Scarburg Meadhall Discussion Thread

[Folwren]

Is Gwathagor about? The sword fighting contests can start soon, right?

-- Foley

[littlemanpoet]

It can start now.

Hey Gwath! It's time for the sword fight! You're up!

Nice bit of tension there Fea - I think that you want the term "envy" rather than "jealousy". You're envious over what you don't have, jealous over what you do and don't want to lose.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

He's a man of Rohan, so he's awesome. He's the son of a lord, so the boy's got skills. He also likes swords. So the boy's got skills.

And he's um... frustrated... right now.

So the boy's got testosterone overload.

So if the sword fights run anything true to how he's feeling, he should either do exceptionally well, or he should make a foolish error in the heat of the moment.

Just throwing that out there...

Edit: Envy. Yes. I'll fix that.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Nice bit of tension there Fea - I think that you want the term "envy" rather than "jealousy". You're envious over what you don't have, jealous over what you do and don't want to lose.

Really? I never knew that. That's very interesting. Now I understand some verses from the Bible better. Haha.

-- Foley

[Thinlómien]

And now I insist the boys must be up to some mischief, at least the younger ones.

[Folwren]

Well....Did Thornden win or loose? They could conceivably be squabling over that.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Really? I never knew that. That's very interesting. Now I understand some verses from the Bible better. Haha.

Ditto. Thanks for that tidbit, Elempi.

Fea, that was a great post. Poor Degas... Hmm, I wonder if there's any way at any time that Linduial could visit Scarburg? I miss Jenny.

Whoa, the swordfight already?! Uh, I mean yeah, finally.

Following Fea's lead: Ginna's no Eowyn. At first she didn't even want to learn how to use a sword, but Randver's word is more or less law in his household. Since her father is a good swordsman and she spent quite a lot of time in the past sparring with him, she's pretty competent, though she lacks experience. And by now she's quite rusty.

Poor girl, I never should have let her join, but she insisted. Something about making an impression on Harreld, methinks.

[littlemanpoet]

You're welcome on the tidbit.

Eodwine, being of the Eorlingas = Rohirric knight: he is most handy with spear of course, since that was Eorling cavalry mode. However, all Eorlingas know the sword and so Eodwine is a veteran in its use. He has not had much need in the last 15 years (since the War), but he like any other Eorling knows to keep his skills "oiled" through daily sparring and the like. We haven't written any posts like that, but it certainly can come up as if it had occurred on a regular basis. A warlike people don't stop being warlike just because there's no war....

While we wait for Gwath on the sword fight, let's do some research on Anglo-Saxon wedding cermonies. I won't get a chance today (I don't think), but if there's anybody who wants to beat me to the punch, feel free.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

While we wait for Gwath on the sword fight, let's do some research on Anglo-Saxon wedding cermonies. I won't get a chance today (I don't think), but if there's anybody who wants to beat me to the punch, feel free.

I will, if I have time, but I don't know if I will have any time. We'll see.

By the bye, (is it by the bye, or by the by?) Nogrod or Lommy, what are your thoughts on my suggestion above about the boys being 'up to mischief', as Lommy puts it, over whether or not Thornden lost or won?

-- Foley

[Gwathagor]

Ah, the sword-fight. I'll put the screenplay I'm writing on hold and see if I can't make some progress on our final game then.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Is Gwathagor about? The sword fighting contests can start soon, right?

-- Foley

Sorry sorry sorry! Yes! Maybe in a couple of days?

[Gwathagor]

So, rather than using the stats as previous folks have done, I'd like everyone who's got a character in the sword fights to give me a short run down on how well their character gets along with swords.

I reckon our swords look generally like the one in this picture, but maybe a little, little bit longer since the Eorlings are fighting from horseback and thus might require greater reach.

The contest itself I think will be similar to Nogrod's quarterstaff matches, where you win by striking your opponent a number of times. Does this sound satisfactory? Any suggestions? I'm open to them.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Nogrod or Lommy, what are your thoughts on my suggestion above about the boys being 'up to mischief', as Lommy puts it, over whether or not Thornden lost or won?

Foley, take initiative.

Gwath, some of us have already posted our characters' sword use. Please look up a couple posts. Best check the chapter, "The Golden Hall" in Two Towers regading Eorling swords. But I think you're right.

