Shadow of the West Discussion Thread

[Firefoot]

So come inside and make yourself comfortable. Be sure to pay attention to who is there ahead of you (or not), and as with the Inns, strike up conversations and begin those plot-lines!

I have a question then. The Queen sent word to the Prince and Princess to join her for the 'entrance'. When will this be - once people have drifted in for the banquet? I am assuming so, since it wouldn't be much of an entrance if there wasn't anyone there to witness it...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Let's split the difference:

Faroz is already in his private garden, Bekah is on her way there to meet him. Let's say that the family will make their grand entrance from that garden (that is, the King's private garden has a door into the banquet hall for use by the royal family only).

So how's this: the royal family meets in the garden, everyone else heads for the banquet hall. When the crowd is there, the royal family will come in.

Note: the Emissary is wandering around the courtyard waiting for people to arrive. Can someone (not in the family) be sure to 'bring him along' and get him into the banquet hall? You can chat with him and invite him to sit with you, but he will inform you that he has been asked by the King to sit with him, so he will loiter about the hall until the royal entrance, perhaps chatting with others as you all wait?

Another Note: Bb has given us a nice look into his mind, but let's keep such things to a minimum -- he is, after all, supposed to be a figure of mystery to the Pashtians.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Bb has PMed me to say that she has once more edited her latest post to make it clear that the Emissary is NOT wearing the Ring -- so he's not quite ready to go that far yet apparently!

[Novnarwen]

I just posted.

Kransha and Aman - I hope I have handled your characters appropriately. If I haven't, please tell me and I will edit.

Nova

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

More Housekeeping.

Things were getting confusing for me about who was sitting where and doing what so I'm glad that the Chamberlain Jarult has clarified the situation a bit for us all!

It appears as though the royal table is set: King Faroz, Queen Bekah, the Emissary, General Morgos and Arlome. Siamak and Gjeelea are apparently free to sit there or not.

The table next to the royal table has Zamara and Tarkan, so it would appear as though there's lots of room left there.

EDIT -- I've pieced this together from the previous posts of myself and Bethberry. If there's something wrong with it, please do let me know.

[Amanaduial the archer]

Why not place Korak and Arshalous facing each other on the table of the Priest and Priestess? Could prove interesting...*wicked smile* Imladris, Nuru, how would you feel about that?

[Imladris]

Imladris, Nuru, how would you feel about that?

*rubs hands evilly* Excellent...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

With apologies to Oro I (or maybe it was Jarult) forgot that Evrithol was to sit at the royal table with his parents Morgos and Arlome. I have edited my last post in include Morgos "and his family".

As to the Emissary -- he is now with that large group of characters: feel free to chat with him as you wish.

[Firefoot]

I made the royal family's entrance and got everyone seated. I hope everything's all right with the seating arrangement at the table, etc. I wasn't sure whether Pashtians said any kind of prayer or some such before they ate, so I didn't go that far...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

I wasn't sure whether Pashtians said any kind of prayer or some such before they ate, so I didn't go that far...

I don't know if they do either -- maybe one of the next posters will let us know!

Reminder to All -- Pashtians eat at low tables without chairs, they recline on cushions and bolsters. Also, tables are round so there is technically no 'head' of the table, but for the Royal Table it makes sense that there would be a spot of significance reserved for the King that we can call 'the head'

[Kransha]

Speaking of table manners, I have a few obligatory questions which I think it might be appropriate to pose here on this thread.

On the matter of food: what fauna and flora, besides that already mentioned, is edible or important in Pashtia. Obviously some meat is eaten, but is the wildlife in Pashtia (not in Kanak, I assume) reminiscent of wildlife in the Persian Gulf? Would there be any particular manners, utensils, or other objects on the table, or ought we to improvize and be creative as far as such things go?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Kransha

Speaking of table manners, I have a few obligatory questions which I think it might be appropriate to pose here on this thread.

On the matter of food: what fauna and flora, besides that already mentioned, is edible or important in Pashtia. Obviously some meat is eaten, but is the wildlife in Pashtia (not in Kanak, I assume) reminiscent of wildlife in the Persian Gulf? Would there be any particular manners, utensils, or other objects on the table, or ought we to improvize and be creative as far as such things go?

Good questions. Obviously, as with all aspects of the game I want us to find these sorts of things out as we go, but I do have some ideas of my own, since you ask

I've already said that Pashtians eat a diet high in grains and vegetables. I doubt they eat any kind of dairy other than yoghurt (the heat would not do milk any favours). They probably have some kind of beer and wine. I suspect they eat a lot of fish, as they live in the fertile plains between three mighty river systems. Kanak is also not too far from the sea and vessels from their port are able to sail to the ocean along the river in less than a day -- so probably lots of seafood.

