Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXV: On the Borders of Mirkwood - Dead Thread

[A Little Green]

Okay I just read Lommy's most recent post and I'll be astonished if she's innocent. Like, I know it's been a confusing game but this is nuts -

Originally Posted by Lommy

I read Brinn's analysis and I very much agree with the conclusions. It's fairly intriguing Rikae comes to less certain conclusions with the possible remarkable difference of downplaying Shasta's perceived innocence. This *could* point to Rikae being a wolf reluctant to give the village a known innocent, or to Brinn being a bold packmate of Shasta's.

I can't even.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Yes, I think Mac is a very big problem right now for the village. He seems to be very good at leading the innocents astray.

Yes, we can afford for two innocents to vote early and still be able to change our minds last minute. Probably a safe early vote if you have to vote before the Living start voting would be for Nilp, as that would implicate Mac.

Sounds solid. Although another thought - if Mac is the cobbler he's a total genius.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Loslote

AhhhhhhhhhHHHHHHH so close!!

Boromod, I have a question: if we vote to Mediumize Form again, could his disembodied voice ghostly whisper the words "you're all terrible" in the narration?

I think I'll just train myself to better give an Elvish answer...that is to say both yes and no.

That is you don't have the option to make one of yourselves the Medium "to speak." You do have the option to not choose anyone though. Even if Legate votes, if he's the only one, there still won't be one chosen today.

[Loslote]

Hey, we're back!!

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I think it's entirely possible we're too close to numbers being even to discount the use of the Medium vote as what it actually is - a vote.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Thank you! That's what I was trying to get at above. If we follow Mac's scheme or Lommy's, we'll only know what the Dead were trying to say when the lynching's done. IMO the better alternative would be for all of us to do a +-prevote, so if the Dead have a known wolf they can empower those voting them, and if they have known innocents they can empower votes to save them.

THANK YOU to Shasta and Pitch for thinking of us poor Dead.

[Nogrod]

That also makes Pitch look a tad better in my eyes.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

if Mac is the cobbler he's a total genius.

If Pitch is not the Cobbler it might actually be Mac.

Trying to enforce that voting-scheme would have been a genius idea from a cobbler.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Shasta

I think it's entirely possible we're too close to numbers being even to discount the use of the Medium vote as what it actually is - a vote.

Yesssss Shasta thank you.

I can't see Lommy's 'let's muddy the waters on what their votes mean' as anything but wolfish. For bonus points, her 'we think this is stupid' Medium is Pitch - who under Mac's scheme implicates a known innocent.

I think the wolves spotted the Seer-post ((after all, they know who Greenie would see as innocent or guilty!). That means they know Greenie had no known wolves before last Night, and they must suspect she dreamed of Legate. The Seer post hinted at Lommy as last Night's dream - and by Mac's plan, a Lommy wolf would be signalled by a vote for Brinn, which is the easiest to disregard as trolling.

Come to think of it, pointing the finger at Mac by empowering Nilp is also easy to dismiss - 'they were just supporting the person we all know is innocent!'. So it's only Kath who's in danger.

hS

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Because we need to lynch a wolf toDay, not toMorrow. ToMorrow may be too late. If we mislynch toDay and the Ranger fails to foil the Night kill it'll be 3:1:3 toMorrow - in which case the Wolves could just come out and call on the cobbler's support to lynch anybody they like.
I'm getting really really suspicious of Mac right now.

And there's the issue right there. A "known wolf" toMorrow is too late. They NEED to lynch a wolf toDay. Mac and Kath keep insisting there's a known wolf to discover this way, but in the mean time, they're not helping anyone find the actual wolves on the Day it matters.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Pitch

If we mislynch toDay and the Ranger fails to foil the Night kill it'll be 3:1:3 toMorrow - in which case the Wolves could just come out and call on the cobbler's support to lynch anybody they like.

Uh-huh. And we can only help if all 3 innocents vote before all 4 evils.

I assume the Wolves will kill Nilp tonight, since it seems the Ranger protected him last Night. So it would be really nice if we could kill one of them today and not lose...

hS

[Loslote]

Really wishing we could just vote for someone instead of Mediumizing like last game. But that would be too easy...

[Loslote]

Stop with the "empower x" lists, please!!

[Loslote]

Stop. Talking. About. The. Lists!!! Who are you voting for TODAY???

