Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[Kath]

Indeed happy birthday you two! Why don't we have a birthday wishes thread?

Today and tomorrow will be times of limited participation for me due to the lovely exams I have After that I only have one a day and should be able to get more involved.

[Firefoot]

Birthday wishes thirded.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

I LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry for disappearing everyone- life came around and reared it's ugly head. I'll definitely be in this game, if Cailin will still have me.
Again, I'm really sorry. I wasn't planning on being gone so long.

Nice to hear you are back! Unfortunately the game has just started...

Maybe we'll both get into the next Junior-game? I'd like to meet you at a level ground this time... I haven't forgotten your idea of us two being the wolves for once. We would probably reveal each other on Day1 and die consequently...

[Kath]

Psst! Out of game comment here but just in case anyones cares, the final narration from my game is now up. My apologies that it took so long to get up, exams and illness you know - bleurgh.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I will not be able to post in thelast 12 hours of Day 3, as I have to do some voulenter work, so that I may go to a festival for free. I only got this information yesterday.

I will be online in the start of the day and then again around 9 am. GMT

I am verry sorry about this.

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Runey

I have to do some voulenter work, so that I may go to a festival for free.

So, not really volunteer work then?

I'd like to apologise for my absence yesterday. NTL, my internet provider, broke down about about 5 hours before the deadline, when I traditionally come online. I did not get my internet connection back until 1.5 hours before the deadline, which was half an hour into Switzerland vs. South Korea, so, of course, there was no chance of my coming online.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

So, not really volunteer work then?

No; not really, but that is what they call it. . .

[Cailín]

Bonjour mes petites!

In celebration of my 21st birthday, I have a wannabe Spanish sangria BBQ bikini party tonight. By the time Day 3 starts, I will hopefully be too drunk to provide you with another brilliant narrative. I should be conscious enough to announce this Night's kill and start the Day, but the narration will have to wait till tomorrow.

Just so you know.

I will also take this opportunity to warn you that Day 3 may be extended just a little bit over the deadline, depending on the outcome of Portugal - Holland tomorrow. I could either be too depressed or too excited. It will not be more than half an hour, though, I assure you. Well, hopefully.

Au revoir!

[Findëasëa]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their birthday wishes, and to apologize for my lack of participation. My older sister came to visit for the weekend, and I have been very busy, I will probability not get back until just before the deadline.

[Cailín]

Today´s narration is now up.

I very much apologise for the delay in writing Jenny and Formy´s death scene. I´ve just been too busy / hazy to catch up. Hopefully, I will be able to do so tomorrow.

That's all, really.

[Cailín]

Ai, I am sorry people, the final narration is not yet done. Yes, I know, I am a terrible, neglectful moddess. In my defense: it's currently 50 degrees Celcius in my room (I measured it) and I want the ending to be as close to perfect as I can get it.

It will be up soon, I promise (and of course, the narration of Formendacil's and JennyHallu's death, who have every right to feel slighted and annoyed - though let it be known that it was not done to spite them).

Thanks for being so patient with me!

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Cailín

Ai, I am sorry people, the final narration is not yet done. Yes, I know, I am a terrible, neglectful moddess. In my defense: it's currently 50 degrees Celcius in my room (I measured it) and I want the ending to be as close to perfect as I can get it.

It will be up soon, I promise (and of course, the narration of Formendacil's and JennyHallu's death, who have every right to feel slighted and annoyed - though let it be known that it was not done to spite them).

Thanks for being so patient with me!

Hey, take as long as you need. I still need to do quite a bit of prep work before I'm ready anyway.

[JennyHallu]

Who is the next WW mod?

[Valier]

Up coming Mods

Gurthang
Sleepy Ranger
Anguirel
The Saucepan Man
littlemanpoet
Oddwen
mormegil
Durelin
Diamond

[Sleepy Ranger]

Gurthang sent me a PM and asked me if I could mod before him, I've told him I can though the game won't start till 15th. If everyone is fine with that then I'll be modding the next game otherwise Gurthang said he could probably manage to do it.

