The Lingering Darkness Planning/Discussion Thread

[piosenniel]

Let me echo Hilde's sentiments:

Nice post, Ealasaide!

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You've done such a thorough job of getting inside such a twisted character's mind and presenting her so vividly and consistently.

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And kudos to Hilde and Nerindel for how well they've fleshed out their characters. Their complexity is so well presented, they seem almost to be people I might have met or glimpsed along the way.

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Again - thanks for the well written story that keeps unfolding and keeps me checking for the next post!

~*~ Pio

[Ealasaide]

Thankee, Hilde and Pio! ***blushes & bows to the ground*** You are too kind!

And I heartily agree with Pio regarding Hilde and Nerindel. You are doing a great job with your characters and the twists and turns you bring to the plot line! Great stuff.

[Nerindel]

Wow great post Eala

Hilde I am going to throw up a save not sure if it will be for Lespheria or Vanwe(I think alot will be going through her mind atm that should be shared) or perhaps both not sure yet, but go ahead with Menecin's attack as the posts for either will be regarding the doubts Naiore has given them.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Originally Posted by piosenniel

You've done such a thorough job of getting inside such a twisted character's mind and presenting her so vividly and consistently!

Exactly! Well put Pio.

Nerindel, I'm running on the assumption that Lespheria will not lower her bow considerably, at least until Vanwe is free. Let me know if you think her arm will get too tired!

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Hmm...It is looking like I might be awhile writing Menecin's post, and do apologize. Real life is raining soccerballs, volleyballs and assorted relatives on me. I will try not to be an overly long time about it.

[Ealasaide]

You've done such a thorough job of getting inside such a twisted character's mind and presenting her so vividly and consistently.

Kinda scary, ain't it? But I do thank you.

Hilde - regarding your slow post - no problem! Will be looking forward to it whenever it arrives.

[piosenniel]

~*~ NOTICE ~*~

Let it be known that

Fordim Hedgethistle

known to those in the Shire as Master Hearpwine, and etc . . .
has now had his name engraved on the iron plaque that bears the list of the story-tellers of Gondor.

Huzzah!

Let all come to The Inn of the Seventh Star in Minas Tirith and raise a glass of cheer to Fordim.

** And for those wondering, drink and food are free on this occasion. And all are most welcome **

~*~ ~*~

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seriously, everyone is welcome to come to the Inn in Gondor, in whatever character you'd like.

Give a word of congrats to Fordim and knock back a drink or two. I'm there, playing darts . . . challenge, anyone? . . .

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Ok, I have finally gotten that post for Menecin on the thread. So I guess we are in the mist of number 8 on the outline. Pease note that Menecin has been hit by Avanill's dart, and becoming increasingly passive will no longer present a problem to our heroes. Avanill has been true to his word, the arrow was not doused with a fatal poison (as Naiore might believe), but something that renders the subject relatively harmless.

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End game outline

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Dúlrain Et al

1. Dúlrain with the help of Toby and Gilly go after Benia.

2. Dúlrain kills Barrold and they free Benia

3. Dúlrain confesses his love to Benia and she compassionately counsels him not to continue Kaldir's revenge and they all head back to Rivendell.

***WE ARE HERE***

4. end post

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Amandur's group

1. Amandur Et al leave Rivendell, finding Dir and discovering the fates of Kaldir and Rauthain.

2. Léspheria and Naiore sense each other’s presence and a fierce unseen battle ensues.

3. Amandur's group moves to encircle Naiore, using Léspheria as bait to draw out Naiore. Naiore plays along; falsely letting Léspheria believe her plan is working, while going after Menecin and Vanwe.

4. Naiore finds Vanwe and Avanill, killing Avanill.

5. Léspheria realizes Naiore’s intent, and cries out warning, but too late. Naiore has Vanwe and is taunting Menecin.

6. Naiore is within bow shot of Léspheria, and Léspheria tries to reason with her.

7. An enraged Menecin attacks Naiore.

***WE ARE HERE***

8. Vanwe slips from her mother's grasp into the arms of Léspheria & Vanwe's show of pity and compassion stops her father from delivering the deadly blow.

10. Desperate and filled with rage, Naiore turns on Léspheria.

11. Lespheria speaks to Naiore pointing out all that she has lost in persuit of an answer that was within her to begin with, She then turns her back on Naiore.

12. Naiore incensed and blaming Léspheria for Vanwe's pity strikes out at Léspheria.

13. Naiore is killed!

11. End post.


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[Ealasaide]

Well done, Hilde!

