T-I-G LV Sing when you're winning

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Mac -> Menel
[...]
Gwath -> Nogrod (Nogrod 2, Menel 1, Sally 1)

Gwath takes his first-best suspicion and gets the bandwaggon rolling with it. Careless.

You know, Mac, my vote isn't much different from yours in terms of its context and consequences. Yes, Nogrod already had one vote, but Menel hadn't even been making any weird passive-aggressive attacks against you (as he had towards me). If anything, you had less reason than I for your vote.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Alright, so the Gwath v. Nogrod yesterday. The actual sparring seemed to be an argument over semantics, thus an argument over meaningless crap.

I disagree. The argument, or the issue in question, from my perspective, had to do with what lay behindsemantics. It seemed to me that Nogrod had posed a question in an aggressive way and then tried to string me up for responding in kind. It was necessary to establish certain semantic facts in order to solve the question of whether he had indeed been accusing me, albeit in question form, and therefore whether my defensive response was merited. So, you see, while we were arguing semantics, that was not ultimately what was at stake.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The origins of the Nogrod suspicion was based off some gut feeling of discomfort and Nog seems "off." Isn't that an even more generic reason, and I don't even care if it's Day 1, that's just baloney.

It seemed to me that as the Day wore on, fewer and fewer people were actually reading the argument we'd had and that they were getting their idea of it from what other people had said about it. That's happened to me before, two games ago I think, where something I've said (or not said) gets talked about enough that it takes on a significance and meaning apart from and greater than the fact itself. I rather think that's what happened here. Enough people talked about our argument that it became a greater issue than it necessarily was by nature. That's my take on it, anyway.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Second look at Gwathagor: even though he's sufficiently entertaining, apart from some suspicion against Nogrod since Nogrod criticised him, and one comment on Lariren, Gwath has failed to contribute anything of substance to our cause.

It always takes me a couple of days to get into my WW groove.

[Ilya]

Gwath: Your take on other people's reaction to the argument rings true to me. I certainly didn't go back and read it until today, and, to answer Boro's question, the whole thing took up like 4 posts on the thread between Gwath and Nog before other people ran with it. The actually interaction between the two of them didn't seem that big to me, is probably a more accurate way to put. I didn't mean to downplay the authenticity of their argument.

Lariren is officially awesome, and that analysis was very good indeed.

Brinn: You say that my vote was based on feeling, but so was yours. I'm regretting it now, not only because Bowie seems less suspicious but because I hadn't realized Menel and Nog were running so close in the vote tally and I could have done something about that. Those last 15 minutes were one big klutz-fest.

Brief thoughts before I go to bed:
Mac has fingerprints in both lynch cases, and from what Boro's said I'm beginning to develop some unease.

I kinda don't get Wild Man's suspicion of Brinn. She stayed on point with her suspicions, and was consistent about not wanting Menel lynched. Today she's pushing for analysis of Menel's death, though I think it's legit because of how much early attention Nog got.

Agan might just be the victim of bad timing, and she certainly experienced enough to see what the nog/gwath argument was about, but something's telling me that kind of Day 1 argument does nothing but stir up discussion and nobody should really take the inciting incident that seriously. It seems like it's always ordos who want to start stuff, and the wolves who jump on it later. Does that make any sense?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Ilya

It seems like it's always ordos who want to start stuff, and the wolves who jump on it later. Does that make any sense?

I really think it just depends on the player, Ilya. There are so many differences in style and theory from player to player, that it's very difficult to make that kind of generalization.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Fea

So phantom, now that you're dead, do you intend to help the good guys or the bad guys? Was it specified that dead-but-still-talking OG is on anybody's side but his own?

I was wondering the same thing. Sure, tp can tell us he's on our side, but how do we know that for sure. At this point, tp's just playing for the fun of it, which means he can manipulate us in any way he wants, whether it's for good or bad. And that's exactly what I'd expect from him. While he cannot vote, we all know how much tp loves to tell us what to do. Since his alliances may shift on a Day to Day basis, all the more reason not to listen to him.

Originally Posted by Boro

Nobody asked...if and when someone does, I would ask that the say "please."

Alright then, would you please give a detailed explanation as to why you retracted your vote and voted Menel instead? I already somewhat guessed you reasons, but I don't know for sure if that's accurate and I'd like to hear the explanation in your words.

Originally Posted by Boro

Those I will refuse to duel are tp, Lari, tgwbs, Mac, and Fea, either because I have no reason to or they could smoke me in a duel and I'd lose. I would welcome a challenge though from Agan, Brinn, or Shasta.

Oh, while I'd love to duel you Boro, let us save it for another Day. While I do find you somewhat suspicious with your voting, some of your posts make me feel otherwise. In other words, you're not my lynching priority right now, so therefore I have no reason to duel you. And besides, I won't be here much longer toDay....

Originally Posted by Boro

Why all the big deal about people who were making a big deal about the Nogrod voters?

There's nothing wrong with looking at the Nogrod voters. Not at all. The big deal was that at the time, most players were solely focusing on the Nogrod voters and seemed to forget that Menel was also lynched.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Brinn: You say that my vote was based on feeling, but so was yours.

Yes, but as I said, it's not the reasoning behind your vote that bothers me, but who you voted for and what time you made it.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I apologize for my inactivity toDay. It was the first day of classes of the new semester, and quite stressful. It is now four in the morning. I will post more when I wake up.

I would like to say, however, that apart from one thing that he said that made me raise an eyebrow, my vote for TGWBS was mostly a gut feeling.

[Brinniel]

Okay, some thoughts:

Sally: Haven't heard much from her toDay, surprisingly. YesterDay she was given some attention as a possible candidate. I wouldn't put it past her to make a wolf-Sally look good in the eyes of other players by doing everything in her power to prevent a double lynch. I don't think missing the deadline for her retraction was at all intentional, but I don't think her votes mean she's necessarily innocent and I'm disappointed in anyone who assumes otherwise.

Lariren: There are a lot of flaws in her posts, but it looks to me like typical newbie behaviour. If she's a critic, I would think she'd be partnered with some very experienced players to balance it out. But she looks pretty innocent to me.

Fea: Is a mixed bag. She's obviously trying to mislead someone...the question is whether she's trying to mislead the critics or mislead us...

Kath : Hasn't said much toDay, but says she'll be back (probably by the time I'm gone). So far, she seems pretty sensible and innocent to me.

Aganzir: Yay, it seems we're actually agreeing with each other. Of course, that doesn't mean she's innocent. But she hasn't said anything suspicious so far, so I have no reason to suspect her. However, I will keep an eye on her.

Gwath: Seems like his typical self. Looks alright to me.

Shasta: I want to hear more from him and he says he'll be back later, but once again, I'll probably be gone by then. I do feel sorry that he's already back in school. My classes don't start until the 20th!

Strongbow: I really need to hear more from him.

Mac: Funny, I x-posted with him with a post that seemed to be in a similar format...yet we came to completely different conclusions. Some of his opinions about the voting just seems odd, which makes me feel uneasy. YesterDay I felt okay about him, but toDay I'm getting some bad vibes.

