Werewolf LXXXIII: The Nightmare on the East Road

[A Little Green]

Since I'm really taking after my dad and apparently unable to stop refreshing the page and go to bed, I can answer this:

Originally Posted by Pitch

Now that's abnormal - and you don't mind the holes in his arguments against Agan's plans which she, me and yourself have pointed out? (note that I do disagree with her plans, I only think they've got enough faults without construing ones that aren't there)

Oh yes, those arguments were flawed - but what people often forget is that "making sense" doesn't equal innocent nor "flawed arguments" wolf. Nog's posting just didn't look wolvish to me because it wasn't one bit careful or calculated. And in addition to that, my empirical research shows that a Nog I disagree with (like this one) is most often an innocent one. (I have a history of always suspecting him and he always turns out innocent - and the once I didn't suspect him because he seemed to make so much sense and be so nice was when he turned out to be a wolf.)


EDIT: x-ed with Nog and honorary Boromod

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

we would have to assume that the Wolves and Cobblers are going along with this and would be coming forward if stunned, and that doesn't seem like something they'd want to do

I can't see how it would harm them. On the contrary - the BW would know they didn't want to make it public, and should she choose to play for us, she might find a way to share that information. Plus giving the impression of cooperating with the village is never a bad idea for a wolf...
It's probably not much use to talk about it anymore, though, because it's as you said - the BW can easily pretend to have been stunned if her pick for the night has died.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

could be a bold Aganwolf attempting to lead and manipulate us, could just as well be an innocent Agan trying actively to make strategies that would benefit us.

Trust me, this time it's the latter.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

that revealing will only mean confusion and opportunities especially for the cobblers to toy with.

And why should the cobbler want to cause confusion that way and draw attention to herself. Yeah of course there might be some situations, but I think you make it sound much bigger a problem than it really would be. In this game, the cobblers probably want to survive as long as possible.

I can see you are not exactly saying there that the gifteds should reveal...

Seriously Nog. Either you are completely underestimating my intelligence or being dishonest. I would never in my right mind suggest the gifteds to reveal just like that.

you've tried it now two times - more or less succesfully - to make us discuss other things than who the wolves are.

And what would Mr. Nogrod like to discuss on day 1 when barely half the village has posted? This person is a wolf because she posted first, that isn't because she said "I want to vote for a quiet one!"?
I have talked about something else than who the wolves are. So what? If we want to discuss the freaking rules (and I wanted), what's a better time for that than day 1? What's the issue? See, now you're making me talk of irrelevant (ie. something else than who's a wolf) things more and more, the next thing you're probably going to throw it back in my face: "She isn't talking of wolves lynch her!!!"

we have been talking about it considerably, aka. not trying to find the wolves (like I'm now losing my time answering your plan and what you have said about it

Well, for that you can only blame yourself, not me.

I really feel like voting Nog at the moment because he looks fairly bad and that's simply not like him. He's totally twisting my words and trying to put me in a bad light.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by BoroGod

If no more wolves remain, the B-W's powers increase and instead of just being stunned at night, the person is stone-cold dead. Final decision.

So we need to lynch four baddies - in a village of sixteen losing more or less one per Night anyway? Great...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Would you like to bring yourself to the spotlight the next Day calling "hey, it was me the BW picked! Probably for no reason, we must have a reaally bad BW choosing an innocent like that!"

It is extremely unlikely the BW catches a gifted each night, so I don't see what's the problem.

in the endgame there might be chances of locating the other side, but then they are already deadly enemies...

So, Boro, how about the BW winning with the wolves?

[Aganzir]

The votes:
Eomer - Agan
Glirdan - wilwa
Volo - Agan 2
sally - Agan 3
Greenie - Glirdan

Thanks guys.

As for me, I could vote today for sally, Nogrod, Volo (if one of us has to die, I'd much rather it was him ), maybe Glirdan (if doing that helps me save myself). The people I'm not voting for (unless something very drastic happens) are Greenie, wilwa, EW, Form, Inzil, Pitch.

Now for some tea.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

It is extremely unlikely the BW catches a gifted each night, so I don't see what's the problem.

One Night is enough. If everyone is thought of telling and then one Day no one doesn't - the BW has a BINGO. And when people tell, the wolves have a good candidate for consideration ("the BW thought of that as a gifted, let's consider her/him as well more closely").

