Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXIV – The Evil Breath of Morgoth in Dor-lómin, game thread

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by THE Ka

I started to sense it less as a trial and more just head butting over play styles. They both know how to put the pressure on and have a very direct approach. With that in mind as I’ve noted before, I’m not curious about those who’ve been the most direct. I’m wondering about those who’ve been on their sidelines during the debate. That’s an awfully safe shadow to nod along in…



Well, that wouldn’t be Kitanna late to that bandwagon…

I’ve re-read five of their posts since #36 and they’ve went from very iffy to consistent accusation against you, I’ll give them that at least.
What I’m more suspicious of, is those riding in their wake first with the Legate-G55-Pitch and now with G55-Rikae.

Between Brinn and Loslote, Brinn is playing far safer in their submarine by just throwing a ‘I have a hunch’ dart at Zil and following the G55-Rikae debate with mild defense of the Day 1 blues. That’s safe and yes, even villagers could take up that tactic, but this consistently? Hrrm.

I would have suspected Loslote for trying to play it too safe in the shadow of G55-Rikae with their comment about latching onto bandwagons and trying to cozy up to Rikae with a consistent criticism of G55’s arguments, but they do later begin to step out.



For all my suspicions, that’s a pretty valid point. One that began to make me doubt Loslote of obvious wolfish hiding.

On the flip side, G55 and Rikae have played pretty true to character, so it’s not odd at all for them to butt heads. If orchestrated for the sake of distraction as Kit suspects in post #95, it’s going rather well for whoever needs that cover.

Between the two, only Loslote has when come under fire participated in giving a reason why at least for their support for either side in either debate, while Brinn so far as I’ve caught up, has shied away consistently. It makes me all the more suspicious Brinn is playing it entirely too safe out of the two.

Oh, I quite like this post.

[Urwen]

++ G55

Because I am Morleg and I am spiteful.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

#78: Lommy approves of the fake-vote discussion for getting things rolling, and pins the credit on Legate - but also immediately rejects it as 'an insane idea' and wonders aloud why Legate would do it. These are within the very same sentence, which I guess is that "trademark flipflopping" at work (that phrase comes up in this same post).

Heyyyy guess what I'm gonna stop calling it flipflopping now and start calling it looking at both sides of issues. For instance:

Legate starts talking about Gal55's "fake vote" plan seriously*
Pros: gets the ball rolling, starts the actual debate toDay (as opposed to mere banter) - and for this it really doesn't matter WHAT the discussion is about
Cons: as it's a somewhat unrealistic suggestion and not a plan that would really work out and merit a closer look, it's not something we should be stuck debating

* I always read Gal's original suggestion (that was a no-lynch plan unlike Legate's) as tongue in cheek, and I was under the impression Gal confirmed this?

Okay hopefully that's the very last thing from me both about the nature of flip-flopping and on how the fake vote discussion started rolling, because it's high time to move on.

~*~

That being said, I also wanted to move on from G55 BUT how can you when she's stirring up new drama right in front of our eyes? The whole spat with Rikae seems a little off to me. Reminds me of what Greenie said about wolves being consistent with their suspicion instead of changing their opinion upon new developments - anyone who's too certain about anything on Day1 makes me raise eyebrows.

~*~

Lottie's few last posts seem very level-headed to me, so I feel a bit better about her.

Boro's defence of his playing style toDay? Fair enough, I think, but he's still on my suspicion list.

I might have a quick look at Rune and Kitanna's posts to try pinpoint why I feel vaguely suspicious of them. I mean with Kitanna it might be classic playing style clash (which I have with Lottie too and to an extent Brinn - I wanted to say her very benevolent reaction to suspicion towards her rubbed me the wrong way but I think she might be like that as innocent too; and now that I'm on the topic maybe Huinesoron would belong to this category too?) but I'm more curious why I got evil vibes from Rune because he's not someone I always suspect on Day1s.


edit: xed with Nog and onwards

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Of those with votes, I won't vote for Rikae, could vote for Brinn or Pitch, and probably won't be voting for G55 unless it's to save someone I think is innocent.

[Inziladun]

So. Many. posts.

Originally Posted by Loslote

I have a minute right now, so I'm gonna go ahead and talk through my impressions on Boro so far. Boro is a bold player, especially as a wolf, in my experience. I'm getting a strong "brewing potential" vibe from Boro so far today - a sense of "big, bold plays may be coming" - which could very easily go innocent or wolf, given his playing style. I keep feeling like there's no reason for me to make a judgement call either way until he starts making his moves. I don't necessarily suspect him right now, and I would not vote for him toDay, but I am definitely going to keep an eye on him.

Boro was creeping me out early on, but that feeling has somewhat lessened.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I highly doubt the pack would come out in force and steer the wheel only to keep one packmember from fenrisizing themselves. Chances are that one of them will bite the dust at some point, and then people will look at their old posts. Such Day1 behavior can sink the wolfship on a later day.