Gollum: Hasn't shown up yet toDay. I understand he was behind yesterDay, but some of the posts he made indicate he was reading the most recent posts and should've known it was close between two candidates. Even if he didn't have a strong opinion on either, voting for someone who turns out to be innocent is better than letting a double lynch occur in my opinion. If he had abstained early in the Day, or his vote wouldn't have mattered anyway, it's not quite so bad. But he was there at a time where every vote was critical and at that point had read at least part of the Day...so I find the fact that he chose not to rather upsetting.

tgwbs: I found his voting yesterDay most suspicious, and I don't feel any better about his posts toDay. He's one of those who solely focused on Noggie's lynching, and I disagree with some of his suspicions. Also, why does he think tp being around makes up for the double lynch? It's still a loss in numbers.

Boromir : As I already said before, I don't at all like his voting record, but his posts don't look overly suspicious. Specifically #310, which has good reasoning behind his thoughts. Nevertheless, I do want to keep a close eye on him.

Cailineomer: I really need to hear more from either of them...two posts is just not enough. Though from the little we've heard so far, nothing suspicious.

So...

Suspicious:
Gollum
tgwbs
Mac

Somewhat Suspicious:
Boromir
Sally

No Idea:
Fea
Aganzir
Shasta
Strongbow

Leaning Innocentish:
Cailineomer

Innocentish:
Lariren
Gwath

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Boro

I can't see how the cobbler would be able to pass on info that xe didn't know xeself. (Did I use that properly?)

Xemself. But Wild Man glad gender-neutral pronoun spread.

Originally Posted by phantom

I will certainly post YouTube links though

Wild Man look forward to more of same.

Originally Posted by Fea

I thought the phantom was the seer. Turns out he was just the phantom. My bad.

This make Fea seem even more critic.

Originally Posted by Fea

So phantom, now that you're dead, do you intend to help the good guys or the bad guys?... Does the Cobbler/Spy get to find out the role of the person s/he spies on, or is that information given only to the Critics? Because if the Cobbler knows her/his marks, than there's an extra player on the side of evil who knows that who s/he may or may not be voting for is ordo.

Although Wild Man now thoroughly prejudice, this seem critic question to him.

Originally Posted by Brinn

In the post before, he said he wouldn't vote her. And then he does. Why the Legate 180?

Read again post 137. Wild Man not say definitely not vote Fea - Wild Man refer to previous thought process, Wild Man unable decide who vote out of Fea, Kath, Gollum. Then, Fea come purposefully talk in riddle again, cause more headache. Therefore Wild Man vote Fea.

Originally Posted by Brinn

About this whole "save Nogrod" thing...It seems that came up when his whole divo comment was brought up via secret code talk. Did you quts really think Noggie was the divo?

Wild Man not "qut". And no, Wild Man think Nog jest about divo. But Wild Man reason, post 192, "Wild Man not like Noggie-votes. Nogrod always like this, no?". Wild Man see no basis to Nogrod-votes.

Wild-Man strongly agree with following Boro sentiment:

Originally Posted by Boro

The origins of the Nogrod suspicion was based off some gut feeling of discomfort and Nog seems "off." Isn't that an even more generic reason, and I don't even care if it's Day 1, that's just baloney...

Originally Posted by Ilya

I kinda don't get Wild Man's suspicion of Brinn.

Film Man find Brinn hard to place. Originally he slightly suspect, then he think she slightly innocent (see continuum-post), now he neutral again.

Originally Posted by Shasta

I would like to say, however, that apart from one thing that he said that made me raise an eyebrow, my vote for TGWBS was mostly a gut feeling.

Thank you for lack of explanation.

[Mithalwen]

for a moddess to read!

*happy*

Few notes... it should be clear that the Phantom isn't going anywhere whatever schemes you kick up because it amuses me that he is around.

The soulmates are not lovers in the usual sense .. both are ordos and they are not out for themselves. That is why I didn't call them lovers....

They are really just shirriffs (Masons) however a surviving soulmate becomes effectively a one strike assassin. Has the power to attack one other once at any later part of the game. Not obliged to use power - little wild card.

Hope that is clear.

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Brinn

Also, why does he think tp being around makes up for the double lynch? It's still a loss in numbers.

Simple. Phantom now function as known innocent, albeit no can vote. All know his viewpoint completely objective. Therefore all can trust phantom.

[Lariren Shadow]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Agan, Lari, and sally do use that against Nog, in effect, "snowballing" this vague feeling of discomfort around Nogrod.

And my question for you three is why did you snowball it?

My answer is I didn't mean to nor did I intend to. I thought that Nog was special, not a critic though. I was actually more suspicious of Gwath in the whole thing, but then read what others were saying and about how that was Nog's usual behavior and how it would make him more of a critic than anyone else so that's why I made the comment.

Long way around. Now I need to go and look at most of the other posts and see about who is saying what.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Boro

Mac's vote for Menel yesterday reminded me of his prior wolvery and denial about how he ever made a "case" against Brinn. But after stating Day 1 concerns I backed off for the rest of the game, only to be completely manhandled by him the rest of the time. I spent many a night beating myself up for never following up. So, whenever I next saw Mac make a move I thought suspicious, I promised myself I would go through with it. I did, and if he's running me around in circles again, at least I followed through this time, and can feel better about it. Basically, my vote for Mac had no good reason other than to make myself feel better for a prior mistake.

Fea always suspects Boro, Boro always suspects me now, I always suspect Nogrod, Nogrod always suspects Gwath. Does anybody have a suggestion how to continue/close this chain?

Originally Posted by Gwath

You know, Mac, my vote isn't much different from yours in terms of its context and consequences.

The difference is that I took a look at everybody and chose Menel because he looked most suspicious (though that was not much, I admit). You didn't look at anybody but Nogrod and Lari, and your look at Nogrod went no further than his case against you.

Originally Posted by Gwath

It always takes me a couple of days to get into my WW groove.

You better speed that up.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Mac has fingerprints in both lynch cases, and from what Boro's said I'm beginning to develop some unease.

Huh the who? First, what fingerprint do I have on Nogrod's carcass? Second, all Boro said about me referred to a previous game and, objectively, that's really not something that should play a central part in ones suspicions (Boro's excluded).


Shasta, you can't announce to give reasons the next Day, then just state that it was gut feeling, and expect not to be suspected by me for that.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Funny, I x-posted with him with a post that seemed to be in a similar format...yet we came to completely different conclusions.

Our format! She sstole it from uss!

But completely different conclusions? As far as I can see, we only really differ on the evaluation of Sally...

[Brinniel]

It's time for me to vote. I hate voting early, especially since while I do have suspects, none of them are really strong enough for lynching. Plus, there's still several players I want to hear more from. But it's already morning and I have yet to sleep.

I'll vote for someone from my top three suspects.

I'm going back and forth on Mac. Part of me finds him suspicious reading some of his posts, then I come across another and am not so sure. My hesitance makes me think it'd not be such a great idea to vote for him just yet. And anyway, I think I'd like to hear more from him.

tgwbs I'm still very suspicious of. Yet, his response to my questioning his vote for Fea makes me feel a bit better about him. Quite honestly, the main reason I'd rather not vote him toDay is because he's such an entertaining asset to the game and innocent or baddie, I think I'd miss him if he were to be lynched so early. If I still continue to suspect him later on, I won't hesitate to vote him...but for at least toDay I think I'll leave him be.