Yes, striking one's opponent is the deciding factor. Like fencing only with more options.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Foley, take initiative.

Please do if you have ideas. I'll write something on this weekend as well but go on if you're there first.

[Groin Redbeard]

Hey Gwath, just so you know, Erbrand has had no practice with the sword. He'll be relying on instincts as usual but he's pretty tuckered out by now, Erbrand has been in almost every game. Feel free to use him however you want.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Please do if you have ideas. I'll write something on this weekend as well but go on if you're there first.

Okay dokay! The problem is, I don't know if I have time today... If I do have time, I promise I'll post. But, Nogrod or Lommy, if YOU have time to post before me, do so.

-- Foley

[Thinlómien]

That was great, Foley. (But I have to say I wondered why Garmund is called Garwine half of the time.... )

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Lose, Foley, not loose, but otherwise very good. I like it. Reminds me of my brother teaching me to play cards when we were little. Just as I thought I was finally getting the hang of it, and winning, he'd remember a rule he'd previously forgotten which would mean that I couldn't do that move.

[Folwren]

Thanks for the heads up, girls. Tomorrow I'll fix the problems. (Lommy, you could not IMAGINE how much trouble I was having remembering that poor boy's name!)

-- Foley

[Groin Redbeard]

Great job everyone with progressing the story along, especially LMP and Folwren! That scheme of yours, LMP, added so much vitality to the RPG. I expect to be more active with my posts as soon as the games are over. Speaking of which, are the sword fights happening soon! Sorry for bugging you about that Gwath, everyone is looking forward to the explosive conclusion to toDay.

I have a post up with Erbrand asking Kara what is going on. If you could respond to that, Kath, whenever you got the time I would appreciate it.

[Kath]

There you go Groin! Answer up.

[Groin Redbeard]

Thanks Kath, I'll get my response up sometime today!


Interesting Facts
I found some interesting and cool things about Anglo-Saxon weddings. For instance, did you know that the tradition of tying shoes to cars originated from way back when? In Anglo-Saxon times, the groom would tap the heel of the bride’s shoe to show his authority over her. In later times, people would throw shoes at the couple. Now, thankfully, folks just tie shoes to the new couple’s car. I could just picture Harreld throwing a tremendous boot at the couple with a smile on his face!

Dress
Anne of Brittany made the white wedding dress popular in 1499. Before that, a woman Just wore her best dress. It should be noted that a white wedding dress is in no way indicative of The "purity" of the bride-to-be. Indeed, white is not accorded as a symbol of chastity, but of joy.

Something Blue:
In continuing with the discussion of the white wedding dress, it should be noted that – in Biblical days – blue represented purity. Thus the bride and groom would wear a blue band around the bottom of their wedding attire, hence something blue.

Cake
I know that the ancient Romans would bake a cake made of wheat or barley and break it over the bride’s head as a symbol of her fertility (Whether this meant cracking the cake above the bride’s head or actually bonking her on the noggin with it is rather unclear. I'm not sure we want to know…). Over time, it became traditional to stack several cakes atop one another, as tall as possible. The bride and groom would then be charged to kiss over this tower without knocking it over. If they were successful, a lifetime of good fortune was certain for the new couple. Finally, during the reign of King Charles II of England, it became customary for cake to be a palatable palace iced with sugar. I don't know if we are even planning on having a cake, just something interesting in case we do.

The Wedding Ceremony
Items Needed:
The rings
The groom's ancestral sword
A new sword to be given from bride to groom

I'm trying to keep this as concise as possible, but I'm afraid that I can't explain some the terminology from the book. Therefore I'm just going to write this part from it:

Women were seen as very powerful, carriers of the family mægen, and more intimately connected to the kinfetch as well as the Idesa of the clan than men. They served as head of the household, and did many of the chores that ensured the community would survive. Therefore when they left to marry, the family suffered a great loss. To a lesser degree, the handgeld was to reimburse the family for her loss of labour, but in no way should it be seen as a purchasing of a bride. Instead it was an attempt to equalize gift for gift. This gift for gift scenario is seen throughout the ancient marriage process, and was a way of exchanging maegen and hamingja between the couple and their families. It was in essence, fusing members of the two clans into one family. The exchange continued through the wedding ceremony. In various Heathen areas such customs as exchanging rings, swords for keys, mead, and cake are seen. Such customs were very old and dated from at least the time of Taticus' writing of Germania. In it he says that brides were obtained by payment of a dowry by the groom in the form of sword and shield, cattle and bridled horse. On the morning after the wedding, the groom also had to give his new wife a morning gift, the morgengifu. This was hers to keep and use the entirety of her life. Finally, in addition to the groom paying the handgeld and morgengifu, the bride's family had to pay the brýdgifu. This was the bride's dowry, forever hers and untouchable by her husband. It was to ensure, in event of the husband's death or divorce, that her and her children were provided for.