Conventional pack behavior might point to one or two loudmouths, one middle-of-the-road, and the rest under the radar.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

This is what I mean. I can feel a race between Pitch, G55, and Legate coming up, while the wolves are snickering in the background.

G55 has actually been my main candidate most of the Day. I'm still catching up, but it seemed Rikae spent a while suspecting her, then voted Brinn.
Then G55 votes Rikae What's up with that?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Do people like Mac without butter? Wait..maybe I'm confusing Mac for MaC (Macaroni and Cheese). Anyways, continue.

That is awesome.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I agree with this. I'm still a bit wary of G55 and Pitchwife (less so of the former), however I don't want to get caught in a trap. I think I will stay clear of this potential mess for toDay and focus elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Interesting.

Yes it is. What kind of "trap?

x/d with I=Don't-Know-How-Many

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Mac

This is odd. Some innocents have a habit of seeing wolves behind every accusation against them, which isn't helpful either, but usually people at least look closely and make their judgement - not because they're afraid of getting lynched necessarily, but to hunt for wolves. This comment only mentions self preservation.
Some wolves do it this way, as to not draw the village's attention to any suspicions.

This is a fair point. I've done that as a wolf in past games - that is, ignored other people's suspicions of myself in order not to draw any more attention to them.

I'm not sure I can stay awake until DL but Mac's post just made me rethink everything to the extent that my brain hurts. I still think Brinn looks sketchy, and I agree with Mac's points about her, but at the same time Mac's post about her makes me really uneasy. (Flip-flopping? Goes in the family, I'm afraid.) He literally starts with "I don't know who to vote for", then makes a reasonable argument against Brinn (quoted above), then quotes another bit from Brinn saying he wished he had noticed this earlier as her wording is "wolfie". This is literally like a wolf thought process written out in one post. I need someone to suspect -> come up with an argument against someone -> find "wolfie" things in that person's previous posts. The only other people he mentions in this post are ones he is okay with. So if the only one he voices suspicion of is Brinn, how come he "doesn't know who to vote for"?


EDIT: x-ed since aforementioned post by Mac

[Shastanis Althreduin]

It occurs to me that by hijacking Greenie's post I failed to give a read on Greenie herself - there were things I liked (the Brinniel read) and things I didn't (the Rune/Kitanna discrepancy, which may be an overblown title but it sounds fancy so I'll probably keep using it; the reads on Ka/Eonwe/Inzil/etc) - she's not a direction I'm interested in going today, at least.

[Loslote]

Right now, I want to vote for G55 or maybe Pitch. Most of my suspicion about Pitch is based on his soft defense/attack/defense (I think that's the right order) of G55, so I think lynching either one would help me better understand the other. I would be willing to vote for Brinn if it came down to her or someone I have a really good feeling about. I will not be voting for Rikae or Lhuna.

[Brinniel]

Just reread Kitanna's posts again; there's only four and it was the last two that have me concerned. She tries really hard to build a case on the Pitch/Legate/G55 trio and that what I found fishy.

And as for the suspicions against me? As I said I'm not too worried about general wariness, as we all do suspect one another at some point. However since I know I'm innocent, I will be watchful anyone who is trying to build on a case against me.

I would lean towards voting Kit, but seeing that my name is in the tally, I shall wait in case there's the need to save myself.

[Pitchwife]

You know what, just because I can hang around till DL doesn't mean I have to wait.

++Brinniel


Picked suspects from Rikae's shortlist, then backed off when attention turned away from the LPG triangle, and when she got suspected for this she tried to shift the suspicion to Kitanna, who had been more or less in the same camp.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

This is a fair point. I've done that as a wolf in past games - that is, ignored other people's suspicions of myself in order not to draw any more attention to them.

I'm not sure I can stay awake until DL but Mac's post just made me rethink everything to the extent that my brain hurts. I still think Brinn looks sketchy, and I agree with Mac's points about her, but at the same time Mac's post about her makes me really uneasy. (Flip-flopping? Goes in the family, I'm afraid.) He literally starts with "I don't know who to vote for", then makes a reasonable argument against Brinn (quoted above), then quotes another bit from Brinn saying he wished he had noticed this earlier as her wording is "wolfie". This is literally like a wolf thought process written out in one post. I need someone to suspect -> come up with an argument against someone -> find "wolfie" things in that person's previous posts. The only other people he mentions in this post are ones he is okay with. So if the only one he voices suspicion of is Brinn, how come he "doesn't know who to vote for"?


EDIT: x-ed since aforementioned post by Mac

Bother. I like this post and wish I didn't... kinda. There's several people pushing Brinniel as a vote today - this is the first semi-push-back that I've seen, and given Greenie "still thinks Brinn looks sketchy" it adds another layer of pigeonhole-scenario I'm unwilling to lock myself into but will consider later depending on what we learn.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

I'm not sure I can stay awake until DL but Mac's post just made me rethink everything to the extent that my brain hurts. I still think Brinn looks sketchy, and I agree with Mac's points about her, but at the same time Mac's post about her makes me really uneasy. (Flip-flopping? Goes in the family, I'm afraid.) He literally starts with "I don't know who to vote for", then makes a reasonable argument against Brinn (quoted above), then quotes another bit from Brinn saying he wished he had noticed this earlier as her wording is "wolfie". This is literally like a wolf thought process written out in one post. I need someone to suspect -> come up with an argument against someone -> find "wolfie" things in that person's previous posts. The only other people he mentions in this post are ones he is okay with. So if the only one he voices suspicion of is Brinn, how come he "doesn't know who to vote for"?