Which leaves Gollum. Part of me feels a bit guilty voting him because he said he wouldn't be around much due to RL, which is understandable. But he was around for a time, however brief it was. Of course he couldn't catch up that fast, but he could've tried to contribute more than he did and instead I think he underperformed. That sort of thing is just bothersome, but what I really find suspicious is that he abstained from voting at a time when he could've prevented a double lynch. It just doesn't make sense to me. And perhaps he can explain his reasons and even change my mind, but he still hasn't arrived and I cannot wait any longer. If Gollum does survive the Day, I hope he will make a stronger effort to contribute in the future.

So, without further ado:

++Gollum

There is a teeny tiny chance I may show up shortly before deadline if I can manage to wake myself up. But I wouldn't count on it. Seriously.

EDIT: Ooh, some X-posting

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Mac

But completely different conclusions? As far as I can see, we only really differ on the evaluation of Sally...

Okay, maybe the word "completely" is exaggerating it, but we do differ on Gwath, Sally, Boro, and perhaps slightly on Aganzir and Kath (I don't think her vote is the most innocent). And of course, we're complete opposites when it comes to the matter of my vote. Also, you didn't exactly share what you thought of this "Saving Private Nogrod" act. Perhaps you stated your opinions elsewhere, but I'm not going to bother looking again through your posts at this hour.

Okay, now I really need to go to bed...

[Lariren Shadow]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

and Lari, and your look at Nogrod went no further than his case against you.

Can you point me to it? Because I've gone through and I don't think he mentioned me once. I really don't think he had a case against me at all. Or do you know something I don't?

[Lariren Shadow]

And Mac your only involvement in the Nog vote was when the phantom suspected you were involved with Nog. Other than that you were pretty much out of it.

And haha, wow I read that previous post wrong. I should have had my coffee first. Don't mind it at all.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nothing wrong with calling a bit of attention to it (like we just did). I'm actually hoping it will be spotted by the Critics and Cobbler. The question is, what will they do about it?

I feel dumb, first of all. Noggie was tripping my radar and I completely missed this post. Of course, it's Phantom (and Fea), so I wouldn't have necessarily listened to them anyway but still. I should have noticed the context of Phantom's post and reread Noggie's with that in mind. Well, hindsight, as they say....

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I want to hear more from Mac before voting him.

Sally has said little of substance. Noggie gives more substance, but I find of what he does say, I tend to disagree with more. Of all the candidates so far, he's the one who gives me the biggest wolfish vibe. A feeling is not much, but it's all I can really offer. I don't have time to give it more thought, and I wouldn't mind at all seeing him lynched.

++Nogrod

Oh boy, I'm gonna be late to my appointment...

I can't really say a whole lot against this. I've had rushed votes as well (and will probably have another one toDay) so while it doesn't look good, I'll admit, I wouldn't condem her for doing this either.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Awwww.... did someone want to get rid of me?

Heh heh heh.

Eh, shaddup. *rolls eyes*

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Yeesh... once I have to vote early and believe that you auditioners are smart enough to not do something terribly foolish, and then that.

*shakes head*

The phantom is immortal now and we have to end...*ahem* be enriched by him til the end? Oh... joy...


I have to apologise to Menel. Had I had more time and would have read your later responses to my vote, I would have retracted. You sounded very innocent there. Sorry.


To business.



Could you explain what you mean by "easy way out"?


Yesterday's voting:

Cailineomer's vote for Nogrod, while somewhat suspicious taken by itself, is probably not a critical one. Why would a critic want to get into trouble with one of the more persuading singers when there was not even an indication then that said singer will be eliminated? It would have been a move that could easily have backfired.
Gwath's vote for Nogrod and Fea's vote for Menel don't smell nice. Both are pushing a bandwaggon.
Brinniel's vote for Nogrod I don't like either. She pushes the bandwaggon with very little reason. Then again, a critic would have known that a Day1-lynching of Nogrod would have attracted interest, so would a critic not rather not have positioned herself in such a spot in a bandwaggon? Hmm..
What to do with Sally's vote? Of course every critic would love to see Nogrod lynched so early, but so much that they would risk their own neck for it by putting a vote in such a prominent space? Hardly. Her retraction looks innocent.
Boro's retraction for Menel is to save Nogrod, of course, but considering that he voted me before mostly because I voted Menel, it's a bit eyebrow-raising. Since obviously he was not happy about either choice, why didn't he at least try to bring up a third option?
Aganzir's vote for Nogrod is consequent - she suspected him for a long time. Not suspicious, unless her suspicions before were fabricated.
Wild man's vote for Menel is not suspicious either. He stated he liked to save Nogrod before.
I'll have a look at the other votes later if I think it might enlighten something.

An analysis of the attempted killing of the phantom would be interesting, but I'm sure tp can do that better than I. I'll leave that burden to him.

Is it? While we still have tp's input, we are still down one in numbers and innocent votes. Painting situation better than situation is be suspicious behaviour, wild man.

It was something completely different. Some of your points on the roles seemed so off to me that I thought you were an innocent trying to confuse the critics.

That's why I think in fact that it may not be Brinn. Would someone really do something that obvious? (Of course, I've made that kind of move as a wolf in another game, and it wasn't a slip so much as a temporary lack of sanity, so anything's possible.)

I want to think about who would have killed Phantom in more detail, but it's too early, so I'll have to get to it in the Night.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Sorry guys. I thought I was helping to prevent a double lynch. However I'm not entirely displeased with what has happened thus far (at least the phantom thing was rather funny), besides I would probably have continued to suspect Nog today anyway. However I have a harder time trying to see why Menel was killed. Apparently to save Nog from the gallows yes, but why was he so suspicious in the first place?


Don't know about that. I think his points against sally were not good. What's the sense in accusing someone of something they always do, at least this early?


I did but it was a thing I didn't take very seriously. Divo-Nog could say it, innocent Nog could say it, critic-Nog could say it.

I've noticed Lari's eagerness to agree on suspicions but I wouldn't lynch her because of it (at least yet) because she's new.

I'm getting more scared of Mac every time he posts. There's something that reminds me awfully much of the Mac-wolf I've seen.

The above comment reminds me of his I-told-you attitude (as in Other Minds and Hands, erm, almost two years ago when Boro I think almost got lynched all of a sudden - I don't remember the details; or in Scouring of the Shire vol.2 when people lynched an innocent probably Menel or Might). I don't know if he's always like that and I've just usually ignored it but those are the things I immediately connected his comment to.

edit: xed with Ilya

Indeed. He's a tricksy one, that Mac. That's, again, why he was at the top of my suspicion list yesterDay. He gives off some sort of vibe that he just knows too much, such as his "we can probably learn a lot from Phantom's death(ish) but I'd rather not comment on it" post. Loosely paraphrased, I know, and that in itself isn't too much of a big deal, but as a whole I'm getting a bit of a bad feeling from Mac still.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Oh great, we get to hear phantom talk for the entire game.

