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08-15-2014, 03:13 PM | #81 | |||
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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08-15-2014, 03:18 PM | #82 |
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Yes, reluctantly, and then fortelling his possible doom in Moria. As though he is saying, fine I will follow you this time into Moria, but don't blame anyone but yourself if you perish. This last warning did not change Gandalf's mind, and the Ring went into the unknown darkness of Moria. Aragorn decided against arresting the situation and claiming the leadership at an opportune moment, when most of the Company would have possibly sided with him so as to not go through Moria.
Last edited by Moonraker; 08-15-2014 at 03:28 PM. |
08-15-2014, 03:23 PM | #83 |
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You would be correct. Remember which book was written first.
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08-15-2014, 03:30 PM | #84 | ||
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I think it is important to note the difference between the eternal and immortally wise Olorin the Maia (Maiar is plural, Maia singular) and Gandalf the Wizard/Istar. Tolkien states in Unfinished Tales that the bodies of the Istari are real bodies, not just physical forms that the Maiar and Valar habitually wore to interact with the Children of Iluvatar. Quote:
The difference between Olorin and Gandalf is pretty big, in my opinion. Gandalf, being embodied in a physical body that was his own and not just a fancy meat-suit he fabricated for himself, was subject to hormones and aching joints and adrenaline and being cranky because he was cold or hungry. He could forget spells and get frustrated and irritable because of it. Olorin was not subject to these same problems. Gandalf had much stricter limits on his authority and power than Olorin did, and Gandalf was much more easily slain than Olorin was. The two identities are distinct, though obviously intimately connected. |
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08-15-2014, 03:33 PM | #85 | |
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08-15-2014, 03:34 PM | #86 | ||||
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08-15-2014, 03:36 PM | #87 | |
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Possibly very powerful weapons could have harmed Gandalf the Grey, not sure about killing him outright though. Not orc spears however, even if this is stated in the Hobbit. Last edited by Moonraker; 08-15-2014 at 03:40 PM. |
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08-15-2014, 03:43 PM | #88 |
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Proof of the physical fallibility of the Istari: Saruman. He was a powerful wizard and leader of the Istari, yet he was killed simply by having his throat slit.
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"It is everywhere. It is everything. Its scales glisten in the bark of trees. Its roar is heard in the wind. And its forked tongue strikes like... *lightning strikes* whoa! Like lightning!"-Merlin, Excalibur(1981) |
08-15-2014, 03:47 PM | #89 |
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That after being denounced from the Istari by Gandalf the White. The breaking of Saruman's staff was symbolic of loss of all Maiar power, save his commanding voice.
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08-15-2014, 03:50 PM | #90 | |
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Mandos. Eol. Melian. Finrod. Malbeth (callled "the Seer" for a reason). Andreth. Elrond. Glorfindel. Galadriel. Dirhael and Ivorwen. Boromir and Faramir's dreams. Aragorn. Saruman. These are just off the top of my head, because the list of characters that exhibit the gift of foresight is extensive.
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08-15-2014, 03:55 PM | #91 | |
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Last edited by Moonraker; 08-15-2014 at 04:02 PM. |
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08-15-2014, 04:04 PM | #92 |
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Perhaps Gandalf did take heed; maybe he deemed the possibility of his death in Moria an acceptable risk as compared to the greater possibility of the Ring's capture on any of the alternative roads.
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08-15-2014, 04:08 PM | #93 |
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That is not the impression I got through his mood for much of the journey in Moria. He seemed as though he was content that he made the right call, but he knew Moria was not free. That all changed when the drums started to roll.
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08-15-2014, 04:09 PM | #94 |
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Perhaps. We're really all delving into our impressions and personal interpretations of Gandalf's inner thoughts, decisions, and motives, at this point.
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08-15-2014, 04:11 PM | #95 |
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I think Novices and Newcomers allows for some fun along the way. The more serious letter of the law stuff is perhaps more evident in the other sections.