This is a good point. I didn't have a sketchy read on him earlier, but I see what you mean about the wolf thought process. Something to keep in mind, especially if we find out Brinn's role.

xed with Shasta

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Boro

The one thing I was most certain of agreeing with today was Pitch's comment that there was a difference in that LGP group between Legate's "enthusiasm" in jumping on G55's question to stir conversation. If I'm reading correctly now. Did Pitch sort of back away from suspecting G55, to defending G55, and back track again? I'm going back through those interactions, because if true, that does ping more to my fight senses than anything else today.

A difference between Legate's enthusiasm and what? Not quite sure what you're trying to say there.


Votes as I go:
Lhuna --> Lhuna - I mean, what is there to say really? It's a thing. I'm ok with being a thing toDay, but not anything past that.

Rikae --> Brinn - seems to be largely down to the wanting to avoid a trap comment. Other people have mentioned wanting to steer clear of the Legate-Pitch-G55 triangle, but even that seems to have died down as the Day has gone on and more people have appeared. Perhaps it's the 'avoid a trap' wording rather than the sentiment itself?

G55 --> Rikae - quite a big fight seems to have blown up between these two. I looked at post 69 and couldn't really see anything in it. Yes, Rikae somewhat exaggerated events but it was early in the Day and to me read as typical banter. I don't think there was this element of deliberate misrepresentation that G55 feels is going on. I don't know if G55 has played with Rikae before and it's an unfamiliarity with playing style thing, or a great way for a wolf-G55 to have a pretty logical reason to vote an innocent-Rikae.

Originally Posted by G55

It's not a WW game without me and Rikae getting into a flame war, isn't it?

Ah, well that puts paid to that idea!

Seriously, can someone tell me how I quote within quote. Otherwise you're going to keep getting things like this:

Originally Posted by Hui

#95: Kitanna discusses a Galadriwolf or PitchWolf, but interestingly doesn't suggest a pack. She does seem to suggest G55 and Rikae as a pack with this:

Originally Posted by Kitanna

*side eyes both [G55 & Rikae]* Orchestrated wolf action? I suppose not likely, but the more I read of G55 the more I raise my eyebrows.

I think the quote from Kitanna actually says she doesn't think G55 and Rikae are working together, not suggesting they are a pack at all.

Originally Posted by Greenie

The only thing I was wary of was her argument that there is likely to be a wolf in the Pitch-Gal-Legate -trio - as others have pointed out, there's no basis for this really but it would be a very convenient idea for a wolf to advocate.

This is also about Kitanna. Greenie was talking about her lacking consistency, but actually she's been pretty consistent about suspecting G55 across both the major arguments of the Day.

G55 ... earlier in the Day it was felt by some that she'd backed away from the 'fake-votes' in favour of leaving that to Legate, and was garnering a bit of suspicion or at least wary eyes as a result. She then leaps headfirst into a ding dong with Rikae and a few have now mentioned this makes her look innocent. I don't know that I'm going anywhere with this as it feels like it would be way too hard to make that a calculated thing.

Oh and Boro --> Pitch - supposed deliberate flip flopping between Legate and G55.

Urwen --> G55 - 'because I am Morleg and I am spiteful'. That's either a horrible reason for a vote or some reference I'm not understanding. Had Urwen shown any suspicion toward G55 before this? I don't really even recall Urwen posting until now.

Pitch --> Brinn - for using the same suspects as Rikae and then switching to Kitanna when she was suspected for this.

I'm posting this now but no doubt I'll have crossed by the time it gets there!

[satansaloser2005]

Here and trying to catch up.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Here and trying to catch up.

Better than trying to mustard, I suppose.

[satansaloser2005]

Quickly for Kath.

[QUOTE ]Original post here.[QUOTE ]Posting OP is quoting here.[/QUOTE ][/QUOTE ]


x'd with Shasta. Missed you too, babe.

[Huinesoron]

So are we up to six votes on 4 people, with G55 and Brinn having 2 each? I still stand by my Lommy not-vote, but I can't help feeling the Brinn-wagon came up very suddenly. I suspect a deeper analysis will turn up a wolf (or two?) in there, but this close to deadline (and back on my phone) it's not possible.

... and now Pitch has voted for Brinn. So unless it looks like anyone else is voting Lommy, I will - probably in about 15 minutes - vote for Pitch (preferably) or G55 (if necessary), because I'm suspicious of both and don't trust the Brinn-wagon.