And I wouldn't like to put our gifteds into that position. If you would, then you probably have evil intentions. Or you don't think clearly (which I doubt as I do know you're an intelligent person).


Anyway. It's getting late and I'm done with this discussion. I need to take a look back on others and will not be derailed by cobblerish second questions. And if you're innocent Agan, please help us finding suspicious behaviour.

For I do agree this lazyness on behalf of most of the village is just plain shameful and I could actually vote fex. Glirdan just on the basis of pure annoyance... *random vote, please*

EDIT: X'd with Agan

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Volo

Yowiebowiedavidglowie!
1. Contrary to Agan's idea of having a common vote for BW extermination, sponsored by TB, I think it will be more sensible to not to anger BW at Day. If BW is in danger of being lynched, xe will most likely start revealing things in favour of the Wolves, such as xis mildly educated hunches about the identities of the Gifted. As long as TB is alive, it is better not to make an open enemy out of BW. Ok, xe is be against us, and we against xim, but there is mutual benefit in not concentrating too much in the demise of the other party. Instead, the Wolves.
2. The BW needs to be the last wight standing, so it is in xis favour to keep at least one Wolf alive, for the game to progress faster. Now if(when) we manage to lynch two Wolves, BW will be quite the Cobbler, though not as self-sacrificing as one. At that point especially it would be beneficial not to have xim reveal what xe knows openly.

First, I don't understand why you think the BW will get any information from who he's stunned. Second, why on earth would he reveal himself? The village could then lynch him, or Tom could then kill him, he would never do that, even if he was being lynched.

Just noticed this:

Originally Posted by Boro

I originally thought if no more wolves remain the B-W would still just continue stunning at night and then lynch people during the day. However, this may unecessarily drag out the game, so after some Modly deliberation. If no more wolves remain, the B-W's powers increase and instead of just being stunned at night, the person is stone-cold dead. Final decision.

Thanks. That clears that up. So basically the BW could totally be on our side right now. He can help get rid of the wolvies and then he will get his magic killing powers, which he probably would really like to have. So right now he is on our side in the sense that he also wants the wolves dead, but once that's accomplished he'll want to kill everyone.

x'ed with Agan x 2 and Nog

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

So, Boro, how about the BW winning with the wolves?

Can't happen, he needs to be alone at the end, which means no more wolves. Once the wolves are gone he can slowly pick off the remaining innocents (and I guess the Cobblers would be innocents at that point, if the wolves are gone, or would they start helping the BW?)

Oh, and another question, if the wolves were to kill Barliman the same Night that BW chooses Barliman, does that mean the wolves still get a kill the following Night?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

So, Boro, how about the BW winning with the wolves?

Negative. B-W has to be the last one left. Anything short of that and it would consider its purpose a failure.

I have realized the mistake in the numbers though. Since the B-W is not counted in either the baddie nor innocent tally, but can still vote. A village with 1 wolf + 1 innocent + the Barrow-wight, the remaining wolf could still get lynched. If the innocent or B-W is lynched the wolves win. If the wolf is lynched the B-W wins. The remaining innocent is basically screwed but in the position to decide which baddie wins? *shrug*

So adendum to the wolves winning condition. If the Barrow-wight is still alive, the wolves win if the number of innocents is 1 less than their own. If the Barrow-wight is gone, the wolves win if the number of innocents is equal (or less) than their own.

How come no one pointed these holes out before we started! You had a week, you're forcing me into snap decisions!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nog replying to me re Agan's 2nd plan

Think of yourself as a gifted in a game and learn you were stunned - so someone was already after you! Would you like to bring yourself to the spotlight the next Day calling "hey, it was me the BW picked! Probably for no reason, we must have a reaally bad BW choosing an innocent like that!"

Yes, but the BW doesn't know who the gifted's are, they can only guess, just like the wolves; and like the wolves, they can be lucky and hit the nail on the head, but (speaking from personal experience) just as often or more often they'll be as much groping in the dark as the ordos. As I've said, there's a lot of problems with Agan's plan, but that's not one of them.
(Unless, say, the narration should happen to mention that e.g. the Seer's dream was blocked by the BW. In this case, the Seer obviously shouldn't say anything about being stunned, and any innocent worth a pinch of salt should know better than say they weren't and help the wolves finding the Seer by default.)

