Arwen vs. Galadriel

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Gil-galad fought Sauron with Elendil and it would seem Elendil alsted longer.

So? Before that Sauron took out Finrod and Beren [The Lay of Leithian; 2167-2214]. Why should his fighting with Elendil make a difference that the two of them defeated Melkor's greatest servant?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power.

I never said it does, but you did say Glorfindel was, "an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer". My point is that there were other Elves of great power who also slew Maia, and obviously there are those who did not slay any Balrog who are of great power.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Glorfindel already was a Balrog slayer and after this had his powers GREATLY enhanced.

How are you going to argue that, "Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power" when I mention other Elves and their battles with Maiar, but you continue to say Glorfindel is "a Balrog slayer" as if it qualifies more with him?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This quote by Gandalf also adds weight to the argument.

"Even if you chose for us an Elf-Lord such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road of fire by the power that is in him."

I disagree with you taking that to mean Glorfindel was the strongest.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It is Glorfindel alongside Gandalf who have the seats at the right and left hand of Elrond.

By that logic as the head Elrond is the most powerful, stronger than even Gandalf who is not at the head. I'm not sure that sitting in a position of honor necessarily makes reference to one's power compared to all others.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Is there a direct statement that Glorfindel is the most powerful elf in Middle Earth? No. However, like with Sauron personally attacking Imladris, all the evidence implies he was.

Again I disagree with you. Evidence says that Galadriel "was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, p. 270] When did Sauron personally attack Imladris?

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Sauron would have had to march to Rivendell giving fleeing elves time to escape there first.

<snip>

Sauron with the bulk of his army was most likely at Rivendell, whilst he had other bands destroying groups of men and elves around Eriador.

Here I cannot take you seriously. Do you see the contradiction in your thoughts?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Here I cannot take you seriously. Do you see the contradiction in your thoughts?

There is no contradiction.
Sauron takes out Eregion and then turns to drive back the dwarves.
During this time Elrond flees North.
Sauron cannot get through Moria so turns back to conquer Eriador.
He heads North with the bulk of his army to Rivendell.
Elves and men in line of his march start fleeing to Rivendell.
Gets to Rivendell with the bulk of his army and puts it under siege.
Sends out other troops to take areas in Eriador whilst he sieges Rivendell.
After a year or so realises taking Rivendell is too hard and would have a better chance with the rings.
Has to leave a sizeable force at Rivendell and sets out for Lindon.
Calls up another southern army.
Numenoreans arrive.

Fairly straight forward and logical.

Now let's compare it with your version.

Takes Eregion.
Heads back to take out the drawves. Cannot get past Moria.
Decides to take over Eriador.
Sauron personally leads the bulk of his army destroying small groups of men and elves, whilst his most hated enemy is unchecked.
For 2 years he completely ignores his most hated and biggest threat in Eriador.
Decides to invade Lindon.
Suddenly remembers he has left his most hated and biggest threat unchecked in Eriador and only then sends part of his force to siege Rivendell, leaving his army weakened.

Now which seems more logical and makes the most sense?

EDIT

In addition Tolkien meant to develop how Glorfindel was specifically sent by the Valar to help Elrond deal with the wars against Sauron in the second age.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

So? Before that Sauron took out Finrod and Beren [The Lay of Leithian; 2167-2214]. Why should his fighting with Elendil make a difference that the two of them defeated Melkor's greatest servant?

Physical battle is not the only indicator of power. Curufin could capture Luthien, but she was leagues above him in power. Nor did Sauron take out Finrod and Beren by himself in armed combat. How can you say having the help of a very powerful Numenorean Lord like Elendil did not matter?

I never said it does, but you did say Glorfindel was, "an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer". My point is that there were other Elves of great power who also slew Maia, and obviously there are those who did not slay any Balrog who are of great power.

Only three elves ever slew Maiar. Gil-galad worked in tandem with Elendil. The difference between Glorfindel and the others is that he became MUCH more powerful afterwards.

How are you going to argue that, "Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power" when I mention other Elves and their battles with Maiar, but you continue to say Glorfindel is "a Balrog slayer" as if it qualifies more with him?

A great deal of power is needed to fight a Maiar of any sort and that is only three elves were able to do so, but defeating someone physically does not mean you are of equal power. Power is not just physical, but also spiritual. Galadriel the mightiest of the elves, who remained is still not likely to be able to defeat Gil-galad in a battle despite being a great warrior herself. Not all power is used just for fight.

I disagree with you taking that to mean Glorfindel was the strongest.

It is not a definitive statement, but it implies he was. Added with the all the other bits then he seems to be the most powerful.

By that logic as the head Elrond is the most powerful, stronger than even Gandalf who is not at the head. I'm not sure that sitting in a position of honor necessarily makes reference to one's power compared to all others.

I never said it was a reference to power alone, but also a place of honour. Elrond as Head of the House would have the head seat. Other indications that Gil-galad was the most powerful is that he is given command of the forces of Rivendell.

Again I disagree with you. Evidence says that Galadriel "was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, p. 270] When did Sauron personally attack Imladris?

That would be great except Glorfindel did not remain in Middle-Earth. He died, repented and was greatly enhanced before being sent back alongside the Istari to fight against Sauron.

EDIT
Some further quotes about Glorfindel.

He talks about how Glorfindel being a hero of the first age would be suited to come back then says this.

"This supposition would indeed explain the air of special power and sanctity that surrounds Glorfindel."

After talking about his reincarnation.

"We can thus understand why he seems so powerful a figure almost 'angelic'."

Talks about his friendship with Gandalf and then once more mentions his power.

"he appears as specially concerned for Gandalf, and was one (the most powerful, it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell..."

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by tom tom

elf beat other elf? tom not care.

all elf sissy. tom beat elf.

tom have power. tom bot.

tom make sissy elf cry.

Tom Tom's grammar could be neater,

Of that one can't deny;

But worse, he's muddled Bombadil's meter --

For that he should be tried.

[Galadriel55]

Ok, seriously, who is this? Nerwen? Boro? sally? Someone else?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by tom tom

tom prose poet.

Tom Tom, a prose poet?

I certainly wouldn't know it.

To capitalize like ee cummings

Takes poor Bomby down a-dumbing.

So please, forsake the ungainly rhyme

And post again some other time.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Ok, seriously, who is this? Nerwen? Boro? sally? Someone else?

It's the t(remendously) o(nerous) m(osquitobot) program, determined to suck the fun out of every corner of the 'net and cover us all with imitation Rolex watches and time shares to oceanfront condos in Kansas City!

To stay sort of on-topic in this thread, I'll go with Galadriel as the greater. Standing up to Melian and not giving a straight answer about the flight of the Noldor, forming the White Council, throwing down Dol Guldur with her bare hands, all without mussing her hair, gives her the edge over Daddy's Little Girl™.

[Blind Guardian]

Originally Posted by tom tom

elf girl ugly.

lucyyenic beat elf girl.

lucy siren of cyberspace.

I am stalking your posts now Boro. Keep this up!

[Fey]

arwen (and luthien) would probably been considered the most beautiful by most people in middle earth (that is by humans and elves, valar and maiar probably too, but i would think that for example hobbits have different beauty standards. and what would orcs think? do they even find anything beautiful?)

but galadriel actually does something to influence the big events and in her hair is light of the trees, even if her face was ugly, i would still choose her.

[Inziladun]

You know, I think what really would give Galadriel an edge in physical beauty was the fact that she was born in Valinor. That experience had a notable impact on the returning Noldor, and the differences between them and the Moriquendi were visible.
The attractiveness Galadriel would have possessed genetically would have been enhanced by the light of Aman.

[jallanite]

Tolkien in writing The Lord of the Rings was consciously writing a romance, in the traditional sense, in which female beauty is very, very, very important, far more important than male beauty. Compare Tom Bombadil with his wife Goldberry.

But in reality, even in our world and time people have different standards of beauty. I have found that someone whom one person thinks is extraordinarily beautiful another person thinks is only so-so or even worse, and vice-versa. But in a story each reader or listener can insert his or her own ideas of physical perfection. But not in a dramatic representation.

To make it worse, in The Lord of the Rings, female beauty is directly related to a person’s position in the class system. There seems to be no such thing as dirt-poor and powerless, but insanely beautiful. And apparently a female’s moral and spiritual stature is directly related to that female’s beauty and hereditary class position.

This is quite suitable to the genre of romance of course. Things are quite different in the anti-romance Father Giles of Ham.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by jallanite

To make it worse, in The Lord of the Rings, female beauty is directly related to a person’s position in the class system. There seems to be no such thing as dirt-poor and powerless, but insanely beautiful. And apparently a female’s moral and spiritual stature is directly related to that female’s beauty and hereditary class position.

You're not counting Ioreth, then?

The point is taken, but maybe Tolkien switched up things with Aldarion and Erendis. She was descended from Bëor, but not royalty, and initially thought Aldarion too high for her station. They married anyway, and of course their union had some unpleasant consequences. Maybe that's why we see the beautiful and powerful women most: they are associated with the more powerful and high-blooded males.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

You're not counting Ioreth, then?

No I am not.

Nor am I counting Éowyn, Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, or Shelob or various females mentioned only in the Appendices. Éowyn would fit, as of royal kin and very beautiful.

The point is taken, but maybe Tolkien switched up things with Aldarion and Erendis. She was descended from Bëor, but not royalty, and initially thought Aldarion too high for her station. They married anyway, and of course their union had some unpleasant consequences. Maybe that's why we see the beautiful and powerful women most: they are associated with the more powerful and high-blooded males.

The story “Aldarion and Erendis” appears to me to be somewhat removed from the more romance tale of The Lord of the Rings. It seems to me to be closer in style to the Icelandic sagas.

Yet here too Tolkien writes of Ancalimë, the daughter that Erendis bore to Aldarion:

Even from birth the child was fair, and grew ever in beauty: the woman most beautiful, as old tales tell, that ever was born in the line of Elros, save Ar-Zimraphel the last.

By attributing this information to  “old tales” Tolkien may be suggesting some exaggeration by poets and tale-tellers. Yet here again Tolkien indicates two of the most highly born women are the most beautiful, those famed in story.

As to Erendis daughter of Beregar herself, Tolkien at first only indicates:

There Almarian the Queen observed her [Erendis’] beauty, of a kind seldom seen in Númenor; for Beregar came of the House of Bëor by ancient descent, though not of the royal line of Elros, and Erendis was dark-haired and of slender grace, with the clear, grey eyes of her kin.

But later he writes of Erendis:

… in time she [Erendis] ceased to be abashed, and became aware that men looked with wonder upon her beauty, now come to its full.

It is indeed reasonable that powerful men or elves should take beautiful women as their wives but I feel Tolkien somewhat overdoes the emphasis on beauty.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

You know, I think what really would give Galadriel an edge in physical beauty was the fact that she was born in Valinor. That experience had a notable impact on the returning Noldor, and the differences between them and the Moriquendi were visible.
The attractiveness Galadriel would have possessed genetically would have been enhanced by the light of Aman.

The biggest enhancer of beauty seems to have been descent from Melian: Luthien most beautiful out of all the children of Eru, Dior second most beautiful out of all the children of Illuvater, Elwing second most beautiful maiden.

Earendil another with surpassing beauty had not see the trees either.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Dior second most beautiful out of all the children of Illuvater, Elwing second most beautiful maiden.

Meh. Who wants seconds?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Meh. Who wants seconds?

Seconds? Yes please! I'm still hungry!

[Faramir Jones]

When Fëanor married the sculptress Nerdanel, people wondered why he did so, due to her being not particularly beautiful. But she was creative, strong and wise, the only person whose advice he listened to; and they became the most prolific elvish couple ever, having seven children.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Sauron takes out Eregion and then turns to drive back the dwarves.
During this time Elrond flees North.