(Kath, re Urwen: she and G55 had a falling out in the Password game lately, so that might be why. The Morleg/Maeglin/Maeglin thing is just how Urwen talks. Not to say she can't be leaning into it, though.)

hS

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Greenie

He literally starts with "I don't know who to vote for", then makes a reasonable argument against Brinn (quoted above), then quotes another bit from Brinn saying he wished he had noticed this earlier as her wording is "wolfie". This is literally like a wolf thought process written out in one post.

Actually I only noticed it mid-post, wrote my piece about it, and then didn't bother to change the beginning of my post.

[Kath]

Thanks sally! I'll try it out.

Urwen - two posts. One: checking in and some odd RP thing about Maeglin. Two: voting for G55 'because I am Morleg and I am spiteful'.

Seriously, am I not getting something here?

[Kitanna]

I'm not going to lie, I cannot keep up today. I've been skimming, but in depth analysis is simply not going to happen before DL. Well at least not every post since my last one. Instead, I wanted to use the time I have to focus on people who seem to be popping up all over the place. This includes Brinn who didn't seem like she said much, but certainly was talked about a lot. Rikae and G55 because what was going on there? I'm going to start here hopefully move on to more. Fingers crossed I get something productive done before DL.

Brinn didn't say much in her first post. And really what stood out more was a joke post about her later "don't trust Greeks bearing gifts that G55 said. Which was just a joke post.
The only thing of even remote substance from Brinn's first post is

Originally Posted by Brinn

No, no, no, no, and no. The fact that this was ever brought up in a previous game seems insane! While there is always a risk of lynching an innocent, the Day is best shot at getting a wolf. If we don't lynch anyone they likely have one up on us by the following Day.

In response to G55's "cue discussion about a no-vote Day1!" comment. She comments seriously on something I read as another joke from G55. Nothing really nefarious to my eyes here.
Her next post is responding to a quarantine joke/banter post from Boro. In the same post she goes on about how planning just makes potential fodder for the next day.

Originally Posted by Brinn

True, true. Things never do seem to go according to plan around here. And then the ones who don't follow the plan become lynch fodder the next Day and more often than not turn out to be innocent.

Again, nothing really here. Maybe a wolf playing it safe and just sort of nodding and saying "yes, yes, this is true" while blowing smoke rings from her pipe. But really, after two posts, this doesn't scream "baddie."
Her next post is more of the same, agreeing with Mac on the discussion of deadline before deadline for a fake vote. And a question about quarantine.
The next post has more substance as far as establishing a trail of activity and not more "yes, yes, quite indeed" comments in response to others.

Originally Posted by Brinn

On Legate's post's about the fake votes...
Is it suspicious? Perhaps, but not necessarily. If he's evil, he's being rather bold, and if he's innocent, a wolf could use his posts to build a case against him. Then again, there could be no wolves involved and they are just quietly letting this play out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe there's only five remaining players who have not yet posted - which means odds are that there's at least 2-3 baddies hiding among the current posts. The problem I have with Day 1 is that without a track record from a previous Day, I tend see more people as innocent than guilty. Which I guess makes sense; after all, most of us are in fact innocent.

So, let's try this backwards...

So far I find Lommy to be the most genuine. She's only posted a few times early on, however, I do find her to be sensible and am agreeing with what she has to say.

THE Ka also seems level-headed to me and I'm leaning towards innocentish.

As for the other side of the scale, it's still too early for me to feel any strong suspicions, but based on hunch and posts I've seen, I am slightly more wary of: Inzil, Pitchwife, G55

Now time for sleep...it is far too late!

She sets up a scenario of a bold wolfLegate but also an innocent Legate having a case built against him. Reasonable, but she doesn't mention G55 or Pitch in this, which were the two most actively engaging about the fake vote. Legate didn't suggest the idea, though he ran with it, and I find it interesting Brinn didn't take into account the other major players when the drama first unfolded.
The next post is a mention of past experience, which eh. Nothing much there.

I think this next posts is where people started to question Brinn more.

Originally Posted by Brinn

I agree with this. I'm still a bit wary of G55 and Pitchwife (less so of the former), however I don't want to get caught in a trap. I think I will stay clear of this potential mess for toDay and focus elsewhere.

In her post about Legate she didn't mention anyone else by name in regards to the fake vote. Here she says still wary of G55 and Pitch which unless I missed something, she hadn't actually mentioned them at all prior. Not long after this Rikae says she would likely vote for Brinn if DL was right then.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Between the three of you that have been brought up, I found Pitchwife's posts to be most suspicious. However, I'm second-guessing myself because I'm starting to think he may just be easy cannon fodder for the wolves. I don't find Legate suspicious and reading your posts today, I'm less wary of you.

I honestly do not have time for full summary posts because I do actually have to work as I mentioned before. If I were to pick someone right now, I would say Inzil. I can't quite put my fingers on it, but I'd say it's mostly because he's one of the most frequent posters, yet I find him providing less of substance and just going with the flow. Easy way for a wolf to hide.

If I do have time I may take a look at those building a case against Pitchwife.