Regards,
Sleepy

[Anguirel]

I should probably point out that the way Fate has asserted herself, I am unlikely to be able to mod my second Heroes vs Wolves game for a Long Time. I therefore grant other Would-Be Mods free passage to leapfrog over me, with the proviso that, should I turn up Prodigal Son style in, say, September whining to be allowed to mod a game, you will be patient with me...

[Nogrod]

There seems to be a long enough que for me to join it...

So put me on the wanna-be mod-line too.

[Gurthang]

Yes, thank you Sleepy. I was thinking about what all my game would entail, and then it occured to me that I was going to be gone for the next two weekends. (not this coming one, but the next two.) I figured it'd be better to push it back so that I can actually be here. And I haven't done any of the preparing I really want to do.

So, yeah, I still do want to mod, and will plan on doing it right after Sleepy is done.

[Sleepy Ranger]

Righty-o, just in case you wanted to know you can now sign up for the next game which shall be known as... Tol-In-Gauroth XXIV: Battle Of The Band[wagon]s

Ahem, details and other yadda yadda shall be up eventually, probably tomorrow though since I'm kind of tired.

[Sleepy Ranger]

Props to the Panman for making that thread. I agree with him wholeheartedly and remember a while back when I tried to make a similar suggestion people were pretty quick to attack me which led to me pretty much giving up since the games were no fun anymore... but nevermind, now that its been made official hopefully it'll be taken into practice.

Also note, I have something a bit special/weird/new planned for my game but I need a sub-mod so if anybody is interested get in touch with me ASAP.

[Roa_Aoife]

Saucie's new rules beg a few questions.

What do we deem crossing the line? Where is the line? Does this mean we can't point out where things went wrong? Is all critical rhetoric banned, or only that which is designed to be insulting?

I am aware that many people misunderstand my attempts to be helpful as insult. I've always been of the view that if something doesn't go well, wether it is a game or anything else, then it is in everyone's best interest to figure why it didn't go so well. Are we not supposed to do that? Is the post discussion now going to be reserved for half-hearted compliments and rosy talk? Am I not supposed to say what I think? I've never insisted that my opinion is fact, but I do expect that if someone is going to disagree with me that they at least come up with a good reason why.

I'd also like to point out that many people who are so insulted over post-game discussion are the very ones who toss out "stupid," "foolish," and other such insults in game. So, it's okay to be rude and insulting during the game where everyone's trying to have fun, but after the game is over, we can't even say, "We didn't do well this game, and I think it was because...?" Am I to be banned from stating my opinion because some people have their panties in a bunch and can't handle it?

I thought the great thing about an online community is that we are free to state our opnion with in reasonable bounds. I had thought I did stay in bounds. In fact, I dare anyone to find me explicitly throwing an insult at someone. You won't. I have never called anyone here stupid because I don't believe it to be the case. Some people just have a tendency to over-react and read into what's being said when you really shouldn't.

In werewolf, when people over-react to an accusation, it's usually taken as a sign of guilt. It's basic psychology, really. Maybe those who are feeling so insulted that someone would dare insinuate that they didn't do so well have a guilty conscience.

EDIT: Before anyone starts freaking out and thinking that the thread will get closed for this, Saucepan Man told me to post my responses here. He thinks actually discussing the problem may help us find the best possible solution. What a novel concept.

[Sleepy Ranger]

I suggest we let the mod of that game decide. If the mod thinks its in limit then it is, if the mod thinks its getting out of hand it is.

[mormegil]

*sigh*

It's slightly upsetting to see so many people getting over heated. I think the point that is attempting to be made is that we all have different playing styles and all have been used effectively at one point or another. I've been in 20 something games and have seen quiet wolves win and vocal wolves claiming to be wolves win. I've seen quiet villagers end up being great seers and vocal seers being killed by their hunters and vocal seers making a great game. I've seen ordo's play the whole range and contribute in one game and not another. The point is that everybody contributes what they can when they can. I've personally used quietness during a game as a cause of suspicion, however I generally make it well known that I don't hold well with overly quiet villagers they are more than welcome to play and add a great dynamic to the game.

I think crossing the line is when we point fingers at particular people or styles for loosing the game. After so many games I'm tired of being known everytime for the same thing so I try different styles, some work and some don't, but I, or anybody else, should not be told that it cost us the game because of the way I played. We all try and we all succeed and fail at one point.