Nerindel - how are you coming on filling your save? Also, I was wondering if you would like to get a post in there, reacting to Menecin, before I pick up again with Naiore. (Actually, I'm hoping you post in both spots before I come back with Naiore - it would make my job so much easier knowing what your characters are up to! )

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Thanks much, Ealasaide.

I just wanted to make a note here that I have changed the last paragraph of the post for Menecin, as I can't see him using a sword to pop those strings! He has now used the bodkin. (What ever was I thinking?!)

[Ealasaide]

AHA! I knew there was a reason I was waiting before printing out a copy.

Thanks for the notification!

[Ealasaide]

Hilde - your revisions for Menecin's post in #335 have been placed.

Pio - Hilde has made some changes to her post for Menecin in the second half of Post #335. If that post has already been transferred over to the Fan Fic site, I guess the revisions need to be transferred now, too. Thanks!

Nerindel - it was good to get your PM - looking forward to your post!

[piosenniel]

Actually - I haven't transferred anything in a long while. I'm waiting to see how post space #329 will be filled in first.

~*~ Pio

[Ealasaide]

Okay! Then everything is lovely.

BTW - we haven't forgotten about #329. Hopefully, we will get that filled before too much longer!

[Nerindel]

Okie dookie I have added Vanwe's post to save #340 and will add Léspheria's just as soon as it is finished hopefully tomorrow or at the very least by the weekend then I will have Vanwe act as the outline suggests. (8. Vanwe slips from her mother's grasp into the arms of Léspheria & Vanwe's show of pity and compassion stops her father from delivering the deadly blow.)


You will remember that in earlier planning I suggested that it would be Lespheria who revealled to Naiore the answer she saught, well I have since had a change of heart and think it only fitting that it should be Vanwe. She will glean the knowledge from Léspheria which you will see in my next post.

Eala, Hilde if you see a problem with this change please let me know.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

...she was a healer and healing was what was needed.

Nice, Nerindel! Yea Vanwe. You go girl, see past all the smoke and mirrors!

Pio? Is that you writing with a feathered pen? For some reason I thought you had blue spikey hair...hmm....

[piosenniel]

Like this!

That was just me in a brown wig, above, passing for normal!

~*~ Pio

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Alright then! I was beginning to worry....

All is well with the world.

[Ealasaide]

Nice post, Nerindel! I will wait to see what Lespheria does before I proceed with my post for Naiore.

[Nerindel]

Yay at last I finally found time to finish Léspheria's post, if its not one thing it's another

[Ealasaide]

Yay! Looks like I am up!

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Hey Nerindel? Are you planning on posting again after Ealasaide?

[Ealasaide]

Should I put a Save up there for Naiore?

[Nerindel]

Yes I am planning to post for Vanwe, but I need to see what Eala does with Naiore first.

I will also need to know from both of you exactly what frame of mind both your characters are in prior to Vanwes intervention and what you percieve as their greatest fears. I was going on the assumption that Menecin's has to do with naiore...that he helped create the monster she became or perhaps that she never really loved him and only used him for the knowledge he could provide or is there something deeper? As for Naiore I was assuming that it would have something to do with the answer she seeks....is her flaw that she has no fear or that she merely doesn't recognise it in herself? It will be important for my next post that I know these thing as with lespheria I plan to have Vanwe force them both to face their fears and reveal the truth about themselves and the choices they have made in their lives, so that she might show pity for them both.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Yes, Menecin’s greatest fear has to do with Naiore, but it immaterial to him at this desperate point whether or not she had ever loved him in return. Rather he is feeling the full weight of responsibility for her. In those early days he saw her keen mind and judgment of character and so had encouraged her, believing that she might rise to be something more benevolent that what she has ultimately became.

In his eyes he feels that he chose to turn his back on the truth and now views his own love for her as major weakness that has had resulted in the horrendous suffering of others. Seeing this ‘bigger picture’ he is laboring to cut off that love from his consciousness the best he can, (even though those early days with Naiore are still very fresh in his mind), so that he can end this permanently.

I suppose his greatest fear is that he will be unable to, or be prevented from carrying out what he sees as necessary, and that Naiore will continue to grow even more degraded and debased from his memory of her. He is troubled by his oath, but no longer feels he is of value since he has failed at every point. And his last hope of taking her east he has finally realized is not possible or practical. So he has resolved to sacrifice himself and her, in order to set things right again.

Don’t forget though, that he has also vowed to Vanwe that he would not lose her, and that might be a way to reach him.