This looks suspicious to me. She never once mentioned Inzil and now he's her top suspect. But this all reads too clumsy for Brinn, to obviously trying to look guilty, almost. I'd say she's more likely a cobbler than a wolf at this point in the postings.
Rikae votes for Brinn some posts later.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Okay, took a quick look back at some posts. Regarding the whole Legate/G55/Pitchwife bit, I find Kitanna's reactions most suspicious. She seems quick to point out that there is likely a wolf among the group.

Despite the fact she also ran with these suspicious and focused in on Legate, pot have you met my good friend, kettle?
Next post she's unconcerned with suspicions coming her way. Though she does view Rikae and G55's back and forth as likely two innocents than anything else.
Pitch also votes for Brinn
But Brinn hasn't been back. If she's a wolf, then she is a bold one indeed who is trying to pull off a gamble with her erratic posting/suspicions. I think if she's not just plain innocent, she's the cobbler. She doesn't cast herself in a good light and she does seem pressed for time, but as I said earlier in this post, she reads more clumsy than wolf. Brinn knows she's short on time based on her quotes that she does have work. So wolfBrinn could easily just float under the radar. Plenty of other people were making noise when she started to say things that were off. Honestly, Pitch looks more guilty to be for his vote than Brinn.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I am a bit torn here.

My original suspects/bad vibe folks were Kitanna and Eonwe, but I haven't really found anything to add to my original suspicions.

I must acknowledge that decent case can be made against Brinniel, though she did not at first register on my radar.

She mentions a group of vague suspect, but gives us nothing concrete. Thus giving her self room to maneuver. Initially she sticks to some of her suspects, again she doesn't give us too much to go on, and then she throws Kitanna into the mix.

On top of this she seemingly tried to downplay suspicions by simply not addressing them, something wolves have tried in the past.

Posts:#70 #158 #168.

I mean this definitely look like an infected trying to avoid scrutiny, backtracking when she fears her strategy is found out, and attempts to ignore the direct accusations hoping they will go away.

Despite all of this, I am not convinced that it isn't just innocent Brinniel who wants to be helpful, but is vague as she does not want to "fabricate" evidence and then gets swayed buy what she perceives as good arguments/unfortunate developments.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I recall getting good vibes from reading what Legate had to say last night, in terms of me agreeing with him. Not sure about the framing aspect, I probably need context for that.

"Last night"? Am I missing something?

I see Urwen has jumped in out of nowhere to vote for G55. Would a wolf really be so careless?

x/d with last four

[Nogrod]

Same with the stuff showing...

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Quickly for Kath.

x'd with Shasta. Missed you too, babe.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

... and now Pitch has voted for Brinn. So unless it looks like anyone else is voting Lommy, I will - probably in about 15 minutes - vote for Pitch (preferably) or G55 (if necessary), because I'm suspicious of both and don't trust the Brinn-wagon.

I would much rather vote for G55 or Pitch over Brinn. Let's try not to split the vote between them, though - I suspect they are both wolves, so I don't especially mind which one gets lynched, as I think either one will tell us a lot about the other.

[Pitchwife]

Shasta re Eönwë/Greenie being Agreeable : That was supposed to be the beginning of a list of people I haven't been able to get an idea of yet (and yes, Greenie is in that category too, as is Zil, and Lhuna, and Lommy and Lalaith and I'm sure a few others), but there was too much going on to catch up on so I gave up and just put that out there.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Remark on the beginning:

Originally Posted by Brinniel

It's Day 1, so people are bound to throw suspicion in the wrong direction, so no I'm not worried if some people are wary of me.

Someone mentioned that a Wolf wouldn't say this... in my experience, quite the contrary.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

You sure are going for the last hour vote.

And what did you think, O sweet summer child?

Anyways... here goes my final list for the Day, categories reflecting overall impressions for the Day as of this moment:

Red Zone

Kitanna - I have listed it above. Upon re-read, I sense the danger of having focussed too much on it to the point of solidifying my suspicion for myself, but the points stand.

Eönwë - behaves reasonably to the point of it raising my alarm bells. I mean, he tends to be that way, but he actually looks almost too careful, as if deliberately making sure he remains under the radar while looking nice and sensible and active. Him, Greenie and Huinesoron could be (three fifths of) a very well-doing pack of "nice folks". And this is not just a throwaway remark, I will be actually keeping an eye on them.

Greenie - so see above. In her case, "red zone" simply means that I will be keeping an eye on her very, very closely, because no way I am letting a seemingly-innocent Greenwolf running free.

Huinesoron - also see above. I have generally a very good, very "informative" feeling from all the posts, but there is the "just right amount" of measured suspicion-and-distance to make it seem a possibly calculated thing.

Orange Zone

Boro - his lists interlaced sometimes with irrelevant banter and the generic pouring his heart out about why he is not going into confrontation seem a little like Boro, but not entirely. The time gap since the last game may be the reason, but I am still keeping an eye on him.

Lalaith - the few posts from her did not really convince me.