And if he doesn't count towards the tally, then it's really like he was killed...the only difference is that while the dead usually can't talk, he can. So when it comes down to numbers, we still had a loss last Night...am I right?

One thing: It's really bothering me that almost everyone is focusing on Nogrod's death alone. What about Menel? He often gets lynched early and I'm irritated to see it happen again. The sudden turn-around on him which resulted in a double lynch is just as suspicious. Especially these players who seemed to be so certain of Noggie's innocence, they contributed to Menel's lynching (some even retracting). And I will mention another reason I chose Noggie for my vote was because I hoped it'd prevent the lynching of Menel who was being heavily considered at the time. I know how it feels to die early several games in a row, and I don't think it was fair at all for Menel to be lynched so early.

Btw, what's so strange about Nogrod getting lynched on Day 1? It happened in Shasta's game and he was a werewolf. It happened in tp's game and he was a werewolf. So really if you go by record, lynching him on Day 1 seemed like a pretty good idea at the time...

Yeah, see the problem with Menel for me was how he justified his vote for Mac. If you'll notice my posts, I think Menel pretty innocent, but I found his vote (or rather his vote motivations) awkward enough that I was uncomfortable. However, Noggie was a bit more suspicious in my brain, not by much, and he was also ahead in the vote tally, so I wanted to push him ahead. Then the Menel-wagon started moving out and we were at risk for a double lynch again. Dang, was I frustrated.

I don't think I was around for those games, Brinn, but you make a good point. I'm not advocating the lynching of Nog on day one in every game, but he's tricksy, that one, and if I suspect him I'd rather not wait around to find out what he is. (Although I legitimately am sad that he's left so early, and now two games in a row. I'd say 'watch out Boro' but I'm afraid that I would be only too correct in my sarcasm.)

Originally Posted by Cailín

Good day, my pretties.

I am truly sorry about what happened to Nogrod and wish I had not voted for him. I already regretted it when I pressed that fatal Submit Reply button, but I was afraid to invoke the Mother Mod Goddess' wrath by retracting and casting another random vote. It was a foolish decision, especially since I still need to ask him a favour. My manly half was not please with the executive decision either.

(Eomer: "Kill Sally, she deserves it")

That's the longest I ever spent apologising for a vote (to Nogrod, not necessarily to my fellow contestants whom I care somewhat less about). This means I'm sincere.

Our Opera Ghost's reputation is apparently so divine that he actually became so. Interesting decision.

The most sensible person today seems to be Brinniel. I agree with her comments on the Menel-wagon. I'm sad he had to leave us, a great voice and marvellous talent.

Short and sweet. Not a lot to post for our lovely Cailin/Eomer. I'd like to see more from these two. Heh, and I love the little 'oh, and kill Sally while you're at it, darlings' bit. Very cute. *grins*

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Short comment now. More to say later.



But Aganzir, we've been wolves together once: you know that, when evil, I give every effort to appear the exact same way I do when innocent...



*nod of approval*

Yes, and you're brilliant at it. Too brilliant, in fact, and from being your partner before I know just how dangerous you can be, little mister.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Simple. Phantom now function as known innocent, albeit no can vote. All know his viewpoint completely objective. Therefore all can trust phantom.

Incorrect. Well, correct, as we all know he's innocent, but he doesn't count in the innocent tally. So yes, TGWBS, we are in fact down another innocent after last Night.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Mac has fingerprints in both lynch cases, and from what Boro's said I'm beginning to develop some unease.

Yes, but you have to remember that our dear Mac is a smooth one. In fact, that's why the littlest thing sets me off about him, because I've been in his pack before and know how clever he can be. I'm just saying.



Okay, apology time. I had all my quotes done and some reactions when I was afflicted by what I like to call "sudden unexpected headache, can I shoot myself now?" syndrome. Aka I got a migraine and decided a nap was a good plan, but then I didn't wake up again at five or six like I'd planned. Sorry, I know, I'm a bit rubbish at keeping track of time. I'll just submit this now and catch up again. And I'll probably have to vote in the next 45 minutes or so, or else I won't be able to at all.

x'd since the last post I quoted. Ish.

[satansaloser2005]

I think I was a bit off in my x'ing. Meh, my opinions stand, cracked though they may be.

Interesting vote, Brinn. I've gotten nothing solid from Gollum yet (as in I completely forgot he's in the game, which never bodes well, but I guess it's only Day Two) so I suppose if I have to semi-random vote this early in the Day I would not feel too bad about going for him as well. If he ended up innocent and did in fact get lynched, at least it wouldn't be yet another most-likely helpful villager off our roster.

I'll leave it for a bit and go get ready for work, then check the thread again before voting. Sorry, it's early and I'm not a morning person. Back in a bit.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Did you quts really think Noggie was the divo?

No. Like I said, I thought the phantom was special, not Nog, but that the phantom was using Nog as a way to hint without being too obvious. Remember the exchange where he was like, "Wait, you didn't mean Nogrod. In that case, yeah, definitely."? I took that as a clue that I was on the right track: that he hadn't been talking about Nog per se, but that he'd been using Nog to talk about himself.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Basically, you all can trust me. But I will not throw my weight around.

Even that pesky cobbler, huh?

J/K, in case anybody gets too stirred up. I just like knowing all the answers, you know? It irritates me in a really highly irrational way not to know how many players are on each 'side.' And then I remember J.K. Rowling writing "Harry, the world isn't made up of only good guys and Death Eaters" or whatever the exact wording was...

Originally Posted by Boro

I can't see how the cobbler would be able to pass on info that xe didn't know xeself. (Did I use that properly?) That would make a giant continuity problem within the fabric of the performance.

Cobbler sends choice to Mith, Mith sends choice to Critics. I envision it sort of like the Cobbler picks up a packet of information which xe never gets to read. Of, of course, Cobbler PMs Mith, Mith PMs back, Mith PMs Cobbler. I know Mith used the phrase 'blind drop' and I assume that means that the Cobbler doesn't get to PM the Critics (that the Cobbler doesn't know their identity) but I just wondered if it meant that the Cobbler doesn't actually know the info that xe is acquiring.

Originally Posted by B88

Beautiful analysis if I may say so myself Lari

Yes, I totally agree. Informative, concise, and without triggering my ADD reaction like a list of quotes always, always does. Psh, Newbie... You're fair game now.

Originally Posted by Boro again...

Why all the big deal about people who were making a big deal about the Nogrod voters?

Is this rhetorical? I can't help but agree with Brinn. Since during the whole of my thing with the phantom yesterday, I never particularly thought Nog was a bad guy, I watched people jump him with confusion. Of course I knew that singling him out might be harmful, but that's a werewolf truism, and since he was the major example the phantom had brought to my attention, I figured if I had any hope of tp understanding what point I was driving at, I shouldn't start making things up and hope for the best.

So while my vote for Menel was a typical Day 1 style vote from me (is there anybody here that doesn't know my complete derision for Day One votes? It's a bunch of uninformed people making determinative decisions based on (if they're ordo) absolutely nothing that can - in a scientific environment - be called fact. Hence, it irritates me much the same way teaching ID in a bio classroom 'because you can't prove it isn't true' irritates me.)...

