What would you as a director have done better?

[samrohan]

This is not a PJ bashing topic, just a place where you reckon you could have produced a better scene or shot. Maybe because of better scenery, special effects or other means.<P>I have always thought I could have selected a better location for the Lorien scenes. The woods should have been greener and included the slopping lawns and more scenes of elves living among the forest and in the city Caras Galadon (sorry about the spelling). Also I would have shown the flet and have Haldir and the company be made aware of Gollum and the oncoming presence of the Orcs as they enter the woods.

[Meela]

Does this include character changes? Because I would have liked to change Legolas's role a bit. Just in the sense that he was too much of an action hero. I would have preferred to see more of him as a general elf, in his natural environment and culture, with more interaction with his fellow elves. Particularly in Lorien, where he spent more time with the other elves in the book.<P>I can't stand that shot of Gandalf yelling as he rides down the slope at Helm's Deep. It rather ruins the whole effect of the scene. I'm not sure how to change it, but I would definitely alter it slightly.<P>I would make Lorien less blue. It may create the right atmosphere, but it is way too much like a studio.

[Evisse the Blue]

Lothlorien would also be the subject of my change. I would have tried to make it more colourful, shining, a fairy-tale land, something that would mhave a bigger impact on the viewers and make them go 'oooh!', so that even the person who hasn't read LOTR would catch a glimpse of its beauty. I realize this is very vague and difficult to do, but, well, I'm no director...<BR>I would make the battles scenes shorter - though some people find them 'cool', an equal number of people find them 'boring', and add character-developing scenes, like Meela suggested with Legolas. I'd also try to stick to the original dialogue as much as possible, keeping the archaisms and specific phrase-structures, to create that certain ancient 'feel'.

[the phantom]

I'd change Lothlorien.<P>I think almost anybody who's read the books would change Lothlorien.<P>That's about the only location I'd shoot differently. I think the direction was excellent, as was the actual filming of the scenes.<P>Most of my problems were with changes made to characters and plot lines. Here's some instances where I'd follow the book more closely-<P>1) I'd make Faramir noble and wise.<BR>2) Treebeard wouldn't have to be tricked into attacking Isengard.<BR>3) Arwen would have her screen time cut by about 99 percent (even though she's hot).<BR>4) There'd be no elves at Helm's Deep.<BR>5) Did I mention I'd have Faramir be better?<BR>6) Eomer would already be in Helm's Deep with Aragorn and company.<BR>7) There'd be more than three hundred men at Helm's Deep.<BR>8) Aragorn would not fall off a cliff.<BR>9) Treebeard wouldn't act mean and thick headed when he first meets Merry and Pippin.<BR>10) In case I forgot, I'd make Faramir a better guy.<P>But I think the most important thing I'd do would be <B>change Lothlorien</B>!<p>[ September 18, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ]

[peonydeepdelver]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Does this include character changes? Because I would have liked to change Legolas's role a bit. Just in the sense that he was too much of an action hero. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes! If he wasn't such an action hero, I bet we'd have about 1.8786 percent less rabid Orli fans.<P>I would definitely not make it seem like Merry and Pippin just joined by accident by running into Frodo and Sam in their escape from Farmer Maggot.

[Elennar Starfire]

Ok, here comes a long post.<P>I would cut each book in half, and make six movies instead of three. That way not so much would be cut out.<P>Merry and Pippin would not seem like such idiots, they would have more of a purpose than just being comic relief. Tolkien didn't write them as such fools.<P>I would have included all of Bilbo's speech, and not had M&P set off the firework.<BR>(though that was a very fun scene) Also the hobbits would not have thought it was a real dragon, after all, they <I>did</I> see it going up. They<I> would</I> have ducked when it flew low over their heads, that is a logical reaction to something like that.<P>Frodo would leave Bag end with Sam and Pippin, Merry would have gone ahead, like in the book. I can see a great dramatic scene in which (like the book) Merry comes looking for them because they're so late, and they hear the horse coming and think it's a Nazgul. That could have been very well done.<P>I would include the Old Forest, and a bit of Tom Bombadil, though his part would be cut down some.<P>I would include the Barrow-Downs.<P>In Bree, Frodo would sing that little song that he sang in the book, he would fall off the table and accidentally put on the ring.<P>I would include Gandalf's note to Frodo.<P>I would not have cut Glorfindel just to give Arwen more screen time. <P>Frodo would have resisted the wound longer, not gone Nazgulish right away.<P>Elrond would not scowl all the time.<P>M&P would not run into the council.<P>Boromir wouldn't say so much during the council, he would say all that stuff to Frodo on Amon Hen.<P>Gandalf would not hang on to the edge of the bridge to say, "Fly you fools!" he would shout it while falling.<P>Galadriel wouldn't look like she was about to fall asleep all the time. <P>Boromir would run to help M&P, then later Aragorn would come and find him with the orc arrows in him, no long, slo-mo death scene. Later when M&P tell the story there would be some flashbacks.<BR> <BR>Well, you get the idea. I would follow the books much more closely. I won't bother you with everything I would do differently in TTT, I'll just say that I agree with all the things you people have already said about Faramir, the Ents, and Aragorn falling off the cliff.