Brinniel - I still don't know. Basically after I voiced some uncertainties about her, she started behaving more, humm hmm, innocentishly. There are people who alarm me more, but still, Brinn behaves a lot like a Brinnwolf would. I guess I might wait to see more posts from her.

Urwen - I would like to see some more posts, please? The vote without reasoning certainly did not help. I don't need a massive essay, but a couple of posts regarding... anything in the village would help.

Lhuna - well, that single vote was... I am leaning to think it does not actually mean anything and it should be ignored. Doesn't like Day 1s, and would have done so whether Wolf or innocent, case closed. Her posting otherwise raised some eyebrows, but not in excessive way. Bears watching. *insert a picture of a grizzly peeking from a bush*

Yellow Zone

Macalaure - ever since he became more involved, I've started feeling better about him. He posts reasonably, question being whether he's just being clever (he would) or whether that's genuine. Currently leaning more towards genuine.

THE Ka - hmmnmn. I find the analyses she posts rather convincing and of course it may be we have a clever Wolf here, but contrary to the three folks in my red zone, I am not getting any vibes of "this looks like a carefully written argument that keeps me out of fire but adds fuel to one of the ongoing fires".

Inziladun - HAS MANAGED TO SLIP UNDER MY RADAR! Which by itself should be enough to send him plummeting right down to red zone. What happened to our Zil? But seriously. I have no read on his behaviour. Creepy. But obviously no reason to suspect him then, either.

Pitchwife - meh. A little pot of chaos, that one is, but I am reserving my judgment until I see more. Most of his toDay's actions got lost in the useless threesome.

Sally - pretty much also under the radar. Leaning good.

Lommy - I seriously can't tell because I am absolutely at loss at some of her thoughts, but the overall impression is - not suspicious.

G55 - I was actually beginning to get suspicious of her but then the whole Rikae argument broke out. If nothing else, it seems 99% likely to me that it is not a Wolf-on-Wolf, or at least not orchestrated beforehand (and I somehow find it unlikely to erupt into such scale if it's not orchestrated). Could be a Cobbler easily.

Loslote - I am not sure, but from the little I can gather, nothing that would scream Wolf, at least.

Green Zone

Kant - I mean, Kath - she is also helpful and "transparent", I would say, and seems genuinely so. I'm ok with her thus far.

Marx - I mean, Rune - is to the point, and I sense no falsehood in his tone. Okay now.

Rikae - I honestly have zero idea about what the entire G55 business was about, but overall I am having no particularly worryworthy vibes from Rikae.

Shasta - is being systematic and feels genuine. So far okay.

Will look at what's going about and then vote, hopefully...

EDIT: x-ed with a whole bunch of posts after Lommy

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

(Kath, re Urwen: she and G55 had a falling out in the Password game lately, so that might be why. The Morleg/Maeglin/Maeglin thing is just how Urwen talks. Not to say she can't be leaning into it, though.)

Ok. Highly unsound, and if that truly was the only reason for the vote, I disapprove.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I would much rather vote for G55 or Pitch over Brinn. Let's try not to split the vote between them, though - I suspect they are both wolves, so I don't especially mind which one gets lynched, as I think either one will tell us a lot about the other.

I don't like the feel of the Brinnwagon. I'm always suspicious of sudden bandwagons.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

"Last night"? Am I missing something?

I see Urwen has jumped in out of nowhere to vote for G55. Would a wolf really be so careless?

x/d with last four

It is currently 3:24 PM for me - I played a little bit "last night", 10 or 11 pm or so.

[Loslote]

The more I think about it, the more I like Greenie's post about Mac's suspicion of Brinn. I don't think we have enough time to properly consider it and seriously vote for Mac toDay, but I definitely want to come back to it toMorrow.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

"Last night"? Am I missing something?

On second thought, maybe Shasta meant "last night" while reading the thread. That jumped out at me, though.

x/d with Shasta and Lottie

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

So are we up to six votes on 4 people, with G55 and Brinn having 2 each?

Day1 - votes
Lhuna -> Lhuna
Rikae -> Brinniel
G55 -> Rikae
Boro -> Pitchwife
Urwen -> G55
Pitchwife -> Brinniel 2

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Shasta re Eönwë/Greenie being Agreeable : That was supposed to be the beginning of a list of people I haven't been able to get an idea of yet (and yes, Greenie is in that category too, as is Zil, and Lhuna, and Lommy and Lalaith and I'm sure a few others), but there was too much going on to catch up on so I gave up and just put that out there.

This isn't not plausible, for the record, but I don't think I buy it wholesale - that wasn't the feeling I got from the comment you made and I'm not sure I agree with Inzil being in that group, either.

Requires more thought.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Kath

A difference between Legate's enthusiasm and what? Not quite sure what you're trying to say there.