While my Menel vote was basically, "Well, I went down a list and couldn't find a better option..." it was weird seeing everybody jump on Nog given that his only real stand out action of the game was hinting that he might indeed be a good guy.

Hence the reason people are curious about the bandwagon onto Nog. Now my suggestion for that is that a Critic voted Nog early (I don't think late, due to the flurry of cross-posts: it strikes me as odd that a Critic would draw that much attention to his/her own lynch-pin vote on the first day of the game), or that it was a bunch of misguided villagers.

So I do understand why everybody wants to trace Nog's descent into hell, but I'm also curious why people followed up on my admittedly random Menel vote. "I can't think of anybody better" is nothing at all like "He did something suspicious." So in a tie-race between two ordos wherein the voters were trying their best to save one by killing the other, when it turns out that seriously, neither of them were Gifted? On day one?

The person I find most interesting at the moment, actually, looking back over the votes and the timing, is Sally.

Sal, have you said why you retracted? My only interest in the timing of it was purely practical: yesterday at Day End I wanted to know if it counted. But today, though it didn't count, I want to know why you tried saving Nog when, as it turns out, he was no more important than Menel.

Originally Posted by Ilya

It seems like it's always ordos who want to start stuff, and the wolves who jump on it later. Does that make any sense?

It makes sense, but I'm not sure if I agree. It makes sense because if a wolf jumps onto an idea after an Ordo, it can't be directly traced back to them: they can say, "But it seemed like so-and-so really knew what they were talking about, and I'd thought the same, so when somebody backed up my suspicion - so sorry it was wrong - it seemed obvious that I should vote the same way" or whatever.

At the same time, I've seen situations where wolves start stuff just to cause enough trouble so that people have to look at everybody, not just one or two people.

But I do basically agree with you: typically it's misguided ordos who mess things up. As a historical footnote, it makes me think of civilians listening to war time propaganda: with the informed people nudging people's opinions, the ordos can't entirely be blamed for mistaking fake stuff as fact.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Sure, tp can tell us he's on our side, but how do we know that for sure.

Well, if we find out if he either always tells the truth or always tells a lie, then we should ask him what the guy next to him would say because then either way the answer is a lie because the guy telling the truth would quote the liar with the lie, and the liar would be lying, so...

/Labyrinth.

Dear David Bowie: I am still in love with your makeup. ♥me.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Since his alliances may shift on a Day to Day basis, all the more reason not to listen to him.

On a more-serious-than-movie-reference note, isn't this essentially what we do even when he's not OG? We know he wasn't a critic, and we know he wasn't The Cobbler, but just as if he was still playing, we don't know his priorities (apart from 'himself') and we know he has no special other knowledge he can give us. So I propose this: it's dangerous to assume he's a declared innocent, because he's not: he's a declared OG, which, if you've watched the musical/movie or read the book, Erik was a nutjob serial killer with an absolute skill at torture and manipulate. The trapdoor king. So I propose: we listen to him about as much as we normally do: if his suggestions seem reasonable, we take a shot. If he sounds a bit too much like himself, we skip it.

Everybody follow?

Originally Posted by Mith

Has the power to attack one other once at any later part of the game. Not obliged to use power - little wild card.

Does xe die if xe uses this power (sort of like a Hunter, I'm thinking)?

And is it made public? Like, if one soulmate kicks it, and they're marked out as 'a soulmate died' and the other one decides to use this wild card, as you call it, will there be a narration like "The other soulmate, Player X, killed off Player Y to make up for the death of X's soulmate, Z" or will it be like "Player Y has been killed"?

Originally Posted by TGWBS

All know his viewpoint completely objective. Therefore all can trust phantom.

This creeps me out, Wild Man. Because 1) there's not really any such thing as objectivity, but more importantly 2) the phantom doesn't have any special knowledge that we know of, so anything he says is just as likely to be dead wrong as anything any of the rest of us say. So saying we can all trust him is like saying we can all trust pre-death Nog, or pre-death Menel (examples used because roles are now known). We can trust that the phantom isn't a Critic, but we can't trust that his viewpoints will be of any aid to anybody but the Moddess, who shall be amused by them.

Originally Posted by Sally

I want to think about who would have killed Phantom in more detail, but it's too early, so I'll have to get to it in the Night.

Everybody?

No, but I do agree: later (after I eat) I intend to take a look see about what might draw people to TP (apart from his native egoism).

Originally Posted by Sally

Yes, but you have to remember that our dear Mac is a smooth one. In fact, that's why the littlest thing sets me off about him, because I've been in his pack before and know how clever he can be. I'm just saying.

Ditto that. My first game with Mac we were packmates and we - rather obviously, I must say - won. And another time I played with him, he was a wolf, and he had me totally fooled. Mac keeps me neurotic.

That said, I don't think he's a bad guy in this game. Watch me be wrong...

--

Wow, so finally caught up...

I love going to bed and finding so much to read in the morning. It gives me something to wake up to, my lovelies, please don't desist.

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Fea

2) the phantom doesn't have any special knowledge that we know of, so anything he says is just as likely to be dead wrong as anything any of the rest of us say. So saying we can all trust him is like saying we can all trust pre-death Nog, or pre-death Menel

Wild Man say every game, every game none listen. Perhaps Fea critic. Perhaps Wild Man critic. Therefore, cannot trust what you say, cannot trust what Wild Man say. However, Phantom, and Nog, and Menel, NOT critic. Therefore, though not more knowledgable, still more objective, still can trust.

Wild Man obviously glad Brinn no vote him or Mac. However, Wild Man think unwise vote Gollum. Currently, suspicion of Gollum base on lack of input, which poor reason Day 2. Also, Wild Man think Moddess not make Gollum gifted/critic, therefore innocent.

[satansaloser2005]

Okay, I thought of something while I was away for a bit.

We all know Gollum didn't vote yesterDay. Neither did some other people (another person....whatever) but we know for certain that he was around.

He could have broken the double lynch. He had every opportunity to break the double lynch. Now, I realize he didn't have a lot to base a vote on and I understand that, but I can't see an innocent villager just sitting back and watching the chaos as everyone scrambles to prevent the deaths of two (now known, then potential) innocents. It just sits wrong to me. I don't know who I would have preferred him to vote, honestly, but I think that in that situation (and I know this sounds wrong, but I'm in a rush) I don't care who he would have voted for, so long as he voted to break the tie. (This opinion is obviously biased by the fact that we now know that both Nog and Menl were innocent, but still. I've only seen one successful double lynch -ever- and that's why I think an innocent would have tried to prevent a frivolous one.)

And again, feel free to overrrule me if someone else seems more suspicious, but for now I have to go or I'll be late for work.


++Gollum


If you fine people kill me while I'm gone, so be it, it's been lovely playing with you all. Fortunately, I'm optimistic to survive the Day, and hopefully you can catch a wolf (again, hopefully Gollum, but you know how accurate a blonde like me is) while I'm away. Enjoy the rest of the day dearies!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Therefore, though not more knowledgable, still more objective, still can trust.