[Formendacil]

The obsession with finding out who Greenie might have dreamed of on Night 4 when they have not figured out the clues she left for the three other Nights is... troubling.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

The obsession with finding out who Greenie might have dreamed of on Night 4 when they have not figured out the clues she left for the three other Nights is... troubling.

Right??? And why in the world is no one talking about who they're going to vote toDay???

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Sorry for not being with your sooner, I had a surprisingly busy day (but I spent part of it right after waking up by reading up on most of this thread - which was before everything else came tumbling down on me. But I must say, delightful read)!

I will try to do my best to make up for everything by accompanying you now, my dear, clueless friends.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Another result that would make me disappear from the planet for a few lifetimes in shame would be seeing Legate here.

I am very glad you did not have to do that back then, Nog! Incidentally, first thing I wanted to do once I got here was to apologise for contributing to your lynch, except... except I realised if I speak strictly and only for myself, I was being perfectly genuine in my intent of lynching you, so... that would be hypocritical of me. But I could say that I would not have minded having you around longer and could have lynched someone else had there been better targets available. To pick one good example for all, in retrospect I would not mind hadGreenie been lynched already then

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

I agree, Form. I'd like to vote that we have a Dead Thread every game, even if the Dead play no role. Just to chat.

Let me just absolutely second... third... tend (?!?) this. I think a DT should always exist, even if for only discussion, however I think it would be better that it should have some power (and obligation) so it motivates and gives the players a purpose, and isn't just empty talk.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I mean granted so far this is just dead villagers, but it is a uniting force you don't get as a "live" player. And just my luck these are the only games I'm immortal in and never die

Then we just gotta keep doing it every game, one Day, you are gonna die early...

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

Some day I want to mod a game.

Well, once this is over...?

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

My guess is Legate is a Wolf. Greenie is the Seer. Greenie is dying tonight.

That was pretty impressive.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Kath

I find myself in agreement with Mac and in opposition to particularly Pitch and a bit less Rikae and Shasta. That kind of naturally pushes me to feeling ok about Mac and not good about Pitch.

There it is! The wolves are pushing Pitch. The innocents NEED to come together and push against the wolves NOW.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Stop with the "empower x" lists, please!!

Now absolutely honestly and disregarding the particularities of this game, of my role, and whether or not this helps anyone - I generally think "using the Dead Thread as channel for lists" is, for lack of better word, un-classy. As long as the Dead can use the Medium to speak their mind freely, that's good, but making the Dead Thread into an instrument, like a computer that just spits out a result after we feed it data, I generally don't like. I actually think that was the reason why Nog originally in his previous game decided not to go the empowering vote-route (because this has been done before, and more often), but to make the Dead vote straightaway. I mean, this is okay - nothing against it - and it can be used for various shenanigans by both parties (and I remember a game when the Living gave a list, then they changed it after the Dead already voted according to the previous list and the Dead would have strangled all the Living in their sleep if they could) - but I think Nog was onto something when he picked a different route.

I'm having an interesting idea - making the Dead disempower a person with their vote (making it count as zero). I mean, it would be perfect ventilation for frustration of the Dead players, could be used to communicate, etc. If I mod again, I'm gonna explore that possibility. (But if anyone wants... think about it. I think it's a nice idea. Maybe it has downsides. Likely it has. Haven't thought of them yet.)

Originally Posted by Loslote

Right??? And why in the world is no one talking about who they're going to vote toDay???

Because that's what people do. To be fair, I think - and after reading this thread I felt reassured in that opinion - that the Dead perceive things differently than the Living. When you are Living, everything until about one hour before you have to vote feels like plenty of time. There's time for everything. Then yes, of course, suddenly you are in a hurry. But you didn't realise it before. There was time to discuss everything in the world from Gifteds and Cobblers and lists to Wolf manicure.

When you're in the DT, you're just waiting... and waiting... and waiting for the bloody Living to say something concrete, and they... just don't. Because time simply passes differently if you're already in the Beyond, seeing everything from the perspective of Eternity rather than living every moment and every post as if it could be your last! Ha! I'm onto some metaphysical revelations here, possibly.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I'm having an interesting idea - making the Dead disempower a person with their vote (making it count as zero). I mean, it would be perfect ventilation for frustration of the Dead players, could be used to communicate, etc. If I mod again, I'm gonna explore that possibility. (But if anyone wants... think about it. I think it's a nice idea. Maybe it has downsides. Likely it has. Haven't thought of them yet.)