Disagreed with his original take here (Post 37):

OK, Legate, let me ask you: What exactly do we have to gain from the kind of fake vote you're suggesting?
If it is just that, a fake vote with no real lynch as per G55, we've effectively wasted a day, nobody has to fear the consequences of their vote because without a lynch, we won't know whether they voted for an innoent or a wolf, and the wolves can go wolf-on-wolf to their hearts' content witrh no danger to any of them.
If it's just that people announce beforehand whom they are planning to vote, and the vote takes place later, and we compare what people said before to how they actually voted, how is this different from what we usually do?
This strikes me as a pseudo-useful suggestion/discussion. *ping*

Agreed with Pitch's assessment here (Post 98):

Why did I pressure Legate rather than G55 re the fake votes? The difference between

1) G55 throwing out an idea to stir up a discussion, and

2) Legate picking it up and going "Oh yes that's a good idea let's totally do that!", when I thought it was a) not helpful and b) needlessly overcomplicating things. But my last note on him, on his reply to G55 in #44, was 'actually sensible?'

Which I read as "ok, this makes more sense because I agree there is a difference between 1 and 2."

Then goes back and forth on G55 afterwards. His reasons for this flip-flopping were unrelated to Legate. But for (Post 163)

G55 is all over the place, fairly confrontational, sometimes eyebrow-raising (about Urwen/Maeglin: really?). Her all-out attack on Rikae just now does sound a lot like passionate innocent though and makes me feel better about her.
Paradoxically, so does Rikae's response so far.

My read on it came to the conclusion that he was early on trying to play both sides between Legate and G55. Which I can't understand a reason for since post #98 made a lot of sense.

Edit: crossed with everyone since Kath's #213

[Thinlómien]

Kitanna
#36: Mostly banter. Agrees with me that the deadline hours will be chaotic, but seems to find the idea fun. Disagrees with me, saying that it's quite possible for someone to get suspected/lynched based on early Day1 banter.
#85: Says either Legate's fake vote plan, or Pitch suspecting Legate, could be "innocent villagers stirring up conversation to draw out baddies. Or it could be baddies trying to draw in innocents to pin as guilty later." Ehhhhhhhh?? Mildly suspects Lhuna for underlining her own unhelpfulness. Discusses the merits of lists with Legate. Gets really worked up about the lists and fake votes to a degree that I find confusing while I'm quickly trying to summarise her posts here. Says fake voting would benefit wolves because it easily incriminates innocents who are trying their best? Draws attention to Shasta's self-ironic "That's probably enough content to make it look like I'm participating."
#95: Wonders if Rikae/Gal is orchestrated wolf-on-wolf, more suspicious G than R. Analyses the fake vote discussion, bringing up G55, Legate and Pitch as the key players, and seems to think their order of suspiciousness is Pitch > Gal > Legate.
#104: Suspects Boro because of his flip-flopping about lists and appearing deeper than he is. Mildly defends Legate against Mac's accusation, but does a legate180 because Legate's post #88 strikes her as fish, mostly tone-wise.

Conclusion: Now that I've read her posts, I feel better about Kitanna. I disagree with her conclusions a lot, but her thought processes seem like an innocent person figuring things out.


*

Rune

#84: Mostly disclaimers/banter about the game, most important quote is this: "For now let me just say that I am pro anything that leaves more data for us to analyse, so in principle I am not against making preliminary votes a thing. As long as we don't take a dogmatic approach that would leave the system open for wolfish exploitation (but that goes for pretty much everything)." Which sounds a little weird to me, like how would the wolves exploit the fake votes?
#94: Agrees with Hui about stating voting preferences early and that the voting environment will change just before dl. Okay, elaborates on the thing I just found weird by saying that we shouldn't get too fixated on the idea of everyone pre-voting and then punish those who deviate. Fair enough, agreed.
#117: Most worried about G55 who gives him both good and bad vibes. Says he always suspects Eönwë and Lottie, and never suspects Lhuna. Thinks Legate and Pitchwife are reasonable and therefore innocent.
#134: Suspects Eönwë for flipflopping on Legate and Kitanna for the opportunistic jump on Lhuna's post. About the village in general: "For now let me just say that I am pro anything that leaves more data for us to analyse, so in principle I am not against making preliminary votes a thing. As long as we don't take a dogmatic approach that would leave the system open for wolfish exploitation (but that goes for pretty much everything)."
#140: Defends Lhuna bc of her having a history of suicidal tendencies. Thinks Urwen made a cobbler hint.
#157: Doesn't entirely buy G55 discrediting his Urwen/cobbler theory.
#179: Asks Lottie about her reasoning for suspecting Brinn because doesn't suspect her himself.
#186: Continues on the topic, correcting Lottie about Brinn's suspicions. I'm too busy to check which one of them has the facts right, but I doubt either of them is lying about this on purpose.

Conclusion: Guess what? He also looks innocent on a closer look. Nothing really stands out as super shady.

Not sure this was a good use for the second to last 30 minutes of the Day, but at least I know two people I'm not voting for unless something drastic happens.

Will be crossing with everyone since my last!