[the phantom]

Well Elennar, I agree with everything you said except one. I would leave Boromir's death scene just the way it was (actually, the way it was on the extended version).<P>That scene was the favorite of many, many, many people. It was also one of my favorites. I found it very moving (along with the music for it).<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Elrond would not scowl all the time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No kidding! Hugo did a great job playing Elrond's part, it's just that PJ wrote the part all wrong. He was trying to make Elrond imperfect so his character could evolve and have a change of heart and all that other unecessary garbage.

[samrohan]

Elennar, that is a good list, I will do one when I have time. However I would point out that all those inclusions would make an incredibly long movie.<BR>But I would like that.

[samrohan]

OK here goes:<P>If I had directed the LOTR and the TT I would have done the following things different:<P>1- Lothlorien would have been greener and we would have seen more elves as they are portrayed in the book.<P>2- Elves would be protrayed less rigidly but more like the book, nearly child-like sometimes in behaviour. I do not mean immature but able to smile and appreciate things as opposed to stone faced characters.<P>3- Glorfindel would have been included, Arwen not so much....(This is a running trend) <P>4- Pippin would remain like in the film but Merry would beshown more sensible and smart like in the book.<P>5- I would have included the fighting with the Wargs on the Weather top after leaving Rivendell.<P>6- I would have included Ted Sandyman and the apple scene as his interaction with Sam is fun!!!<P>7- I would have the whole Eomer scenes done according to the book. The real story is much nicer to the film.<P>8- No elfs in Helms deep for sure.<P>9- I would have included the scenes where the two hobbits spent time in Fangorn's retreat drinking the spring Entish water.<P>10 - Some of the Old Forest should have been included.<P>11- Farmer Maggot and his mushrooms would have been filmed so would have Rose been.<P>12- The Fireworks would have not been turned into a farce as Merry and Pippin would never have been so foolish.<P>13- The four hobbits conspiring and knowing about Frodo wanting to leave the SHire would have been in my movie.<P>14- Therefore the ridiculous scene when they bump into each other in the corn field would not have been.<P>15- The fighting scenes between the two wizards would not have taken place.<P>16- Haldir and the flet scene would have been a lovely scene.<P>17- The crossing of the Nimrodel would have made for another scene with the binding of the eyes and Gimli feeling left out.<P>18- After leaving Moria, they should have been in the valley with the samll lakes ( can't remember the name)<P>19- Legolas would not have been such a stuntman but more of an elf.<P>20- Gimli would have been filmed with more respect.<P>21- Boromir in my eyes should have had black hair not blonde.<P>22- The scenes in Rivendell between Aragorn and Arwen should never have been.<P>23- Legolas should have shot at the Nazgul while on the river after leaving Lothlorien.<P>24- The scene of the gift from the lady of the wood would have been a lovely series of scenes.<P>25- Ithilien should have been filmed in the Mediterranean Oak and pine forests with the warmth described in the book.<P>26- Faramir should have stuck to the book not taken the hobbits to Osgiliath.<P>27- Though it is a nice scene there is no way that the Uruks should be shown to be born from the muck.<P>28- I wanted to show Huorns.<P>29- Fangorn should have mentioned Entwives.<P>30- Eowyn has the best actress and most conform to the book in her style and physic. BRAVO I LOVE HER...<P>31- I would have had PJ as my assistant because he did film the LOTR brilliantly.<P>32- I still don't know if I would have included TOm Bombadil but Richard Attenbrough would have been my choice if I had.<P>I can't wait to see the ROTK and in future the Hobbit. But I want PJ to give me a call if he needs an assistant director.