Originally Posted by Nog

About the BW and the wolves "joining forces" - what are their chances of doing it and their willingness to do it? BW needs kills happening as fast as they can, so she would love to pick the ranger - but she might be happy if the seer gets a wolf or two (so not happy to stun the seer)? Then again the wolves would love to see the BW stun the ranger and the seer as many times as possible, but they'd have to make us lynch her sooner or later.

So I think there is an unworded truce between the two sides now as in the beginning their aspirations do meet. But the going will get rough between them the less people there are - especially if the number of wolves gets down early on.

The problem to them is I think this: in the beginning they might wish to co-operate, but there's little to go on finding the other side - in the endgame there might be chances of locating the other side, but then they are already deadly enemies...

Yes, yes, and yes. I think I said as much in fewer words already.

Originally Posted by Nog

Wasn't it said the BW is like a werebear, a team of her own?

Yes!, and I think we've covered that rather extensively, not to mention it's been stated over-explicitely in the rules, so I marvel how an innocent Agan seriously couldn't have got it. Hmmm...
Someone, I think wilwa?, has raised the question what would happen if the sole survivors are BW + a lone wolf or BW + a lone innocent. BW can't kill the wolf, BW can't kill the innocent; wolf can't kill BW, innocent can't lynch BW*, so I guess both of these scenarios would be considered a draw. What would happen if the last survivors are BW and Tom? Tom could kill BW -> village victory; unless BW stuns him, but then Tom will get xem the next Night - xe can't stun the same person two Nights in a row, can xe?
*(or wait - actually, if BW and lone innocent vote for each other, there'll be a coin-flip, so we might still get lucky!)
Anyway, there's no way the BW can win with either the wolves or the village.

(x-ed with the mod: Oops! Adjust what I said about endgame scenarios accordingly.)

EDIT: also x-ed with #81 down

[Kath]

Well thanks so much Eomer for that kind greeting. Let's all suspect him now for saying he was going to kill me and Form but then going after Agan! That's suspicious right?

Can someone throw a vote count at me? I have skimmed not read and that's going to stay the same really. So I'd like to know who's for the gallows and have a better look at them.

Ah and so I make no unfortunate errors ... Pitchwife - male or female?

[Aganzir]

Pitch guess what? I'm drinking mate.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And when people tell, the wolves have a good candidate for consideration ("the BW thought of that as a gifted, let's consider her/him as well more closely").

I still disagree with this. Who said the BW will only try to stun the gifteds? How about trying to find Ferny, or even a wolf to make things more difficult for them? You misunderstood what I originally meant, fine, why do you have to keep implying things that weren't there? I already realised it was a bad idea, thanks to wilwa.

And if you're innocent Agan, please help us finding suspicious behaviour.

Ah but I am. Or doesn't your behaviour count as suspicious by your standards?

Okay thanks Boro.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Yes!, and I think we've covered that rather extensively, not to mention it's been stated over-explicitely in the rules, so I marvel how an innocent Agan seriously couldn't have got it.

I was under the impression the BW only needed to survive till the end - I didn't apparently interpret "last man standing" quite so literally. But yeah this makes things clearer.

edit: xed with Kath - I provided a tally in #85.

[wilwarin538]

It just hit me that there's only an hour left to the Day, how did that happen? It seems to be coming at us way too fast.

So I need to vote, cause my family is about to sit down for a nice supper and then I have to go out. So I'm going to go for:

++ Glirdan

99% of the reason I'm voting him is because he makes no sense to me, he seems more jumpy and nervous than usual, the way he was trying to take Agan's idea and make it into something regarding Cobblers, but never really explaining how the heck that would work, and I just am not getting good vibes from him at all. The other 1% is out of spite for him voting me.

x'ed with Agan

[Aganzir]

Okay, sally doesn't look so bad anymore (apart from the fact that she didn't really come up with anything of her own)... It's funny how much more sense everybody seems to make now that I know the wolves & the BW can't win together. Way to go me.

However, Volo & Glirdan don't look any better and neither does Nog. I'm the least certain of Glirdy, but I might end up voting for him.