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

In her post about Legate she didn't mention anyone else by name in regards to the fake vote. Here she says still wary of G55 and Pitch which unless I missed something, she hadn't actually mentioned them at all prior. Not long after this Rikae says she would likely vote for Brinn if DL was right then.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

This looks suspicious to me. She never once mentioned Inzil and now he's her top suspect. But this all reads too clumsy for Brinn, to obviously trying to look guilty, almost. I'd say she's more likely a cobbler than a wolf at this point in the postings.

Clearly you did miss something because I mentioned in my post last night that I was wary of Inzil, G55, Pitchwife.
Inzil is on the list because it feels like he's trying to be helpful without providing a lot of substance. After a night's rest and thinking it over, I felt better about G55's posts, especially after the exchange with Rikae. Still suspicious of Pitchwife, but I'm also aware if innocent, he could make good cannon fodder, hence my suspicion of you.

X-Posting with a bunch of posts I'm sure..

[Kath]

I'm struggling, because even though I feel like I talked myself out of it in the previous post, I am still suspicious of G55.

I didn't like early on that she was happy to slide all the 'responsibility' for the fake votes thing over to Legate. You can say he took a joking remark beyond her original intention but as I noted before it was actually her who brought it back up again.

And having backed away, the affray with Rikae is a great way to get involved in something without actually really having anything to say. It's all about what did that word really mean rather than much else. So it seems like she's been involved in a lot but hasn't really.

But what I'm REALLY struggling with is that I'm now following Urwen's vote, which I'm strongly irritated by on principle.

However, I have to vote now as I'm needed elsewhere, so for the reasons above:

++G55

I've crossed with everything since post 221 here.

[A Little Green]

Just quickly -

Originally Posted by Mac

Actually I only noticed it mid-post, wrote my piece about it, and then didn't bother to change the beginning of my post.

This is fair enough (we all notice things mid-post and add them on) but doesn't change the fact that the Brinn-suspicion in that post seems awfully convenient.

Originally Posted by Shasta

I don't know if I agree that opportunism this early makes sense; I also tend to think, based on Greenie's read of the situation, that Rune ought to look just as opportunistic, but doesn't for some reason? Why's that, Greenie?

Also a fair point, actually! As far as I can remember, Kitanna suspected Lhuna based on a noncommittal post very early on, a bit more strongly than was indicated by how early in the game it was. Rune pointing out that this looks opportunistic seemed like a valid enough point to me.


EDIT: x-ed since Shasta's #229

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'm jerking the reins here a bit.

++Pitchwife

[Kitanna]

Probably not going to get to Rikae before I need to vote, so I'm going to look at G55 since I already suspected her.

Originally Posted by G55

Aaaaand cue discussion about a no-vote Day 1!

You're a monster for suggesting it. :P

Originally Posted by G55

Though this made me think: why didn't the No Lynch debate ever bring up fake votes? Like each person says who they would vote for, but not actually vote. So you have a tally, but no lynch.

Here's the start of the fake vote exchange.
And for the sake of getting these two thoguhts in one place, here's Legate's response.

Originally Posted by Legate

Hey, THAT is actually a pretty good idea. Because seriously. It would kinda force the Wolves' hands (or tongues). I like that. I mean people can of course flip-flop later, but it isn't easy. I like it. I wholeheartedly second it. Let's do this!

And here's Pitch putting it on Legate

Originally Posted by Pitch

OK, Legate, let me ask you: What exactly do we have to gain from the kind of fake vote you're suggesting?
If it is just that, a fake vote with no real lynch as per G55, we've effectively wasted a day, nobody has to fear the consequences of their vote because without a lynch, we won't know whether they voted for an innoent or a wolf, and the wolves can go wolf-on-wolf to their hearts' content witrh no danger to any of them.
If it's just that people announce beforehand whom they are planning to vote, and the vote takes place later, and we compare what people said before to how they actually voted, how is this different from what we usually do?
This strikes me as a pseudo-useful suggestion/discussion. *ping*

In her next post G55 distances herself from her own idea.

Originally Posted by G55

Ok, cobbler much? Even I don't like my idea with so much enthusiasm. I was mainly kinda curious if that tack has ever been tried - and why not, cause it's marginally less bad than the No Votes At All camp.

In reading these all back to back without focusing much on other posts, I do find the exchange more bantering initiallty then I did at first. G55 throws an idea out without much gusto. Legate's response reads more excited player latching onto a new idea. Pitch looks to be the one taking it more seriously than the other two. That is until G55 puts distance between herself and the idea.
In fact all of her posts, that I took to be banter, "day 1 no lynch," she comes quick to the defense of. "Come on, guys, I wasn't advocating that." She's trying to get as far away as possible.
Ugh, I'm out of time to do this.
Based on my skimming and intial reactions, my gut says G55 or Pitch. However, I didn't get enough of their later posts to feel super comfortable, not when Rikae had a lot of back and forth with G55. But I need to vote, so
++Pitchwife
Of the three original posters to the fake vote idea, Pitch seemed to be laying bait for the other two. He didn't originate the idea, but he did seem to want to trap Legate into looking guilty. And then his vote for Brinn when she was gaining a lot of trajection and already received one vote.