Actually, after Sauron sacked Eregion and could not find what he was looking for [that being "the chief object of Sauron's assuault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures." -249, but not finding all the Rings Sauron tortured Celebrimbor to learn of their whereabouts.] & he could not get Celebrimbor to tell, he "turned upon the forces of Elrond" [p. 250] He was only able turn on the Dwarves after his "host had been attacked in the rear" [250] by them as Elrond "would indeed have been overwhelmed" [250] if not for their intervention. Interestingly this is basically the same force you claim was able to keep Sauron himself from invading Rivendell, the same Sauron who not only bore the One Ring, but would surely have overthrown Rivendell had he gotten the Ring back in the 3rd Age. Elrond did not even have Vilya at this point. In any case, let's continue.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

He heads North with the bulk of his army to Rivendell.
Elves and men in line of his march start fleeing to Rivendell.

After leaving south-eastern Eriador [check a map] he does set out to conquer Eriador, most of which is to the North of where he is which is why anyone running from him would probably flee to the north, as he is coming from the South, and Rivendell being way up to the N-E of the region. But Rivendell is not his goal.

"Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon" [250]. Why Lindon? Because at Lindon "he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings".

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Gets to Rivendell with the bulk of his army and puts it under siege.
Sends out other troops to take areas in Eriador whilst he sieges Rivendell.

The siege is placed on Rivendell so that he can at once set out to his immediate purpose "to take Lindon" and to avoid being taken by surprise from his rear again.

"leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear."

It is when he "marched west towards the lands of Gil-galad" that they "ravaged as they went"[ 250]. They also ravaged the lands as he moved from the south back up into the north of Eriador. Again, since fleeing north is a logical thing to do for the Elves as Sauron was coming from the south of Eriador to "gain the mastery of Eriador" [remember, most of Eriador was to the north anyways from his southern position].

Originally Posted by cellurdur

After a year or so realises taking Rivendell is too hard and would have a better chance with the rings.

This is the same Elrond whose forces he could have destroyed earlier. Not only that Elrond is not even bearing a Ring of Power and Sauron has the One. Also we know that Sauron could have destroyed Rivendell in the 3rd Age as well. So how is it that with the Ring, being there in person himself, with his armies he can't do it now, against a force we are told not so long ago he would have overwhelmed?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

In addition Tolkien meant to develop how Glorfindel was specifically sent by the Valar to help Elrond deal with the wars against Sauron in the second age.

And they got routed by Sauron. If not for the Elves and Dwarves that attacked them from behind Elrond "would indeed have been overwhelmed".

My point is that Sauron

Invades Eriador, to take the Rings
Fights off Elrond and Celeborn until he sacks Eregion "he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough BOTH to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion." [p. 249]
Chases Elrond and his forces which he could have destroyed had not Elves and Dwarves from Khazad-dûm and Lórinand saved him. "He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron's host been attacked in the rear" [p. 250]
Leaves Elrond and chases his saviours to the mines of Moria. "turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lórinand, whom he drove back"
Heads north, not to lay a siege on Rivendell, but because most of Eriador is to the north which is where he has to go if he plans on gaining the mastery of it. No clear statement is made that he went North to lay a siege on Gondor, other then that he laid siege to it in order to go west and prevent an attack from his rear. Otherwise it is quite clear that when Sauron went to invade Eriador he, "turned north and made at once for Eregion" [p. 249]
He gathers his forces together since he really wants the Rings and leaves a strong force behind to prevent an attack from the rear.
They march west continuing their assault on Eriador to get the Rings from Lindon.
They are routed when the Númenóreans arrive and his force at Imladris is trapped between Elrond and Gil-galad's forces and destroyed.
Sauron barely makes it out.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Physical battle is not the only indicator of power. Curufin could capture Luthien, but she was leagues above him in power. Nor did Sauron take out Finrod and Beren by himself in armed combat. How can you say having the help of a very powerful Numenorean Lord like Elendil did not matter?

I never said physical engagement alone indicates one's power. You're trying to act like I'm comparing apples and oranges. You made a point that Glorfindel took out a Balrog because he is a strong Elf. I said that there are also other great Elves who could fight Maia and win, as in the case of Gil-galad, and Ecthelion. You clearly say, "Glorfindel even before his death was an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer" and I tell you that others have fought Maia as well and won. But when I say this you claim I'm trying to say physical fighting is the only indicator of power. Not so, I'm saying that Glorfindel is not the only Elf who is a Balrog slayer and that Gil-galad took out the greatest of Melkor's servants. The point is how did Gil-galad take out the Balrog, through the power of his mind, spells? He used the tools of war and engaged in physical combat with it and he was not the only Elf to engage a Maia and win this way. That is my point, not that physical strength is the only indicator of power. That, it seems, you pulled out of thin air.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The difference between Glorfindel and the others is that he became MUCH more powerful afterwards.

Where you and I differ in this is that you claim as a result he is the most powerful Elf in M-E at this point. I believe Galadriel is the superior by any standard, and that there are possibly others as well. Btw, just because other Elves did NOT GET to kill a Blarog or some Maia does not mean they couldn't. Please keep that in mind as you give Glorfindel the title, Balrog slayer.

It appears to me you are trying to bring various excuses up to bolster your arguments. Sauron was also beaten in tandem by Luthien and Huan earlier in the first Age, and it is you I believe, who believes Luthien to be the most powerful of all the Elves. So we have Luthien + Huan [The Lay of Leithian; 2726-89] beat Sauron, and Gil-galad + Elendil beat a bolstered Sauron with the One Ring. Why are you trying to belittle Gild-galad's efforts? Sure Elendil is more likely than not a beast of a Man, but Huan is no cupcake either.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

A great deal of power is needed to fight a Maiar of any sort and that is only three elves were able to do so

3 powerful Elves got the opportunity to do so. Again, I want to make it clear, that unlike you, I do not believe that because some other powerful Elf did not get the opportunity does not mean they could not. One of the most incredible things to me was how Fëanor was able to fight against MULTIPLE Balrogs and was only stopped when Gothmog knocked him senseless. He fought hard and long in that affair, fearing not his enemies.

"Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds" [Sil., ch. 13, p. 125] Though he did not win, and died of his wounds after his sons saved him, he and he alone " was made the mightiest... of all the Children of Ilúvatar" [ch. 11, p. 112]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

defeating someone physically does not mean you are of equal power

I said that? I do not recall. If I did I was surely mistaken because I know I do not think that because someone beats another that it necessarily means they are more powerful. Many get their day in the Sun. Éowyn & Merry defeated the Witch-king for instance.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Galadriel the mightiest of the elves, who remained is still not likely to be able to defeat Gil-galad in a battle despite being a great warrior herself.

Possible. She is compared in ways to Manwë and with Melian, but I'm of the opinion that even in her youth she was trained to fight, did fight, and was extremely skilled at it. I think, personally, should could have fought with Gil-galad in a purely physical level [although one needs mental toughness in such endeavors] and won even though we are generally given the view that his was not necessarily her thing, which funnily enough also applies to Sauron.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

it implies he was

No it doesn't. Galadriel was. You even mentioned that of the Elves who remained in the 3rd Age from the 2nd [which included Glorfindel because he clearly remained] she was the most powerful.

"she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., p 370]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

he seems to be the most powerful

I disagree, that is, "added with the all the other bits" concerning Galadriel. He is powerful, do not get me wrong, but I think there are still others who are like that who "against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power" FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 1 p. 269]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Other indications that Gil-galad was the most powerful is that he is given command of the forces of Rivendell

I'm not sure what you mean here, but clearly there may be captains who have mightier officers in their train. Take for instance Glorfindel and Elrond. Was not Elrond in command of forces that included Glorfindel, sent by Gil-galad to aid Celebrimbor? Don't you think the latter is mightier than the former?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Glorfindel did not remain in Middle-Earth

Yes he did. He came back around 1200 of the 2nd Age probably and remained in the 3rd Age. In fact the portion in which Galadriel is said to be the mightiest says "all the Elves" not just of the Eldar who came from Aman.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

When Fëanor married the sculptress Nerdanel, people wondered why he did so, due to her being not particularly beautiful. But she was creative, strong and wise, the only person whose advice he listened to; and they became the most prolific elvish couple ever, having seven children.

Fëanor had a lot of energy to burn in all spheres, sexual and otherwise, that's why when he died his body turned to ash. He was too hot to trot.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

We know this, because Tolkien called Feanor the mightiest of the Noldor.

Not only that, he is called the mightiest of all the Children of Ilúvatar [Sil. ch. 11, p. 112].

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Is there anything to suggest Galadriel was greater than Elrond?

Sure there is. It is said that "she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., p 370] for instance.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Part of the difference is that Elrond is not an Elf.

Then Elros is not a Man if this is your logic. Elrond is an Elf, he chose to be so, as is said in Appendix A;

"At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind"

Elrond is called the Half-elven because of his descent, but he IS an Elf, and chose to be so. Just has Elros is also called Half-elven, "Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven." [RotK, App. A] but he IS a Man because he chose to be so.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

When Tolkien writes of the Eldar, he leaves Elrond seperate.

From the Silmarillion, "In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [ch. 24, p. 315]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Why does he say that Elrond is the oldest of his race.

I would think because a group of the Númenóreans were Half-elven as well, though as we know they were in any case Men, in this case, High Men or Kings of Men, Dúnedain. Take for instance Erendis, a Númenórean, who says of the Men of Númenor, "Men in Númenor are half-Elves (said Erendis), especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other." [Aldarion and Erendis, p. 216]

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Not only that, he is called the mightiest of all the Children of Ilúvatar [Sil. ch. 11, p. 112].



Sure there is. It is said that "she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., p 370] for instance.

Elrond was not an Elf. He is never referred to as an Elf. He is always Elrond the Halfelven. Nor are his sons or daughter called elves.

Then Elros is not a Man if this is your logic. Elrond is an Elf, he chose to be so, as is said in Appendix A;

"At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind"

Elrond is called the Half-elven because of his descent, but he IS an Elf, and chose to be so. Just has Elros is also called Half-elven, "Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven." [RotK, App. A] but he IS a Man because he chose to be so.



From the Silmarillion, "In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [ch. 24, p. 315]

Nothing here says he was an elf. Quite the opposite. He chose to have the life of the Elves, but he remained one of the Peredhil.

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."-Letter 345.

The Halfevel are never included when the elves are mentioned. Notice how the Sons of Elrond are mentioned separately from Legolas the Elf. Legolas does not fear the Paths of the Dead, but we must assume the Sons of Elrond did.

I would think because a group of the Númenóreans were Half-elven as well, though as we know they were in any case Men, in this case, High Men or Kings of Men, Dúnedain. Take for instance Erendis, a Númenórean, who says of the Men of Númenor, "Men in Númenor are half-Elves (said Erendis), especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other." [Aldarion and Erendis, p. 216]

There's the point. Elrond and Elros always remained Half-elven and had powers of both races. Even Aragorn is not strictly a pure man, but a descendant of Luthien.

'Anyway, a difference in the use of ‘magic’ in this story is that it is not to be come by by ‘lore’ or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn’s ‘healing’ might be regarded as ‘magical’, or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and ‘hypnotic’ processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A. is not a pure ‘Man’, but at long remove one of the ‘children of Luthien’-letter 155

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Actually, after Sauron sacked Eregion and could not find what he was looking for [that being "the chief object of Sauron's assuault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures." -249, but not finding all the Rings Sauron tortured Celebrimbor to learn of their whereabouts.] & he could not get Celebrimbor to tell, he "turned upon the forces of Elrond" [p. 250] He was only able turn on the Dwarves after his "host had been attacked in the rear" [250] by them as Elrond "would indeed have been overwhelmed" [250] if not for their intervention. Interestingly this is basically the same force you claim was able to keep Sauron himself from invading Rivendell, the same Sauron who not only bore the One Ring, but would surely have overthrown Rivendell had he gotten the Ring back in the 3rd Age. Elrond did not even have Vilya at this point. In any case, let's continue.

