In the Shadow of the Star: Discussion Thread (Part 1)

[Child of the 7th Age]

Rose,

Thanks for checking!

Cami and Lorien have to talk first. Then you should arrive the next day, probably right after Mithadan's arrival.

Cami

[Nurumaiel]

I've put up a save spot on the main thread which I'll fill in tomorrow.

Child PMed me and suggested that Angelica 'rescue' Cami from Fatty. However Frodo is going to try for it. Will Frodo fail, and will Fatty go back to Cami, or should I forget rescuing Cami. Let me know either way.

~Angelica Baggins

[mark12_30]

Oh, no, certainly not. You go right ahead. I didn't know that you and Cami had plans! You do it, Angelica!

--Frodo

[Nurumaiel]

Well, the thing is, I don't know if we really did.

Perhaps Frodo can try his hand at it, but Fatty can go back to Cami, and then I can have Angelica call Cami over to talk?

[Child of the 7th Age]

OK, ----Helen, I hope you don't mind. I've put my post in the second half of your box. At the end of my post, Fatty will come roaming over to Cami again.

That's when Angelica can call me over to start talking with her.

Angelica----I'm going to put that in my actual post. You coming up and pulling me away to talk.

I think this sould work fine.

[Nurumaiel]

So should I just post how I arrive and see Fatty talking to Cami, and then let you handle how I 'rescue' you?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Nuru,

My post is up now so you can take it from there.

You can use my character to thank you, and ask questions about your life. Then you can tell me what you've been doing. When you finish with your post, I'll post a reply.

Cami

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[mark12_30]

Orual,

Nice post!! I've saved a spot right after Sam's entrance. Let me know if you've got any plans/ ideas you want woven in that spot. --Frodo

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Helen,

I finally finished that post right under yours. As I explained in my pm, I wanted to get after you and before Angelica. Plus I managed to cross post with Orual, and it didn't make much sense for Frodo to be talking and distracting Fatty, once Sam walked in the door.

Hope this works for you.

Cami

[mark12_30]

Sharon,

I think it works. But guess what happens when a mod cross-posts with someone (for instance me) in the SAME POST! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Luckily I had my section in a wordpad file!! It was gone when I looked again. I just pasted it back in, so al is well, I think. Check it out-- I'll be reading yours in the meantime!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Oh, dear, help! That's never happened before. I can't find your post. Do you still have it in word? Its not in the box ahead of mine.

sharon

[mark12_30]

Yes, I pasted it back in, hit your refresh button. Poor Sharon!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Whew! There it is. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

The post sounds very good, but I feel very bad for Frodo. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Cami

[mark12_30]

Yeah, rereading it, Fatty whups him a bit too successfully. Maril once said that Frodo is very hard to defeat in an argument, and with the exception of (say) Gandalf or an elf, I think she's right; I've got to revisit that post, and toughen Frodo up a bit. He would stumble over the idea, but recover faster than I portrayed, I think.

He can still be shaken by the idea, but not quite so badly.

[mark12_30]

****THANK YOU BIRD***

Bird posted this on another discussion thread and it caught my eye. I'm going to quote it in full here because I think it is hugely pertinent and something I have always struggled with. Here goes:

(quote)Are you sure the words 'Man' and 'Woman' are used in reference to Hobbits? (end quote)

Bird's reply:
While Gandalf is technically correct, in that Tolkien states that Hobbits are related to Men, Halfling's themselves don't seem to be too fond of the comparison.

Tolkien seems to avoid the issue of common gender nouns for adult Halflings by using Old English colloquialisms. He refers to Hobbits as "gaffers" and "gammers", "lads" and "lasses", "gentlehobbits", etc. As to what the Hobbits called themselves, I would imagine that they had their own unique words.

Since there are so many distinct humanoid races in Middle Earth, calling oneself "a man" when you are actually a Halfing would get rather confusing. It's probably for the best that the Good professor deftly avoids making any references to it.

Okay. (Finally!) And Birdie, I buy that wholesale. I know we've waffled on this before (I remember a long discussion about calling Maura a "man", for instance) and I've never settled the issue.

Sharon, I'm probably going back to my most recent posts, and replacing "woman" with "lass". I know that Tolkien clearly states that hobbits are closer to men than anything else-- but Pippin sure reacted negatively to the use of the word in regard to Hobbits, and it always bugs me to call a hobbit a man, or a female hobbit a woman....

(Rebuttals welcome.)

[piosenniel]

Helen -

Has Frodo overcome his fear of Farmer Maggot's dogs while away West? Will his heart thump a little harder at the sight of Fang ensconced on the hearth rug? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[mark12_30]

I suspect Fang will give him pause.

