he entirely trusted Gollum either. Wasn't his attitude more like, "Well, Gollum probably will turn out to be a filthy turncoat, but we do need a guide or we'll never get to Mordor"?<P><BR>Edit: Oh, and I thought the final scene with Frodo saying goodbye was entirely too long. They might as well have shortened it and put in the Scouring of the Shire. <p>[ 4:50 PM January 06, 2004: Message edited by: Mooncalf ]

[Lëowen]

Legolas killing that Mûmakil by himself...I hated that! Not only is it completely impossible, but it doesn't seem as if PJ even tried to make it look realistic. I definately think they could have left that out.

[Corwyn Celesil]

I liked Pippin's singing--nay, I loved it. It was one of the best cinematographical pieces in the movie. <BR>The part I hated the most was, as others have mentioned before, Frodo sending Sam away. That is something he never did unless under the power of the Ring, such as at Mount Doom when he chose to keep the Ring and knocked Sam over. It rather destroyed part of what hobbits are. In addition, I don't feel Gollum was supposed to be as subtle as they made him when he was influencing Frodo and planting evidence. Suddenly I felt that I had wandered into a murder mystery complete with villain, plot, detective, and courtroom scene. Gollum, like hobbits, simply wasn't that subtle and intelligent. <BR>I felt the crowning scene wasn't anywhere near as grand and climactic in the movie as in the book. <BR>Of course there are many little things, but the Gollum-Frodo-Sam thing really, really annoyed me.

[zb]

Aragorn and Arwens' kiss was cringe factor 11, imho. Bad addition.<P>The ring floating on crusty-lava-stuff (can you tell I'm not a geologist?) for seemingly 5 minutes was dumb and didn't add anything to the drama. Bad addition.<P>The vocal version of the Into the West theme annoyed me as the words make no real sense. It would have been better as an orchestral theme. I could rant more. I won't. Strange addition.<P>The Pippin singing scene - I'm in 2 minds about it. Cons:<BR>*The lyrics to the song are butchered horribly. It's nice they used Tolkien words. Pity they didn't use complete Tolkien phrases. Feh.<BR>*It's Not Canon (tm).<BR>*I have to admit it's not a terribly subtle scene. Then again, it's not a terribly subtle movie.<P>Pros:<BR>*Billy Boyd has a sweet voice.<BR>*It made me cry. Few movie things make me do that.<BR>*The juxtaposition of Faramir and his men pretty much riding to their deaths; Pippin looking sad and worried; and Denethor not caring and letting tomato juice like blood run down his chin - it's Not Canon (nor subtle) but it works to express what PJ et al were trying to say.<BR>*If you discount questions of Canon, the scene works very well in its setting, unlike some additions (cough-"go home!"-cough) which make no sense no matter how you look at them.<BR>Overall: good addition.

[Liriodendron]

You gotta be kidding! The ring floating on the lava was one of my favorite parts! Very fulfilling!

[stickifinger]

I would have liked to see the ring melt instead of sink. Maybe I've seen too many movies where the bad stuff always comes back in a sequel. I need to KNOW the ring is gone forever.

Me and my brother were talking about that after our second time seeing ROTK. We thought that they should just get rid of Frodo and the ring. Of course that would take away the entire point of the books. In the movies they made the parts sooo dragged out.

[Liriodendron]

Ha ha! Stickifinger.....Don't even go there! I guess I see your point....but no way!

[The Wraith]

I have to say that Aragorn and Arwen's kiss was kinda weird!LOL He went forward sowly and then suddenly lunged at her and half swallowed her!! Start slowly and get faster (speaking from experience)

[mark12_30]

"Speaking from experience?" <P>Experience in Strider's case is waiting and hoping for sixty-seven *long* years for the bride's father to consent to the wedding, AND hoping that he won't get killed during those 67 years either in his solo wanderings or his final climactic bid for the throne. Not many people have that kind of experience nowadays.<P>But back to the topic.<P>The combination of Gandalf and Shadowfax knocking palantir-less Denethor into the fire didn't do much for me, nor Denethor's skydiving. <P>And I wasn't particularly enthusiastic about Gandalf driving that wagon to the Grey Havens.<p>[ 12:53 PM January 07, 2004: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[The Wraith]

Yeh speaking from my experience!ehehehehehehehe

[Altariel]