What if the Dead had one vote, one empowerment, and one disempowerment to use over the whole game, and they had to use them wisely? That could be fun!

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Rikae

We have three hours, better now than later/never. Okay, alternative suggestion:

If night 4 dream = innocent, no vote
If night 4 dream = wolf, as follows:

If Brinniel is a wolf, empower Kath.
If Kath is a wolf, empower Lommy.
If Macalaure is a wolf, empower Pitch.
If Pitch is a wolf, empower Mac.
If Rikae is a wolf, empower Brinniel.
If Sally is a wolf, empower Nilp.
If Shasta is a wolf, empower Sally.
If Nilp is a wolf, empower Shasta.
If Lommy is a wolf, empower Rikae.

Or some other arrangement that pairs people who are unlikely to be wolves together.

Apparently we are using this list now.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Loslote

What if the Dead had one vote, one empowerment, and one disempowerment to use over the whole game, and they had to use them wisely? That could be fun!

There is something to that! But that would limit those who came "later". If some stupid Dead (or evil Dead, or Cobblers - hi G55 - or whoever) wasted one useful thing on the first Day, then those who came later would be robbed of the chance of even having it as their option.

[Loslote]

Looks like the "safe vote" to indicate we suspect Mac would be Pitch. Since Kath listed Pitch as her number one suspect, that might suggest he isn't a wolf, so I guess Mediumizing him would be okay.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

There is something to that! But that would limit those who came "later". If some stupid Dead (or evil Dead, or Cobblers - hi G55 - or whoever) wasted one useful thing on the first Day, then those who came later would be robbed of the chance of even having it as their option.

Exactly - gives the evil Dead the chance to actually affect the game! Also gives the Dead high stakes decisions to make.

[Loslote]

Also, in Mac's old list, empowering Pitch meant Nilp was a wolf, so they should be unlikely to get confused which list we meant to be voting off of. Definitely we need to wait and see who Pitch votes for, but it sounds like he was leaning towards Mac anyway.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Also, in Mac's old list, empowering Pitch meant Nilp was a wolf, so they should be unlikely to get confused which list we meant to be voting off of. Definitely we need to wait and see who Pitch votes for, but it sounds like he was leaning towards Mac anyway.

This is a good point.

[EDIT--since I can edit with impunity here, I shall emphasise the following is unrelated to Lottie's quote]

In my hypothetical future game, there will be a Ghost: the Dead Thread can send back one member each day to "haunt" the village (selected anew each Night). I haven't thought any further on the mechanics of that (i.e. would the Ghost get to communicate things wholesale, or only be able to give approved messages, or censored messages... but I'm definitely daydreaming about being able to yell at the Living from Beyond.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

This is a good point.

In my hypothetical future game, there will be a Ghost: the Dead Thread can send back one member each day to "haunt" the village (selected anew each Night). I haven't thought any further on the mechanics of that (i.e. would the Ghost get to communicate things wholesale, or only be able to give approved messages, or censored messages... but I'm definitely daydreaming about being able to yell at the Living from Beyond.

Maybe the Ghost can only repeat things they'd posted while alive? So like, if you were the Ghost, you could repeat "you are all terrible" but you couldn't tell them why.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Look, I just think with 5 good votes to 4 evil ones right now, using the Medium vote for information only could be what tips the scale here. If there's a way to do both (info AND as vote strength) I'm all for it.

I do think anyone wanting to have a "no vote" is misguided at best and wolvish at worst. We do not have that luxury.

Thank you Shasta!!!

[Boromir88]

All I can say, is I'm cracking up laughing.

Thanks, I'm glad at least through all the hair pulling you're all enjoying the living thread as much as I am right now.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Maybe the Ghost can only repeat things they'd posted while alive? So like, if you were the Ghost, you could repeat "you are all terrible" but you couldn't tell them why.

You can only post quotes of yourself?

Not a bad twist. There'd probably have to be some rules, like "whole paragraphs only" (i.e. don't quote "the" then "village" then "are" then "idiots") and no italicising/bolding/underlining/etc allowed.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

well, we've made our bed, now let's lie in it. I hope the dead thread can make it work, or we're all potentially very dead.

it would help if you all started voting!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

it would help if you all started voting!

