Annoying Amateurs

[bilbo_baggins]

Because, Etharius: (As the title says) They're Annoying! There are some who you can't run away from, and confront you with multitudes of plagiaristic believings and false ideas. They are the ones we wish didn't not show off their fake knowledge and untrue wisdom so flagrantly. That's what this thread is about, discussing "Annoying Amatuers", and there is a point to the discussion.

And it's not that we care about what they do or don't know, it's that they show off prominently that they know exactly nothing more than the name of the book, it's author, and a character name or two. When they spread false ideas, it's not kind to other Tolkien-fans, and it's discouraging to interested young ones who would like to know more.

[Gil-Galad]

I agree with bilbo, this thread is about the annoying amateurs that think they know everything about lotr's just by watching the movie, it'll be like "hey , are you smart at lord of the rings?" "yah! i've seen every movie like 7 times!" "okay... prove it!" "fine, ask me a question, i'll get it right!" "who was Tom Bombadil?"
"tom bombadilaidapo? who the **** is that? you loser ask me some real questions"...............that is basically what most things happen with amateurs, and it is our privlege nay, duty to point them out and laugh at them wit ha deep HA HA HA, you know, from your diaphram. its better to be a tolkien know-it-all then just a little man that watches the movies and remembers every line they say. well that is my little speech, that'll cost yah 20 thousand each! good day!



must...dance...the...night...away...hey a nickel!

[nynnd1]

huhrrah for Gil-Galad, probably the best and most truthful point anyone has ever said!

[Olorin_TLA]

I know someone who, when I pointed out that Uruk-hai weren't gronw like potatoes as PJ shows them, actually said that I and Tolkien must be wrong, and got uber-aggresive. Riiiight...

[Olorin_TLA]

Also, though non-book readers can't be blamed, it's annoying when a book-lover wuotes a line that was changedin the film, from the film. It's like the book was erased from their memories...

[Laitoste]

My personal opinion on this is that we are all, technically, amateurs. Unless someone else is getting paid to be here. Then I want to know why THEY are and I'M not. Because that's not fair.

Anyway, I've been here since November (2003), and I still consider myself to be an amateur. I've read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings countless times. I still consider myself an amateur. I've read The Silmarillion a couple of times (and didn't understand a word of it until I heard the book-on-tape ). I still consider myself an amateur. Why? Because I don't know HALF as much as I could. I can "show off" my knowledge to random people, but I don't know that much. I can correct people (nicely) when they make a mistake.

I, fortunatly, have not had much of an experience with "annoying" amateurs. The only ones I know are my brother and my cousin, and they just say stupid stuff to make me angry. And when people do try to show off with false facts, I don't think that it's our place to criticize them. Yes, they are being stupid, and I know that it must be fun to make them look bad, but it doesn't make us look any better to insult them. I firmly believe that this creates a bad image for all of us. Eventually, these people will move on to something else, and will annoy other people. The people who really care will be around in a few years, not those. They will be selling their DVD's at garage sales. Ignore them. But do keep posting their antics here. It's really quite fascinating. Just be polite.

[Iaurhirwen]

The other day I got into this conversation with a good friend of mine about the pronunciation of Sméagol. The're quite intelligent and having studied French for 2 years was in the process of saying to someone else that it is 3 sylablles and not 2.

Having heard that (I have this ability to detect anything LOTR related in an instant, anyone else have this uncanny ability? ) I promptly proceeded to tell them that they were mistaken and that it was only 2. They kept insisting that because there was an accent mark, there were 3 syllables.

After a few minutes of my trying to explane the basis of his name in terms of its Old English roots and her still insisting there were 3 syllables she finally said, "I shouldn't be arguing with you, you know more about LOTR than I do."

Not quite an A-A gripe, but it is quite funny when someone thinks they have the right answer when they don't. I think it's our job to correct those common things that we know people get wrong, like the whole Arwen/Glorfindel thing and the "love triangle" between Arwen/Aragorn/Eowyn.

I am always glad to meet people who are new to LOTR and help them when they are stuck. I don't profess to know everything about LOTR, it's quite impossible really, but for those of us who have read the books and understand them, we have the ability to help and should do so, without sounding and being snobbish, of course.