The difference is Rivendell had decreased in power with other elves leaving and dying in the Last Alliance. At the same time whilst Sauron would have eventually taken Rivendell in the War of the Ring, it would have been one of the last if not the very last place to fall and would be after everything else had been take. Nothing suggest it would be taken in a short time.

After leaving south-eastern Eriador [check a map] he does set out to conquer Eriador, most of which is to the North of where he is which is why anyone running from him would probably flee to the north, as he is coming from the South, and Rivendell being way up to the N-E of the region. But Rivendell is not his goal.

"Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon" [250]. Why Lindon? Because at Lindon "he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings".

Except you ignore that his first goal was to gain the mastery of Eriador. You don't just leave a large force undefended at your back. Sauron would have been very foolish to do this without attempting to take Rivendell and we know he did lay siege to it.

The siege is placed on Rivendell so that he can at once set out to his immediate purpose "to take Lindon" and to avoid being taken by surprise from his rear again.

"leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear."

It is when he "marched west towards the lands of Gil-galad" that they "ravaged as they went"[ 250]. They also ravaged the lands as he moved from the south back up into the north of Eriador. Again, since fleeing north is a logical thing to do for the Elves as Sauron was coming from the south of Eriador to "gain the mastery of Eriador" [remember, most of Eriador was to the north anyways from his southern position].

What you are saying makes not sense. It says he ravaged the lands first as he was heading North to Rivendell. Secondly we know it takes him 3 years to eventually invade Lindon. Do you really think that Sauron was taking 3 years wiping out small groups of Elves and men, whilst ignoring his biggest threat in the area?

This is the same Elrond whose forces he could have destroyed earlier. Not only that Elrond is not even bearing a Ring of Power and Sauron has the One. Also we know that Sauron could have destroyed Rivendell in the 3rd Age as well. So how is it that with the Ring, being there in person himself, with his armies he can't do it now, against a force we are told not so long ago he would have overwhelmed?

The difference is that Elrond was fighting in open battle. Rivendell was a defensible place and Elrond could call such things as the River to his assistance. We know Sauron would have taken Rivendell eventually, but you seem to think it would have happened at the drop of the hat. Even with the One Ring he could never take Minas Tirith. Anarion not only halted his invasion, but managed to drive him back. Taking Rivendell is something that would require a lot more time that you are implying. Sauron obviously got impatient with the siege and tried to take Lindon immediately.

And they got routed by Sauron. If not for the Elves and Dwarves that attacked them from behind Elrond "would indeed have been overwhelmed".

Once more open battle is not the same as defending a strong hold out, which you can enchant to help you in the fight.

My point is that Sauron

Invades Eriador, to take the Rings
Fights off Elrond and Celeborn until he sacks Eregion "he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough BOTH to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion." [p. 249]
Chases Elrond and his forces which he could have destroyed had not Elves and Dwarves from Khazad-dûm and Lórinand saved him. "He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron's host been attacked in the rear" [p. 250]
Leaves Elrond and chases his saviours to the mines of Moria. "turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lórinand, whom he drove back"
Heads north, not to lay a siege on Rivendell, but because most of Eriador is to the north which is where he has to go if he plans on gaining the mastery of it. No clear statement is made that he went North to lay a siege on Gondor, other then that he laid siege to it in order to go west and prevent an attack from his rear. Otherwise it is quite clear that when Sauron went to invade Eriador he, "turned north and made at once for Eregion" [p. 249]
He gathers his forces together since he really wants the Rings and leaves a strong force behind to prevent an attack from the rear.
They march west continuing their assault on Eriador to get the Rings from Lindon.
They are routed when the Númenóreans arrive and his force at Imladris is trapped between Elrond and Gil-galad's forces and destroyed.
Sauron barely makes it out.

I have already explained why your view does not make sense. You have Sauron spending years fighting small groups of Elves, whilst he ignored his biggest threat.

You have Sauron happily weaken his forces and leave a large part of his army behind, instead of trying to take Rivendell first.

I never said physical engagement alone indicates one's power. You're trying to act like I'm comparing apples and oranges. You made a point that Glorfindel took out a Balrog because he is a strong Elf. I said that there are also other great Elves who could fight Maia and win, as in the case of Gil-galad, and Ecthelion. You clearly say, "Glorfindel even before his death was an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer" and I tell you that others have fought Maia as well and won. But when I say this you claim I'm trying to say physical fighting is the only indicator of power. Not so, I'm saying that Glorfindel is not the only Elf who is a Balrog slayer and that Gil-galad took out the greatest of Melkor's servants. The point is how did Gil-galad take out the Balrog, through the power of his mind, spells? He used the tools of war and engaged in physical combat with it and he was not the only Elf to engage a Maia and win this way. That is my point, not that physical strength is the only indicator of power. That, it seems, you pulled out of thin air.

Where is it implied that Gil-galad was greater than Glorfindel at the fall of Gondolin? Gil-galad fought Sauron with the help of Elendil.

Only two three elves have ever been known to have killed a Maiar and in the case of Gil-galad it seems like Elendil got the final blow. All three died. Once more Gil-galad did not fight alone, but had the help of the equally powerful and mighty King of Arnor and Gondor.

When you face a foe like a Balrog it is always a spiritual battle as well as a physical one. Glorfindel would have had to use both to win. However, the difference between Glorfindel and Ecthelion is that Glorfindel was then made much more powerful on his return.

Where you and I differ in this is that you claim as a result he is the most powerful Elf in M-E at this point. I believe Galadriel is the superior by any standard, and that there are possibly others as well. Btw, just because other Elves did NOT GET to kill a Blarog or some Maia does not mean they couldn't. Please keep that in mind as you give Glorfindel the title, Balrog slayer.

Other elves have tried and failed including Feanor and Fingon amongst others. You believe Galadriel is superior, but you don't really back it up. Glorfindel had the power near Olorin, which is much superior to Galadariel and any other elf in Middle Earth.

You ignore that Glorfindel already one of the most powerful elves, has his powers significantly increased and is now almost an equal to Olorin. Not Gandalf the Grey, but Olorin in Aman.

It appears to me you are trying to bring various excuses up to bolster your arguments. Sauron was also beaten in tandem by Luthien and Huan earlier in the first Age, and it is you I believe, who believes Luthien to be the most powerful of all the Elves. So we have Luthien + Huan [The Lay of Leithian; 2726-89] beat Sauron, and Gil-galad + Elendil beat a bolstered Sauron with the One Ring. Why are you trying to belittle Gild-galad's efforts? Sure Elendil is more likely than not a beast of a Man, but Huan is no cupcake either

Luthien did a little more than just beat Sauron. She put the whole of Hell to sleep. She had the power to put Morgoth, the Balrogs, the orcs, the Maiar, the dragons etc all to sleep. It's you who are trying to downplay the help that Elendil gave. Elendil was also the last to fall in the duel.

3 powerful Elves got the opportunity to do so. Again, I want to make it clear, that unlike you, I do not believe that because some other powerful Elf did not get the opportunity does not mean they could not. One of the most incredible things to me was how Fëanor was able to fight against MULTIPLE Balrogs and was only stopped when Gothmog knocked him senseless. He fought hard and long in that affair, fearing not his enemies.

Feanor was not alone and there were only ever around 5 Balrogs ever. Other elves had the opportunity, but none of them are ever recorded as having the ability to defeat a Maiar.

"Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds" [Sil., ch. 13, p. 125] Though he did not win, and died of his wounds after his sons saved him, he and he alone " was made the mightiest... of all the Children of Ilúvatar" [ch. 11, p. 112]

Those are from an early text and things have been rewritten. There is equal evidence that Fingolfin was stronger and had the greater valour, whilst Luthien had unmatched power since she was able to put ALL the Balrogs and Morgoth to sleep.

I said that? I do not recall. If I did I was surely mistaken because I know I do not think that because someone beats another that it necessarily means they are more powerful. Many get their day in the Sun. Éowyn & Merry defeated the Witch-king for instance.

Exactly.

Possible. She is compared in ways to Manwë and with Melian, but I'm of the opinion that even in her youth she was trained to fight, did fight, and was extremely skilled at it. I think, personally, should could have fought with Gil-galad in a purely physical level [although one needs mental toughness in such endeavors] and won even though we are generally given the view that his was not necessarily her thing, which funnily enough also applies to Sauron.

This is your view, but it seems like you are overrating Galadriel. She was a match for the athletes of the Eldar, but she was not noted as being the strongest. Gil-galad is especially praised for his martial skills.

No it doesn't. Galadriel was. You even mentioned that of the Elves who remained in the 3rd Age from the 2nd [which included Glorfindel because he clearly remained] she was the most powerful.

"she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" [Sil., p 370]

Glorfindel obviously did not remain, because he died and had to return. It's an attempt to twist what Tolkien wrote. All through out LOTR Glorfindel is used as an example of the power of an elf.

I disagree, that is, "added with the all the other bits" concerning Galadriel. He is powerful, do not get me wrong, but I think there are still others who are like that who "against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power" FotR, Bk. 2, ch. 1 p. 269]

Yes and Glorfindel is said to be the strongest of them. Glorfindel is the elf noted for being the one to storm the black gates and it is Glorfindel that is comparable to Olorin in power.

I'm not sure what you mean here, but clearly there may be captains who have mightier officers in their train. Take for instance Glorfindel and Elrond. Was not Elrond in command of forces that included Glorfindel, sent by Gil-galad to aid Celebrimbor? Don't you think the latter is mightier than the former?

No I don't think Elrond had the greater power, but he did have the greater rank. I never said it proved that Glorfindel was the most powerful, but it was an indicator. Tolkien himself pretty much confirms Glorfindel was the most powerful elf in Rivendell.

Yes he did. He came back around 1200 of the 2nd Age probably and remained in the 3rd Age. In fact the portion in which Galadriel is said to be the mightiest says "all the Elves" not just of the Eldar who came from Aman.

Yes, because most of the elves are dead and how can he have 'remained' if he died and returned? It's not logically possible to remain if you die and go back to Aman.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond was not an Elf. He is never referred to as an Elf. He is always Elrond the Halfelven. Nor are his sons or daughter called elves.

He is an Elf because the Half-elven were given a choice, ""At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind" And those 2 fates were that of Men or of Elves. Elrond chose "to be of Elven-kind", whether you think so or not. In Letter #153 Tolkien says,

"the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's FATE they will SHARE. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race... Elrond chose to be AMONG THE ELVES. His children- with a renewed Elvish strain... have to make their choices... The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told,: they delay their choice and remain for a while."

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Nothing here says he was an elf.

Sure it does. This was what the whole problem on Númenor was. They wanted to change their fate from that of Men, which the Half-elven Elros chose, to that of Elves, which the Half-elven Elrond chose. He is referred to as Half-elven because of his ancestry, "in them alone the line of heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants." [App. A] Are those of Elven-kind Elves or not? What are they Dwarf, Man, Orc, Troll, Hobbit?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

He chose to have the life of the Elves, but he remained one of the Peredhil.

