"The Hobbit: There And Back Again" To be Renamed "The Battle of the Five Armies"

[Boromir88]

The Battle of Five Armies is a better title than Desolation of Smaug. After getting to the 2nd viewing of DoS, I was left wondering where is the Desolation? Of Smaug...or of anything?

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The Battle of Five Armies is a better title than Desolation of Smaug. After getting to the 2nd viewing of DoS, I was left wondering where is the Desolation? Of Smaug...or of anything?

I mean, we got to see Dale for about 40 seconds.

[Nerwen]

Have you all seen the new trailer?

If I weren’t so attached to my current sig, I would seriously consider replacing it with:
“These bats are bred for one purpose… [long pause] ...for war!"

If only the rest of the featured lines approached this level of inspired lunacy, but no, once again they’re courtesy of the Hack-O-Matic Dialogue Generator™. You can barely even make fun of this stuff, it’s so generic.

[Mithalwen]

And yet the bats were the only thing I recognised from the book. I don't think they were specified as specially bred mutant battlebats but hey what do I know....

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

And yet the bats were the only thing I recognised from the book. I don't think they were specified as specially bred mutant battlebats but hey what do I know....

I know the bats are “canon”, it’s just the line conveys so much.

–There is a special Mount Gundabad Military Chiropteran Breeding Program (or something).
–However, bats in Middle-earth are also bred for other (unspecified) purposes. This is, apparently, common knowledge.
–Still, your dedicated Warbat is more effective than a bat bred for say, war and postal delivery.
–Legolas is very well-informed about bat-breeds and can instantly tell the difference between purebred Warbats and inferior mongrels. It’s probably an important skill for Elven warriors.

[Mithalwen]

Exactly. I am just profoundly depresed having read an. Piece by an alleged Tolkien scholar claiming that becausecTolkien tweaked the Hobbit to fit with the Rings it was ok for PJ to inflict all this stuff on the Hobbit. Assuming there is a turbine roar in vicinity of Wolvercote cemetery...

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Exactly. I am just profoundly depresed having read an. Piece by an alleged Tolkien scholar claiming that becausecTolkien tweaked the Hobbit to fit with the Rings it was ok for PJ to inflict all this stuff on the Hobbit. Assuming there is a turbine roar in vicinity of Wolvercote cemetery...

Yes I also see a lot of people saying "But Tolkien attempted to re-write The Hobbit!" and when people respond "But he stopped early on because it wouldn't have been The Hobbit anymore," they don't seem to have much of an answer.

This film looks unbelievably cliché, overblown and stupid but I think I was so beaten down by 'The Desolation of Smaug' that I've gone beyond the point of frustration into a space where I've actually become curious about how mind-blowingly awful it might be. I'm honestly expecting a masterpiece of awfulness where the corporate wasteland of the Hollywood imagination reaches its zenith.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Yes I also see a lot of people saying "But Tolkien attempted to re-write The Hobbit!" and when people respond "But he stopped early on because it wouldn't have been The Hobbit anymore," they don't seem to have much of an answer.

This film looks unbelievably cliché, overblown and stupid but I think I was so beaten down by 'The Desolation of Smaug' that I've gone beyond the point of frustration into a space where I've actually become curious about how mind-blowingly awful it might be. I'm honestly expecting a masterpiece of awfulness where the corporate wasteland of the Hollywood imagination reaches its zenith.

I wouldn't even care about the changes at all if they made the movie fun and interesting. They don't. As well as being an absolutely terrible adaptation, the movies are also reasonably ungood. When you make changes to make an interesting movie, and they make it significantly worse, then you have done something wrong.

I would've been completely fine with Azog leading the orc army into the Battle of the Five Armies, because he makes for an antagonist figure after Smaug is dead, which I do believe was the purpose to begin with. I am not fine, however, with the weird extra plot lines with the dwarves, because they just shouldn't be there. Nobody likes them. The moviegoers find them confusing, and pointless, while the readers think it's insulting, and pointless.