Sorry for my rant. I do that sometimes when I'm hyper.

[Gil-Galad]

One thing that is "newbish" is peeps saying that what they say about lotr is right, like this one kid says that a book called "peoples of middle earth", it says that Gil-Galad is Orodreths son, when Tolkien clearly wrote that he was Fingons, that kid said it was corrected in PoME, which wasn't written by tolkien, so how could they so-called correct it, if tolkien didn't even write it anywhere saying "oh yah, gil-galad is actually orodreths son, ignore about a couple of chapters saying its fingons....that really bugged me....sorry folks no dancing elf this time, but i do have BADGERS!!!(sorry badgers no work...gotta fix it...)



bye peeps, remember to keep on rocking in the free world!

[bilbo_baggins]

I liked your dancing Elf that other time, Gil-Galad! Too bad we can't have more of them!

And I do believe that Fingon was your daddy! (He is your daddy, isn't he?)

People, quote me on this: "Annoying Amatuers are, well, just that; Annoying!"

[Orominuialwen]

The other day I got into this conversation with a good friend of mine about the pronunciation of Sméagol. The're quite intelligent and having studied French for 2 years was in the process of saying to someone else that it is 3 sylablles and not 2.

Having heard that (I have this ability to detect anything LOTR related in an instant, anyone else have this uncanny ability? ) I promptly proceeded to tell them that they were mistaken and that it was only 2. They kept insisting that because there was an accent mark, there were 3 syllables.

After a few minutes of my trying to explane the basis of his name in terms of its Old English roots and her still insisting there were 3 syllables she finally said, "I shouldn't be arguing with you, you know more about LOTR than I do."

I pronounce it with 3 syllables, like smay-uh-goll, but whatever.

I once had an obnoxious girl who didn't even like LotR tell me that she couldn't remember Legolas' name, but she though he was hot, so she just called him "Arrow-Man."

I still consider myself an amateur, although hopefully not an annoying one. I hadn't read any of the books before I saw FotR, but I started reading them shortly after that, so I've only been a fan of LotR for a little more than two years. I've only been on the 'Downs for a bit less than a year, and I've only read some scattered bits of HoME. I think that it's perfectly fine to be an amateur, so long as you don't think you know everything.

[Tulkas the Mighty]

have this ability to detect anything LOTR related in an instant, anyone else have this uncanny ability?

Yeah it happens to me all the time.. Its kinda fun

[Lush]

What's with the ego-tripping on this thread at the expense of people who just can't be bothered to give a hoot underneath it all?

Some are annoying, yes, but nowhere near as annoying as those who know bloody everything and righteously stick it in your face, whether you asked them to or not.

Seriously, the mistakes that people make when talking about Tolkien can even be humorous at times. I knew a movies fan who was convinced that the name "Legolas" was somehow derived from "Lego" of the cute little building blocks fame. Hee hee.

[HerenIstarion]

by Gil-Galad

One thing that is "newbish" is peeps saying that what they say about lotr is right, like this one kid says that a book called "peoples of middle earth", it says that Gil-Galad is Orodreths son, when Tolkien clearly wrote that he was Fingons, that kid said it was corrected in PoME, which wasn't written by tolkien

I assume the kid mentioned was rather over advanced a bit, for PoME is part of HoME - precisely, its volume 12, and HoME itself stands for History of Middle Earth, and is collection (with editorial notes and analysis made by JRRT's son Christopher) of Tolkien's drafts and different versions of stories which stand behind and form the ground for LoTR. One of the drafts indeed names Orodreth as Gil-Galad's father. Orodreth is also constantly shifting positions from Finrod Felagund's brother to his son, mere kinsman and steward and back to brother.

HoME vXII,


The only further change was the rejection of the name Artaresto and its replacement by Artaher, Sindarin Arothir; and thus in the excursus (note 23) Arothir [Orodreth] is named as Finrod's 'kinsman and steward', and (note 47) Gil-galad is 'the son of Arothir, nephew of Finrod'. The final genealogy was


Angrod, brother of Finrod Felagund ----> Artaher/Arothir [Orodreth] ----> Artanaro/Rodnor/Gil-galad

But do not dispair - though there is no need to expunge such a version, there is no opposite obligation either to change the knowledge you were sticking to up to now. Just allow for yourself that there are several sources that state some facts differently.

by Lush

Some are annoying, yes, but nowhere near as annoying as those who know bloody everything and righteously stick it in your face, whether you asked them to or not

Did I just do that?