The one thing I suppose that's important is that this culture be different from those of the West, so I would think that the absence of chairs probably means the absence of utensils: everything is finger food. It's also probably pretty spicy.

(Anyone getting an idea of my personal favourite kind of cuisine yet?)

At any rate, I'm actually a little happy to see things slowing down a tad after something of an insane beginning. That having been said, I don't want you all to feel that you have to wait to start posting about the dinner. If there's things you want to say to somebody else, or stuff you want to to, then go for it.

NOTE In addition to the food, what sort of entertainments are there in the hall? Can't wait to see.

[Bêthberry]

Stepping in as Moderator here:

I notice that Orofaniel posted a save Friday night and said it would be filled by the ubiquitous "tomorrow" but it is still not filled in and it is now nearly Sunday midday (by BD site time).

This game requires that gamers take their ideas and cues from the preceding posts. Thus it is even more important that if at all possible saves not be used. I have asked Fordim, as the Game Founder, to decide if he thinks saves are workable in this game and how long they should be allowed to stand unfilled.

For now, Oro, please fill in that save today.

Thanks for a speedy response,
Bêthberry

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I had been pondering the issue of saves in this game -- and had not really achieved any resolution for myself. I'm glad that our esteemed Mod has stepped in.

I think it might be best if we do NOT have saves in the game, as we do need to keep things moving forward, rather than back. That having been said, if you do need to go back, we can still do that in one of two ways:

1) a flashback sequence, or remembering something that happened earlier -- my preferred method as it will allow a character to cover ground, but to focus on the present action

2) if it's imperative that there be a post inserted earlier in the action, then we can ask someone to insert it at the end of their post at the logical point.

My apologies for not working this through earlier, particularly to Oro.

[Bêthberry]

Oro, please clear out your mailbox so you can accept PMs. Thanks.

Bêthberry,
Moderator for Rohan

[Orofaniel]

I apologise.

I didn't know saves were unwanted. When I put up that save I didn't know that I had to work over time either....So, I'm sorry.

Repeating myself; I’ll get a grip, I promise.

Beth- PM box is cleared.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Thanks for filling in the save Oro, and don't sweat it -- me bad for not thinking through the issues around SAVEs before we began.

Important Note to All: The Emissary is known to the people of Pashtia only as "The Emissary", for the Lord Annatar does not allow his messengers to use their names. The name Ashnaz was one that he said Faroz could use in their private conversations. Please everybody (yeah, that's right, I'm looking at you Aman ) have your posts refer to "the Emissary" only. . .unless of course he gives you another 'personal' name for your character's use.

[Amanaduial the archer]

Hey, don't name-call or anything! Psh...

Apologies, Fordim - I thought it would be a general name for which the Emissary was known from then on. My mistake - I'll edit accordingly.

[alaklondewen]

Ooh, interesting twist, Master Fordim...I can't wait to see what happens.

With that said, I am leaving today for Thanksgiving and will not be able to post until Friday or Saturday when I return. All I ask is that if action takes a change-of-location turn, that Arlomë is not forgotten. Other than that, use her as you will until my return.

Have a nice holiday!

Alak

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

As things seem to have slowed down a bit in the game (and that's all for the best) I think it might be time to think about moving the plot forward a bit.

To that end, I will be advancing time to the following morning (game time) on Thursday morning (real time). Please note that I am doing this according to the model provided by the Inns -- time will be advancing to the following day, but what happens before and after the advance is up to everyone.

I figure that the US Thanksgiving has been keeping some people busy, and that everyone has been catching their collective breaths after a rambunctious start. Still, we don't want to lose our incredible momentum.

So anyone who wants to get in a last-minute banquet post should do so soon. I, myself, will be putting up a late-night-after-banquet post sometime on Wednesday afternoon, so if you want to move out of the banquet and toward night, that would be very helpful to me.

Finally, a request: some players have done a nice job of introducing some plot twists. . .could we get in a few more this week? Any plots to be hatched??

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Time moving forward

As promised, it is now the next morning in Kanak, principle city of Pashtia. There are some appointments already set for the day: the Emissary and Faroz will be spending some time together before the mid-day meal, and Gjeelea and Siamak will be visiting with their mother at lunch. In the afternoon, Siamak and the Emissary have an appointment -- have I missed anything?

It might be a good idea to look a bit further ahead right now, too. The game is slated to cover a year or so in the history of Pashtia so there should be at least a few good time jumps coming up. I'm not sure when and how long the first big jump should be, and I do not propose that we can or should settle that immediately, as we need to see where the story takes us -- but I would ask that everyone start thinking about this.