Fascinating--I typed that in all-caps. I did not know that an all-caps post would be automatically de-capsed.

Learn something new all the time.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Exactly - gives the evil Dead the chance to actually affect the game! Also gives the Dead high stakes decisions to make.

Maybe. Interesting thought for sure.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

You can only post quotes of yourself?

Not a bad twist. There'd probably have to be some rules, like "whole paragraphs only" (i.e. don't quote "the" then "village" then "are" then "idiots") and no italicising/bolding/underlining/etc allowed.

Whole paragraphs would be so fun. Even though knowing it, people may be careful in advance and plan how they post so it can be used more easily later on. Which might lead to some rather funny structure of posts.

I would be careful about any "messages" though... people coming back from the Dead has also been used before (although, there it was literally returning, for a Day, bringing info from the Dead, then "dying" again). I didn't particularly like it, it's again one of the things that smells like it isn't phantomproof. My rule no. 1 - if something looks prone to "phantom-ing" on first sight, I'm not using it (or I adjust it so it can't be easily exploited).

But I like the idea of Ghost, in essence. It would only require really thorough planning.

[Formendacil]

So, let me try again (with these sentence having been the safeguard...

IT WOULD HELP IF YOU ALL STARTED VOTING!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Fascinating--I typed that in all-caps. I did not know that an all-caps post would be automatically de-capsed.

Learn something new all the time.

People were shocked by it last time. Also if you try to type a post only with a smiley that consists of pictures of big letters (such as " : D "), it will decap it, therefore making it un-smiley.

But it's one of the ancient policies of the 'Downs and I daresay a clever one. Prevents "caps wars" (not that I think that's a thing anymore).

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Whole paragraphs would be so fun. Even though knowing it, people may be careful in advance and plan how they post so it can be used more easily later on. Which might lead to some rather funny structure of posts.

That could actually be a feature rather than just a quirk: you'd definitely get layers of people getting lynched or suspected for weird set-ups--and Wolves who would be able to backtrack bad posts with "sorry you all took that wrong--just wanted to lay some Ghost Post fodder."

Originally Posted by Legate

I would be careful about any "messages" though... people coming back from the Dead has also been used before (although, there it was literally returning, for a Day, bringing info from the Dead, then "dying" again). I didn't particularly like it, it's again one of the things that smells like it isn't phantomproof. My rule no. 1 - if something looks prone to "phantom-ing" on first sight, I'm not using it (or I adjust it so it can't be easily exploited).

But I like the idea of Ghost, in essence. It would only require really thorough planning.

Definitely--like I said, I haven't thought it through other than to note that would be needed. And phantom-proofing is an especially ironic name, in context.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

People were shocked by it last time. Also if you try to type a post only with a smiley that consists of pictures of big letters (such as " : D "), it will decap it, therefore making it un-smiley.

But it's one of the ancient policies of the 'Downs and I daresay a clever one. Prevents "caps wars" (not that I think that's a thing anymore).

Just goes to show that, in my 15+ years as a Downer, I've apparently never tried an all-caps post!

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Brinn / Shasta / Sally pack, anyone? Nicely flying under our radars the whole time? Scarcely mentioning each other? It suddenly makes a lot of sense to me.

Yep. It's Kath, Mac, and Lommy, 100%.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Well, I currently think Mac and Kath are evil together and Sally feels good. So there's that.

PLEASE listen to Shasta, innocents!!!

[Loslote]

Also, beginning to think Sally or Brinn might be the cobbler.

[Formendacil]

It's drastic, but I almost want a Ranger Reveal, since Nilp has gone exceedingly missing and the village needs someone other than the Wolves and Cobbler directing things.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

It's drastic, but I almost want a Ranger Reveal, since Nilp has gone exceedingly missing and the village needs someone other than the Wolves and Cobbler directing things.

If the Ranger is Shasta or Pitch, and they direct the innocents to vote for Mac or Kath, I'd be all for it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Definitely--like I said, I haven't thought it through other than to note that would be needed. And phantom-proofing is an especially ironic name, in context.

Ha! Didn't realise that. Nice catch.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Just goes to show that, in my 15+ years as a Downer, I've apparently never tried an all-caps post!

Certainly nothing to feel sorry for.

Otherwise - watching the Living Thread for the last, what, over an hour, I haven't had so much fun in ages. It looks like out of a stageplay of something by Franz Kafka.