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08-15-2014, 04:13 PM | #96 | |
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I'd like to know where Aragorn forecasted Gandalf's "imminent doom". I know Aragorn mentioned his misgivings to Gandalf about going into Moria, but where is the passage of Aragorn saying, "If you go into Moria Gandalf, you will die."
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I do not think Saruman's staff breaking was symbolic of his powers being lost. When Gandalf's staff broke he was still using his powers to fight the Balrog.
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08-15-2014, 04:13 PM | #97 |
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Oh, I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, I'm just saying that it's not really possible to draw hard conclusions from Gandalf's inner monologue when we're never made privy to it, so one person's personal interpretation is not necessarily any more or any less definitive than another's.
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08-15-2014, 04:23 PM | #98 | |
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The Balrog did not break Gandalf's staff through supernatural power in the way Gandalf the White did for Saruman's staff. Of course a staff may fall and crack open if it is just made of oak. But neverthless it does symbolise the loss of power if broken through show of power, sending the bearer reeling. Last edited by Moonraker; 08-15-2014 at 04:31 PM. |
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08-15-2014, 04:24 PM | #99 | |
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Now, I don't believe the Istari's magical power came from their staves, but I do believe that (if you'll pardon the reference), as the wands in Harry Potter, the staves facilitated the exercise of their native power which, if you'll remember, had been restricted by their embodiment as material, biological beings, as well as by statute of the Valar. I think Saruman's power was lessened by the breaking of his staff, but that Gandalf's authority may have extended even so far as to actually limit Saruman's power further, as punishment for his crimes and to prevent him from using his considerable power to further damage the Free Peoples. Keep in mind, this is just my personal interpretation. The loss of Gandalf's staff, on the other hand, was as the result of no punative action, specifically meant to restrict or lessen his status, but likely as a result of Gandalf exercising such a great amount of power against his foe. It may very well have lessened his ability to use "magic," but I don't think it had the same effect as the loss of Saruman's staff had on him. |
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08-15-2014, 04:27 PM | #100 | |
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08-15-2014, 04:37 PM | #101 | |
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But you see, this is the aspect of your posting that I find insincere. You argue in circles without proper documentation or research, merely opinions -- even questioning the author himself.
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08-15-2014, 04:51 PM | #102 | |
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08-15-2014, 05:04 PM | #103 |
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I'd actually say that Gimli was the only exception. Gandalf still didn't want to go through Moria, he simply decided to do so despite that fear. He wasn't the only one.
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08-15-2014, 05:07 PM | #104 |
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Was Gandalf actually scared? Cautious and on guard yes, afraid, not so sure. He had been through Moria before, and spoke well of that accomplishment as though it was more than achievable second time round. Aragorn spoke of very evil memories in his visit to the mines, but he did not reveal what he saw.
Last edited by Moonraker; 08-15-2014 at 05:13 PM. |
08-15-2014, 05:12 PM | #105 |
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What has that got to do with what you were trying to argue about? Again, you are talking in circles. You questioned Aragorn's foresight, and I provided ample characters who at one time or another exhibited true, uncanny and accurate foresight. Also, trepidation or fear does not equal foresight.
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08-15-2014, 05:15 PM | #106 | |
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Last edited by Moonraker; 08-15-2014 at 05:32 PM. |
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08-15-2014, 05:25 PM | #107 |
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Except that Aragorn's heritage as a descendent of Luthien gives him certain abilities beyond those of the average man. Being as this is middle earth, they are rather understated. But his abilities as a healer, in my opinion, demonstrate some level of true power.
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08-15-2014, 05:34 PM | #108 | |
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In future, less opinion more research, thank you.
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08-15-2014, 05:39 PM | #109 | |
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I did pay tribute to Aragorn's inherited Ranger instincts in my previous post. That, of course, cannot be discounted. I just don't see him being ''gifted'' with foresight to the extent you are implying. Aragorn, but great though a Ranger he may be, he isn't supernatural like Glorfindel, or Gandalf, or Elrond. Last edited by Moonraker; 08-15-2014 at 05:48 PM. |
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08-15-2014, 05:44 PM | #110 | |
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08-15-2014, 05:49 PM | #111 | ||
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A few things.