He was Peredhel because of his ancestry but he clearly chose, as his brother was given leave to do, to choose a fate that of Elves or of Men. He chose that of Elves and his brother that of Men. So even though by ancestry they were both Half-elven, the one became a Man, the other an Elf. He chose the fate of the Elves, which his brother's direct descendants wanted, but they had the fate of Men which their direct ancestor Elros chose. Was Elros a Man having chosen the fate of Men? Was Elrond an Elf having chose the fate of Elves? To you no because they were Half-elven. I say yes, but they were referred to as Half-elven due to their ancestry, not because one was not an Elf and the other not a Man.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Notice how the Sons of Elrond are mentioned separately from Legolas the Elf.

That depends on if they had chosen their fate yet which I do not think they had nor had Arwen. It is said, "to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed" [App. A] To be as Elves or as Men, one Doom or the other. Your assumption is that when Elrond's sons are mentioned with Legolas that they had chosen their fate at that time, "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told,: they delay their choice and remain for a while." [Letter #153]. Do you know this? If so please explain. In PoM-E it is said, "These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind." It seems in this case their choice had to be made before a certain point. Do you know of a point in the 3rd Age when they decided to choose their fate so that you could say "notice how the Sons of Elrond are mentioned separately from Legolas the Elf" implying that they either did not choose the fate of Elves, or that if they had they were still not Elves.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Even Aragorn is not strictly a pure man

Yet still a Man never-the-less. The Elven strain in Men certainly uplifted the race of Men, "The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race" [Letter#153], but they were still Men, the Doom of Men was theirs because they were Men. Elros though Half-elven due to his ancestry, was a Man.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The difference

Difference aside, was this not the same group that Sauron was about to destroy before he left the pursuit of them?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

it would have been one of the last if not the very last place to fall

Please keep geography in mind when you make such declarations lest someone suppose that Rivendell was so great and powerful it would be the last place to be taken. Rivendell is west of the Misty Mountains, most of Sauron's enemies are to the east of them, including Gondor and Lorien.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Except you ignore that his first goal was to gain the mastery of Eriador.

No I didn't, to get through where he wanted to go he and his army "ravaged as they went".

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You don't just leave a large force undefended at your back.

He didn't. You're trying to tell me that Sauron's purpose here was to go up north to siege Elrond at his new position because Elrond was his greatest threat. The text makes no explicit statement to that effect, such as this one in which he entered Eriador &, "turned north and made at once for Eregion" [UT, Bk. 2, ch. 4, p. 249] It is said however that the purpose of Sauron's siege was "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [p. 250]. The great General Turenne noted, "Make few sieges and give many battles. When once you have made your army superior to that of your enemy, by the number and quality of your troops, which you have nearly done already by the battle of Rocroi; when you are master of the open country, villages will be of as much service as the fortified towns; but it is thought much more honorable to take a fortress... If the King of Spain had spent as much money and men in forming armies, as he has spent in making sieges and fortresses, he would now be the most powerful monarch in the world." [Marshall Turenne, ch. 5] Sauron's siege was meant to "contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [UT, bk2, ch. 4 p. 250] while he cleared a path through Eriador to get the Rings from Lindon.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

says he ravaged the lands first as he was heading North to Rivendell

Yes, good job clearing the lands as you march ahead doing as the text says, "Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador" [UT, p. 250] Where does it say he headed "north to Rivendell"?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

whilst ignoring his biggest threat in the area

Where is it said that Elrond was his biggest threat, the very same threat he could have wiped out, "He would indeed have been overwhelmed" [p. 250]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

it takes him 3 years to eventually invade Lindon

I don't know that. What I do know is that he came to the borders of Lindon where he "reached the line of the River Lhûn... Gil-galad and the Númenóreans were holding the Lhûn in desperate defence of the Grey Havens, when in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." [UT, p. 250-51] Tell me where it is that you learned of Sauron actually invading Lindon.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

you seem to think it would have happened at the drop of the hat.

No I don't. Pay attention. What I do think is that Sauron left, "a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear." [p.250] That was the purpose of the siege. I do not think the siege's purpose was to overrun Rivendell. I think "Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon" [250] which is why he ravaged its lands to gain the mastery in it, as he moved north then west to clear the way to Lindon.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Sauron obviously got impatient with the siege and tried to take Lindon immediately.

If you lay a siege to take a city, town, fortress or whatever and get impatient, you don't leave it to move on. Your impatience would actually impel you to storm the place under siege prematurely resulting in a foolish loss of men while the place is still untaken. That is one of the dangers of a siege. Again, unlike your projecting onto me the idea that Sauron would have taken Rivendell "at the drop of the hat", I think that the siege was meant "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [p. 250]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

open battle is not the same as defending a strong hold out

[sarcasm]Yes and any man of war worth his salt wastes his time trying to take a place by laying siege to it when his object is something else.[sarcasm] There are only 2 ways of fighting, directly and indirectly, the later of which has inexhaustible methods and these need not apply to being holed up in some fortress. Whether on the high ground, in Rivendell, or at some narrow defile if Sauron's purpose was to destroy Elrond it would have been done. It took him 2 years to lay Eregion waste; you're going to tell me he was only going to give up after one year of besieging Imladris while when he was at Eregion he had enemies at his back?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You have Sauron spending years fighting small groups of Elves, whilst he ignored his biggest threat

Could you please provide the references, all if possible, where Elrond is referred to ever as Sauron's biggest threat? Thank you.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Where is it implied that Gil-galad was greater than Glorfindel at the fall of Gondolin?

?????????????????? Explain yourself. I don't get it.

On another note, as you will get into later, Galadriel is said to be with her uncle, "the greatest of the Eldar in Valinor" which would include Glorfindel, assuming he was born at this point. So whether in Gondolin or in Aman she was the greater of the 2.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

When you face a foe like a Balrog it is always a spiritual battle as well as a physical one

Hmmm.... interesting. So with one Maia it's a spiritual battle [of course in your defense of Glorfindel you have to bring this up] as well, but with the other [Gil-galad] it is not. Didn't Sauron basically fight Finrod with magic [Lay of Leithian 2165-2222]? Why all of a sudden the a foe of the same class who has been known to employ spells and the like in his battles is stripped of his ways and means when he fights Gil-galad and Elendil?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

the difference between Glorfindel and Ecthelion is that Glorfindel was then made much more powerful on his return

The same would apply to Ecthelion had he returned. The reborn, "are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies and being more patient of griefs." [MR, p. 222] So the difference is that one came back to M-E. If both had come back Ecthelion too should have been bolstered. Do you deny this? Otherwise what do you mean by, "the difference between Glorfindel and Ecthelion is that Glorfindel was then made much more powerful on his return"?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You ignore that Glorfindel already one of the most powerful elves

No I didn't. Where did I say he was not one of the stronger Elves? How am I saying he is not one of the more powerful Elves? Projecting again are you? Let's make a deal. You stop saying that I said things I didn't, unless you quote me, and I won't have to tell you that you're lying.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Other elves have tried and failed including Feanor and Fingon amongst others.

Both were JUMPED. Come on man are you serious? Let me quote the passages for you as you seem to be lost on this.

"At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe... and they beat him into the dust with their maces" [Sil., ch. 20, p. 236]

"Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds... the Balrogs left him and departed to Angband." [Sil., ch. 13, p. 125]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It's you who are trying to downplay the help that Elendil gave.

Lies. I said, "Elendil is more likely than not a beast of a Man". I was saying that Sauron got beat twice, once by Luthien and Huan and the other by Gil-galad and Elendil. I brought Luthien up since you hold her, as far as I know, to be the strongest Elf. So when Gil-galad did it against a bolstered Sauron he should not be belittled for doing so. Sure he and Elendil died but in the end they destroyed Sauron's body. I therefore give Gil-galad credit for the destruction of Sauron, whether he had help in doing so, just as Luthien did in beating him, or not.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Luthien did a little more than just beat Sauron.

She sure did.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Feanor was not alone and there were only ever around 5 Balrogs ever.

Somewhere between 3 and 7. In any case the Balrogs were not alone either when they attacked Fëanor and his small band.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Those are from an early text and things have been rewritten.

So you don't except the Silmarillion, fair enough.

"Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvatar." [Sil, p. 112] <- a text you reject.

"This child is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar." [MR, Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, p. 240]

"Aule nameth Feanor the greatest of the Eldar, and in potency that is true." [247]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Luthien had unmatched power since she was able to put ALL the Balrogs and Morgoth to sleep

Yes she slept them to death and to defeat.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Exactly.

Surely. Then, now, show me where I said defeating someone means you are of equal power. Thanks.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Glorfindel obviously did not remain

So he did not stay from the 2nd to the 3rd Age? Go read the books.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

he died and had to return

But he still stayed after the 2nd Age when he returned. So he in fact did remain in M-E, or was he not in M-E in the 3rd Age?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

All through out LOTR Glorfindel is used as an example of the power of an elf.

This has nothing to do with him remaining in M-E after the 2nd Age into the 3rd. According to you he did not remain. If he did not remain after the 2nd Age he was not in M-E in the 3rd Age, or he left M-E at the end of the 2nd Age and returned with Gandalf and the Istari in the 3rd Age. You say, "Glorfindel is used as an example of the power of an elf" I would say not the only one.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Glorfindel is the elf noted for being the one to storm the black gates

No he isn't. Talk about a misrepresentation of the text. You can quote the part you are talking about in full so everyone can see how off you are on this remark. You will find that piece of text in FotR, bk.2, ch. 3, p. 331.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

but he did have the greater rank

So now you talk about rank, when before the leader had to do with being the most powerful. Which is it? Only where Glorfindel is involved and he is the ranking officer is he the most powerful, however, when anyone else like Elrond has leadership it's based on rank.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yes, because most of the elves are dead and how can he have 'remained' if he died and returned?

Because he returned early in the 2nd Age and stayed throughout the 3rd, thus remaining in M-E after the 2nd Age.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It's not logically possible to remain if you die and go back to Aman.

Well that was in the First Age. He did not remain in the FA because he died and returned in the 2nd. But he did remain in M-E after the 2nd Age and for most of the 2nd.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

He is an Elf because the Half-elven were given a choice, ""At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind" And those 2 fates were that of Men or of Elves. Elrond chose "to be of Elven-kind", whether you think so or not. In Letter #153 Tolkien says,

"the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's FATE they will SHARE. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race... Elrond chose to be AMONG THE ELVES. His children- with a renewed Elvish strain... have to make their choices... The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told,: they delay their choice and remain for a while."

Please point to me where he is called an Elf? I have given you direct quotes showing that Elrond and Arwen are not elves. Look at the quotes you are providing. Elrond choose to be AMONG the Elves, not that he chose to be an Elf. Elrond remained an immortal Half-elven just as Elros remained a mortal Half-elf.

Notice that Elrond's is only 'as noble and fair in face as an elf-lord', because he is similar, but not an elf.

Sure it does. This was what the whole problem on Númenor was. They wanted to change their fate from that of Men, which the Half-elven Elros chose, to that of Elves, which the Half-elven Elrond chose. He is referred to as Half-elven because of his ancestry, "in them alone the line of heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants." [App. A] Are those of Elven-kind Elves or not? What are they Dwarf, Man, Orc, Troll, Hobbit?

No changing your destiny after death does not change what you are. Anymore than it would be correct to say that Luthien was now a WOMAN in the sense she was a female of the Race of Men. I have provided quotes several times here showing that Elrond was never called an elf so I am going to leave it there. Choose to ignore them if you wish.

He was Peredhel because of his ancestry but he clearly chose, as his brother was given leave to do, to choose a fate that of Elves or of Men. He chose that of Elves and his brother that of Men. So even though by ancestry they were both Half-elven, the one became a Man, the other an Elf. He chose the fate of the Elves, which his brother's direct descendants wanted, but they had the fate of Men which their direct ancestor Elros chose. Was Elros a Man having chosen the fate of Men? Was Elrond an Elf having chose the fate of Elves? To you no because they were Half-elven. I say yes, but they were referred to as Half-elven due to their ancestry, not because one was not an Elf and the other not a Man.