What do we deem crossing the line? Where is the line? Does this mean we can't point out where things went wrong?

Perfect example from the game in question would be Formendacil. Did he loose the ordo's the game? Heaven's no. He was killed the first night because he was forced to proclaim himself. It was a huge detriment to loose our seer the first night and certainly contributed to our loss but was it Formendacil's fault? NO! Was it the innocents fault? No, they found him legitimately suspicious and decided to lynch him. During game play I am very vocal and forward about things like this attempted lynching being silly but afterwards I don't think finger pointing is required or acceptable. Why was Formen almost lynched because he has choosen a playing style of hating DAY 1's and sticking to it. I've never held to that style myself and somethings I do bother Formendacil but we get along and don't critize each other. I think we could say something like "It was rather difficult to win after having lost our seer on night one and having only one known innocent to go on"

I've rambled a bit and I'm sorry but it was in haste and with the best intentions.

[Kath]

This is all a little disturbing, I think I've only ever seen an argument on this scale here once before, and it wasn't any fun then either.

Perhaps the issue is not so much what is being said but how it is being said. Though I wasn't involved in Valesse's game I did catch a little of the post-game discussion where all this started. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and to express it, that's freedom of speech and shouldn't be frowned upon. However, some people take easy offence, or take things very personally, and that should be kept in mind. Rather than trying to assess the game in terms of what went wrong and having a negative view, we could try to assess it in terms of how to improve the things that were detrimental to the game. So on the subject of quiet villagers, those with less time than others or those that play quietly as a tactic shouldn't be derided for it, but perhaps encouraged to post even if what they say isn't going to be 15 paragraphs.

Also, the issues depend on what side you're on. The wolves in a game with quiet villagers may be playing tactically, deliberately killing off the loudmouths in order to make the village easy to sway later.

I'm aware that this probably isn't making much sense. It's hard to put what seems so simple in the mind into words on a screen. The fact that we are engaged in conversation where we can't see the others face or hear the tone of voice causes problems, because things meant as simple comments can be taken as insults.

Perhaps general comments on the game could remain in the thread, but comments particular to a person could be kept to PM? It might lessen the tension a little.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Kath

Perhaps the issue is not so much what is being said but how it is being said.

Originally Posted by SPM

Secondly, it may be a language issue, but expressing disapproval of a particular playing style suggests that it is somehow "wrong" or "bad" on an objective basis. Fine if you subjectively dislike a particular playing style, just like Form dislikes Day 1s. We can all have different opinions about that. But there is no "approved" or "unapproved" playing style. All are fine, provided that the minimum commitment requirements are met.

I have expressed my frustration over my own linguistical shortcomings already earlier, but Spm's example seems to me a telling one. I really had no idea about these underlying meanings behind the word 'disapprove' - or that level of difference between disliking something.

So once again, sorry if I have offended someone, but as that example quite beautifully shows, it's more often than not unintentional from my part.

Still I don't think we (the ordos) played a good game back there in the last one, but that's another matter...

[Roa_Aoife]

I don't believe anyone started pointing fingers at particular people during the post game discussion. No one blamed Form speciffically for the loss, though some comments were made about him not helping himself very much.

I believe the village as a whole was accused of not playing well. To be certain, quiet players, though they bug me, aren't a huge problem normally. And I do respect the tactic if it can be pulled off well by a wolf. (I hold great respect for Naria's abilties, for example.) The problem that was expressed in this particular village was that everyone was quiet, not just the usually quiet people. This fact was expounded upon seperately by several different people. Most them only made a statement once before the other players started taking offense. Naturally, this caused backlash in the people trying to find a solution, and before long all sorts of insults were being thrown about, most of them actually coming from the other villagers, not the ones who supposedly started the whole thing.

It's quite simple really. Those people who keep saying that it's just a game and we shouldn't take it so seriously are the first ones to take comments out of hand and get insulted. If you really don't take it so seriously, then why get so offended?

How is a comment that, "The whole village was too quiet and we lost the game because of it," trying to dictate what people can and cannot do in a game when, "You're opinions are rude and you can't say them," isn't?