My grievances are many and mostly trivial, since I'm a stick-in-the-mud purist.<P>Still... I can't help but agree with the whole "Denethor-hurling-himself-off-of-the-bastion" thing. I really don't think it was necessary. Plus, like someone said, it took away what little dignity PJ left him with. He was unhinged, maybe, but he wasn't a complete crazy. <P>I also didn't like the glowing green-ness of the Dead Men of Dunharrow... cringe! I saw them as ghostly, pearlescent white... there is a part where they're described like that, "banners like shreds of cloud" or some such.<P>On the bright side of glowing green, though, I LOVED the Minas Morgul scene. I'd been looking forward to it since I knew there was going to be a movie, and it sure didn't disappoint. Let me reiterate: I loved it. Loved it, loved it, loved it.<P>Back to the complaining. I didn't like Gollum's turning of Frodo against Sam (non-canonical... *cough*) or Sam going back.<P>And that leader orc... was so... weird-looking... o_O<P>Also, I didn't like the way the dialogue between Eowyn and the Witch-King was trimmed.<P>I hated that the Houses of Healing were left out, and no attention was paid to the romance of Faramir and Eowyn. Instead, they were ignored completely, only sharing a glance at Aragorn and Arwen's wedding, and the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen was made into a far bigger part of the story than it originally was meant to. Too much Arwen! *cringes again*

[Kalimac]

Denethor's Flaming Cannonball was definitely a mistake. He's the stoic type; he's not going to die like that. Better by far to have him remain on the pyre, unmoving, or possibly only moving in order to avoid those who might try to pull him off of it.

[stickifinger]

Well, Kalimac, I suspect it's one thing to decide intellectually to lay on a pyre and burn to death, but quite another thing to remain still when you're going up in flames. Even a little burn makes me squirm. I could never really picture that part in the book...a little unrealistic. The plunge off the cliff didn't do it for me, either. Maybe closing the doors on Denethor and hearing one final scream. That is, I believe, how Tolkein did it.

[Mooncalf]

Did anyone else notice the excessive jokes about Sam's weight? I mean, it was kind of funny in TTT when Gollum said, "Stupid, fat hobbit!" and Sam gives him this look, but it got old very quickly in ROTK... and people were still chuckling when Gollum said, "the fat one" for the tenth time.<P>Yeah, stickifinger, it would have been so much better if they had done the pyre scene as it was in the book: the doors close and you hear Denethor screaming. It would have taken less time, too, and weren't they always cutting corners to keep the movie length down?

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, all the additions/changes worked for me, with the exception of Arwen's life being tied to the fate of the Ring (unnecessary and never properly explained or justified) and the Pyre of Denethor scene. As Helen said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The combination of Gandalf and Shadowfax knocking palantir-less Denethor into the fire didn't do much for me, nor Denethor's skydiving. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I thoroughly agree that the whole episode robbed him entirely of the dignity that he deserved, his film portrayal notwithstanding. And it does cast Gandalf and/or Shadowfax in a somewhat dubious light. <P>Although I have no problem with his apparent lack of any Palantir. The dire situation facing Minas Tirith, his loss of Boromir and (to all intents and purposes, in his mind) Faramir, and his guilt over his treatment of Faramir were sufficient to make his actions credible to me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I would have liked to see the ring melt instead of sink. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It did. Just after it sinks, you can see the inscription momentarily etched in the lava surrounded by liquid gold. I thought that whole sequence was great.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> and people were still chuckling when Gollum said, "the fat one" for the tenth time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well that just goes to show that it had the desired effect, then. <P>As for Frodo telling Sam to go home, I don't have a problem with that. I have long since become accumsted to, and comfortable with, the fact that many of the film characters are different to their book counterparts, in some cases markedly so. I can still enjoy the films and appreciate their different characteristics. Frodo is one such character, so it does not bother me that he tells Sam to go home, particularly since there are episodes in the book where he acts cruelly towards Sam. In fact, it bothered me more that Sam actually set off home, perhaps because Sean Astin's Sam was, to my mind, one of the film characters that came closest to the character portrayed in the book, and I do not believe that book Sam would ever have done that. I would have preferred it had he just sat down and wept, and then resolved to follow Frodo. Finding the Lembas was unnecessary, since he already knew that it was not him who had eaten it, and he must have suspected Gollum of framing him.<p>[ 7:32 PM January 07, 2004: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Jjudvven]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>it would have been so much better if they had done the pyre scene as it was in the book: the doors close and you hear Denethor screaming. It would have taken less time, too, and weren't they always cutting corners to keep the movie length down?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I couldn't agree more. That was one of the more annoying things about the movie. They had a lots of things in there that just made it longer when they could have been more true to the book and kept it shorter, since that was what they seemed to be aiming for most of the time.