[Iaurhirwen]

Yeah, I actually looked up the pronunciation of Smeagol and its 2 syllables but, whatever.

One of the most annoying things I have found to arise lately is the number of internet quizzes that test you on your character compatability. There are some good ones out there but a majority of them are low class and very "newbee-ish." Especially the fangirl ones about which male character is your true love or whatever. I truely can't stand them.

[Gil-Galad]

so which would be correct? the silmarillion or PoME/HoME?

[bilbo_baggins]

Well, based on what he said, Gil-galad, I think you can go one way or another:

there is no opposite obligation either to change the knowledge you were sticking to up to now.

So, feel free to find your own father!

What's with the ego-tripping on this thread at the expense of people who just can't be bothered to give a hoot underneath it all?

Lush: I'm not sure I understand your comment; are you saying we should not be so down on the newbies, even the ones who are highly abrasive? The "annoying" ones are the ones who we dislike, and who we discuss on this thread.

[Esgallhugwen]

I would never make fun of the newbies who are trying to learn, I myself could probably be considered a newbie. I've only read LOR twice, The Silmarillion twice and the Hobbit twice (not including the graphic novel which is like a huge comic book of the Hobbit) But anyway, it is annoying when people claim to have read the books. Such as an ex- friend of my brothers (they're not friends for other reason than this). My brother asked him a question because he didn't believe his friend had actually read the books *just a note my bro hasn't read them either but knows enough from what I've told him, the little details and such* anyway I believe he asked him who Shelob was, or something to that effect, his friend replied that it was some bird or something. When my brother told him that was wrong that she was in fact a rather large spider he didn't belive him! Oh boy! and let me not forget he stated he couldn't wait for Tolkiens next LOR book to come out, sorry little boy I'm afraid he's no longer among the living, and LOR was meant to be a trilogy only.


I really hope i don't have the tendency to stick info in people's faces, I mean if their incorrect about something I will politely correct but sometimes they take that the wrong way, thinking I'm obsessed or trying to show off, its not like I just start going off on a tangent about all that is LOR. It sometimes makes me sad But ohwell thats what you guys are here for support!

[Lush]

Lush: I'm not sure I understand your comment; are you saying we should not be so down on the newbies, even the ones who are highly abrasive? The "annoying" ones are the ones who we dislike, and who we discuss on this thread.

No, by all means, carry on, kids. And adults. And those who fall in between.

I just find the whole "Revenge of the Nerds" feeling on this thread hilarious.

Myself being the most dedicated (two years and counting!) of nerds, naturally.

[mark12_30]

**cough** thirty **cough**

Ehh? What's that yew say, yew young whippersnapper? Ehhh???

...cough cough KACK ack wheeze cough....
**gropes for cane, hobbles toward wheelchair**

So, Lush m'babe, what did YOU have embroidered on your jeans thirty years ago?

**pokes cane accusingly at Lush**

Or to put it another way, whose eyeliner were you charmed by back then? Eh?? Ehhh??

*rocks meditatively in wheelchair, considering newly-thrown gauntlet, resolving that if anyone behaves as obnixiously as I did in high school AND junior high I'll beat the snot out of 'em with my cane**

[Gil-Galad]

....i'm offically scared now...

[Laitoste]

I second that, Gil-Galad...

I met a good "amateur" today. She enjoys the movies (Frodo fancier ) and she's in the middle of reading TTT. She's looking for The Silmarillion at the library. I said I'd help her read it (tough book, y'know, and I don't know that she'll like it), and guide her to sites like this. I'm so excited! I hope that she falls in love with it like I have. Then I'll have someone to talk to who I can see... I love the good newbies!

[ElberethVarda]

My brother always does that... and he hasn't seen the movies! He always is saying, "Legolas shoots his arrows so fast! It's so awesome!" He tries to seem like he knows more than people who have seen the movies. It's very annoying.