Of all the unnecessary PJ changes, Tauriel was probably the worst. She creates a disgusting side plot which actually everyone (save a few) can't stand how cringeworthy it is, and accomplishes NOTHING in the overarching plot. Even this whole Sauron crap sidestory is better, because it ties into the overarching plot, and gives Ian McKellan more screentime, which is something that people demanded.

[alatar]

Oh my...those might be Morgul bats...which can be slain only by athelas arrows.

Liked the Trolls with the catapults strapped to their backs.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by alatar

Oh my...those might be Morgul bats...which can be slain only by athelas arrows.

Fortunately, the Elves have brought a store of athelas arrows with them on campaign.

They use these arrows because the athelas is poisonous to the orcs.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Fortunately, the Elves have brought a store of athelas arrows with them on campaign.

They use these arrows because the athelas is poisonous to the orcs.

Be exact. Morgul orcs respond to athelas. Use DDT for Morian orcs and organic cellulosic orcicide for White Handers.

[Kuruharan]

Right you are!

Here I am criticizing Jackson for his slipshod work and then there I go using such lazy and general terms in my own criticisms.

I may never live down the shame.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

...organic cellulosic orcicide for White Handers.

Amusingly, in the States there is a pest control company named Orkin.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Right you are!

Here I am criticizing Jackson for his slipshod work and then there I go using such lazy and general terms in my own criticisms.

I may never live down the shame.

We shall write stories of how one who criticized PJ suffered mental torture after failing to use the correct terminology!

We should surely eradicate any who dares to have any ounce of 'wrong'-ness in their work! Ironically, that includes all of us, too! World purging, ho!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Amusingly, in the States there is a pest control company named Orkin.

Evidently the founders stumbled on a chemical extracted from a common but often overlooked plant...

[Kuruharan]

My Dad, who in the past has always enthusiastically(ish) looked forward to the next Hobbit movie to come out, has as a result of Desolation changed his views and is now looking forward to the last installment with a mixture of trepidation and resignation. I'm sure he will still go see the movie but it seems almost out of a sense of obligation than any expectation that he will actually enjoy it.

What further evidence is needed regarding how badly Jackson has messed this thing up?

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

My Dad, who in the past has always enthusiastically(ish) looked forward to the next Hobbit movie to come out, has as a result of Desolation changed his views and is now looking forward to the last installment with a mixture of trepidation and resignation. I'm sure he will still go see the movie but it seems almost out of a sense of obligation than any expectation that he will actually enjoy it.

What further evidence is needed regarding how badly Jackson has messed this thing up?

I agree with your father that I'm only going to see it out of obligationg, and also to see what PJ screws up.

He did SO WELL with Lord of the Rings, that it's unimaginable that he could do something so unfaithful to the books, and cringe worthy and painful at some points.
He certainly caught the George Lucas syndrome.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx

He certainly caught the George Lucas syndrome.

In fairness to Lucas, I don't think he screwed up anything like this badly.

After J.J. finishes mauling Star Wars we will probably all look back on the prequel trilogy with fond nostalgia...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

My Dad, who in the past has always enthusiastically(ish) looked forward to the next Hobbit movie to come out, has as a result of Desolation changed his views and is now looking forward to the last installment with a mixture of trepidation and resignation.

I'm looking forward to it with great joy and excitement-- because it will be the LAST, and we will no longer have to suffer any more of PJ's use of the Tolkien name on his moronic action-adventures for retarded 12-year-olds.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I'm looking forward to it with great joy and excitement-- because it will be the LAST, and we will no longer have to suffer any more of PJ's use of the Tolkien name on his moronic action-adventures for retarded 12-year-olds.