Also, Pitch - if I don't get something, it has nothing to do with my allegiance. I don't pretend confusion about the rules to make myself look better, I find it unsportsmanlike.

[Kath]

Eomer - Agan
Glirdan - wilwa
Volo - Agan 2
sally - Agan 3
Greenie - Glirdan
wilwa - Glirdan 2

Thanks Agan, missed that as I went through. I added wilwa's vote on. Our Canadians are voting against each other. Interesting?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

The votes:
Eomer - Agan
Glirdan - wilwa
Volo - Agan 2
sally - Agan 3
Greenie - Glirdan

As said before, I don't think Agan should die toDay, so if I'm to cast a useful vote, it needs to be either Glirdan-ward or Wilwa-ward. Of the two, I've found Glirdan more entertaining toDay, and Wilwa slightly more useful...

But it's Day 1, and slightness is slight... so...

++ Wilwarin

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'm here and reading, for the end of the day (luckily enough!) I have to read page 2, but will be here soonish.

[Nogrod]

So, I've been skimming the thread through and here are a few points I was able to make from it.


Lottie: Here I agree with wilwa; she was thinking about a scenario that would have given us an extra-lynch. That I would call rather good. So those easily juymping on her look more suspicious to me than her.

Sally seems to be trying this time. She's not only dealing cookies and talking random. So should I be suspicious of her? I am.

Glirdan made a totally freaky vote, even underlining the randomness of it. I've been a wolf with him two times lately and I can say it's pure horror (sorry Glirdy, but you really made me nervous those times). He's not too composed this time either and could indeed be a wolf once again (third time from late summer?). My only problem with lynching him would be - with the odds of him being a wolf once again - that he's oftentimes also the "easy victim" for lynch, because of the way he plays.


Adding this:

Eomer & Form: the veterans making their worst act and more or less refusing to play thinking they're granted to get to D2 anyway...

Reminding you about what Greenie said: it's not just the bad vote or not saying anything as such, but the fact that a wolf can hide in it the next Day just saying “oh, that was just D1, you know, just random, you can’t suspect me from it!”. And even if we all know better, we tend to want to vote rather someone we have even the slightest "real suspicion" based on what people said about other people (however many times we have been proven wrong with our hunches) than going with a random voter / talker.

*I so miss those days when non-players were lynched immediately*

Anyway, I seem to get under their spell and would be very reluctant to vote either just because it has been such a long time they have been around. You guys show you're worth skipping D1! And if one of you is a baddie I don't care how long a break you take in WW the next time, but come back and play like that I'll vote for you, on D1. And will heavily urge others to do likewise.


Heh, just saw Form's vote... well, not so bad... there's a minuscule amount of reasoning there... like a nanomillimeter of involvement. Should I call that encouraging?

[Aganzir]

Eomer - Agan
Glirdan - wilwa
Volo - Agan 2
sally - Agan 3
Greenie - Glirdan
wilwa - Glirdan 2
Form - wilwa 2

Left: Agan, Zil, Kath, Lottie, Nerwen, Nogrod, Pitch, Shasta, EW

Is anyone else considering Nog or Volo?

[Inziladun]

*slides into chair*

DL happens to be at the exact time my work shift ends, and there's some stuff I need to get done before then.

Looks like a battle of the bandwagons at this point. Three for Agan, two apiece for Glirdy and Wilwa.

The Agan train still looks odd to me. She may be a baddie laughing her head off, but I can't get behind her lynch now.

Wilwa's done nothing to raise hackles.

I'd really be tempted to vote for Volo, but it seems wrong to do so when he hasn't played in so long. I'm such a softie, I know.

Eomer could be a possibility for getting the push against Agan started. I think Volo looks worse than he does, though.

x/d with the last three

[Aganzir]

Nog's last post makes considerably more sense than his earlier ones. I'm a bit torn about him at the moment - on the one hand, the way he treated me is freaking suspicious; on the other hand, he's also being a rational (and amusing) Nog. I might be tempted to give him a pass for today... but then, I'm all too aware of how smart a baddie he can be. Grr I'm confused.

[Boromir88]

30 minutes left.

[Pitchwife]

Ah, crap, now my head is swimming already. I should really know better than to indulge in Barley's brew at a time like this.
Anyway -

Originally Posted by Agan

Well, for that you can only blame yourself, not me.