[Meela]

Wow, you people want a lot of things in there...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 28- I wanted to show Huorns. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Aren't they making an appearance in TTT:Ext?

[peonydeepdelver]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Boromir would run to help M&P, then later Aragorn would come and find him with the orc arrows in him, no long, slo-mo death scene. Later when M&P tell the story there would be some flashbacks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Though I also liked the death scene, it would be a nice scene if they did have M&P narrate what happened to Boromir as they flashback to the battle.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR> 28- I wanted to show Huorns. <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>Aren't they making an appearance in TTT:Ext?<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think so. 'Cause in the preview Pippin sees them and Treebeard says, "They have business with the Orcs."

[Frodo2968thewhite]

I would:<BR>-keep Tom Bombadil in the movie<BR>-explain the Istari & Gandalf's rebirth better<P>I'm way too tired to think of anymore now! I'll post some more later!<p>[ September 19, 2003: Message edited by: Frodo2968thewhite ]

[Dragon Elf odin Ragnorock]

what I would have done was <P>1. cnage the last march of the Ents so you could see all of the Ents and see how namy there were<P>2.change Gollom's apperance just little<P>3. make Elrond not look so mad all the time

[The Saucepan Man]

I would change the films so that they were just like the Books in every detail, and so would comprise 6 six hour films filled with dialogue and numerous characters who make only fleeting appearances, and so would appeal only to us Tolkienites, and so would never have been made in the first place.

36 hours of lord of the rings mmmmmmm

[Burzdol]

The main thing I would have done different is downsize Legolas, he seemed to have a bigger role than Aragorn or Gimli. I thought Gimli and Legolas would be equal in role and Aragorn would have a larger part.<P>Actually there is another annoying thing. Arwen. She shouldn't have been in for Glorfindel to save Frodo. I really didn't like that.

[Evisse the Blue]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Boromir in my eyes should have had black hair not blonde. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sean Bean's not blonde! He's got brown hair.<P>Ah, here's to you Saucepan man, and the movie that was never made! ::drains cup of 1420::

[Evisse the Blue]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Besides, what would be the point if you made it so no one could read the books and discover new things? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, instead what you get like this are people who see the movies and don't like the book because they expect something totally different from it, and people who don't even think about reading the books after seeing the movies. The exceptions would have discovered Tolkien even without the movies sooner or later.<BR>Don't even make me start on how I'd enjoy 6 (and more) hours of LOTR - you don't have to watch them all at once, if that's what you're afraid of. The amount of detail that goes into everything, every piece of dialogue reproduced, every nuance captured...ah, I'm just a sucker for detail. Probably I'm a vestige of a long gone world...

[Elladan and Elrohir]