I don’t know if this helps. I hope it does, and that it doesn’t make things more difficult for you. There is nothing deeper going on, unless you have a suggestion. In which case I'm all ears. (And teeth apparently too!)

[Ealasaide]

My view of Naiore is that her fascination with the origins of Fear arises from the fact that she does not feel Fear and, therefore, seeks to understand what it is and where it comes from. The closest thing she feels to fear would be the cool clarity of determination that hits her when things are going badly for her and she finds herself in a threatened position. She would not get the adrenaline rush of the Fight or Flight Reaction like normal individuals might. She would continue to be calm and even-headed, maybe a little angry or frustrated that things weren't going as she had planned, but completely unafraid.

It is an interesting idea, but I don't think that there would be any fear there for Vanwe to show her. Naiore is a powerful and stubborn individual and would not be terribly vulnerable to another individual, even Vanwe, attempting to point out her flaws. Actually, I think it would just make her angry. (Remember, Naiore had regular interactions with Sauron himself, who is not exactly a suitable companion for the weak of will.) Her ego is such that the pity of her kinswomen would enrage her, though, and would prompt her to lash out at them.

I take it, then, that I should not have Naiore lash out just yet?

[piosenniel]

Read-along fan here . . .

The picture that's formed for me of Naiore is of someone who is empty of fear. Fear or the ability to fear isn't suppressed in her - it's missing; a blank space.

I've wondered all along how that happened to her . . . or was it always part of her make-up . . . And if the latter were so, did that fuel her sadistic streak even more?

A person who has never experienced fear, I would think, would also have no basis for empathy, sympathy, compassion for others . . . or real love.

If she were always this way, without the ability to fear, was she at first simply curious about the fear she saw in others? Did she at first grow jealous and or hateful of those who could experience the range of fear emotions? Did she invert her jealousy and begin to see those others then as inferior to herself because of their fears? And seeing herself as superior to them, learn early to use their fears to control/manipulate them?

I've always wondered if, when she was younger, she tried to 'fit in' - and being a keen observer of others, was able to put on a reasonable show of positive emotions. But since her time with Sauron she's thrown off all pretense of such and simply opted for the power her own lack of fear and her ability to ferret out where another's fear lies brings.

Or maybe she would have naturally evolved into such a creature as she is at present.

She creeps me out . . . reminds me of those true sociopaths (in modern parlance) that I've had the misfortune to encounter in my nursing career . . .

[Ealasaide]

Right-o, Pio! That's precisely how I see her. You hit the nail (the Naiore?) on the head, so to speak. I think her association with Sauron merely served to distill the socio-pathological tendencies she would have developed on her own over time.

If she were always this way, without the ability to fear, was she at first simply curious about the fear she saw in others?

I would think so. Like with serial killers, the more she indulged her curiosity about her obsession, the more it grew.

Did she at first grow jealous and or hateful of those who could experience the range of fear emotions?

Interesting question! Elora, who originated this character has this to say about Naiore's early childhood:

Naiore was both fascinated and slightly repulsed by other people. She sought few friends and had little regard for the opinions of others....She became fascinated with impulses that many refused to acknowledge existed within themselves... The forbidden nature of her inquiry seduced her further... She became more isolated, and developed contempt for the apparent foolishness of her parents and kin.
...War was bewing over the sea, and Naiore could sense a power growing. It tempted her. Proud and contemptuous of her own kindred, Naiore sensed that many of her forbidden questions could be answered...

Did she invert her jealousy and begin to see those others then as inferior to herself because of their fears?

I don't know that jealousy was ever a factor, but Elora mentions again and again Naiore's contempt for her kinsfolk and her fascination for the darker elements of life, with a particular interest in the arenas of pain and fear. I think there was a definite belief in her own fundamental superiority over others.

And seeing herself as superior to them, learn early to use their fears to control/manipulate them?

Oh, yes. Absolutely.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

I know I'm out in the left field here, but Ealasaide do you suppose Naiore craves power/control, or feels entitled to it? I would think that if she did, she might find her style worked in Sauron's realm, where it was probably suspect among the elves, viewing her lack of compassion etc. In a way she was more accepted and valued there in Mordor. But would that have been a factor in reinforcing her behavior? Is any part of her self worth tied to those successes?

[Ealasaide]

Hilde - yes, absolutely, in that she both craves power and feels entitled to it.

More from Elora:

When Sauron returns to Middle Earth, Naiore is waiting for him. As Menecin and her people sought her, Naiore found herself in a new place. She was both welcomed and mistrusted. ... Her talents were encouraged and grown. ...Her kindred saw her and recoiled at what she had become.