Also, with a new day comes new possibilities. We've explored the life and space of the Palace pretty well, but there's a whole city (not to mention a kingdom) beyond those walls: perhaps some of us will have business or pleasure to pursue in the wider world?

Just want to say again how much I'm enjoying the game so far. Every time I log on to the Downs I eagerly look for new posts to the game thread.

[Bêthberry]

Just another note to your good list, Fordim, about upcoming events. Bekah has also requested a meeting with Zamara, the High Priestess, in the afternoon. She invited Tarkan as well, but he declined. "He" should feel free, however, to show up if "he" decides to change his mind. Neither Aman nor Nova need think that I have to start this meeting. The same goes for the meeting with Bekah and the Royal Children. Either Firefoot or Aylwen can start the meeting off.

Wonderful post, Fordim about the ring and very good catch there, Aman. I won't say a word about the nefarious alliance which Firefoot and Kransha are developing.

[Bêthberry]

Just a quick acknowledgement that I snuck in an edit to my post of last night, which everyone should be aware of.

I have added a small scene of Bekah with Nuru's and Immy's characters. I have taken the liberty *coughcough* of naming Lord Korak's mother and integrating the family slightly more with palace affairs. This, I hope, will set up some more scenes for them. Bekah too! I don't want her holed up in the palace all day.

[Firefoot]

I went ahead and brought Siamak to Bekah's apartments. Now Gjeelea just needs to show up.

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

Gjeelea has joined the queen and prince. Sorry that it was such a quick post - I'm off to do a lot of Christmas shopping and I didn't want to hold you guys up for the rest of the night.

Great posts everyone, if I may say so...

-Aylwen

[Kransha]

Hullo, again.

Firstly, I want to make an apology to everyone about the length of my post, which may impede the reading of it. I tried to delete unnecessary stuff, but couldn't do much with it without making it seem very disjointed. If you'll all accept that apologye, especially Fordim and Bb, then I'll proceed with a few questions.

Fordim: Your initial post said that Pashtia was small, but it does still have numerous little towns, I hope. I've invented one, called Durvelt, if you don't mind. Also, I made the assumption that there are nomadic tribes that roam the Great Desert, lesser peoples that prey off merchants and the like. Since you said we could run with such idea, I did.

[Novnarwen]

Hi everyone!

First.. I really enjoy reading everyone's posts! Really awesome!

Second ... I must apologise for my 'absence'. I'm aware that I haven't posted for almost 2 weeks. I have been quite busy, and there has been less time for computer than usual. The next weeks or so won't be any better, which brings me to my ‘issue’.

I don't mean to complain, but I ask you to understand that it's quite difficult for me to post as frequent as I would like to, especially since I'm not allowed to put up saves. When I'm first on the Internet, I have to read through all the new posts, (which are all fantastic) but by then, my time is nearly up. For me, a save now and then would really help, because I could come back to it the next day after having been able to think it through for a day, which would make it easier for me to write when I have little time to my disposal. I would also not have to spend all my time reading 5-6 posts that were posted when I was sleep …

When I'm not allowed to put up saves, I'm caught in this evil circle (Okay, not at all evil.. but you understand my point, or so I hope) where I have to read first and then after I have done that, my time is up again. You see, I seldom have time for both.. I know that you've said that flashbacks and such could work to catch up with earlier events that my character possibly has missed, but I can't do that every time.

I can't possibly see how a save can hurt, especially not at this point. I know you're afraid of losing the 'flow' (Is that it? ) in the game, but currently Tarkan is too busy thinking of himself and being with Pelin that it would not, as I see it, affect other people's posting.

Cheers,
Nova

PS! Just to make it clear .... I have posted now..

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Kransha

Fordim: Your initial post said that Pashtia was small, but it does still have numerous little towns, I hope. I've invented one, called Durvelt, if you don't mind. Also, I made the assumption that there are nomadic tribes that roam the Great Desert, lesser peoples that prey off merchants and the like. Since you said we could run with such idea, I did.

Very nicely done Kransha! An intriguing new plot twist, a better view of Kanak beyond the Palace walls, and some more details about Pastia. Wonderful!

Nova: I can truly sympathise -- this game is a bit demanding, but so rewarding! I would like to at least try to stand by the No Save Rule (which I admit, I have chafed against myself from time to time!); it works very well in the Inns, so I think it can work here.