He had the right to choose his fate, but not change what he was. He remained a Half-Elf.

That depends on if they had chosen their fate yet which I do not think they had nor had Arwen. It is said, "to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed" [App. A] To be as Elves or as Men, one Doom or the other. Your assumption is that when Elrond's sons are mentioned with Legolas that they had chosen their fate at that time, "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told,: they delay their choice and remain for a while." [Letter #153]. Do you know this? If so please explain. In PoM-E it is said, "These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind." It seems in this case their choice had to be made before a certain point. Do you know of a point in the 3rd Age when they decided to choose their fate so that you could say "notice how the Sons of Elrond are mentioned separately from Legolas the Elf" implying that they either did not choose the fate of Elves, or that if they had they were still not Elves.

No it does not, because Elrond is given similar description. Elrond himself is only compared to the Elves. Abandoning your elvish rights as Tolkien says did not make Luthien anything other than an Elf. The Half-Elven would remain Half-elves no matter what their fate was.

Yet still a Man never-the-less. The Elven strain in Men certainly uplifted the race of Men, "The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race" [Letter#153], but they were still Men, the Doom of Men was theirs because they were Men. Elros though Half-elven due to his ancestry, was a Man.

You are ignoring what Tolkien. Elros was a Half-elf, but mortal. Luthien was a mortal Elf, Tuor an immortal man and Elrond and immortal Half-elf.

Difference aside, was this not the same group that Sauron was about to destroy before he left the pursuit of them?

Are you seriously comparing a pitched battle in the open with defending a secure fortress? Do you realise how long it took to capture certain cities?

Please keep geography in mind when you make such declarations lest someone suppose that Rivendell was so great and powerful it would be the last place to be taken. Rivendell is west of the Misty Mountains, most of Sauron's enemies are to the east of them, including Gondor and Lorien.

Does not matter we are told that it would be one if not the very last place to fall due to the power that resides there, but you don't seem to be keen on actually going by what Tolkien tells us.

'Is Rivendell safe?'
'Yes at present until all else is conquered.'

No I didn't, to get through where he wanted to go he and his army "ravaged as they went".

Yes and where they wanted to go was Rivendell. It does not take 3 years to ravage a small group of Elves. You have not come up with a valid reason to what Sauron was doing.

He didn't. You're trying to tell me that Sauron's purpose here was to go up north to siege Elrond at his new position because Elrond was his greatest threat. The text makes no explicit statement to that effect, such as this one in which he entered Eriador &, "turned north and made at once for Eregion" [UT, Bk. 2, ch. 4, p. 249] It is said however that the purpose of Sauron's siege was "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [p. 250]. The great General Turenne noted, "Make few sieges and give many battles. When once you have made your army superior to that of your enemy, by the number and quality of your troops, which you have nearly done already by the battle of Rocroi; when you are master of the open country, villages will be of as much service as the fortified towns; but it is thought much more honorable to take a fortress... If the King of Spain had spent as much money and men in forming armies, as he has spent in making sieges and fortresses, he would now be the most powerful monarch in the world." [Marshall Turenne, ch. 5] Sauron's siege was meant to "contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [UT, bk2, ch. 4 p. 250] while he cleared a path through Eriador to get the Rings from Lindon.

A better rule is never leave an army at your back. The text implies that Sauron was besieging Rivendell from the amount of time we know he spent in Eriador.

Yes, good job clearing the lands as you march ahead doing as the text says, "Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador" [UT, p. 250] Where does it say he headed "north to Rivendell"?

How do you gain the mastery of an area without defeating your enemies. How else could he have left a large portion of his forces at Imladris if he did not have it besieged?

Where is it said that Elrond was his biggest threat, the very same threat he could have wiped out, "He would indeed have been overwhelmed" [p. 250]

It's just common sense. You think the small bands of men he was facing were a greater threat than Elrond? Why do you think the siege of Baradur lasted so long?

I don't know that. What I do know is that he came to the borders of Lindon where he "reached the line of the River Lhûn... Gil-galad and the Númenóreans were holding the Lhûn in desperate defence of the Grey Havens, when in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." [UT, p. 250-51] Tell me where it is that you learned of Sauron actually invading Lindon.

The Lhun is the borders of Lindon, Sauron was invading when the Numenoreans drove him back.

No I don't. Pay attention. What I do think is that Sauron left, "a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear." [p.250] That was the purpose of the siege. I do not think the siege's purpose was to overrun Rivendell. I think "Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon" [250] which is why he ravaged its lands to gain the mastery in it, as he moved north then west to clear the way to Lindon.

So you do think Sauron took 3 years clearing up small groups of men? You also think that Sauron purposely weakened his chances of taking Lindon by leaving half his army behind with no attempts to take Imladris.

If you lay a siege to take a city, town, fortress or whatever and get impatient, you don't leave it to move on. Your impatience would actually impel you to storm the place under siege prematurely resulting in a foolish loss of men while the place is still untaken. That is one of the dangers of a siege. Again, unlike your projecting onto me the idea that Sauron would have taken Rivendell "at the drop of the hat", I think that the siege was meant "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [p. 250]

You think Sauron had not tried taking Rivendell? Rivendell was not some small castle, but an enchanted valley well capable of sustaining the army. Sauron was not trying to starve them out, but break through. He yet could not break through so he decided to get the Rings of Power first.

[sarcasm]Yes and any man of war worth his salt wastes his time trying to take a place by laying siege to it when his object is something else.[sarcasm] There are only 2 ways of fighting, directly and indirectly, the later of which has inexhaustible methods and these need not apply to being holed up in some fortress. Whether on the high ground, in Rivendell, or at some narrow defile if Sauron's purpose was to destroy Elrond it would have been done. It took him 2 years to lay Eregion waste; you're going to tell me he was only going to give up after one year of besieging Imladris while when he was at Eregion he had enemies at his back?

His actions in Eregion reveal Sauron's mind. He was not happy to leave enemies at his back, but attempted to take Moria. He could not get in and only then did he move on. You now want Sauron to abandon the tactics he employed prior and suddenly leave Rivendell unmolested. Ultimately not taking Rivendell almost cost him his life. It was being caught in the pincer that led to him narrowly escaping. Ironically history repeated itself with the Witch King of Angmar. He too failed to take Rivendell and was caught between a hammer and an anvil.

Could you please provide the references, all if possible, where Elrond is referred to ever as Sauron's biggest threat? Thank you.

I said in Eriador. No quote is needed unless you truly believe that groups of men and small bands of elves were a bigger threat than Elrond.

?????????????????? Explain yourself. I don't get it.

On another note, as you will get into later, Galadriel is said to be with her uncle, "the greatest of the Eldar in Valinor" which would include Glorfindel, assuming he was born at this point. So whether in Gondolin or in Aman she was the greater of the 2.

Greatest does not mean more powerful. Tolkein makes many distinctions between the two.

Hmmm.... interesting. So with one Maia it's a spiritual battle [of course in your defense of Glorfindel you have to bring this up] as well, but with the other [Gil-galad] it is not. Didn't Sauron basically fight Finrod with magic [Lay of Leithian 2165-2222]? Why all of a sudden the a foe of the same class who has been known to employ spells and the like in his battles is stripped of his ways and means when he fights Gil-galad and Elendil?

Of course when you encounter a Maia there is some part of the battle that takes place on a spiritual level. When you look into the eyes (the window to the soul) of a powerful opponent you are daunted. Having enough strength to resist this is vital before you can even think about engaging in a physical battle. Even Huan, undoubtedly greater than Sauron physically was daunted by his eyes.

The same would apply to Ecthelion had he returned. The reborn, "are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies and being more patient of griefs." [MR, p. 222] So the difference is that one came back to M-E. If both had come back Ecthelion too should have been bolstered. Do you deny this? Otherwise what do you mean by, "the difference between Glorfindel and Ecthelion is that Glorfindel was then made much more powerful on his return"?

Yes Ecthelion would be boosted, but not to the same extent as Glorfindel, because Glorfindel's sacrifice played a vital part in Earendil' survival.

'More important: Glorfindel had sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives from the wreck of Gondolin against a demon out of Thangorodrim, and so enabling Tuor and Idril daughter of Turgon and their child Earendil to escape, and seek refuge in the Mouth of Sirion. Though he could not have known the importance of this ( and would have defended them had they been fugitives of any rank) this deed was of vital importance to the designs of the Valar.'-POME

Glorfindel unwillingly had played a vital part in saving ME and therefore was rewarded.

No I didn't. Where did I say he was not one of the stronger Elves? How am I saying he is not one of the more powerful Elves? Projecting again are you? Let's make a deal. You stop saying that I said things I didn't, unless you quote me, and I won't have to tell you that you're lying.

Well if he was one of the stronger elves already close in power to the strongest and then had his powers GREATLY enhanced it's no wonder he becomes the strongest of the Elves alive.

Both were JUMPED. Come on man are you serious? Let me quote the passages for you as you seem to be lost on this.

"At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe... and they beat him into the dust with their maces" [Sil., ch. 20, p. 236]

"Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds... the Balrogs left him and departed to Angband." [Sil., ch. 13, p. 125]

Feanor was not jumped and had companions. He was dying of his wounds. Fingon fought valiantly, but at best was at a stalemate.

Lies. I said, "Elendil is more likely than not a beast of a Man". I was saying that Sauron got beat twice, once by Luthien and Huan and the other by Gil-galad and Elendil. I brought Luthien up since you hold her, as far as I know, to be the strongest Elf. So when Gil-galad did it against a bolstered Sauron he should not be belittled for doing so. Sure he and Elendil died but in the end they destroyed Sauron's body. I therefore give Gil-galad credit for the destruction of Sauron, whether he had help in doing so, just as Luthien did in beating him, or not.

Calling Elendil 'a beast of a Man' is not putting things into their correct perspective. Elendil was a highly capable man equal to the princes of the Noldor.

Somewhere between 3 and 7. In any case the Balrogs were not alone either when they attacked Fëanor and his small band.

And as you said either was Feanor. In the end he was defeated and unable to kill them.

So you don't except the Silmarillion, fair enough.

"Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvatar." [Sil, p. 112] <- a text you reject.

"This child is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar." [MR, Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, p. 240]

"Aule nameth Feanor the greatest of the Eldar, and in potency that is true." [247]

In later writings Luthien is the greatest of the Eldar and as mentioned previously, greatest has little to do with innate power. Mightiest is the word Tolkien uses for this.

In his latest works there is no doubt, who i the greatest of the Eldar.

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves. -POME
[QUOTE]
Yes she slept them to death and to defeat.[/QUOTE}
Yes her and Beren accomplished what Feanor, his sons and the entire army of the Noldor could not do. She took a Silmaril from Morgoth.

So he did not stay from the 2nd to the 3rd Age? Go read the books.

Twisting Tolkien's words to try and fit your meaning is not going to help. Glorfindel was in no way one of the elves that remained after the War of Wrath. He died prior to it and only came later as an emissary to help in the wars against Sauron.

But he still stayed after the 2nd Age when he returned. So he in fact did remain in M-E, or was he not in M-E in the 3rd Age?

You do realise that up until very late that Glorfindel was supposed to have returned in the 3rd Age? Ignoring that point from the context Tolkien was not talking about rehoused Elves, sent back with the power of Olorin.