You haven't heard about Farmer Giles of Ham? Jackson thinks he may be able to winnow it down to a mere two three-hour installments. But it will be a near thing, what with Tolkien's notes for a projected sequel and some creative extrapolations involving romance and vampires and spunky warrior-maidens and spunky warden-maiden vampire romance.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

You haven't heard about Farmer Giles of Ham? Jackson thinks he may be able to winnow it down to a mere two three-hour installments. But it will be a near thing, what with Tolkien's notes for a projected sequel and some creative extrapolations involving romance and vampires and spunky warrior-maidens and spunky warden-maiden vampire romance.

You better prepare yourself for a trilogy of 3 hour Silmarillion movies, which somehow heavily involve Gandalf!

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx

You better prepare yourself for a trilogy of 3 hour Silmarillion movies, which somehow heavily involve Gandalf!

Thank goodness Christopher Tolkien is still alive.

[Galadriel55]

Not to mention Leaf: By Niggle - it does hint at the end that there are more adventures ahead that concern the characters present in this tale. Who cares if their fate isn't supposed to be known? Who cares that its precision isn't relevant to the story, and the whole thing morphs into a different story altogether? There's an opening for an endless sequel. You'll get at least several seasons of a TV show from that one. Heck, maybe one day, when the movie industry finally runs out of ideas and can't milk the story anymore, it will turn into a prequel for The Hobbit!

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Not to mention Leaf: By Niggle - it does hint at the end that there are more adventures ahead that concern the characters present in this tale. Who cares if their fate isn't supposed to be known? Who cares that its precision isn't relevant to the story, and the whole thing morphs into a different story altogether? There's an opening for an endless sequel. You'll get at least several seasons of a TV show from that one. Heck, maybe one day, when the movie industry finally runs out of ideas and can't milk the story anymore, it will turn into a prequel for The Hobbit!

I'm still waiting for the 50 episode animated version of Farmer Giles of Ham, soon to be airing on Nickelodeon, directed by our hobbit PJ.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Thank goodness Christopher Tolkien is still alive.

May he be granted a Numenorean span.... just turned ninety though but I hope going strong.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Exactly. I am just profoundly depresed having read an. Piece by an alleged Tolkien scholar claiming that becausecTolkien tweaked the Hobbit to fit with the Rings it was ok for PJ to inflict all this stuff on the Hobbit.

An argument usually advanced by people who have never actually read the abortive 1960 revision, because it doesn't support their contention at all.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

May he be granted a Numenorean span.... just turned ninety though but I hope going strong.

I hope so too.

I hope also that Christopher's successors don't just see dollar signs (or pound signs as the case may be) when matters come into their charge.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I hope so too.

I hope also that Christopher's successors don't just see dollar signs (or pound signs as the case may be) when matters come into their charge.

The thing is that Christopher has already had a great number of John's works published, so there really isn't all that much to do after he is gone. Christopher really did finish a lot of his father's work, and for that, we are eternally grateful, and he should feel very proud.

[Smug the Fabulous]

I can imagine they would get so desperate they would start a franchise around Tom Bombadil.
"Coming soon to theatres...Bombadil II: Old Man Willow's Revenge."

[Mithalwen]

Christopher's accomplishment as editor is as remarkable in its own way perhaps as his father's as subauthor /subcreator and there may not be very much more to be extracted from JRRT's papers though. There are a few pearls perhaps and some of us hope for the publication of more letters sincethe publication of HoME must surely make more of them relevant. However were the family inclined to truly cash in the opportunities are pretty much limitless.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Christopher's accomplishment as editor is as remarkable in its own way perhaps as his father's as subauthor /subcreator and there may not be very much more to be extracted from JRRT's papers though. There are a few pearls perhaps and some of us hope for the publication of more letters sincethe publication of HoME must surely make more of them relevant. However were the family inclined to truly cash in the opportunities are pretty much limitless.

And we all know how Christopher wasn't a fan of the movies, and understandably so. Even Simon doesn't seem like the kind of person who wants to cash out on his grandfather's work.