[Sleepy Ranger]

Uh... just a suggestion, might be a bit extreme but I believe it would get the job done. If anyone seems to start getting out of hand, despite warnings from the game mod, the BW should be notified and the member in question should be given a suspension ranging anywhere from a day to a week depending on how bad it was. It may sound harsh but it'll keep people in check.

[Roa_Aoife]

Uh... just a suggestion, might be a bit extreme but I believe it would get the job done. If anyone seems to start getting out of hand, despite warnings from the game mod, the BW should be notified and the member in question should be given a suspension ranging anywhere from a day to a week depending on how bad it was. It may sound harsh but it'll keep people in check.

Then no one will say anything because they're afraid of suspension. You can't just stop people from speaking their opinions. We (Americans, at least) fight wars over that sort of thing. It opens us up for personal politics and figurative witch hunts.

Not to mention, it only covers half the problem, (more than half, in my opinion) which excludes the people who take comments out of hand and get insulted far too easily.

[Sleepy Ranger]

Its not a direct suspension... they would be asked to tone down a bit first. I'm all for freedom of speech but there is such a thing as order as well. If we just let everyone run rampant it would lead to quite a mess. Theres times when even the people with the best of self-restraint lose a hold of themselves.

Flaming is against the rules and if anything (even if its in game) begins to come close to that I believe it should lead to a suspension regardless of whatever. However, what do I know? I haven't been following anything thats been happening for a while. What we have to identify is what is flaming and what is someone getting ahead of themselves. I am all for freedom of expression, as you should know by now Roa, though I do believe you shouldn't let it go to the point where you're at each others throats, someone has to intervene at that point.

I'm not saying that someone be suspended if they just begin arguing but only if they begin making direct insults or if they pass snide comments, something of that sort.

As for people who get insulted easily... well uh... therapy is all I can suggest. :/

[Roa_Aoife]

I see. I didn't understand fully the first time. Thank you for clarifying.

I still say it only covers half the problem, and it still opens us up for personal politics, but I understand what you're trying to say now. Perhaps we should hold off such extreme measures until we have some truly extreme situations, which I don't believe we have had yet.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Then no one will say anything because they're afraid of suspension. You can't just stop people from speaking their opinions. We (Americans, at least) fight wars over that sort of thing. It opens us up for personal politics and figurative witch hunts.

Not to mention, it only covers half the problem, (more than half, in my opinion) which excludes the people who take comments out of hand and get insulted far too easily.

To quote another forum, on which I'm a moderator, and on which we've had a similar problem...

You have no First Amendment rights here. There is no Constitution here other than what the Admins and Moderators say.

That said, I believe the major issue is not so much WHAT has been said, as HOW it has been said. Nogrod has admitted to being guilty of this, but I would say that it is not just him.

We have to remember that, this being an online forum, the only impression we can give people is through the words that we choose to use. People cannot get a feel for our looks, our tone, our intensity, or anything- just the bare words. As a result, the choice of words is far more important than it is face to face, since it is not corroborated with visuals.

With no offence intended by saying so, you, Roa, are one of the worse offenders here. You are supremely self-confidant, and highly opinionated. Your choice of words tends to come across as very high-handed. Whether or not you intend to insult people, the result seems in general to be that you get people's ire up. Your speeches tend to sound like you treat yourself and your way as best- the implication being that everyone else is worse and would do well to be the same as you.

And you seem to be blissfully unaware of the effect your words are having. They say "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me", but this is patently untrue, and "the pen is mightier than the sword" is a good deal more truthful. You come across, Roa, as completely unapologetic for any insult you may have caused- intended or not.

It's not what's being said, but HOW it's being said.

[Sleepy Ranger]

Well said, I agree with you quite whole-heartedly Formendacil. Roa does come across as offensive/hypocritical at times but then again I'm quite sure we all do since its quite easy to read things the wrong way as has been highlighted by Forme. Personally I don't think theres anyway to help the people who are offended easily, perhaps an apology would help settle things. Thats all that really can be done...

And why wait for the event till we take the precaution? Prevention is better than cure. If we place a rule in place now then it would avoid any unpleasentries we may have to go through in the future but anyway I just say we try not to let this discussion get out of hand. That would be mighty silly now, wouldn't it?