All has been mostly taken care of between Degas and Eodwine so we don't have to worry about that, for the most part. The ceremony is overseen by a prophet/druid in the old days, or by the head of the house, and was called a Weofodthegn (try and pronounce that and not laugh). I'm guessing that that was one of the reasons why you brought that wizard to Scarburg Eodwine, or was it just chance?

1) The Wedding Trip

The bride goes to the site of the wedding. She is proceeded by a young kinsman bearing the new sword to be giving to the groom. The groom likewise, bearing his ancestral blade accompanied by the groomsmen goes to the site.

2) Hallowing of the site

The Weofodthegn hallows the site and then makes a brief statement as to why they are gathered that day

3) Exchange of handgeld and brýdgifu

The handgeld and brýdgifu are then exchanged. This may be done with the following words:

Weofodthegn to Groom
"Do you have the handgeld as you oathed to have?"

Groom
"Yes"

Groom to Father of bride:
"I give you this, the handgeld as I oathed to do." A few words may be added describing the handgeld.

Weofodthegn to father of the bride
"Do you have the brýdgifu as you oathed to have?"

Father of bride to bride:
"Yes"

Father of bride to bride:
"I give you this the brýdgifu. It is yours to have and hold all of your days."

Weofodthegn:
"The brýdgifu and handgeld have been gifted and given. The holy oaths given have been held. Now let the bridegroom and bride exchange their oaths"

4) The Exchange of swords

The groom then gives the bride his ancestral sword. Something like the following words should be said:

"I give you this sword to save for our sons to have and to use."

The bride then gives the groom the new sword with something like the following words:

"To keep us safe, you must bear a blade. With this sword keep safe our home."

5) The Exchange of rings, the oaths, and the keys

The couple should then exchange vows and rings. These oaths are best written by the couple and should involve any pre-marital agreements that were made. Both oaths should, but need not have to invoke the goddess Wær (Vár) as keeper of oaths. Both the groom's oath, and the bride's oath should end with something like "With this ring I thee wed," with the placement of the wedding ring upon the other's finger. The bride's ring is offered on the hilt of the new sword symbolizing his trust in her. Finally, all of the groom's keys are given to the bride, as she is now keeper of the household.

6) Pronouncement

The Weofodthegn witnessing the vows then pronounces the couple werman and wife and states whatever else is prescribed by his state or nation for a legal wedding.

I tried to write this in the strictest sense of an Anglos-Saxon wedding, we don't have to use everything that they did back then. I'm sure Folwren and LMP might have some ideas of their own.

EDIT: Sorry, I won't be able to post today. I've got to get some chores done outside and it will last well past dark.

[littlemanpoet]

Wow, Groin! That was excellent! I'd rep you if I could. Much can be used of that. I'll have to think what Eodwine will and won't do in that regard....

[littlemanpoet]

So as not to drag even more than this is, if Gwath has not (been able to) post(ed) the swordfight by Saturday January 17, we will move on and the swordfight will have to appear as a reminscence. So it was said, so let it be done.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

So, rather than using the stats as previous folks have done, I'd like everyone who's got a character in the sword fights to give me a short run down on how well their character gets along with swords.

Stigend has had military training in his youth as is said, so he shouldn't be a complete stranger to swordplay but surely his skills have rusted during the years even if he has used one a few times after the training years. But he is clearly more comfortable with a spear than with a sword.

Garstan shouldn't be a swordsman as such but his rugged life and many adventures surely have thought him a thing or two about surviving...

Originally Posted by lmp

if Gwath has not (been able to) post(ed) the swordfight by Saturday January 17, we will move on and the swordfight will have to appear as a reminscence.