I want to hear Christopher's opinions on the Hobbit movies, if he will even allow himself to merely listen to their names.

[Zigûr]

Details of the film's "creative liberties" are emerging on TORN, but they're so unbelievably and mind-numbingly awful that I'm taking them with a grain of salt for the time being.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Details of the film's "creative liberties" are emerging on TORN, but they're so unbelievably and mind-numbingly awful that I'm taking them with a grain of salt for the time being.

There is only so far creative liberties can go before it's changing the source material entirely. Adding extra lines of dialogue is fine, and giving a certain character a larger role is all good, but adding main characters and changing the course of the plot is disgraceful.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Details of the film's "creative liberties" are emerging on TORN, but they're so unbelievably and mind-numbingly awful that I'm taking them with a grain of salt for the time being.

Given the past history, I would think the more mind-numbingly awful they are the more likely they become.

*edit*

I had to go and look...even the TORN person was highly critical of the Legolas aspect of the movie.

I will add one quote to give a taste of the true horror that awaits us...

Legolas does more than shield-surfing in this movie

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A criticism of PJ on TORN???????

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I'm looking forward to it with great joy and excitement-- because it will be the LAST, and we will no longer have to suffer any more of PJ's use of the Tolkien name on his moronic action-adventures for retarded 12-year-olds.

Also, when it's all said and done, I'm fairly confident anyone can read The Hobbit in less time than it would take to get through PJ's slop-fest.

[Nerwen]

Well, there's another review on TORN which goes into a bit more detail. The film sounds... interesting...

Dain’s arrival is impressive but is a little trumped by the awkward realization that Billy Connolly has been entirely replaced by a CGI character.

There is the business of giant worms, akin to those from Dune, that tunnel out massive pathways for the orcs to sneak towards Dale

Legolas grabs onto the foot of a bat and fetches a ride up the mountain, in a sequence that seems straight out of King Kong

[Beorn] arrives atop one of the eagles Radagast rides in on.

Thranduil plays the role of Nick Fury and instructs Legolas to track down a young ranger in the north, known as “Strider.”

Hoax or not? Discuss.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hoax or not? Discuss.

I would like to think the movies were a hoax; unfortunately, I am more and more inclined to believe someone actually spent time to subvert the original plot. No, really!

In other ToRN news, a thread was locked because a poster made this observation:

Here's to Peter Jackson...
The only man in the universe that could make true Tolkien fans hate Legolas.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hoax or not? Discuss.

Supposedly at least one of the people who's revealed these items from the film is "legit." I'll wait and see, however. Even lurking on TORN is frustrating at the moment. The self-appointed opinion police who can't abide the slightest hint of not towing the party line about lavishing undying praise upon the films are out in force. The spoilers seem to have spooked a lot of people who might otherwise have been giving it the benefit of the doubt.

EDIT: That being said, a lot of the complaints seem very petty too. I'd prefer more "it's not true to its own themes/the book's themes/ etc" and less "Nooo Beorn isn't in it enough," which isn't exactly the most compelling reason for questioning the film in my opinion.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Supposedly at least one of the people who's revealed these items from the film is "legit." I'll wait and see, however. Even lurking on TORN is frustrating at the moment. The self-appointed opinion police who can't abide the slightest hint of not towing the party line about lavishing undying praise upon the films are out in force. The spoilers seem to have spooked a lot of people who might otherwise have been giving it the benefit of the doubt.

EDIT: That being said, a lot of the complaints seem very petty too. I'd prefer more "it's not true to its own themes/the book's themes/ etc" and less "Nooo Beorn isn't in it enough," which isn't exactly the most compelling reason for questioning the film in my opinion.

I know some people who criticised the 2nd movie because 'it wasn't humorous enough'.
While the Hobbit was a humorous tale at points, it's not a comedy. Also, PJ screwed up, and the humor is not how it was in the book, bringing me back to the original statement that the movies aren't true to The Hobbit's themes.