[piosenniel]

Comment on the use of 'lad/lass' - 'gaffer/gammer': Just my bias, but it seems to leave out an entire mature age range, and unless the person speaking is friendly with the one spoken of, 'lad and lass' seem too familiar as terms.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Regarding hobbit terminology. This is a problem, for which I have no immediate solution. It is actually very puzzling and gets into other issues that would best be dealt with in the books and languages forum.

I am inconsistent myself. I do not generally use 'man' or 'woman', although I have on rare occasions. One or two scenes with Maura and Cami come to mind, plus some references to "women" when Cami is with Pio and Bird. I do use 'boy' and 'girl' quite often in my writing and these are also human terms. To be absolutely true to Tolkien, you'd probably need to avoid these gendered terms.

Pio, you're absolutely right about the gap in age between lad/lass and gaffer/gammer. Cami is not really a lass as she is 50 (as are Sam, Merry, etc.); Frodo would be in his 60s! But, to me, gaffer and gammer carry connotations of both age and class that do not jive with any any of these characters. Even Bilbo is not a gammer, despite his advanced age! Here are some terms Tolkien does use. Note that most of these do not include an indication of gender: "goodman," "goodwife," "muddy-feet" (one of my all-time personal favorites), "Shirelings," "Shirefolk," "elders," "people," "children," "gentlehobbit," "female relative," as well as all the usual terms relating to family.

If you stop and think about it, this same problem applies to Elves and dwarves. I don't think Tolkien uses 'woman' for female dwarves or Elves. There is no word to indicate gender in either of those people.

Interesting enough, the one people that does have gender distinction is a people that actually has no "physical" gender, just "spiritual" gender: Vala, Valie, Valar, Valier. Where do these terms come from? Quenyan or Sindarin? Why should Tolkien have created such terms for the Ainur and not for hobbits? Or perhaps, in Quenyan or Sindarin, there is a term with gender distinctions for Elves, and I just don't know it? And the same in the dwarvish tongue?

My understanding is that Westron and Adunaic did carry gender differences in the languages themselves, but I don't think Quenyan did. (I am no expert and could be wrong.) In Tolkien's Westron, names that end in "a" are masculine and "o" or "e" feminine. Hence, Bilbo is really Bilba. Adunaic, for instance, even has a single word for baby boy--which English doesn't.

Very strange when you think about it. With no terms for adult gender distinctions in English for Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, it tends to de-emphasize the possibility of sexuality among those folk. (Please no one throw rocks at me!) But this is the limitation of the English language, not something that Tolkien did.

In summary, I have no answer for this, but it opens up some other puzzling questions, best dealt with in other forums. Just do what you feel comfortable with!

Cami

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[mark12_30]

OK. But at the risk of being annoying, does anybody have a reasonable suggestion for "50-year-old-hobbit-lady"? Gentlehobbit... hobbitess? argh... Hobbit-lady seems so awkward, but I'll use it if I have to, although Hobbitess has a certain appeal.

I've always used "Hobbit" for nondescript males and frequently fall back on Gentlehobbit for politer moments... suggestions welcome.

Hey, I've gone past 1000 posts.

Mith, did you bust yourself or were you busted??

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

First, there are many great posts that have been inserted in the Save spaces. You will want to go back and reread the last half of the second page.

Nuru/Angelica Strong post--I'll respond and splice it into the same box right under your own post.

Pio,

I have gone ahead and inserted a post under yours of 2/26 at 7:46 p.m. Only my character would have the epiphany of her life while engaged in the middle of a conversation at the Green Dragon Inn! That post spilled out. I didn't plan on it. Just hope Varda was listening, as Cami definitely needs some assistance.

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[mark12_30]

Wow, Sharon, You weren't kidding! And all around, clueless voices chime in, "Oh, Cheer up and enjoy the party..."

Speaking of Party, I'd like to interact with Pippin before the space I saved. Sharon, I'll write up a Frodo/Pippin/Merry post-- and can I either send it to you, or post it here, and could you jam it in shortly after Pippin's post? (Dragoneyes) ...Then Sam can join the four others.

[piosenniel]

Sharon - Do you want Pio to have 'heard' that plea? and Frodo - he might have 'heard' it also.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Yes to both Frodo and Pio....an interesting idea. I assume Loren would have also heard it, if he were listening. But he doesn't arrive till later, I think.

Helen -- I will be glad to jam the post in anywhere but will be careful that person isn't on the board.

Pio--did you know that Helen and I crossposted in the same space and I deleted her post. I wasn't deleting anything, just editing. I didn't know that could happen.

Cami

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[piosenniel]

Where did Lorien disappear? Is he upstairs primping for his grand entry? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Just got a nice post from Arwen Baggins which I will paste up now or after dinner (whichever comes first!)

Cami

[piosenniel]

Gee, with such Mod-power - we could join the X-Men!