That having been said, I am more than amenable to allowing people to send posts to me for inclusion 'earlier' in the thread. I can paste them into the end of one of my posts, or someone else can do that -- I even think it's possible to insert whole new posts(?).

The reason I wanted to keep saves out of here is not so much to do with "flow" as it has to do with making writing posts after the Save rather difficult. If I want to write a scene in which the King bumps into Tarkan, but I know that there's a Tarkan save above mine, I have a hard time knowing what to write. What if you are preparing a post in which Tarkan goes swimming or something?

But Everyone -- what is our position on Saves to be? If there is a general consensus that we should reinstate the save, then we can do that (although I will be brutal in policing the 24 hour rule for filling them, and you will be expected to give a brief description of what the post will be about). My primary concern here is that I don't want any one writer to feel as though she or he is at some kind of disadvantage, or not able fully to enjoy this game. So let me know what you're thinking!

[Bêthberry]

posted by Fordim
That having been said, I am more than amenable to allowing people to send posts to me for inclusion 'earlier' in the thread. I can paste them into the end of one of my posts, or someone else can do that -- I even think it's possible to insert whole new posts(?).

I asked this of Mithadan once, when we were using the old UBB software and he said not even Admins could create or insert 'back' posts like that. I doubt this new software would allow it, as we now have numbered posts. And, anyway, I'm not sure that such an answer is really much different from the main issue with saves. It would amount to including a back post which is for most purposes irrelevant to the posts which come after it. It would not reflect interactive gaming, but rather would be 'writing backwards' rather than forwards. I'm not saying I wouldn't do it for people, but I would caution against using it too heavily.

I would like to chime in with Fordim on the need to avoid SAVES in this game particularly. Let's check the guidelines for Rohan games in The Golden Hall:

Because gamers have shown in The Shire that they understand the basics of plot and game structure, Rohan gamers can be trusted to understand how to game using intelligent interaction and spontaneity, developing posts from previous posts rather than relying on extensive pre-planning. This does not mean that Rohan games revert to wacky, nonesensical freestyle games but that they allow gamers more creativity in developing the game as it goes along. Rohan games do not need to have a set system of posting order but rely more on interactive reactions among all gamers.

This game lives and breathes on the interaction of its characters. Even if a character is "off doing his own thing", he could well be providing something for another character to spin off from. Just take a look at the first three paragraphs of Kransha's latest post. It spells trouble for Firefoot's character even though those paragraphs are pure reminiscence.

I too can sympathise with Nova's predicament, as I myself have thought a save would come in handy. But let's remember again the Rohan guidelines:

Post at a minimum two times weekly for a major character, once weekly for a minor character, or as required for a cameo character, and read both the game and discussion threads at least every two days in order to keep informed of the game's events. (Posting speed can be discussed among gamers before a game starts and a consensus on posting speed can be reached. However, once this decision is reached, gamers are expected to follow it conscientiously. Games which don't move are not fun to read or play in.)

Notify the game founder on the discussion thread of any absences as far in advance as possible. Gamers who are absent longer than two weeks without any notification before the absence begins will have their character/s assumed by the Game Founder. Such characters can be written out of the game or handled at the Game Founder's discretion.

This is a very busy time of year for everyone, but please, if you cannot keep up the pace, let Fordim know. Give him or another gamer some ideas about how they can carry your character for you, even just temporarily.

On the other hand, I can also sympathise with Nova's point that there is a lot of reading to do in this tremendous game. Part of that comes from our habit of writing long posts. But let me remind everyone of what the expectations are. Again, this is from The Golden Hall.

Because Rohan gamers are confident writers, their posts reflect an awareness of the readers' need for detail and exposition to help them imagine the game's situation and of pacing, of balancing all details into a smooth, coherent unity. Usually, Rohan posts are two to four paragraphs long unless there is a clear benefit in terms of the story for a shorter post. Gamers may be required to make a case for a short post on the discussion thread. Gamers should also remember that exceptionally long posts can tax readers unless they make significant use of the details and formation to forward either plot or character.

That's right. Two to four paragraphs. That should represent one topic or idea. This is a particularly good thing to remember as we are getting into some interesting scenes where characters are discussing ideas in depth. There is nothing wrong with having your character set out a particular approach or idea, and then leaving the post at that, expecting the Game Player of the other character to pick up the thread of the conversation. (This is, in fact, how I envision the morning meeting between Bekah and the two Royal Children. I'm not sure what Firefoot and Aylwen think of this; I have to see their reactions to my next post. )

Posts which contain more than one topic run the risk of being exceptionally long, even if they are finely written and contain some brilliant set up of subplots. Yes, Kransha, you know I am talking about your post, even with your apology here. You could easily have cut that into four posts, spaced out between other Game Player's posts. Please, in future, don't restrict your hyperdrive imagination, but pace it better in the interests of other gamers.