Unless his incarnation of OG in game is anything like the Opera Ghost of the books! All I'm saying is we shouldn't trust that just because he's not a critic means he has the best interest of anybody but himself in mind. The Phantom of the literature really loved slipping nooses, 'Punjab lassos,' around the necks of anybody who caught sight of him. So maybe he's the mild mannered incarnation of the romantic music lover of the deep who Andrew Lloyd Webber gave some bone-chilling solos to, or maybe our resident Undead is a bit closer to the character I fell hard for, who was sold to a freak show as a child and whose closest 'friend' was one of the two women in his life who ever pitied him, and I'll hint for you: one wasn't his mother.

From Wiki, about Erik in the novel:

Originally Posted by Wiki

In Gaston Leroux's novel, the Phantom (named Erik) traveled throughout the world after running away from home at a young age. During his travels he visited India where he learned to kill people using the Punjab lasso. According to Erik's old friend, the daroga, the Punjab lasso that Erik wields is "curiously made from catgut" (from the Leonard Wolf translation) and only by placing your hand at the level of your eyes (thus stopping the lasso from closing completely and strangling the victim) can one escape it. This is attributed to Erik's skill at strangling.

When the daroga brought Erik to Persia, he used his skills at using the lasso in his new job as the Shah's personal assassin, a job he excelled at due to his lack of scruples. He also used it to entertain the Sultana.


When Erik moved to France he kept a Punjab lasso in the torture chamber he built. Thus, the victims of the chamber would have the option of ending their lives rather than endure its tortures.


When the sceneshifter, Joseph Buquet, found the entrance to Erik's 'house' in the third cellar of the opera house, he fell into the chamber and used the lasso to kill himself.


Later when the daroga and the Vicomte de Chagny went in search of Christine Daae, whom Erik had kidnapped, they found a used Punjab lasso lying on the ground leading into the Phantom's chamber. Later in their journey to rescue Christine they fell into the torture chamber, where the daroga contemplated using the lasso to end his life as the tortures got worse.

So while we're of course free to assume that Mith would never, ever play games with us wherein she gives the phantom an alter ego known for having no scruples and being an exceptionally brilliant and unrepentant serial killer, I think it's foolish to ignore the literature unless she tells us point blank that the phantom (person, not character) is on the side of the ordos.

Also, Wild Man think Moddess not make Gollum gifted/critic, therefore innocent.

A note on this: I asked Mith pre-game and she told me the roles would be randomized.

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Sally

[Gollum] could have broken the double lynch.

At time, we no know it be double lynch.

Originally Posted by Fea

I asked Mith pre-game and she told me the roles would be randomized.

Wild Man also ask Mith. Mostly randomize, she say.

Re:Opera Ghost. Wild Man think he act in interest of all singer thus far. Also, Wild Man see no independent victory condition for Opera Ghost, seeing as he no can vote, no can die.

[the guy who be short]

Most Innocent
Boro
Kath
-----------------
Brinniel
Gollum
Mac
***************
Lariren-Strongbow-Gwath-Cailineomer
***************
Ilya
Shastanis
Sally
-----------------
Fea-Aganzir
Most Guilty

About two-plus-half man-hour til deadline. Wild Man hope people vote early today, prevent repeat yesterday debacle. Therefore, for previous reason:

++FEANOR

[Cailín]

People.... Day 2 and 9 pages of chatter... I had forgotten how garrulous you all are.

I am pretty much convinced Gollum is innocent and hope a more suitable lynching candidate shall be found. Instead, I am becoming wary of Sally, whose voting behaviour is suspicious (yes, I did think the last minute doubts were odd) and her response to accusations and remarks directed her way is just... Well, she has always been a remarkably fluffy player, of course.

Can I also ask what the point of Ilya's astounding collection of quotations is?

As for the many other players, be assured that I am watching you. In a non-phantom, but actually having the power of a vote-way.

[Lariren Shadow]

While I'm working on my list I believe I have the votes so far right:
Brinn- Gollum
Sally- Gollum
TGWBS- Fea

[Boromir88]

Alright then, would you please give a detailed explanation as to why you retracted your vote and voted Menel instead?~Brinn

Sure thing. I didn't want Nog gone on Day 1. I felt obligated to try and stop his lynching on Day 1, as he has done many more times for me. And why Menel? There wasn't anyone else, and the adrenaline at the end got to me. I saw things that Menel said that at the time looked suspicious; which I pointed out.

Specifically:

If you found something suspicious, I think everyone deserves to hear it.

And I said to reply:

Who said what was surmised about Nogrod, between them, was something suspicious?

It looked like Menel was trying to get a reason to, if not vote for Nog himself, get others to find Nog suspicious. So, I asked, who ever said what tp and Fea were clueing at was something suspicious?

At the time I thought it suspicious (odd, strange, whatever you want to call it) that Menel assumed they found something suspicious against Nogrod. It doesn't make any sense now because Menel voted for Mac, and doesn't save himself, and now that it's all over the Menel quote I questioned looks more like frustration towards tp and Fea for speaking in riddles, not about Nogrod at all.

There's nothing wrong with looking at the Nogrod voters. Not at all. The big deal was that at the time, most players were solely focusing on the Nogrod voters and seemed to forget that Menel was also lynched.~Brinn

Fair point and there's no reason we can't be all inclusive.

This make Fea seem even more critic.~tgwbs

This was tgwbs response to Fea saying she thought tp was the seer. If Fea is a critic that doesn't look very good. She is capable of being absolutely blunt about her choices and her thoughts.

Although Wild Man now thoroughly prejudice, this seem critic question to him.

And this is Wild Man's response to Fea's questioning about the cobbler. I think with this one prejudice clouds Wild Man's judgement . There has been virtually no cobbler talk and we can't forget about the cobbler in this one. I saw it as a chance to either flush out the real cobbler, or in the very least, get us talking about the cobbler.

My answer is I didn't mean to nor did I intend to.~Lari

That makes sense, and now I'm 98% confident in your innocence. One of the things that bothered me was when you said something like "By the looks of it I should be suspecting Nogrod."

I chalked it up as either a new wolf making a slip, or a new singer trying to find her range. Your explanation makes me believe the latter.

Huh the who? First, what fingerprint do I have on Nogrod's carcass? Second, all Boro said about me referred to a previous game and, objectively, that's really not something that should play a central part in ones suspicions (Boro's excluded).~Mac

Nice catch. That made me perk up pretty fast too, because I have no idea what I said today, and why Ilya said what she thought I said.

Ok, that's a mess, so let me just ask you Ilya - what did I say about Mac that you're referring to? Also, how was Mac involved in the Nogrod voters?

I can't really say a whole lot against this. I've had rushed votes as well (and will probably have another one toDay) so while it doesn't look good, I'll admit, I wouldn't condem her for doing this either.~sally

I will say Brinn's vote looks honestly innocent, now whether she's being honest and innocent or faking it, that is still to be determined.