*oops

now you know I read comics as well as other forms of literature [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[mark12_30]

OK. Now for Frodo hearing Cami's plea to Varda-- I'm not so sure that he would have. I will roll with whatever you folks like; but it seems to me that prayer and Osanwe are two different things. Osanwe is the meeting of soul and spirit and heart over distance (I believe significantly helped by Eru, developed as a skill but dependant on his grace, I think. That's my personal take on it anyway.)

However, Prayer works because of the omniscience and omnipresence of Eru-- he hears you because he's there all the time and he sees and hears every thought in every heart-- not because you are good at Osanwe.

In terms of How Did Varda hear it then-- I have to believe that Eru passed the message from Cami to Varda. Frodo would not have heard it unless Eru also brought the message to him-- which Eru can easily do, but would he with such a private, intimate plea? I believe, only if Cami's well-being needed Frodo's participation.

I suppose that's some Catholic theology at work, and some evangelical bible thrown in, but there it is... now, having said that, Cami, you choose. It's your plea! I'll play as you see fit.

(My own opinion of Osanwe is that Eru (in the person of the Holy Spirit, or "The Flame Imperishable") is the message bearer. How's that for explosive controversy! What a great matter a little fire kindleth...)

Anyway, Cami, let me know and I will have Frodo hear or not hear however much or little as you would like.

[piosenniel]

About editing/filling in saves:

I am saving the Game to floppy as we go along.

Most of the 'SAVES' I can pick up if they are recently placed ones - but if you fill in a save further back in the story or edit your posts, please let me know so I can get them copied correctly.

Thanks, in advance!

[Child of the 7th Age]

OK, working from this scenario, I think it most likely that Pio would have heard it rather than Frodo. There are a number of reasons for this. Pio is Cami's close friend--Cami has always been a bit shy of Frodo.

Whether you take it from the osanwe perspective (Pio being able to hear her friend whom she is used to picking up on) or the perspective of the message being a gift from Eru to Pio (Pio needing to help Cami), I think the character involved would more likely be Piosenniel.

I also think at some point in the story that Cami will go and talk with Frodo....possibly about Maura but more likely about Gamba and the boys. She may feel he's the only one to understand the kind of nightmare they've been forced to endure and how she can help them.

Hope this clarifies things...

Cami

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

I finished my post responding to Angelica and have put a lead-in for Pio at the end.

sharon

[Child of the 7th Age]

This is the time line we are aiming for. It is not set in stone, but it will give folk some idea of what is going on.

The party and welcoming part on Friday and Saturday. The actual dinner will start on Sunday (real time) and will end Tuesday evening (real time) with the departure of the guests.

If anyone will have difficuly with this, let us know.

The following events will occur in roughly this order:

1. Lorien and Cami talk during and after the party. (Mith, Child)

2. Mith and Bird arrive at the Inn. (Mith, Bird)

3. Next day, game time: All of these arrive on the same day at the Inn:

Maura arrives with family in one location in the Inn (Child)

Lindo and Snowhobbits arrive in another location in the Inn (Mark 12_30)

The crew from Greenwood arrive: Rose Goodchild, in one chamber, and the boys in another. (The White Lady, Child)

Maura's post should come first. After he posts the arrival of his family, others can hop on board in any order than they want.

Onward and upward.

Cami

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pio,

I pasted in Arwen's post under Orual's from 2/26 at 10:21 p.m.

Arwen,

Good job.

sharon

[Mithadan]

Lorien is in da house! I filled in one of my saves. Child, look at it please to make sure it fits with your plans. I'll change it if you wish.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Lorien,

Thank you for your arrival!

Oh, yes, I can manage with that. With her recent epiphany, Cami will have definitely decided to make a clean slate with Fatty. However, everytime she attempts to do so, something will happen to interrupt or divert her, much to her frustration.

BTW, I would dearly love to see Lorien do a dream scene, especially one like that: Fatty's nightmare of life with Cami, the ill tempered old hag!

sharon

[ February 28, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[piosenniel]

Rose Cotton

I placed your post right after mine. Nicely done - Pio will tell a short story, then take you two back to the party with her.

[Mithadan]

Mithadan has...errrr..."arrived" in the Shire.

[mark12_30]

So that's what "busted" means.

Wait'll you try to stand up in the Lockholes. Poor Cramped Mithadan.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Poor Mithadan! You can't trust those hobbits.

I filled in my back save space on 2/27 which was responding to Pio's concern and advise, and setting up the scene for the shift in midwives.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Where shall I fit in the "change of midwives scene". There is where Rose asks Cami --who will definitely decline and Angelica will accept.

The slot after Bird arrives doesn't seem like a good idea. How about the bottom of Page 2???

Angelica will presumably need to speak with you sometime later in the thead.

sharon