This has nothing to do with him remaining in M-E after the 2nd Age into the 3rd. According to you he did not remain. If he did not remain after the 2nd Age he was not in M-E in the 3rd Age, or he left M-E at the end of the 2nd Age and returned with Gandalf and the Istari in the 3rd Age. You say, "Glorfindel is used as an example of the power of an elf" I would say not the only one.

Actually every time Gandalf wants to give an illustration of a powerful elf he brings up Glorfindel. As for his remaining you realise that at that point Glorfindel had only returned in the 3rd age with the Istari.

Even very late on Tolkien still had Glorfindel returning at in the 3rd Age after spending 'from the First Age, through to the Second Age to the end of the First millennium of the Third Age; before he returned to Middle Earth.'-POME

No he isn't. Talk about a misrepresentation of the text. You can quote the part you are talking about in full so everyone can see how off you are on this remark. You will find that piece of text in FotR, bk.2, ch. 3, p. 331.

I did not mean he could storm the Black Gate, because the text obviously states that not even Glorfindel could do this, but it's Glorfindel used, because he is the most powerful elf around.

'and was one (the most powerful one it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell'-POME

So now you talk about rank, when before the leader had to do with being the most powerful. Which is it? Only where Glorfindel is involved and he is the ranking officer is he the most powerful, however, when anyone else like Elrond has leadership it's based on rank.

It's a mixture of both and with Tolkien the two were usually entwined. More often than not the greatest captain is also the one with the highest rank. There are some exceptions like with Maeglin, but for the majority of the time it will be true like with Fingolfin, Fingon, Elendil, Aragorn etc

Because he returned early in the 2nd Age and stayed throughout the 3rd, thus remaining in M-E after the 2nd Age.

This has been explained, but it was obvious from the time of the quote and Glorfindel's very unique situation he was not included amongst them.

Well that was in the First Age. He did not remain in the FA because he died and returned in the 2nd. But he did remain in M-E after the 2nd Age and for most of the 2nd.

AS I have said this was not the case at the time Tolkien wrote the other note. Nor have you mentioned anything about Glorfindel having power close to Olorin. Glorfindel was a special case alongide the Istari and was sent to battle Sauron.

He had an 'air of special power and sanctity' around him.

It's for this reason we can understand 'why Glorfindel seems so powerful a figure and almost 'angelic'.

'and in companionship with the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate... his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by self-sacrifice.'

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Please point to me where he is called an Elf?...<--snip-->...'and in companionship with the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate... his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by self-sacrifice.'

Shelob was more beautiful than Arwen. Treebeard was more beautiful than Shelob, and Galadriel smelled of Dwarves, so that made her short. Maia can be smelled into Shelobs if Ungoliant did have a bottom to her bottomless greed. So, Shelob must have been more bottomless (therefore beautiful) than Arwen.

On beauty and Tolkien *rubs temples* - Someone was always 'fairer' somehow, and then 'fairest' and 'wisest' and lordliest until the lord of the lordliest was unlordified and unlovliest. I mean, Feanor and Galadriel were unfriends forever (Unfinished Tales, I *roared* with laughter when I saw that, but I thought Facebook invented that word) - so it all gets pretty confusing.

After reading 100, billion pages about Feanor being the 'every-thing-est', only today, some 30 years later, I go and find all this stuff about Galadriel now being Feanor's rival -- as the 'everything-est' but in different areas.

I highly don't recommend getting stuck on the '-estest' or '-ighty-est' or best-est-test-est- *screams* because now Arwen is the 'fairest' but I thought it was Luthien. Then I saw Galadriel was that--so I got so confused, that I decided that Shelob was the fairest. It's not fair, really, that spiders should be so discriminated against. I'm sure Shelob would rank fairly high in the arachnid world's equivalent of 'Miss Universe'

*screams*

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Please point to me where he is called an Elf?

It is said that he is an Elf, or of the Eldar.

"Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind" [RotK, App. A]

"Elrond chose to be among the Elves." [Letter #153]

"In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [Sil., ch. 24, p. 315]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I have given you direct quotes showing that Elrond and Arwen are not elves.

This is the quote you gave:

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."-Letter 345.

First of all, Arwen never chose to be an Elf, which makes your quote irrelevant. Secondly, the quote you gave about Arwen, who never chose to be an Elf, is not about Elrond NOT BEING an Elf. Try again please.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond choose to be AMONG the Elves, not that he chose to be an Elf. Elrond remained an immortal Half-elven just as Elros remained a mortal Half-elf.

Again, they were both Half-elven due to their descent, ""in them alone the line of heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants." [App. A] However, since they were given a choice to choose their doom, that of Men or of Elves, Elrond chose that of Elven-kind and Elros that of Man-kind. Here's an interesting passage to that effect about the effect the choice had on the Half-elven, at least in the case of Elros:

"In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the 'seeking else-whither,' as the Eldar called it, the 'weariness' or desire to depart from the world." [UT, The Line of Elros, Part ll, ch. 3, p. 235, note 1]

In effect, Elros became a Man, and in like manner Elrond an Elf. Even still they were Half-elven due to their ancestry, they came from both Men and Elves, but they were given the choice to become either Man or Elf, and both chose one of these Dooms or Fates.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Notice that Elrond's is only 'as noble and fair in face as an elf-lord', because he is similar, but not an elf.

Although you are quoting texts from the Hobbit that are written before LotR was conceived, if you want to be fair, Elrond is given various qualities in that quote, even of Dwarves and of Summer.

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer." [The Hobbit, ch. 3, p. 51]

In the History of the Hobbit, by John Ratliff it is said,

"The reference only two chapters before to Beren and Lúthien’s activities of less than a century ago – a mere nothing in the elvish scheme of things – and the very presence of Elrond himself, who is certainly not described as an elf (at the end of the chapter Elrond, the hobbit, the wizard, and the dwarves go outside ‘to see the elves’ dance and sing) and seems not to have been conceived of as an immortal or even particularly long-lived at this point, argues against a long gap in time between Gondolin’s fall and Mr. Baggins’ adventure... By that scheme, Mr. Baggins’ unexpected party would have occurred no more than 14 years after the fall of Thangorodrim, which is clearly exceedingly improbable. These difficulties probably led to Tolkien’s deletion of the references to Beren and Lúthien’s adventure, which together with Elrond’s undefined status and nature enable Gondolin and its ruin to recede into the distant, legendary past." [ch. 3 Rivendell]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No changing your destiny after death does not change what you are.

I have no idea what this has to do with the quoted portion of my text you responded to. I never even made mention of anyone changing their destiny after death.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

He had the right to choose his fate, but not change what he was. He remained a Half-Elf.

He remained Half-elven by ancestry, but he became an Elf when he chose his Doom or Fate, just as Elros became a Man after he chose his Fate.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond himself is only compared to the Elves.

Elrond is said to be an Elf.

"In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar" [Sil., ch. 24, p. 315]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elros was a Half-elf, but mortal.

Half-elven by ancestry, but a Man.

"In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the “seeking else-whither,” as the Eldar called it, the “weariness” or desire to depart from the world." [UT, The Line of Elros, Part ll, ch. 3, p. 235, note 1]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Are you seriously comparing a pitched battle in the open with defending a secure fortress?

No, you're saying I am, nothing new there.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Do you realise how long it took to capture certain cities?

Like Prato in 1512? What mean you?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Does not matter

Yes it does, so I repeat, "Please keep geography in mind when you make such declarations lest someone suppose that Rivendell was so great and powerful it would be the last place to be taken. Rivendell is west of the Misty Mountains, most of Sauron's enemies are to the east of them, including Gondor and Lorien."

Originally Posted by cellurdur

the very last place to fall due to the power that resides there

Where? Quotes please. It is said, "and elsewhere other powers still dwell. There is power too, of another kind, in the Shire. But all such places will soon become islands under siege" [FotR, bk. 2, ch. 1, p. 269] There is no mention of Rivendell standing last due to its power.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You have not come up with a valid reason to what Sauron was doing.

Sauron was marching his way across Eriador to "take Lindon, where he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings" [UT, part ll, ch. 4] Though he "attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador" as he made his way from the south of Eriador, his "immediate purpose was to take Lindon" which was basically what he was on his way to doing while clearing a path and "ravaging as he went".

Originally Posted by cellurdur

A better rule is never leave an army at your back.

Which is why he left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] He was not going to sit there and focus all his energies on a siege of Rivendell when "his immediate purpose was to take Lindon".

Originally Posted by cellurdur

How else could he have left a large portion of his forces at Imladris if he did not have it besieged?

Sauron left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] The siege was not laid to overrun Rivendell. So, I'm not saying he did not leave a siege but rather he left, "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." You're saying he left it to overrun Rivendell, I'm saying he left it "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear."

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Why do you think the siege of Baradur lasted so long?

Because their immediate and main purpose was to take out Sauron, who was there.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Lhun is the borders of Lindon

Which is not the same as "it takes him 3 years to eventually invade Lindon". Fighting on the borders of Lindon is not invading Lindon. Again I ask you where it is that you learned of Sauron actually invading Lindon. Sauron, "reached the line of the River Lhûn... Gil-galad and the Númenóreans were holding the Lhûn in desperate defence of the Grey Havens, when in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." [UT, p. 250-51] Lindon was across the river. He did not invade Lindon.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You also think that Sauron purposely weakened his chances of taking Lindon by leaving half his army behind with no attempts to take Imladris.

It is said, "in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." This even with a weakened force that Sauron brought to get the Rings. That was his immediate purpose, and the reason he left another force besieging Rivendell was "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] not to take over Rivendell. Show me where it says the purpose of the siege was otherwise.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You think Sauron had not tried taking Rivendell?

Sauron left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] not to take Rivendell.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Rivendell was not some small castle, but an enchanted valley well capable of sustaining the army. Sauron was not trying to starve them out, but break through. He yet could not break through so he decided to get the Rings of Power first.

Sauron left "a strong detachment to contain Elrond to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear." [UT, part ll, ch. 4, p. 250] since "his "immediate purpose was to take Lindon".

Originally Posted by cellurdur

His actions in Eregion reveal Sauron's mind.

To take the Rings.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Greatest does not mean more powerful.

"This child is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar." [MR, Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, p. 240]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Of course when you encounter a Maia there is some part of the battle that takes place on a spiritual level. When you look into the eyes (the window to the soul) of a powerful opponent you are daunted. Having enough strength to resist this is vital before you can even think about engaging in a physical battle. Even Huan, undoubtedly greater than Sauron physically was daunted by his eyes.

I have no idea where you are going with this. You're bringing all this other stuff up when all I said was that Glorfindel was not the only Elf to slay a Maia. You don't need to defend so hard that he was a powerful Elf. I never denied he was. All I said was, "I'm not doubting Glorfindel's power. I'm just saying I don't know that he would be that one who is most powerful in Rivendell. It is certainly possible, but I do not know this." You're going on Glorfindel being the most powerful because of a text that says he "was one (the most powerful, it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell when the disquieting news reached Elrond that Gandlad had never reappeared to guide or protect the Ring-bearer." [POM-E, ch. 8] This indicates uncertainty through the use of "it would seem". I'm of the opinion that all this means is that even though Glorfindel is reborn there were still others of comparable power who were not reborn, so far as we know, who were sent out with him and it does not definitely mean he was the most powerful.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Fingon fought valiantly, but at best was at a stalemate.

How was it a stalemate when he got killed and Gothmog beat him? Do you know what stalemate means? Gothmog and the other Balrog won hence no stalemate. He was alone, they jumped him, Gothmog crushed his skull and they partied on his corpse.

"Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces" [Sil., ch. 20, p. 236]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Calling Elendil 'a beast of a Man' is not putting things into their correct perspective.

It most certainly does as it implies he was not a Man to be messed with, and if he was it was to your detriment.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

In later writings Luthien is the greatest of the Eldar and as mentioned previously, greatest has little to do with innate power.