[Roa_Aoife]

I've apologized for insult caused in the past, Form, but I was met with scorn for it.

No matter how many times I have explicitly stated that I don't think my way is the only good way to play, and that I don't think of myself as better than anyone else, people still insist on taking my words the wrong way. Indeed, some people seem determined to find fault in everything I say.

I never intentionally insult people. I say what I mean, and nothing more than that. You want an apology? I'll apologize when I stop getting attacked everytime I open my mouth.

[Sleepy Ranger]

I wonder if I'll ever be able to begin setting up my game...

[Roa_Aoife]

No one's stopping you.

[Sleepy Ranger]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

No one's stopping you.

Not directly, it would probably get drowned in the impending debate on the subject of gameplay etiquette.

[Roa_Aoife]

Indeed, which is why I think we should have seperate thread for this. When Saucepan Man comes around, I really suggest that if he wants the discussion to continue, he move it else where.

I'm willing to bite my tongue until then if everyone else is.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

I dont want my style of speech dictated.

Careful, good members of the Barrow-Downs! You haven't forgotten that the Werewolf games take place in the context of this forum, have you? We have very clear rules about post content, and even if some of you come here only for the games, those rules still apply. This is not a democracy, it is a site owned by The Barrow-Wight; he has the sole right to make guidelines for posting. The Werewolf games are no exception to the forum rules. Personal insults and flaming are never acceptable.

[Mister Underhill]

What Esty said. We've never allowed the "I'm a straight-shooter!" gambit to excuse insulting, aggressive, or sarcastic posting.

Keep in mind that civil discussion is and always has been the rule here across the board, and that The Saucepan Man has been empowered by BD administration to enforce board policies, here in Mirth and elsewhere.

I personally don't think a separate thread is necessary -- SPM's sticky post is clear. If you are in doubt about a post, chances are you can dial it back some. Don't attack other posters; analyze issues. Don't make posts that drip with sarcasm or that are even obliquely insulting. Play nice. This stuff is Downs 101.

I'll leave it up to SPM to judge whether this issue requires its own thread or not. Just keep in mind that these policies are as old as the Downs itself.

[Roa_Aoife]

Just so we're clear, the purpose of that particular statement , Esty, was to point out the hypocracy being shown. Not about freedom of speech. I already made my point about that.

And I repeat- I brought my questions from my very first post, most of which have yet to be answered, to SPM privately first, and he told me to post them here for general discussion.

I understand forum rules- No Flaming, No Spamming, Be NIce, etc, etc, etc. When the day comes that a mod tells me I'm breaking a rule, I'll cease and disist. When someone says, "Roa, maybe I mis-read you, but you sound like your insulting me, so could you please not do that?" I'll apologize and try to correct whatever misunderstanding took place. (And if you don't believe me, it's happened before, though even then it was met with insult and attack.)

However, when people all but flame me and intentionally insult me for merely stating my opinion, and yet no one comments on it, I fail to see how they can claim "rules" on me.

The very purpose of this discussion is to determine wether the post game comments are breaking the rules or not, and what can be done to fix the high tensions that are forming. SPM has instituted some rules to help stem the problem, but he also encouraged discussion of those rules so that a true solution could be reached. A few attempts have been made, but as this will ultimately decide how werewolf will be played, I should think some more people might want to be involved.

I've stated my opinion. I've responded to others. In no place was I singling out a specific person. In no place did I flame or throw insult. In no place did I criticize someone for disagreeing with me. Rather, I'm being criticized because my opinion is unpopular. I'm sorry people don't like what I think, but I'm not sorry for thinking it.

Why can't I state my opinion without everyone jumping on me for it? Why does this seem to hold true for various other members with unpopular opinion? Why does Nogrod have to apologize for stating his opinion, and then have excuse his own behavior? Why was the message sent to newcomer Loki, "We don't like you, so you can't play?" Why was Mac, who stated the same opinion as Nogrod and myself, in about the same tone of voice, not attacked? Was Diamond, who was far more insulting, left alone because she took the popular opinion? And since when is sarcasm not allowed on the Down's? I can name at least ten highly ranked and well known members who use it in just about every post, and I can't think of a single member who hasn't used it at least once.

If anyone can answer these questions, I'd really like to know.