OK, a bunch of other people have put what they have done differently, so I guess I will, too...<P>My list probably won't be much different from anybody else's, but here goes:<P>1. In the beginning, I would include more historical background (such as how Numenor fell, and how Elendil and Gil-galad formed the Last Alliance and marched on Mordor. The movie just focuses on Isildur and doesn't even mention Elendil).<P>2. I wouldn't have Frodo acting like a little kid when Gandalf first shows up in Hobbiton.<P>3. I would make Bilbo's Farewell Speech longer and include the blinding flash from Gandalf at the end.<P>4. I would not show the Nazgul leaving Mordor until after Gandalf's conversation with Frodo at Bag End.<P>5. I would not include the wizardry battle between Saruman and Gandalf in Orthanc. Sure, it looks cool, but it's completely against the book! The Istari were PROHIBITED from doing stuff like that!<P>6. I would include everything in Crickhollow, in order to develop the characters of Merry and Pippin (and Sam), and show their interest in Frodo's Quest.<P>7. I would include the Old Forest, Tom Bombadil's House, and the Barrow Downs.<P>8. The Prancing Pony Inn would not be so sinister-looking. Barliman Butterbur, Nob and Bob would be fully introduced. Frodo's "accident" in the Common Room would be included.<P>9. Strider would not appear quite so sinister at the beginning when we first meet him.<P>10. The attack at Weathertop would occur at the camp on the side of Weathertop Hill, not at the Summit itself.<P>11. Arwen, duh. Glorfindel rocks!<P>12. I would show the Flight to the Ford as it happened (it truly is an awesome moment in the book when Frodo confronts the Nine!).<P>13. I would show (or at least mention) the reforging of Narsil at Rivendell.<P>14. I would tell who Boromir is (as far as I can tell, we are told nothing about him at Rivendell beyond his name).<P>15. The storm at Caradhras would be caused by the mountain itself, or just possibly Sauron, but by no means Saruman.<P>16. Gandalf, not Frodo, would have figured out the password to open the Gate of Moria.<P>17. Lothlorien would have actually been beautiful.<P>18. Sam as well as Frodo would have looked into the Mirror of Galadriel.<P>19. Galadriel would NOT have told Frodo that Boromir would try to take the Ring!!!<P>20. Saruman would not have bred the Uruk-Hai, since they were bred not by him, but by Sauron in the book.<P>21. Aragorn would NOT, I repeat NOT, have allowed Frodo to go to Mordor without any companion!!!<P>22. Boromir would have been hit by many more arrows before he finally gave out.<P>23. We would catch a glimpse of Gollum as the boats traveled down Anduin.<P>That's just for Fellowship; I haven't seen TTT yet.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'd make Faramir noble and wise. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Did I mention I'd have Faramir be better?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In case I forgot, I'd make Faramir a better guy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> These quotes (all by 'the phantom') pretty much sum up my feelings (as all you guys ought to know by now ).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>In the beginning, I would include more historical background (such as how Numenor fell, and how Elendil and Gil-galad formed the Last Alliance and marched on Mordor. The movie just focuses on Isildur and doesn't even mention Elendil).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> I think PJ left that out so he wouldn't risk inflicting further confusion upon the non-book reading movie-goers (lets face it: LOTR has roughly 3 million charcters, plots, & sub-plots as it is! ).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The Istari were PROHIBITED from doing stuff like that!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Heh, they were also prohibited from seeking to dominate the entire world...but I'm afraid that didn't stop Saruman much.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I would tell who Boromir is (as far as I can tell, we are told nothing about him at Rivendell beyond his name).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Although we aren't told much, we are told his name, the fact that his father is quite important in Gondor, & that he obviously has different ideas about the Ring then others. Not much, but a bit more than his name .<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Saruman would not have bred the Uruk-Hai, since they were bred not by him, but by Sauron in the book<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually Saruman did breed orcs & goblin men to make his own 'better' army.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Boromir would have been hit by many more arrows before he finally gave out <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'd intially agree, but check out the size of those arrows ! They're more like broomsticks.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>We would catch a glimpse of Gollum as the boats traveled down Anduin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You do get a short glimpse of him in the Extended Version.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I haven't seen TTT yet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>September 20th & you still haven't seen TTT!!?? You've got much more self-control than me, man! <P> I'm not out to get you or pick on you, but I wanted to reply to some of those things you said, Elladan & Elrohir. & I do agree with you on about half of the things you brought up. <p>[ September 20, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Yes! If he wasn't such an action hero, I bet we'd have about 1.8786 percent less rabid Orli fans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Er right...I just want to point out that (ok firstly, I'm not <I>rabid</I>, ok, I'm quite safe) I didn't like Leggy because he was an action hero, quite frankly (I know this is going to sound really shallow, but I'm afraid it's the simple truth) I like him because he's so fit!!! And then finding that Orli wasn't a big-headed...um...ahem....anyway...unlike Ashton Kutcher just kind of reinforced it a bit.... <P>I don't think I'd include Tom Bombadil because in my opinion he was too out of this world to be mutilated by cinena- even if I was the director. But I'd put in David Attenborough (who is Richard?), he knows so much about animals and stuff...hehehe<P>I also disagree with having 36 hours of film or whatever it was...I tried watching the animated version which was a bit closer to the books, and I couldn't bear it. Sam was just annoying...and Frodo was taller than the others! Books are books, and films are films. You have to keep films watchable, or there's no point to them.<P>I'd do all those regular changes- not have Pippin and Merry be such fools, so that Pippin wouldn't have to trick Treebeard to show he's grown up a bit...have the Éomer story as it was...etc etc, you guys have said it all already.<P>And if it is true that the Dúnedain are to be missed out in RotK, then I'd include them.<p>[ September 21, 2003: Message edited by: Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 ]