Not really. Think again, and look at all you've said.

Update to my list (see #68):
- Moving wilwa from 3 to 2. She really looks like a reasonable innocent to me.
- On further consideration, same for Nerwen. I really don't think her remark about an evil Tom was serious.
- (I feel inclined to include Zil here, only I've learned the hard way that it won't do to trust him too much, however innocent he seems.)
- Moving Greenie from 5 to 4 - not because she dropped her suspicion of me (which I think wasn't badly reasoned), but because her last posts look more and more genuine to me.

On other matters, I note wilwa's objections to what I've said about Lottie, and I'm a bit concerned I may have fallen into the very trap I tried to caution against, i.e. thinking too much about the BW (and how the wolves would deal with xem) and too little about finding the wolves themselves. So if anybody finds any holes in my reasoning, for Eru's sake point them out, please.

(Kath - male, last time I checked. However, you've heard my voice on Skype, so why pretend confusion???)

(x-ed with I don't know how many)

[Nogrod]

What I think of Volo? Well, he might be a total nut-head baddie trying to go with the "then going flow" - or then he is an ordo who thought I was the seer.

Hard to say, which one.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

She may be a baddie laughing her head off, but I can't get behind her lynch now.

Trust me Inzil, if I was a baddie I totally wouldn't be laughing.

I'd really be tempted to vote for Volo, but it seems wrong to do so when he hasn't played in so long. I'm such a softie, I know.

It's the same with me, but I at least have the excuse of his vote for me. And he tends to be a bit eccentric sometimes.

Eomer could be a possibility for getting the push against Agan started. I think Volo looks worse than he does, though.

I could probably vote for him too. It would combine revenge and voting for a (thus far) non-substantial player nicely. Okay well I'm not revenge-voting per se, but I know he voted for an innocent which makes his vote either misguided or evil (or random, but you know what I mean ).

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Not really. Think again, and look at all you've said.

Excluding misunderstandings on both sides, I think Nog was pushing it a lot farther than necessary. I realised there were problems with my suggestion and said it aloud, but he kept pointing out stuff and making me look like I was trying to distract everyone on purpose.

[Kath]

Well we apparently know the lynch choices for toDay then! So I'll go look at their posts and then vote.

Agan - suggests the person stunned reveals. Interesting idea, it would narrow down possibilities ... does it end up revealing Gifteds though and thus helping the wolves more? Basically saying just don't forget TBW in case it comes back to bite you later. Takes against Glirdan as well. Her and wilwa as buddies sounds unlikely given that they both suspect him. Suspects Nog for twisting her words or at least continuing to misunderstand them. Says 'trust me' waaaay too much.

Wilwa - saw the downsides of having the stunned person reveal. Says focusing on TBW distracts from the more immediate danger of wolves and cobblers. Seems to have pretty clear and thought through reasons against Agan's revealing plan. I thought she was looking pretty good but then she takes against Glirdan for no reason I can particularly see.

Glirdan - says focus on the wolves and cobblers and let the less obviously dangerous Gifted's sort themselves out. Makes sense to me though in these early Days we're as likely to get one of them as we are anything else! Adapts Agan's TBW outing plan to work for cobblers.

Right, well. To be honest none of them seem desperately suspicious! I'd be more tempted to go for wilwa because to be honest I can't see the reasoning behind Glirdan being suspicious. He's doing stream-of-consciousness posting but it doesn't seem particularly guilt-ridden.

So:

++WILWA

Random aside: Ooh Pitch have I? When was that? Was it a reading or something?

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

7. LOOKING FURRY/PEACHY/SKELETAL
Lottie - leave the BW alone if we have a chance to lynch xem? No, no, and no again, and I can't see an innocent suggesting that if she's thought out the ramifications; could well be the BW herself, or a cobbler or wolf trying to keep the BW around as long as xe won't prevent any Night-kills.

What? No. Just, no. If we think we have TBW, don't lynch him right away. Let TB, whose job it is to kill xem, kill xem. If he doesn't for some reason, lynch him the next Day, but you will notice how we get an extra lynch and are one baddie down this way.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Lottie. I don't really like her insistence that we shouldn't try to lynch the BW. Pitch has a good point against her, but I haven't seen enough from her (apart from BW talk) to have a real opinion.