Regarding the staffs of the Istari, if they were intricately linked to a wizard's power, why did Saruman not take Gandalf's staff when he imprisoned him? I do not recall ever seeing a Maia or Vala having the ability to take or diminish the powers of another Maia. Has this been accounted possible in the annals of Arda? I'm not certain of the idea of the native powers of the Istari being restricted by their embodiment. Rather their embodiment was meant "to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men" [UT; The Istari]. I think they were not to use their powers to have the Children of Eru heed them under duress and to not appear too grand, thus coming in humble bodies, that is, as older men. Quote:
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Your 2nd quote by Aragorn again does not sound like his concern was specifically a death sentence. "I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!" [FotR; A Journey in the Dark] "Did I not say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware? Alas that I spoke true!" [FotR; Lothlórien] What was it he was speaking of when he said beware? Was it "imminent death" or something else which just happened to lead to it?
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08-15-2014, 05:55 PM | #112 | |
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08-15-2014, 06:08 PM | #113 | |
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There are a couple of seers I know of. Malbeth The Seer and Tar-Palantir, the 24th King of Númenor were such. Malbeth has two prophecies I know of, one concerning Arvedui and the fate of the Northern Dúnedain, and the 2nd concerning Aragorn. These are instances of foresight among the Dúnedain, namely seers. There is also an instance of the Lossoth concerning Arvedui.
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I'd suggest you take a look at that article by Tolkien I put a link to.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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08-15-2014, 06:09 PM | #114 | |||
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08-16-2014, 02:29 AM | #115 |
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But by the time Gandalf, had been "sent back" and had perhabs was, for once acting as the arbiter of the authority they were both subject or at least answerable to.
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08-16-2014, 10:08 AM | #116 |
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Let’s get back to the original question, “Should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest?”
The answer seems clear: yes. Yes, he should have. For then, instead of further tedious footslogging, we could have had an awesome fantasy cop show, featuring Aragorn as the Middle-earth equivalent of the angry police captain! (Site generates phrases typifying the stock character, e.g., “The Angry Police Captain just threw his mug at you”, “The Angry Police Captain thinks your partner is getting too close on this one”, “The Angry Police Captain takes it black with three sugars”.) Much of this is easily adapted. Thus: The Angry Ranger Captain doesn’t give a damn about jurisdiction when there are lives on the line. The Angry Ranger Captain doesn’t have room for screw-ups in the Fellowship. The Angry Ranger Captain took you off the Moria case. The Angry Ranger Captain hates to do this, but it’s for your own good. Try it and see!
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08-16-2014, 10:53 AM | #117 |
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Rather than Gandalf, perhaps Aragorn should've been more concerned with Trolls. I believe Trolls are more of an issue. Excuse me, I mean Trolls were more of an issue.
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08-16-2014, 01:13 PM | #118 |
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Tolkien said foresight had failed in him as to how the story should unfold after the Company were standing next to Balin's tomb in Moria. He did not pick up the story again for about another 2 years. He needed a way to get rid of Gandalf in order to have him used elsewhere, and not just as the guide for Frodo. I'm not even sure the words of warning from Aragorn before entering Moria were yet fully mapped out by Tolkien in terms of an outcome for Gandalf further down the line. What I do know is he wanted the Company to go through Moria and have Gandalf part ways with them. So Tolkien himself was not going to allow the characters to argue and get worked up so much as to cause mutiny and a break up of the Fellowship prior to entering Moria. Even Boromir was forced to go against his will into Moria thanks to the wolves.
Last edited by Moonraker; 08-16-2014 at 01:30 PM. |
08-16-2014, 01:36 PM | #119 |
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Trolls may still be an issue.
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08-16-2014, 01:41 PM | #120 | |
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Most of what you have written in your last post is not relevant to this thread. All that experience, 5k plus posts and all. |
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