Originally Posted by Gil-Galad

One positive thing to this, before the thrid movie came out, i tricked like 5 girls that Legolas dies! ha ha that was fun...whew, if only i could have more moments like that...

*har har har* Let the posers suffer

[Gil-Galad]

they were not really posers....just ill-informed and gullible

[Gorwingel]

Anyway, I've been here since November (2003), and I still consider myself to be an amateur.

Heck, I've been here since December of 2002 and still, most definitely, consider myself an amateur.

And I am betting that I will always be an amateur just because I don't have the amazing ability to read through many of Tolkien's works once and instantly know everything about it (And also I get confused while reading The Book of Lost Tales, and have recently been too cheap to go out and buy Unfinished Tales).

But, hey, I'm still young. Most likely if I'm here in thirty years or so I will know everything. I am going by the read the Sil and LOTR (and maybe another Tolkien book) at least once a year kind of thing

And in addition I promise I will ask for The Unfinished Tales for Christmas

And also I have ran into many annoying amateurs. But I don't consider them annoying. I personally believe they are misguided

[Lathriel]

Although amateurs can be annoying it is funny to make them belive one of the characters dies.

My brothger used to be an amateur but then me and my mom made him so curious he read LOTR.

Now a few days ago he was talking to his friends and they believed that Celeborn had one of the three rings. My brother told them that they were wrong but they wouldn't believed him so he scanned a part of the page of the book where the answer was and brought it to school. He is becoming a LOTR nut without knowing it. YEEEEHHH

[Lachwen]

You know, there was a time not too long ago when I would have fallen into the "amatures" bin. Specifically, when I saw FotR for the first time. At that point, my total experience with Tolkien was reading The Hobbit once six years earlier. When I got home that night I started a fanfiction. It was BAD. But then I started reading the books and, well, lost all semblence of a social life. I never try to impose my knowledge of Tolkien stuff on people, but I do feel obligated to step in when someone is saying something patently WRONG (like inthe book "The History of Tolkien's Middle-earth For Dummies," when they misspelled Elladan's name as Ellahad I nearly died in the bookstore.). And my brother has been trying for over a year now to find a Tolkien trivia question that will stump me. I'm frightened because he's failing. I really need other interests...or do I??

have this ability to detect anything LOTR related in an instant, anyone else have this uncanny ability?

Oh, yeah. You know, maybe that explains my bad grade in math last year...

[Snowdog]

I know probaly everyone has heard of this before, but one thing that really annoys me after the movies came out was that people, who watched every movie like 7 times, think they no absolutly everything about LOTR. for example, if a iask them who was Tom Bombadil, they would say "theres no Tom Bombadil in LOTR" it really annoys me!

I LOVE annoying amateurs who are movie-only fans . I use book code sayings like 'See at the Forsaken Inn', or 'We'll meet again at the house of Tom Bombadil', or 'Next year in Annúminas'. So instead of letting these PJ annoyances bug me, I turn the tables and annoy them and make them feel they are missing out.

[Arwen Evenstar]

I have friends who have never read the books and some that have. I have persuaded some to read the books just by talking to my other friends who have read them about stuff in the books that were left out of the movie. Did that make sense?

[Sapphire_Flame]

So instead of letting these PJ annoyances bug me, I turn the tables and annoy them and make them feel they are missing out.

Exactly! Just throw out enough Silm and UT references (or even *gasp* truly basic LotR book references) and they get confused beyond all get out. 'Tis highly amusing.

I've been on the site since September 2002, and I still think of myself as an "amatur", and shall until I've read Silm and UT as many times as I've read The Hobbit (about 35), and until I've read HoME at least five times.

What I think is thoroughly annoying is how people seem incapable of telling the difference between Sindarin and Tengwar. [super sarcasm mode]Gee, a spoken language and an alphabet that any language can be written in! Wow, that is so hard to figure out! [/super sarcasm mode] I just find this extraordinarily frustrating because of how often I must explain it to the same people over and over again.