Insistance? Really? I was around at the very beginning of the Day. I haven't had time to really insist anything! You should remember what my insisting looks like. This isn't it.

Also: so, so sorry I'm so late. For some reason I was thinking DL was an hour later.

Brief list: I feel good about Nog, Glirdy, and Vanilwuffin. I feel not-so-good about Agan and Pitchie, but mostly just because they've been silly about TBW. Also Volo, but I've never played with him, so...meh.

EDIT: xed since Pitchie

[Pitchwife]

Let me just say Form's vote was crap. Lynch one of the players who've made most sense toDay, really? At best, it was uninFormed.

I see no urgent reason to lynch Nog or Volo yet, I'm torn about Agan but I think I like her response to suspicion and would like to keep her around, and I'm having second thoughts about Lottie thanks to wilwa (plus she's not around to explain herself). So falling back on my second-best option
++Glirdan

EDIT: x-ed #105 down

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Done with page 2, and figured I should post as it's getting near deadline.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I agree with this. If the Barrow-Wight isn't on our side, she's (potentially) against us, and I'd much rather we didn't have to worry about her in the later stages when it really matters whether she plays for us or for the wolves.

What on earth? There's no incentive for the Barrow-Wight to play for us at all, because we cannot win until the Barrow-Wight has been ousted - therefore classifying the Barrow-Wight as even "possibly" helpful makes no sense at all. I'm not sure who looks worse for bringing this point up at all - Inzil (who brought it up in the first place) or Agan (who took it and ran with it).

Originally Posted by Pitch

OK, to business. As for the cobblers, we've had this discussion any number of times, and the big problem is, as always, that it's not so easy to tell cobblerish evil from wolvish evil. TEW has a point that they would very likely prefer not to be lynched (or Night-killed*, for that matter) before they've had a chance to communicate, but then again, I think a good cobbler won't mind to be lynched in order to save who he thinks is a wolf, especially when there's two of them. On the wolves' side, we can't count on them being visibly protective of their packmates either - some will, others won't hesitate to bus one another, it really depends on the player. So the long and short of it is, if it looks suspicious, lynch it and we'll find out what it was.

Long, long post to say exactly what others have already said. I don't trust it, I don't.

Originally Posted by Wilwa

Bad idea. First of all if he chooses an Ordo they won't know they were chosen since they don't have to do anything at Night,

Don't Ordos still get a PM saying "you are stunned"? I could have sworn that was in the rules somewhere... Oh, Agan has already mentioned this. Nevermind then.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I was looking at this and I do like this plan. My only issue with it is, even the TBW is totally playing for himself, the Wolves might find a way of using it to their advantage. But on the flip side of that coin, there stands the chance that we could catch a Wolf trying to do just that.

How, precisely? Tom Bombadil looking for the BW has nothing to do with the Wolves, as far as I can tell, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Originally Posted by Agan

I'm not saying the BW should be our priority and we need to worry about her more than about the wolves & cobblers, what I'm saying is that we shouldn't forget and ignore her just because she might choose to side with us

And again, why would the BW side with us when they know we want them gone (and have to get them gone in order to win)?

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I was trying to figure out if there was anyway that we could use your voting plan to try help us oust the Cobblers

Yes, but I notice you have yet to say 'how', even if you've since dropped this 'plan'.

Originally Posted by Volo

The hunches won't be much more educated than a basic Ordo's, but the ability to stun might give more insight, nothing certain, of course, but nevertheless, if we could kill a Cobbler quietly during the Night, it would surely be an advantage.

Quite a lot of people talking about 'might' with nothing to back them up. And what's this about 'we'? As far as I know, innocents don't kill anything "quietly during the Night".

Originally Posted by Agan

I really don't like sally's vote and her reasons behind it. It's basically just repeating what others have said, and it doesn't even make sense.

I'm pulling a Lottie here and saying that people saying other people's votes for them "don't make sense" reeks of baddie-ism. But then again it is Agan, who's evil even when she's not.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Excluding misunderstandings on both sides, I think Nog was pushing it a lot farther than necessary. I realised there were problems with my suggestion and said it aloud, but he kept pointing out stuff and making me look like I was trying to distract everyone on purpose.