I know Mith used the phrase 'blind drop' and I assume that means that the Cobbler doesn't get to PM the Critics (that the Cobbler doesn't know their identity) but I just wondered if it meant that the Cobbler doesn't actually know the info that xe is acquiring.~Fea

But see the massive inconsistancy? How could you justify a dead drop info to the wolves if the Cobbler doesn't know the info xe is dropping off? Xe's a sneak, not a hallucinajenic.

edit: crossed with everyone since Fea's post

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Page One:

Says Gwath will be unjustly lynched (seems like a joke).
Says Nog will help him (the phantom) catch the critics (seen as a seer hint?).
Says Cailineomer will die at night.
Says I'm up to something (no surprise there, I'm always up to something).
Says Lari's safe a few days (newbie free pass).
Says he can't talk to Boro (reference to The Republic).
Says Agan's a critic.
Says Sally's innocent.

Claims he was the first Seer dream.

Page Two:

Says Nog will show everybody how to sing. Boro catches this and mentions it later. 'Sing like a bird' maybe remembered by ordos as slang for somebody giving up knowledge/maybe people thought he was the Cobbler, which might explain the lynching.

Says it's the first time he's ever been afraid of the cobbler, that the cobbler will dream of gifteds and tell the wolves. If phantom was ordo, he always points out that the only use of an ordo really is to distract the critics from the gifteds. Since that's the only use of an ordo, if the phantom was ordo, he shouldn't be afraid of the cobbler. Logical progression to 'phantom must be gifted if phantom is worried about cobbler'?

Says it's a terrible idea for the seer to try to look like the cobbler to survive at night. Says a post or so later that he is the cobbler.

Hero worships Alan Rickman.

Page 3.

Is impressed with Strongbow for researching - says won't vote for him.

Says if he was a Critic, he'd be gunning for the Lovers.

Says that Mac figured something out, but only partially. (Later explains this as 'I wanted him to think I was a Lover, but didn't want to pin down a specific partner.')

Says to the werewolves "You will kill Nog" in attempt to 'subtly manipulate.' You know, subtly.

Page 4.

--

Okay, have to go for now, but I'll get back to this later...

[the phantom]

At this stage we're still just treading water. Until the Seer, a Critic, or possibly Walter show up dead, we cannot pretend to know much.

In these sorts of situations I generally take a blind shot at a submarine. I mean- you know the Critics aren't going to off them. No, no, the Critics will be attempting to off the Lovers or the Seer. And why might they think someone is a Lover or the Seer? Because of their words.

And so it follows that the more you speak the more likely it is that you will say something that will cause the Critics to fear that you are gifted.

That should be a bit of comfort to those of you who fear Fea or Boro- if they aren't Critics then they'll be Night killed rather soon. For without a doubt the both have them have said something incriminating (from the perspective of the Critics).

Overall, I would encourage any Ordo out there to offer yourself to the Critics tonight. Make yourself look like a juicy target.

Phantom has spoken.

Shamed into solitude
Shunned by the multitude
I learned to listen
In my dark, my heart heard music

[Aganzir]

Ha I just realised I was at least right about something when listing phantom as neither guilty nor innocent yesterday.

Originally Posted by Mac

But Aganzir, we've been wolves together once: you know that, when evil, I give every effort to appear the exact same way I do when innocent...

I know! But they still remind me of wolfish you.
However from now on I promise to try to come up with some actual reasons for my suspicions because my gut suspicions against sally in last game were disastrous. (This doesn't mean I'd withdraw my Mac suspicions yet though.)

Originally Posted by Ilya

Bowie's doesn't seem intimidated by more experienced players, and since TP wasn't a huge subject of discussion on Day 1, aside from his cryptic playing with Fea, it might've seemed like as good a time as any to remove the threat.

I still fail to see your logic. Why wouldn't anyone else enjoy killing phantom then? Also his post today didn't help me understand his logic much (or well I understand it but I disagree with him). I'm not fond of deciding which is more important to kill first, cobbler of critics.

Originally Posted by tgwbs

Aganzir - Wild Man no understand why she vote so late. She present long before last-minute vote. Why late vote?

Because I didn't realise what time it was until 25 past. I was reading through the thread and trying to decide who to vote. Plus I always vote rather late if I'm around for deadline.

Originally Posted by tgwbs

Also, she should know not kill Nog day 1 for normal behaviour!

Nog behaves similarly enough when wolf so why should 'normal behaviour' make him innocent? I still think he was suspicious yesterday.

Originally Posted by Boro

May I ask Agan, did your involvement in your last game wear you down a bit?

I don't think so but school start certainly did. I'm a bit too tired to come up with anything original, and thus far I've only been able to be online a couple of hours when the day has started just to return two or three hours before deadline.

Originally Posted by Brinn on Mac

Probably the least suspicious of the Menel voters. His suspicions of him came from the beginning.

Yeah, in the beginning he said Menel was too careful. I didn't think so so I can't right away see where he was coming from. His own vote was rather easy.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Did you quts really think Noggie was the divo?

(I'm laughing at that Brinn qut)

Sorry Boro I won't duel you at least for now.

Originally Posted by Boro

And my question for you three is why did you snowball it?

Because I didn't like it. It looked like Nog was provoking Gwath to incriminate himself.

I don't like Gollum getting votes today. It's too easy.

See? I have this little to say.

Besides I have no idea who I will vote today.

Sorry I'm just so tired. I'll try to do something useful.

edit: xed with phantom

[Boromir88]

In these sorts of situations I generally take a blind shot at a submarine.~tp

Usually I would say that's playing it safe, and to win you can't footsy around, you have to go for the juggular. But this time I will agree, we have a couple more assets (and thus more people we don't want to lynch). Also, I remember the big downfall for the wolves in The Republic was the unexpected surprise in the lynching of a submarine - The Ka. That opened the door of you and I to make our moves.

So, in this set up, at this time, I say safe route is a good choice to go.

That should be a bit of comfort to those of you who fear Fea or Boro- if they aren't Critics then they'll be Night killed rather soon.

Come on tp, don't spill out all my plans! I have always been a good keeper of yours, or at least I hope I have.

*Note: By me saying this now lets see what the Critics will make of this little move. Walk in, I dare 'em.

[the guy who be short]

Wild Man say: if must lynch "submarine", better lynch Shasta than Gollum. As Wild Man say, kill Gollum seem foolish without reason other than "he absent".

[Aganzir]

Guilty
sally. No she isn't a top suspect, I'm just copying the names in the order they are on Mith's list. She's been playing rather conveniently and I want to go through her posts to form a proper opinion.
Fea. I'm wary of her. The questions concerning phantom and cobbler tgwbs quoted in #329 were something a critic Fea could say.
Mac. I'm not feeling very confident but he's my top suspect right now. I'm planning to go through his posts at some point.
tgwbs. Probably because I so often find that my opinion is the complete opposite to his. I wouldn't be surprised if either Fea or him was a wolf.

Innocent
Lari is leaning innocent. Her analysis was nice.
Brinn. I'm agreeing with her scarily much given how much I often disagree with her. Anyway she's the one I'm feeling the most comfortable with for the time being.
Boro is another one I'm feeling quite good about now.