[Elladan and Elrohir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think PJ left that out so he wouldn't risk inflicting further confusion upon the non-book reading movie-goers (lets face it: LOTR has roughly 3 million charcters, plots, & sub-plots as it is! :eek). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, understand that one, but the way I see it, if you can't tie all that in at the beginning, just have Gandalf explain it in his conversation with Frodo.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Heh, they were also prohibited from seeking to dominate the entire world...but I'm afraid that didn't stop Saruman much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It would have stopped Gandalf.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Although we aren't told much, we are told his name, the fact that his father is quite important in Gondor, & that he obviously has different ideas about the Ring then others. Not much, but a bit more than his name . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Which is nothing compared to what we are told about him in the book, and it wouldn't take much to tell everything that is told about him in Rivendell. We don't even know WHY he's there, for crying out loud!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Actually Saruman did breed orcs & goblin men to make his own 'better' army. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He bred Half-Orcs, but those were very different from the Uruk-Hai.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'd intially agree, but check out the size of those arrows :eek! They're more like broomsticks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So make 'em smaller. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> You do get a short glimpse of him in the Extended Version. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> Cool!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> September 20th & you still haven't seen TTT!!?? You've got much more self-control than me, man! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually it has more to do with me being 14. My dad, who's read the book many times, would've let me watch the movies a long time ago, but my mom, who's also read the book, didn't want my mental picture of it to be spoiled by watching the movie, or some such mumbo-jumbo. I only saw Fellowship a couple of weeks ago at my cousin's house, and I will be seeing Two Towers soon. Hopefully I'll get a chance to watch Return of the King in theatres!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm not out to get you or pick on you, but I wanted to reply to some of those things you said, Elladan & Elrohir. & I do agree with you on about half of the things you brought up. :cool <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey, I understand friendly discussion. I do it all the time. No offense taken; we all have our own opinions.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>We don't even know WHY he's there <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I got the picture he was 'summoned' (listen to Elrond's opening speech) there to answer the threat of Mordor. Completly different from the books, but oh well. Btw: You don't see mutch of Gollum, only a floating log, a bit of his hands, & then a quick view of the shore from his view, so don't get your hopes up!

[Elennar Starfire]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Well Elennar, I agree with everything you said except one. I would leave Boromir's death scene just the way it was (actually, the way it was on the extended version). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I would have left it the same, but it would be flashbacks, not a long, slo-mo scene.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> However I would point out that all those inclusions would make an incredibly long movie.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, that's why it would be six movies instead of three.<P>I would probably be a lousy director, but if I were a director, I would always try to be as true to the books I made movies of as possible. I just want to say that I love the movies as they are, and I understand that parts had to be changed. No PJ bashing coming from me, I just would have done things differently.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I would probably be a lousy director, but if I were a director, I would always try to be as true to the books I made movies of as possible. I just want to say that I love the movies as they are, and I understand that parts had to be changed. No PJ bashing coming from me, I just would have done things differently. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ditto from here. Maybe tomorrow I'll post all the stuff I LOVED about the movie (some I liked even better than the book, like Boromir's death, for example).

lets be honest here if i was the director:<P>1. 1% of you would have seen the film (not films no one would fund a second one)<P>2. 100% of that 1% would be looking for a tree to hang me from (for the great injustice to the books that i would have done <P>3. im just glad that PJ did the films instead of me (whether or not completely faithful to the books the films have turned out very well so far.)

[samrohan]

Despite PJ making a great set of films, we are intitled to our opinions. <BR>Someone mentioned 6 movies of 6 hours. I would love it. Just imagine it as a series instead of a film. Nobody reads through the books in one shot either do they?<BR>You could watch a couple of hours and so on...