Concerning Naiore after the fall of Sauron, Elora adds:

The fall of Sauron brought Naiore's career to a sudden end. .... She had no answers still and the prospects of ever finding them were remote. ... Bereft of ambition, and having sacrificed everything for a knowledge she did not have, Naiore is faced with a crisis. She had been waiting for the day when Sauron would have dominion over the lands. Revenge on those who had taken her future from her galvanized her into action...

With that in mind, I think Naiore put great value on her successes under Sauron and harbors great bitterness at the ultimate failure of Mordor to dominate Middle Earth. Regardless of her mocking of those who seek revenge in her last post, revenge against those who made her fail and who still seek to destroy her is her chief motivation. (How dare these inferior creatures attempt to thwart me!) As an individual without empathy or conscience where others are concerned, she will use and discard others without remorse. While she generally will not lie outright, she will mislead by manipulation and twisting the truth, i.e. the way she used the motivation of revenge against Lespheria while all the while it is the strongest driving force within herself. She is a master at self-serving rationalization.

Because of her excessive pride and sense of inate superiority, I don't think that her bitterness could be turned against her in any positive way. It seems to me that any attempt to do so would just annoy her.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

So do you think that any attempt to reach her could make use of her pride, sense of superiority and twisted rationalization as a way to get her attention? Just curious.

[Ealasaide]

Sure - all would get her attention. I just don't know that she would necessarily be capable of reaching any kind of cartharsis.

[Nerindel]

Wonderful, Great stuff, *phew* for a horrible moment there I thought I had been reading Naiore's Character Totally wrong, but her absence of fear is exactly what I had planned for Vanwe to discover. Pio summed up here more or less exactly what Vanwe would come to realise and pity about her mother:

A person who has never experienced fear, I would think, would also have no basis for empathy, sympathy, compassion for others . . . or real love.

In essence realising that Naiore could never be anything than what she is, never the mother she longed for. The wrongness she sensed in Léspheria was similiar to the wrongness she senses in her mother but not the same as she believes at the moment, as Léspheria's fears were merely supressed where as Naiores are absent all together. As for Menecin she percieved that rather than surpressing his fears he is in fact driven by them. ie Hildes quote:

Rather he is feeling the full weight of responsibility for her.

Vanwe's need would be to show him that the responsibilty was never his to carry That as he had once told her the flaw was Naiores and it was her choice to follow the path she did. She will also feel sorrow for him as she comes to realise that Naiore was never capible of ever truely loving him as he did her.

While Vanwe will come to the realisation that her mother is beyond saving/healing she will still be ruled by her own sense of compassion and not wish to harm Naiore even if it is the only way to truely save her from herself!

[Ealasaide]

Sounds great, Nerindel! I'm glad we are all on the same page here. Sorry if I threw you somewhere. I thought I was being fairly clear.

I am thinking, though, that maybe you should post again before I try to do anything with Naiore. Right now, Menecin has got Naiore in a hold with his dagger against her side. Vanwe has already escaped to Lespheria's side.

The outline says:

8. Vanwe slips from her mother's grasp into the arms of Léspheria & Vanwe's show of pity and compassion stops her father from delivering the deadly blow.

10. Desperate and filled with rage, Naiore turns on Léspheria.

11. Lespheria speaks to Naiore pointing out all that she has lost in pursuit of an answer that was within her to begin with, She then turns her back on Naiore.

12. Naiore incensed and blaming Léspheria for Vanwe's pity strikes out at Léspheria.

13. Naiore is killed!

Either I can have Naiore get herself out of this or you need to have Vanwe act here. If I am going to stick with the outline, I really don't have much else I can do until your characters take further action.

[Nerindel]

Actually I was just rereading Hilde's post and thinking the samething, Vanwe needs to act here. I will get on it asap so you can get back to Naiore

[Nerindel]

ok Eala your up

I changed the ending to that post at least half a dozen times and I'm still sure I have missed something, so if you see anything that needs changed or added please let me know.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Wow Nerindel, you have been busy! Nice!

[Snowdog]

Wow! You all are still writing this years later?

Elora and I have taken this story outline and co-authored a book.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Which outline, the original RPGs? If so, I'm thinking that it is a bit different from what is set down here.

Have you changed the names of our original characters then?

[Ealasaide]

Hi, Hilde & Nerindel - just dropping in on the thread to let you know that I do have a post from Naiore in the works. December is a rough time for me to find writing time as I am in the retail biz. It is both our busiest business season and the end of our fiscal year, so I am snowed under at the moment. I will post as soon as I can.