Mightiest is the word Tolkien uses for this.

Luthien is the greatest due to her deeds with Beren and all the descendants of Luthien, whose line shall never fail as Legolas says, & "Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvatar." [Sil, p. 112]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves. -POME

This being a note appended to, "These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor" [POM-E, The Shibboleth of Feanor] in reference to Fëanor/Galadriel.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

[Yes her and Beren accomplished what Feanor, his sons and the entire army of the Noldor could not do. She took a Silmaril from Morgoth.

Beren took a Silmaril from Morgoth, not Luthien, "he drew forth the knife Angrist; and from the iron claws that held it he cut a Silmaril." [Sil., ch. 19, p. 219]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Glorfindel was in no way one of the elves that remained after the War of Wrath.

The quote was not about those who remained from the War of Wrath. In fact the quote comes several pages after we begin with, "Thus began the third Age of the World" [Sil., Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, p. 365] Glorfindel was one of the Elves who remained in M-E, and those who remained in M-E either were born there, or came from Aman as Galadriel and Glorfindel did [twice].

Originally Posted by cellurdur

You do realise that up until very late that Glorfindel was supposed to have returned in the 3rd Age?

You do realize that not only myself, but you, are taking the texts that have Glorfindel coming early in the 2nd Age? You're backed into a corner. Please don't squirm, work what we came to the party with. Let's be open and honest, you are consistently bringing up how Glorfindel played a huge part in the battle with Sauron in the 2nd Age where he came to aid Elrond. Or do you really want to drop all that to switch it all up and now only work with "up until very late that Glorfindel was supposed to have returned in the 3rd Age"? It's up to you buddy.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Ignoring that point from the context Tolkien was not talking about rehoused Elves, sent back with the power of Olorin.

Show me that the quote referred to Elves who remained after the War of Wrath exclusively.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Actually every time Gandalf wants to give an illustration of a powerful elf he brings up Glorfindel.

To Frodo who had met Glorfindel, correct? Also an audience only familiar with about 3 Elves by name in LotR until that point.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As for his remaining you realise that at that point Glorfindel had only returned in the 3rd age with the Istari.

So you're going to switch from his heroics and helping Elrond in the 2nd Age to he only arrived in the 3rd? Really? You're trying to confuse me more with your nonsense? In POM-E we have C.T. say,

"The second essay, Glorfindel II, is a text of five manuscript pages which undoubtedly followed the first at no long interval; but a slip of paper on which my father hastily set down some thoughts on the matter presumably came between them, since he said here that while Glorfindel might have come with Gandalf, 'it seems far more likely that he was sent in the crisis of the Second Age, when Sauron invaded Eriador, to assist Elrond, and that though not (yet) mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat he played a notable and heroic part in the war.' At the end of this note he wrote the words 'Numenorean ship', presumably indicating how Glorfindel might have crossed the Great Sea."

I believe you said in one of your posts, I'm not sure where I saw it, that you actually subscribe to this view, that he arrived in the 2nd Age to aid Elrond. Now you're switching it up.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I did not mean he could storm the Black Gate,

That is, however, what you said.

"Glorfindel is the elf noted for being the one to storm the black gates"

Originally Posted by cellurdur

it's Glorfindel used, because he is the most powerful elf around.

I'd say it's Glorfindel used because he is the Elf Frodo is familiar with, with whom his experience associates a great Elf to this point.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This has been explained, but it was obvious from the time of the quote and Glorfindel's very unique situation he was not included amongst them.

You're flip-flopping.

[Ivriniel]

*screams*

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

On beauty and Tolkien *rubs temples* - Someone was always 'fairer' somehow, and then 'fairest' and 'wisest' and lordliest until the lord of the lordliest was unlordified and unlovliest. I mean, Feanor and Galadriel were unfriends forever (Unfinished Tales, I *roared* with laughter when I saw that, but I thought Facebook invented that word) - so it all gets pretty confusing.

The superlatives are certainly there and made use of.

[Ivriniel]

Hi Belegorn and Celludur,

I don't want to get caught in any crossfire, but I was curious to understand what the 'core' of the debate is? I've read the stuff you've posted, and much of it makes sense.

But, some of it is Lobelia-Sackville-Bagginses's Lotho-lorien-dorenan-ish tra la la lally Goldberry cooks Lembas, but Lego-gimli sailed East over sea......

I'm pretty sure you're both on the same, basic page, that no-one disputes. That is, that whether you call the Peredhil Elves or Men or Meno-Level-Elves-o-Rama, Mandos catches 'em all when they get downed. And what seems to happen to the Peredhil (is that) their Choice allows their Spirit to be partitioned to either Fate of the Eldar or the Followers. That Mandos...thing....had very big halls and some folk turned left at the Junction that read "Firstborn" and others had to stand in the other immigration queue that read "The Followers--Stand here and wait to be called at the End of Time"

What makes an "Elf" an "Elf" and a "Man" a "Man"? When the genomes are all mixed up? The Half Elf is both-and-neither, I've always said. The body of Arwen, bearing Celebrian's parenthood, has more Elf than Man. I'm sure she looked very Elf-y but I'm sure she still might have grown a beard because she had some human blood.

Wait, I mean, that her children were Half Orcs if she married Shelob's Ungoliantified Unlight, web, thing, whatsit, that Morgoth was a bit weirded out about when The Silmarils ate Morgoth's big toe....

[cellurdur]

I began to reply Belegorn, but there is no real point, because you keep ignoring what' in the text. Elrond is called the Half-Elven so many times, but you refuse to accept it. There is no point continuing on this matter with you.

[Morthoron]

This is what I got out of the last debate:

Daffy Duck: Let's run through that again.

Bugs Bunny: Okay.

Bugs Bunny: [in a flat tone] Wouldja like to shoot me now or wait till you get home?

Daffy Duck: [flat tone] Shoot him now, shoot him now.

Bugs Bunny: [flat tone] You keep outta this. He doesn't hafta shoot you now.

Daffy Duck: [with sudden passion] Ha! That's it! Hold it right there!

Daffy Duck: [to audience] Pronoun trouble.

Daffy Duck: [to Bugs] It's not: "He doesn't have to shoot *you* now." It's: "He doesn't have to shoot *me* now." Well, I say he does have to shoot me now!

Daffy Duck: [to Elmer Fudd] So shoot me now!

[Elmer shoots him]

When, in actuality, if we lay aside all the pedantic semantics and hypothetical hurdles, we should follow this line of reasoning:

- So, logically--
- If she weighs the same as a duck...
- she's made of wood.
- And therefore?
- A witch!

Therefore, using this means of deduction in Middle-earth logic, I propose Elrond is made of wood, ergo he is an Ent.

Oh, don't thank me, I am always happy to assist in making Middle-earth meaningful.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Hi Belegorn and Celludur,

I don't want to get caught in any crossfire, but I was curious to understand what the 'core' of the debate is? I've read the stuff you've posted, and much of it makes sense.

But, some of it is Lobelia-Sackville-Bagginses's Lotho-lorien-dorenan-ish tra la la lally Goldberry cooks Lembas, but Lego-gimli sailed East over sea......

I'm pretty sure you're both on the same, basic page, that no-one disputes. That is, that whether you call the Peredhil Elves or Men or Meno-Level-Elves-o-Rama, Mandos catches 'em all when they get downed. And what seems to happen to the Peredhil (is that) their Choice allows their Spirit to be partitioned to either Fate of the Eldar or the Followers. That Mandos...thing....had very big halls and some folk turned left at the Junction that read "Firstborn" and others had to stand in the other immigration queue that read "The Followers--Stand here and wait to be called at the End of Time"

What makes an "Elf" an "Elf" and a "Man" a "Man"? When the genomes are all mixed up? The Half Elf is both-and-neither, I've always said. The body of Arwen, bearing Celebrian's parenthood, has more Elf than Man. I'm sure she looked very Elf-y but I'm sure she still might have grown a beard because she had some human blood.

Wait, I mean, that her children were Half Orcs if she married Shelob's Ungoliantified Unlight, web, thing, whatsit, that Morgoth was a bit weirded out about when The Silmarils ate Morgoth's big toe....

Belegorn will have to answer for himself why he thinks the matter is important.

As for it's not just a question of semantics to decide whether Elrond or Galadriel are more powerful. It's something, which runs through Tolkien's entire work. The Half-elven are neither elves nor men, but in reality a mixture of both. The mixed heritage they have leaves them with qualities unique to them and them alone.

For instance the Half-elven do not grow beards until very, very late in life like elves.
The Half-elven even as diluted as Aragorn have the ability to use 'magic' men do not.
At the same time even as Elvish Half-Elven as the Sons of Elrond are afraid of the shades of men, which Legolas is not.
The Half-elven even in the case of Elwing( who is 3/4 Elf/Maiar) grow up and have children much quicker.

There is a very real difference uniqueness to the Half-Elven, whether mortal or immortal which does not fit either Men or Elves.

This is before we get into how Tolkien always keeps the Elves separate from the Half-Elven in terms of language.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

For instance the Half-elven do not grow beards until very, very late in life like elves.

Please provide a direct quote from Tolkien. Which Half-elf grew a beard in the third age of their lives, or, better yet, which Half-elf even reached the third stage of life like Cirdan? Did Tolkien ever talk about Half-elven hairiness?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Half-elven even as diluted as Aragorn have the ability to use 'magic' men do not.

Aragorn possessed healing ability, not "magic" ability. This has to do with what Ioreth said: "The hands of the King are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known." We discussed this in another thread wherein there is a direct tie to historical English (and French) kings and queens who were believed to have healing ability based on their god-given right to the throne.

There is no basis to say that "Half-elven" blood is a prerequisite for healing, nor was it stated that Aragorn could perform magic. Again, on the Paths of the Dead Aragorn demanding the spirits to fulfill their vow has more to do with Aragorn being the rightful king and wielding the appropriate sword of Isildur. For instance, Elrond, even though he was Half-elven, could not wield Narsil/Anduril and command the dead.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

At the same time even as Elvish Half-Elven as the Sons of Elrond are afraid of the shades of men, which Legolas is not.

Again, please provide a direct quote that this is the case. The words never came out of Elrond's son's mouths, nor did Tolkien imply it. Legolas' fearlessness is contrasted to Gimli's fear. There is no mention of Elrohir or Elladan in that sequence.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Half-elven even in the case of Elwing( who is 3/4 Elf/Maiar) grow up and have children much quicker.

Quicker than whom? Are there Half-elven maturation charts you wish to share?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

There is a very real difference uniqueness to the Half-Elven, whether mortal or immortal which does not fit either Men or Elves.

This is before we get into how Tolkien always keeps the Elves separate from the Half-Elven in terms of language.

Not on the mortal side. Elros is described as Half-elven, but his descendants are not because they do not have the choice. Only those who must make the choice between Elf and Man are given that title. Just like Aragorn and Arwen's children would never be called Half-elven because Arwen had already renounced her elvishness.

Silly semantics aside, the term "Half-elf" is really is more a family title or honorific than a genomic designation, particularly once a choice as to which race is made: you are that race irrevocably; hence Eärendil chose to be an Elf (at the behest of Elwing, who also made the choice to be Elvish and are thereafter referred to as such), Elros was a mortal man, and Arwen was a mortal woman.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Please provide a direct quote from Tolkien. Which Half-elf grew a beard in the third age of their lives, or, better yet, which Half-elf even reached the third stage of life like Cirdan? Did Tolkien ever talk about Half-elven hairiness?

"In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above)."-UT

You will find that Tolkien wrote a lot about details some might consider insignificant.