Aren't you now playing yourself a bit better than you are Aganzir? That "revealing the gifteds" stuff was hastily made by me (I did get carried away with my realisation you had to be the cobbler), but I still would hate a kind of universal deal that those stunned should reveal themselves as for a gifted that would be a really tight spot - and not good for us. (Argued that earlier)

But I still think you tried to divert our discussion into those "grandiose-plans" which would have required everyone's consent - and if they had gotten just a bit more air under their wings we would have used the whole Day into them. And that would have been counter-productive indeed.

It's D1 and all that and we need to discuss something, but not on a grand plan (well, two of them) requiring everyone's acceptance and consent which you know very well we will never reach!!!

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Loslote

If we think we have TBW, don't lynch him right away. Let TB, whose job it is to kill xem, kill xem. If he doesn't for some reason, lynch him the next Day

I still don't think it's quite that simple, but I won't start arguing about it 15 minutes before the deadline.

I haven't had time to really insist anything! You should remember what my insisting looks like. This isn't it.

Hahaha that's true! Yeah maybe insistence was a bit too strong a word.

I don't know what to think of the fact that I disagree with Lottie on almost everyone.

Eomer - Agan
Glirdan - wilwa
Volo - Agan 2
sally - Agan 3
Greenie - Glirdan
wilwa - Glirdan 2
Form - wilwa 2
Kath - wilwa 3
Pitch - Glirdan 3

Left: Agan, Zil, Lottie, Nerwen, Nogrod, Shasta, EW

[Boromir88]

10 minutes remaining. Final stretch!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kath

Agan - suggests the person stunned reveals. Interesting idea, it would narrow down possibilities ... does it end up revealing Gifteds though and thus helping the wolves more? Basically saying just don't forget TBW in case it comes back to bite you later. Takes against Glirdan as well. Her and wilwa as buddies sounds unlikely given that they both suspect him. Suspects Nog for twisting her words or at least continuing to misunderstand them. Says 'trust me' waaaay too much.

I also have a tendency to be wary of anyone in this game who says "trust me".

Originally Posted by Kath

Wilwa - saw the downsides of having the stunned person reveal. Says focusing on TBW distracts from the more immediate danger of wolves and cobblers. Seems to have pretty clear and thought through reasons against Agan's revealing plan. I thought she was looking pretty good but then she takes against Glirdan for no reason I can particularly see.

Well, she did somewhat explain it, I think. And he also voted her for what he said was no reason at all.

Ok. Fine.

For lack of other options:

++Glirdan

I can't bring myself to vote Volo toDay, and Glirdan has the random vote for Wilwa and something of a nervy edge to his posts.

x/d with the last four

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

And again, why would the BW side with us when they know we want them gone (and have to get them gone in order to win)?

I misunderstood the conditions for her winning. You can basically ignore those posts...

But then again it is Agan, who's evil even when she's not.

Eomer - Agan
Glirdan - wilwa
Volo - Agan 2
sally - Agan 3
Greenie - Glirdan
wilwa - Glirdan 2
Form - wilwa 2
Kath - wilwa 3
Pitch - Glirdan 3
Zil - Glirdan 4

Left: Agan, Lottie, Nerwen, Nogrod, Shasta, EW

[Loslote]

Three way tie, and I'm not particularly pleased with any of the possibilities. I will vote Agan to save Vanilwuffin and Glirdy, if I have to, simply because I think they're innocent (as far as you can be sure of anyone on Day 1) and I don't trust Agan. But I don't really suspect Agan, either, so I'd prefer not to lynch her, either...not-so-very-lovely.

EDIT: xed with Zil and Agan

[Aganzir]

Shasta any idea who you're going to vote for?

And Nerwen & EW too, if they for some reason happen to be here...?

[Nogrod]

If Agan is the cobbler - as I think she is - then this will tell us a lot toMorrow.

So wilwa and Pitchie are wolves together?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Shasta any idea who you're going to vote for?

And Nerwen & EW too, if they for some reason happen to be here...?

Honestly I'm having a tough time deciding between you and Glirdan. You, my dear, have said some things that just raise my hackles, but Glirdan has said several things that make me think he was trying to appear 'useful', but then didn't back them up (at least to my knowledge). I have three minutes to think, though, thank goodness!

[Aganzir]

++Glirdan

I find him suspicious enough, and I'd rather not die myself.