Sounds fair to me. Let us hear from you Gwath! Let the swords ring!

[Nogrod]

I'm not so sure the boys will be too happy about the publicity their little fight is arousing...

At least Thornden, Stigend and Garstan are rushing to the place but feel free to intervene with your chracters as well if you feel like it.

[Folwren]

Hilarious post, Nogrod! I greatly enjoyed it. Javan is NOT going to take well to being called an 'oath breaker'. Ooooooh, them's fightin' words, buddy.

Will you alter the description of Thornden's exclamation from anguish to worry? I think that would be fitting. Thanks!

-- Folwren

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Will you alter the description of Thornden's exclamation from anguish to worry? I think that would be fitting. Thanks!

Done.

Javan is NOT going to take well to being called an 'oath breaker'. Ooooooh, them's fightin' words, buddy.

That was the kind of intention...

Even if I do think those guys should be friends in the end (some distant future) we should not make it too easy.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

That was the kind of intention...

Even if I do think those guys should be friends in the end (some distant future) we should not make it too easy.

Oh, I agree entirely. Hehehehehee

-- Foley

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Sounds fair to me. Let us hear from you Gwath! Let the swords ring!

Ok, I'm going to try to write it tonight and tomorrow. We'll see what happens.

[Gwathagor]

Look, I am very sorry, but something much more important came up and I wasn't able to write the swordfight. I don't know if you all want to give me the chance to write it tomorrow, on Saturday?

By the way (and if you decide to give me a day extension), I could use suggestions as to how to format the sword-fight. There are a lot of people competing, and I'm not sure how to get through them all without waxing epic - like Nogrod's magnificent quarterstaff matches.

[Folwren]

I, for one, am willing to extend the deadline for you, but it's Elempi's call. I hope whatever came up is important in a good way and not in a bad one.

As for the way you write it, well, I can't say I'm the best one to give advice, but you asked for it.

Might you, instead of giving us a play by play, kind of give a general description? Sort of, illustrate at the beginning of the post how the overall game looked, put intenseness into it, and then, later in the post, more gloss over the couples' matches. And then, for one or two of the competitions, perhaps go into greater detail and have something of interest happen. This way, it will be shorter, but still interesting.

-- Folwren

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I really think Elempi doesn't mind us making calls for ourselves at this point, especially since he doesn't intend to be around much longer.

So Gwath, I have nothing against you posting a bit late and my recommendation for formatting is actually dead the same as Foley's.

You don't need every detail, just a few highlights.

[Gwathagor]

Yes, I was thinking of doing something rather like that, only with more emphasis on the final match perhaps.

[littlemanpoet]

No prob Gwath, thanks for speaking up. We can wait. It helps when people show up and at least say they can't post. It's the glaring silence that leaves me wondering, and impatient to keep things moving.

[Gwathagor]

Uh, Garmund and Stigend are signed up for the sword-fight, but they're both occupied with their sons right now. Should I drop them from the contest?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Uh, Garmund and Stigend are signed up for the sword-fight, but they're both occupied with their sons right now. Should I drop them from the contest?

Let's hope Garmund is not, his father Garstan wouldn't agree on him taking part!

But to the actual problem: just ignore it. You can write how the sword-fights went with Garstan and Stigend (and Thornden, is he in?) and Foley, Lommy or I can write what happened with the kids later if no one can make it earlier.

So just keep them in the fights and don't worry. We'll worry about how they got there and what happened before the swordfights began.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Let's hope Garmund is not, his father Garstan wouldn't agree on him taking part!

HA! You're right.

[Lhunardawen]

I'm alive and desperately wanting to post, but at the present I'm more than a little distracted. Goodness, I really hope I can manage to post for Randvér. Well, I must. I'll just ask for a little patience. Thanks.

[littlemanpoet]

I just noticed post # 401 for the first time this morning! Be assured that if I had noticed it before now, I would have posted in response to it long ago! It's been ten days!

I'm wondering whether to ask Foley to add Rowenna's response to the end of that post, or to include it in a new one?

Edit Never mind, I've taken care of it.

Gwath, if I am not mistaken, Thornden should also be part of the sword fights, and you may have to change things. Perhaps I might make a suggestion, that you take Ginna's fight with Degas from the second round to the first, and also replace Degas' name with Thornden in Degas' first round fight?