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Someone mentioned 6 movies of 6 hours. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Er, that was me. And I did so with my tongue firmly in my cheek. My point was that to make the films like most people are suggesting would have required at least that amount of film time. And so the films would never have been made. They needed to be commercial successes in order to recoup the massive budgets required to bring Middle-earth to life.<P>And I'm not sure if I could sit through a 6 hour film, even one based upon a book which I enjoy so much. Watching FotR again last Sunday (the cinema version) brought it home to me again just how long 3 hours is to be sitting watching a film ...<P>Much as I would have loved to have seen many of my favourite parts of the books, in particular the Conspiracy Unmasked at Crickhollow and a proper introduction of Merry and Pippin, I accept that cuts inevitably had to be made.<P>So, there is very little that I would change in the films and the changes that I would make would have more to do with making the story that they tell make more sense than following the books more closely.<P>One major change that I would make (and which would I think take the films closer to the books) relates to Frodo's character. This didn't bother me at first, but the more I watch the films, the more I notice how wimpish film Frodo is. The number of times that he falls over backwards is astounding - heck he even does it after looking into Galadriel's mirror. And his eye rolling is so repetitive in TTT that it becomes plain irritating. “Ah, Frodo’s eyes are rolling up again … the Ring must be pulling on him again …” <P>So, I would make Frodo a stronger character. For example, I would have him putting up more of a fight at Weathertop and not deteriorating quite so quickly after being stabbed by the Morgul blade. However, much as I would like to have seen him confront the Ringwraiths at the Ford of Bruinen, I would on balance keep this the way it was done, since it is important to establish Arwen’s character in these scenes. If Aragorn's treatment of Eowyn is to make any sense and his marriage to Arwen is to have any impact, she has to be established as one of the key characters.<P>The strengthening of Frodo's character would have the added advantage of providing further scope for his deterioration during TTT, so that he would not be such a wreck by the end of the film – something which makes me wonder just how much lower he can go in RotK. The increasing effect of the Ring on Frodo as he nears Mordor is a crucial element to bring out, but it should be done with far more subtlety, rather than simply racking up the eye rolling. <P>That aside, there is really very little that I would change about FotR. <P>As for TTT, there is more that I would want to change based, as I said, on things that just don’t add up for me.<BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>First, I would have Gandalf overthrow Saruman's influence over Theoden through the power of his words, rather than having him perform an exorcism. If Theoden is possessed by Saruman, why does Saruman need Wormtongue? Having it more like it is in the book (perhaps accentuated by the odd effect - like with Bilbo in FotR) makes more sense of Wormtongue's role at Edoras.<P><LI>I would retain the battle with the Warg-riders (provided that the WETA people could have come up with more Warg-like Wargs), since Saruman did employ Warg-riders in battle (at the Battles of the Ford of Isen, for example), and it looks spectacular on film (until you see the Wargs close up, of course ). I would, however, lose Aragorn being dragged over the cliff entirely. Everyone knows Aragorn will survive. He is too much of a central character not to, so it adds little in the way of tension. And it adds nothing to the story, save having him spot Saruman's army - and a well-placed scout could have done that.<P><LI>I would retain all of the scenes with Arwen. As I have already said, she is a key character in the trilogy of films, and rightly so, so she needs to have important scenes in TTT despite (thankfully) not being involved in the action. But Aragorn does not need to fall over a cliff in order for these scenes to be included. They could be incorporated elsewhere. I quite like the fact that audiences are given the impression that when she leaves Rivendell, she is going to the Grey Havens. It works to good dramatic effect, and will do so again when she turns up in RotK bearing Aragorn's banner (as I believe that she will). I would try to make Elrond appear a little less overbearing, although it is difficult, given that (in order for the audience to think that she has left for the Grey Havens) there needs to be a very <I>very</I> good reason why she might conceivably do this despite her love for Aragorn.<P><LI>I would also not have the Ents tricked into attacking Isengard. This, I feel, devalues them as characters. The tension in these scenes could be built up, and Merry and Pippin could have their discussion about the Shire, during an extended Entmoot scene. Also, having the Ents march on Isengard straight from the Entmoot would make more sense than having them all disperse and then reappear again within 30 seconds of Treebeard's call.