[zb]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Finding the Lembas was unnecessary, since he already knew that it was not him who had eaten it, and he must have suspected Gollum of framing him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"Stupid, fat hobbit!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Methinks movie-Frodo is the stupid hobbit if he could have believed Sam ate the lembas. That, or he thinks Sam is such a "stupid, fat hobbit" that he steals the food, then exclaims about how it's missing, even though he's the only one who could have taken it. That's what I mean about additions which don't even work in the movie context.<P>Anyway. About the ring melting: wouldn't it have been better to show Gollum holding the ring and falling, then cut straight to the Dark Tower crumbling? Surely even the thickest of moviegoers would have understood that the ring was destroyed, without having to see it. And it would have cut precious seconds from an ending which has largely been described as 'too long' by those who aren't book fans (and me, for that matter, but that's a whole different post).

[Firefoot]

I didn't so much have a problem with Frodo sending Sam away as I did with Sam actually going. That seemed very contradictory because even in the movie Sam was convinced never to leave Frodo and then he did!<P>I really liked Pippin's singing but I didn't like the way the introduced it because he says "We don't have songs for great halls and evil times" or whatever and then the song is perfect! It was another thing that I thought contradicted itself. Billy Boyd has a really nice voice though. I was so surprised. Denethor eating was rather disgusting. I think it was grapes?<P>The Denethor/skydiving made me laugh. It was so stupid. By not including the palantir I thought that it didn't really explain Denethor's madness. That was one book scene that I always enjoyed; it seemed to finalize Denethor's madness quite well. But jumping off of Minas Tirith... I'm laughing even as I type.<P>The Dead being green bothered me too. They always seemed much more transparent and less noticeable, like in the book where Legolas turns around on his horse and suddenly realizes they were following. They had subtlely joined and they hadn't realized it, even if they knew they would.<P>Merry and Pippin's farewell scene...same as everyone else. They both seemed too sad at their parting. I mean, I know they were good friends and everything but still. And that "you smoke too much" was funny and inappropriate.<P>Elrond bringing Anduril... honestly, I was quite surprised. I had assumed that Aragorn had it all along even though it never actually said that. Why did it have to be Agent Elrond err... Elrond anyway? Why not the Rangers of the North? That was something I really missed from the movie.<P>I thought the Ring melting in Mt. Doom was really cool. It was one scene that I thought that PJ & co did an excellent job on.

i think my absolute biggest problem with the movie was that they changed aragorn's hair towards the end, but that's not really an addition. more on topic i also strongly disliked the denethor death scene <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think handling the scene the way it was written would have shown more clearly just how twisted Denethor's mind had become. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>i agree. it would have set an entirely different mood to the scene as well. with him hurling himself off the cliff, the whole theater found it comical, and there was a round of applause. if they would have done it how it was in the books, it would have been more creepy and more of a somber mood then the great leap. also i didn't like how they didn't show the palantir because denethor was shown as a mean dude in tttee, so it wasn't just after boromir died that he wasn't nice...i think they needed to explain that more.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The ring floating on crusty-lava-stuff (can you tell I'm not a geologist?) for seemingly 5 minutes was dumb and didn't add anything to the drama. Bad addition. <BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>i liked that because it wasn't just the ring sitting there, the ring sat there without melting until frodo decided to live, and while i don't remember that being in the book, i think it was good because it showed how the ring was really linked to frodo's fate and all...so i thought that was good.<P>as for anduril<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Why did it have to be Agent Elrond err... Elrond anyway? Why not the Rangers of the North?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>while i don't like how they did it, i feel that they should have just given him the sword when he first went to rivendell like in the books, it had to be elrond giving him the sword and not the rangers because fotr had already set up that the sword was in rivendell....although the exclusion of the rangers of the north saddened me as well...but probably not as much as ghan-buri-ghan not being included....ahh that was like my favorite part and yeah....maybe ee? maybe?? but yeah i didn't really like the "go home sam" scene either...<p>[ 9:12 PM January 07, 2004: Message edited by: pukel-person ]