Now, don't take this as meaning I expect to see posts of only two to four paragraphs. I'm sure you all know just how big a pinch of salt to take with this. And I'm sure everyone realises I would have handled this in PM had the topic of length not already been brought up on the DT.

I hope this provides some ideas and suggestions for how we can still avoid saves, as Fordim wishes while accomodating the needs of gamers who need more time to keep up.

Does this make sense?

[Amanaduial the archer]

Sorry...generally, my posts are about, what, three quarters of an A4 word processed page long? They vary from this length to about three pages - even on the Green Dragon, they're rarely shorter than half a page. Forgive me if I'm wrong but...are you saying we should make shorter posts?

Sorry if I'm wrong here

[Bêthberry]

My darling Aman, please reread this:

posted by Bethberry:
Now, don't take this as meaning I expect to see posts of only two to four paragraphs. I'm sure you all know just how big a pinch of salt to take with this.

I simply meant to remind everyone that posts of Tolstoyian epic proportions are not essential in this game or any Rohan game (and they can, in fact, impede a game). If people are having trouble posting because of time constraints, they should remember that they don't have to write huge, long, multi-paragraph posts. Short ones which adequately cover a topic will always do in a pinch.

[Novnarwen]

Please note: I have nothing against long posts! If I could rep Kransha's long posts ten times in a row, I would. ( ) It's just, when you're not allowed to put up saves, long posts don't make it better. That doesn't mean, however, that I don't like long posts, or dislike everyone who writes long posts!!!! So, please, if you got the impression of me not liking, or approving, of long posts in my previous reply, then I have expressed myself vaguely, and I apologise for that.

As for saves.. I respect the decision you have made (make ?) regarding the issue. I must say though, that this makes it difficult for me to contribute to this game in a way I wanted to from the start..

Nova

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

Question: Would Gjeelea be allowed to rule if she had no husband? Or, if, by some turn of events she were widowed (*evil grin*)?

-Aylwen

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Aylwen Dreamsong

Question: Would Gjeelea be allowed to rule if she had no husband? Or, if, by some turn of events she were widowed (*evil grin*)?

-Aylwen

Yes -- if she were named heir. . . Why do you ask? *innocent tone*

[Bêthberry]

I had hoped to have time to write a post but alas I do not. I will be out of town this weekend without computer access. Feel free Firefoot and Aywlen or even Alak to devise a post and carry Bekah.

[Firefoot]

I will be away for Christmas from Wednesday the 22nd to Tuesday the 28th. I should have computer access, but I don't know if I will be able to get a post up for the Game thread. I plan to have a post up today, and another before I leave. Aylwen - this falls over a time period in which Siamak and Gjeelea will probably be meeting with the Emissary, so how do you want to work it? I could start it off before I go.

[Aylwen Dreamsong]

Firefoot - that sounds fine to me, if it's not inconvenient for you to start things off. We can go as far as we can before you leave and see how it works while you're gone, carry Siamak along and whatnot.

Have fun for Christmas!

-Aylwen

[Orofaniel]

Sorry for the long wait, but my post which was "under construction" is now finished.

[Novnarwen]

Due to Oro completing her post, I thought it would be better if I divided my own post (the one above Kransha's latest) into two short posts. There is some new stuff in there though, in both the 'old' and the new. Please let me know if they need edits!

I hope everyone is having a grand Holiday!

Nova

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

First, Nova and Oro, I just wanted to say how well you both handled your recent posts: the "under construction" did not last too long, and you integrated the results very nicely.

Now, on to other issues:

As I said a while back, time will be moving forward very soon, I hope as soon as late next week. I'd like to send things forward by about a month in Pashtia, but I don't know how this is going to work for everyone. . .

If this is OK, then there are a few plots going on right now that need to be 'wrapped up' before the jump. So far as I can tell, these are:

1) the panic in the palace over the disappearance of Faroz

2) the meeting of Zamara, Tarkan and Bekah; Zamara revealing news of the 'demon' and asking for an escort to investigate; is Arlome going to join them?

3) conversation between Morgos and Siamak(?); Evrathol going to arrive(?)

4) Korak meeting with Gjeelea to discuss a date for their wedding(?)

Imladris: the Emissary is going to head back to his villa -- the the Lady Arshlous wanted to ask him about his god sooner rather than later, she can go by there. Just a suggestion.

At any rate, let me know if the proposed jump in time is convenient, if it's too much or too little, whatever.