</UL><P>There are other more minor changes that I would consider making, such as having Eomer at Helm's Deep and introducing Erkenbrand, provided that I could make this work without overburdening the story with additional characters and dialogue. <P>Which brings me to Faramir and Osgiliath. Tricky one this. The story of Frodo and Sam in the film (like the other two stories that develop during the film – those of Merry/Pippin and Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli) has to do more than simply take them from the Emyn Muil to the Vale of Morgul. There has to be a story which builds up the tension leading to a final release. In the other two stories the “finale” is provided by the attacks on Isengard and Helm's Deep respectively. Frodo and Sam need a similar conclusion to their TTT story. <P>Of course, many would say that Shelob should have been in the film for this very purpose. But it seems to me that there was never going to be enough time have the Hobbits and Gollum ascend to the pass of Cirith Ungol, for them to see the Black Army marching from Minas Morgul, and to have their encounter with Shelob. Even if there had been no journey to Osgiliath, the scenes at Henneth Annun would have needed extending, to build up Faramir’s character. To have Shelob tacked onto the end of the film would mean that she would, in my view, have insufficient screen time to do her justice. Also, it makes more sense for the audience to see Sauron’s forces, led by the Witch King, march down from Minas Morgul at the beginning of RotK, since it is the precursor to the Seige of Minas Tirith and the Battle of Pelennor Fields. And I still think that Shelob is going to provide a fantastic curtain raiser for the third film.<P>So, after the Gollum scenes, the Dead Marshes and the Black Gate, how to rack up the tension in Frodo and Sam’s story and provide a “finale” to it? Jackson achieved this (to the overwhelming dismay of most fans of the books) by having Faramir take them captive with the intention of bringing the Ring to his father and marching them to Osgiliath en route to Minas Tirith. And I am hard pressed (without Shelob) to think of any other way of doing it. Since we know from FotR that the Ring must be taken to Mordor and destroyed and that it is folly to attempt to use it against Sauron, Faramir’s attempt to take them to Minas Tirith certainly raises the tension. And, of course, Frodo’s run in with the Nazgul in Osgiliath provides the final drama, and Faramir’s decision to let him go provides the tension release.<P>So, I can live with the march to Osgiliath, although I would have preferred it if Faramir had been portrayed in a better light. For example, he could have treated the Hobbits less harshly, and his reluctance in following his chosen course of action brought out more. I would have included more of his wonderful dialogue with Frodo at Henneth Annun and have him say, referring to the Ring, something like “Not for myself would I take it even were I to find it on a highway. But my father desires it so and I am duty bound to deliver it to him”. The reference to his life being forfeit if he let them go could have been brought out at this point, earlier than it is in the film, so that it is made clearer just what is at stake for him. This would draw more of a contrast between him and his brother too.<P>As for the scene with the Nazgul, I dislike the way that this is done, since it reflects badly on Frodo and provides poor justification for Faramir’s decision to let them go, Sam’s speech notwithstanding. But I do like having the appearance of Nazgul at this point. We have only seen a Nazgul mounted on a winged beast once previously in this film, and they will be important in the final film. So, I think that I would have retained this, but have Frodo surprised by the Nazgul, rather than running to meet it, and then confronting it with Sting in hand rather than trying to put the Ring on (that stronger Frodo again). Then, Faramir and his Men could have arrived and let off a volley of arrows, perhaps even killing the Nazgul’s fell beast (after all, Legolas shot one in the book). The strength of character shown by Frodo would then provide far greater justification for Faramir’s decision to release them. Admittedly, it does not show Faramir the folly of trying to use the Ring against Sauron and his forces, but the earlier scenes could have shown that he already recognised this in his heart. Some suitable dialogue, lifted from his conversation with Frodo in the book could also have reiterated this.<P>This still does not wholly get over the problem of Sauron believing Pippin to have the Ring in RotK, as revealed by the early trailer release, but it makes more sense than actually having a Nazgul see Frodo with Ring in hand in Osgiliath. And having Sauron believe the Ring to be on its way to Minas Tirith either with one Hobbit (Frodo) or another (Pippin) provides ample justification for the attack on Gondor and the ensuing seige of Mina Tirith.<P>*Looks up* Oops, sorry to have banged on at such length, but the views expounded on various threads in this forum have made me think at great length on these points, particularly the question of how to deal with Frodo/Sam/Faramir …<P>… I’ll get my coat now. <P>Edit: One further thought. Having Frodo stand up to the Nazgul in Osgiliath would have gone some way towards making up for taking this away from him at Bruinen. <p>[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]