Aragorn possessed healing ability, not "magic" ability. This has to do with what Ioreth said: "The hands of the King are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known." We discussed this in another thread wherein there is a direct tie to historical English (and French) kings and queens who were believed to have healing ability based on their god-given right to the throne.

There is no basis to say that "Half-elven" blood is a prerequisite for healing, nor was it stated that Aragorn could perform magic. Again, on the Paths of the Dead Aragorn demanding the spirits to fulfill their vow has more to do with Aragorn being the rightful king and wielding the appropriate sword of Isildur. For instance, Elrond, even though he was Half-elven, could not wield Narsil/Anduril and command the dead.

I know the links to the historical Kings being able to heal, but this goes back to the Kings being put their by God.

However, in LOTR the healing that Aragorn does is a mixture of science, hypnotism and 'magic'. Aragorn as a Child of Luthien certainly possessed 'magic' as did the other descendants of Elros.

Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such.
-Letter 155

There you have it above. 'Magic' was not something that Men could posses.

Aragorn's 'healing'might be regarded as 'magical', or at least ablend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science;while A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'.
-Letter 155

So we can see 'magic' was involved (along with other things) in Aragorn's healing and this comes from his divine heritage.

Again, please provide a direct quote that this is the case. The words never came out of Elrond's son's mouths, nor did Tolkien imply it. Legolas' fearlessness is contrasted to Gimli's fear. There is no mention of Elrohir or Elladan in that sequence.

Actually there is. Only Legolas remained without fear out of the company.

The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror.-LOTR

Legolas alone amongst the company had no fear, because he was a pure elf.

Quicker than whom? Are there Half-elven maturation charts you wish to share?

Yes there are. Have you not looked at the dates, that Earendil, Elwing etc conceive and have children? Now compare that with the elves, who usually only reached maturity at 50. All

Not on the mortal side. Elros is described as Half-elven, but his descendants are not because they do not have the choice. Only those who must make the choice between Elf and Man are given that title. Just like Aragorn and Arwen's children would never be called Half-elven because Arwen had already renounced her elvishness.

Not true, because IF the case of Imrazor and Mithrellas is true then there child would be Half-elven and never given a choice. There is no record of Dior having a choice, but he was the first of the Peredhil.

Silly semantics aside, the term "Half-elf" is really is more a family title or honorific than a genomic designation, particularly once a choice as to which race is made: you are that race irrevocably; hence Eärendil chose to be an Elf (at the behest of Elwing, who also made the choice to be Elvish and are thereafter referred to as such), Elros was a mortal man, and Arwen was a mortal woman.

Again they Half-Elven are not choosing what race they are, because they remain Half-Elven. Nothing changed in Elrond and Elros after they made their choices. Their bodies and abilities remained the same.

Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the "seeking elsewhither," as the Eldar called it, the "weariness" or desire to depart from the world.

Half-elf is not just a family term, but a description of what he is. Elrond is never referred to as an Elf Lord and either are his sons, but instead they are compared to Elf Lords. Elrond is even left as an Elf-Friend in the Hobbit.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

"In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above)."-UT

You will find that Tolkien wrote a lot about details some might consider insignificant.

This is not specific to the Half-elven, and could include any number of Numenoreans related, however indirectly, to Elros (as it was to heirs of Dol-Amroth). You made this statement:

For instance the Half-elven do not grow beards until very, very late in life like elves.

Where is that statement? It is not in the quote you provided, therefore, you made it up.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I know the links to the historical Kings being able to heal, but this goes back to the Kings being put their by God.

However, in LOTR the healing that Aragorn does is a mixture of science, hypnotism and 'magic'. Aragorn as a Child of Luthien certainly possessed 'magic' as did the other descendants of Elros.

Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such.
-Letter 155

There you have it above. 'Magic' was not something that Men could posses.

Aragorn's 'healing'might be regarded as 'magical', or at least ablend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science;while A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'.
-Letter 155

So we can see 'magic' was involved (along with other things) in Aragorn's healing and this comes from his divine heritage.

Meh, I'll give you that one. Good research. However, Tolkien equivocates and uses such words as "might" be regarded as magical, and "in theory" reported by unscientific hobbits. Tolkien is equally ambiguous regarding "magical" properties supposedly unattainable in Men. For instance, he also states the Mouth of Sauron learned "great sorcery" under the tutelage of Sauron. There is no equivocation from Tolkien that he was unable to perform the Dark Arts; in fact, to say MoS learned "great sorcery" clearly shows he wasn't playing at parlor tricks.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yes there are. Have you not looked at the dates, that Earendil, Elwing etc conceive and have children? Now compare that with the elves, who usually only reached maturity at 50. All

Even you use the word "usually". There are only generalizations that cannot be applied across the board, particularly in times of terrific war and strife when customs bend to reality. Earendil and Elwing lived in a time of great upheaval, and they were both 29 when Elros and Elrond were born -- I don't see that as being an immature age, do you? And the Elvish mother Idril didn't bicker about customs, did she? Besides, mortals can and have given it a go regarding childbirth as soon as puberty hits at 11 or 12.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Not true, because IF the case of Imrazor and Mithrellas is true then there child would be Half-elven and never given a choice. There is no record of Dior having a choice, but he was the first of the Peredhil.

Not true? Ummm...sorry, we must be reading a different book. Elros' descendants were not Half-elven, and neither were Aragorn's. The direct line of Earendil and Elwing were given the choice (Given that Luthien made a choice of mortality, it seems likely that Dior might also have that gift, but he died young), and once a choice was made, like in Arwen's case, the offspring are no longer Half-elven, but mortal and unable to make a choice. Obviously, the offspring of Imrazor and Mithrellas were mortal without benefit of the Half-elven choice, just as Elros offspring were mortal and not "Half-elven". Again, the term is titular to the line of Earendil until a choice of mortality is made.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Again they Half-Elven are not choosing what race they are, because they remain Half-Elven. Nothing changed in Elrond and Elros after they made their choices. Their bodies and abilities remained the same.

Did they remain the same? I would suggest they did not remain the same, or at least Elros didn't. Elros could no longer produce Half-elven children, while Elrond could. Obviously, Eru the Galactic Geneticist fiddled with their chromosomes. Earendil and Elwing chose to be Elves, per Tolkien, just as Elrond did.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Half-elf is not just a family term, but a description of what he is. Elrond is never referred to as an Elf Lord and either are his sons, but instead they are compared to Elf Lords. Elrond is even left as an Elf-Friend in the Hobbit.

Is Elrond immortal (having lived over 6500 years)? Check. Does he possess an Elven Ring? Check. Is he the master over all the Elves (including Glorfindel) at Rivendell? Check. Can he command the waters at the Ford of Bruinen? Check. Does he leave for the Undying Lands at the end of the story? Check. Is he, per Tolkien, parted from his daughter Arwen, who chose to be mortal, until the end of time? Check.

If it quacks like a duck, it is not a semantic piece of wood. And please don't refer to The Hobbit for canonical references.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Hi Belegorn and Celludur,

I don't want to get caught in any crossfire, but I was curious to understand what the 'core' of the debate is?

There are several things.

(1) Is Elrond, or any of the Peredhel, Elves or not due to their title "Half-elven".

(2) Is Glorfindel the strongest Elf in M-E, especially since he is reborn.

(3) Did Sauron make a serious attempt to invade Rivendell.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

because you keep ignoring what' in the text.

Maybe, but I'm not so sure of course. For example you claim I ignore the text, but you told me, "I have given you direct quotes showing that Elrond and Arwen are not elves." as it relates to the quote below.

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."-Letter 345.

This piece of text, as I told you, is irrelevant. For one I never claimed Arwen [and I know of this because she never chose to become an Elf] was an Elf and for another this text does not even make your case that Elrond is not an Elf.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond is called the Half-Elven so many times, but you refuse to accept it.

I have not denied that he was called Half-elven, "they were both Half-elven due to their descent", and "Even still they were Half-elven due to their ancestry" for instance. What I do not except is that because they are Half-elven, that in their choice to choose a Doom they did not become either Elf or Man. I showed you a text that showed how after Elros made his choice he became a Man.

"In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the “seeking else-whither,” as the Eldar called it, the “weariness” or desire to depart from the world." [UT, The Line of Elros, Part ll, ch. 3, p. 235, note 1]

[Mithalwen]

I don't see why Dior would get a choice. He was born to two mortals ans so woud have been mortal. Like the offspring of Elros. He married an elf of course and their children were therefore halfelven, unless an unrecorded exception was made he would have shared the doom of men. However I would class Elrond as an elf comparable to the children of a Japanese friend who have an English father. Half and half by ethnicity but fully British by nationality, though they had the option of taking Japanese nationality up to age 18.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

There are several things.

(1) Is Elrond, or any of the Peredhel, Elves or not due to their title "Half-elven".

(2) Is Glorfindel the strongest Elf in M-E, especially since he is reborn.

(3) Did Sauron make a serious attempt to invade Rivendell.

I'm gunna add some info. Now, remember bois/guyz/woman/glaz - it's really all just tralla Lalla Feanor unfriended Galad-goliant because Unlight is Light with an 'un' and Tolkien loved Un-lordifying-lally lembo lembas and doin' funny things with words.....he was a word smith, unlike the Gwaith-i-Mirdain, who were just naughty Elves workin' with the resident bad boi, Annatar, and Tolkien loved 'un' doing words with an 'un'

Okay:

to 1:

1. Aren't they just the Pereldar or Peredhil? Elf blended with Man - and so, I've always said, a synergy race "both and neither", and so, at times beyond either, whilst also being less than either - oh my god, I'm about to break into song! Would we have called Luthien a 'man'? Coz she died a mortal life? Um--if she had a beard, I'd have thought about it. Not sure she came back with one when those interfering busy bodies, the Valar, shunted her and Beren back to life. She, no doubt, still looked "elfy" (well actually, she was part Maia, yeah ), but Mandos gave her another Passport, for the Edain Immigration cue, so that she could hang out with Beren in the Halls til the end of days? This all says to me that there were 'rules' about the Spirit and where it went, that, somehow, were not *intrinsically* linked to genes/body/look. But to something 'else' and what that 'else' actually is, I have no *bleep* idea. But--does that make Luthien a 'Man'? Hmm, not sure we have a best-fit word for what happened to her. I think I'd still call her 'of Elvenkind'

2. About Glorfindel the reborn, who slew a Balrog (shunting aside the reincarnation stuff--I did read the materials, and know a little about the Glorfindel debate. Reborn, boated out of Numenor and all that was interesting to read). Is he uber-Elrond and uber-Galadriel, assuming he was the 'same' being?

I don't think being reborn would, necessarily, imply he is the greatest. I'm not sure of his power quotient, whatever that means, but he wasn't afraid of the nine, and he didn't get an Elven Ring. Does that mean he was lesser in the stature of 'power' or more that he was just less of a noble line? Who knows.

Unfortunately, though, Tolkien had a terrible habbit, um I mean hobbit, woops, habit of (as I said in jest), of 'lordifying bestest, then unbesting the lord, who was then unlordified and undefeatedly bestified by the new VFF, BFF or Rugby League sports hero, who was the Lorewisest but dumbest. Which all means: I have a headache here. *rubs temples* *screams*

But, if I had to pin one of the "greatest-est-esty-estest-great-not-un-grate, woops ingrate, no, I mean, un-great-ified, I'd go for Feanor, and Galadriel, first [who was unfriends forever with Feanor because they invented Facebook]. Then, Enerdhil that jeweller about the Elessar making (he was best-est at jewell smithery, assuming he ever lived), then Fingolfin, Beren, Luthien - wait, now I do have a headache.

3. On Three. I guess so. He pressed in to surround Imladris didn't he?