Neither
Ilya. I don't understand her logic concerning Bowie and why he'd kill phantom, and I also can't see why she was less suspicious of him after knowing why he didn't vote. Why is not voting suspicious in the first place? Apart from that I don't know, except that she suspected me.
Kath is slipping under my radar.
Gwath. Hmm I think he's rather innocentish but right now I can't remember anything he has said, apart from he & Nog's quarrel yesterday.
Shasta is nowhere to be seen.
Bowie. I don't like to make any plans as for which baddie is more important to find first and therefore his concentrating on it yesterday seems odd to me. Apart from that there's quite little to go on.
Gollum is nowhere to be seen.
Cailineomer. Too little to go on.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Brinn

Also, you didn't exactly share what you thought of this "Saving Private Nogrod" act. Perhaps you stated your opinions elsewhere, but I'm not going to bother looking again through your posts at this hour.

A couple of persons were uncomfortable with lynching Nogrod and voted/retracted in order to save him. While a critic might do so to make himself look good henceforth, given that Nogrod was an ordo, I think trying to save him was an innocent affair. Too bad Menel had to suffer for it.

Originally Posted by Sally

Yes, and you're brilliant at it. Too brilliant, in fact, and from being your partner before I know just how dangerous you can be, little mister.

Originally Posted by tgwbs

However, Wild Man think unwise vote Gollum. Currently, suspicion of Gollum base on lack of input, which poor reason Day 2.

Wild man = Wise man.

[Mithalwen]

Fea darling. Cobbler is a SPY. Walter si not in a trance. Dead drop means he has no direct contact with critics. Of course he knows what he saw...

As for Soulmate.. I refer you to my previous statement ...

[Boromir88]

I would prefer Ilya, Gollum, or Cailin, over Strongbow, sally, or Shasta, as far as submarines.

I wouldn't call Kath, Lari or Gwath submarines, because a submarine implies not only quietness but suspicion. Kath, Lari, and Gwath I think we could continue to expect consistent participation, and I see no reason to believe them wolves.

Out of the ones I've listed above then. Like Kath and Gwath, I think we could expect the participation (how much of it they are able to give) from Strongbow, Shasta, and sally. I just don't have the innocent vibe from them, like I do from Kath and Gwath. More like an indifferent.

I think Ilya is more likely to be a wolf than the other two I mentioned in the first sentence. It's arguable as to whether she's really submarine though, because she's posted the most out of them, but she's a submarine in the sense that she's going rather unnoticed.

As helpful as her quoting has been, it scares me, because it reminds me of so much of Brinn's strategy in The Republic. She did admit that's what she thought when posting, but I'm still not convinced she's entirely innocent. Also, I'm scratching my head as to what she saw from me to suspect Mac. Maybe it was from yesterday? The "oh and what Boro said about you too" is just - well suspicious.

On the flip side, Ilya would probably be the riskiest choice, and that is she will be participating more so than the other submarines. But, her behavior today seems to fit more with a Cobbler who could be posting a bunch of stuff and really not say anything about it. Plus saying some things that really don't make sense. Or a critic who saw how successful Brinn was with this strategy and tried the same.

Cailin I'm not sure what to say, definitely a submarine, some questions, but not the most suspicious and really not all the suspicious. Just kind of hidden in the crowd.

Gollum would probably be the safest choice to go, also I have no idea what to expect as far as participation wise. This kind of approach I highly doubt would be a gifted, and I doubt would be a critics, we'd be probably be lynching an ordo, and playing it safe to avoid a disastrous decision.

Edit: crossed with everyone since last post

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Walter si not in a trance.

*imagines him walking like a zombie*

Hmm am I right in assuming that there's still 40 minutes till deadline? Only three people have voted thus far.

If I can't come up with good enough reasons to justify a vote for someone, I'm probably going to go with someone quiet. You can take it as a revenge for last game.

edit: xed with Boro

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Wild Man say: if must lynch "submarine", better lynch Shasta than Gollum. As Wild Man say, kill Gollum seem foolish without reason other than "he absent".

I agree. Unless Gollum goes Gil-absent, it seems silly to vote for him today. Particularly because there are others I find significantly more concerning.

Concerned

Boro
Ilya
Gwath

Leaning innocent

Lari
Brinn
sally
tgwbs
Mac

Need more to go on

phantom
Kath
Shasta
Bowie
Gollum
Cailineomer
Agan

I intend to vote for Gwath (due to his defensive behavior against all things, and due to the fact that there's nobody on my list I'd rather vote for).

I'm forgetting somebody on that list. Who am I forgetting?

[Lariren Shadow]

Sally: Has had suspicions thrown at her since Day 1. I’m entirely not sure where these are coming from. Seems innocent enough going through Day 1. Nothing much more and seems innocent enough.

Fea: When I started this list she hadn’t posted a lot, but then did. Is seriously good at playing this game and I'm not sure what to think about her. I'm beginning to suspect something about her though and leaning towards the guilty part.

Ilya: Has been very helpful in posting all of the comments about the voting. Leads me to suspect innocence. It just doesn't feel like something someone who was guilty would do.

Brinn: Has not given me anything to suspect. All of her votes have been clearly explained and well thought out.

Kath: Am pretty sure is innocent as well.

Agan: Has a voice of reason and picks up on things. I’m not sure what to think about her other than she’s good at the game. I don’t really think she is a critic but I wouldn’t be surprised if she was one.

Gwath: Can not get a real good reading on him. I think I'm leaning towards more innocent than anything else, but I'm going to keep my eye on him.

Shasta: Am still suspicious of from yesterday. I might take TGWBS's advice on the submarine vote, but actually leaning away from it. Shasta hasn't said anything today, while it could be a good critic ploy, from what I've heard and seen it doesn't feel like that.

Strongbow: Hasn’t said much today but justified lack of vote. But gives me suspicions because of this comment “it's easier to spot that dodgy, flighty behavior on Day 2 or even Day 3.” Going by that logic then we should be looking at him. Given the whole not showing up or posting thing. Am suspicious of him as well.

Mac: Said this “Mac: Yeesh... once I have to vote early and believe that you auditioners are smart enough to not do something terribly foolish, and then that.” It gives me the impression of something sinister. Singling himself out from the rest of us. It just rubs me the wrong. Add this with the whole Menel voting thing and it makes me sense a critic. I think I’m going to lean towards voting for Mac tonight.

Gollum: Hasn’t posted at all toDay. I’m not sure what’s going on with him. Brinn mentioned RL stuff so that would make sense but, well, still not here. There is a part of me that wants to be like Brinn and vote him off based on the whole no show thing. But its a very small part.

TGWBS: Should be kept for entertainment value. Plus I really see nothing that he's said that hasn't made sense or was sneaky.

Boro: Has been active and a voice of reason about looking at the votes. I'm not going to fall for his whole "the phantom gave my plan" thing because I don't think he's a wolf. Plus its too obvious for him to do that.

Cailin: Hasn’t said that much but at least did show up today. Seems innocent enough though. Showed up while making the list. Still seems innocent.

Guilty:
Shasta
Mac

Leaning towards up to something/possibly guilty:
Fea
Agan
Gollum

Leaning towards innocent:
Gwath
Ilya
Boro
Cailin

Innocent:
Sally
Brinn
Kath
TGWBS

Have no idea who's side he's on:
OG

Probably will be x-posted with everyone. Huh, I didn't.