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Sauron_the_Abhorred]

My God, I have bad A. A.'s

Theres this one kid who knows I like Tolkien, and LotR, and he'll try to show off in front of me, but he's only seen the moveis, and he's awful with pronunciations. Heres a real example of what he'd say:

Hey *my name here*, do you like the part where Aragonen ( ) is all killing the big ents, and he, like falls of the cliff. And then he comes back to life, because his daughter(supposed to be Arwen) prays to God.

so I'll correct him, and he'll just stare at me, not knowing what I meant, and then he'll say: Dude, your wrong. So, anyway, how 'bout that part where Fraydo( ) and Sam get captured by that evil guy(faramir), and then the Ringollums(don't ask, but I think he means Ringwraiths) attack, and they are about to save Fraydo, but Sam turns evil for a while, and doesnt let them save Fraydo.

So I'll correct him again, and he'll say, Dude, you dont know crap 'bout Lord of the Rings, and I'll say, you dont know crap about it, and he starts crying, I swear to God, he starts crying-hes a HUGE baby.....AAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH death to that guy......


Ok, thanks. Namarië

[Kitanna]

Oh wow Sauron...that's...just wow. Did he really start crying? I'm trying hard not to laugh at that. I thought I knew some annoying people when it came to LOTR, but I can't compare to that.

So I know this girl and I created a monster because I made her come to the FOTR with me and she decided to read the books. And I swear everytime Legolas did something in the book she'd point it out (even though by this poit I had finished all three) and she was like he's so hot, blah blah blah. Not really an amaeture, but she was annoying. Just had to share that because she and all her annoying antics about LOTR are driving me insane.

[Sauron_the_Abhorred]

Well, he is that awful when it comes to LotR and Tolkien, and about him crying, well, he didn't cry, like, when I said that, we got in a small argument, but he does cry a lot, he is the BIGGEST BABY, AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...ok, got that outta my system....

Here's another example of me accidentally making him cry:

One time, in the science lab, my back-pack was in one of the sinks(we NEVER used those) and he accidentally turned the water on, which, of course, soaked my back-pack. I pulled it outta the sink, and yelled "Who did this" and he yelled back" I didn't do it on purpose", and he started bawling, I mean bad.... And I hadn't even blamed him, I just asked who did it.....

Ok, sorry for taking this of the subject.....

[Novberaid]

Yes, it is always easier to watch a movie than to put some time, effort and maybe a little research into finding out what JRR really wanted to reflect. I love the movies too, but there is so much more to be found.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Got the ultimate A.A.

I said to somebody who was saying how good the movies were that they should read the book. This person said, and I quote:

"I hate reading the book-versions of movies. The people they hire to turn the movies into the books never get it right."

[Kitanna]

That's horrible, but a friend of mine thought the same thing. I was telling her how things in the book were different and she goes "Oh I thought the book was based off the movie." I just laughed because she isn't really into LOTR, but it was still funny.

[Knight of Gondor]

Some are annoying, yes, but nowhere near as annoying as those who know bloody everything and righteously stick it in your face, whether you asked them to or not.

Perhaps you should start a thread about annoying experts.

Myself being the most dedicated (two years and counting!) of nerds, naturally.

I first read the books when I heard rumors of the movie, and I’ve been devoted ever since.

I second that, Gil-Galad...

I met a good "amateur" today. She enjoys the movies (Frodo fancier) and she's in the middle of reading TTT. She's looking for The Silmarillion at the library. I said I'd help her read it (tough book, y'know, and I don't know that she'll like it), and guide her to sites like this. I'm so excited! I hope that she falls in love with it like I have. Then I'll have someone to talk to who I can see... I love the good newbies!

“Newbies” like that are good! They’re not annoying. We were all newbies once upon a time.

And I am betting that I will always be an amateur just because I don't have the amazing ability to read through many of Tolkien's works once and instantly know everything about it (And also I get confused while reading The Book of Lost Tales, and have recently been too cheap to go out and buy Unfinished Tales).

Don’t worry, Gorwingel! I got a little bogged down in Lost Tales 1 and 2 too! I’m only now working through UT, but I like most the stories about Númenor and Gondor and Rohan and Arnor. All those Noldor and Atari and Atani and older Elven kingdoms, while still pretty cool (as in, the stories of Tuor and Beren etc.) are so ancient, and one can get lost between all the Elven kingdoms and kings and people. I think the story of Turin is one of the saddest and unhappy tales, I don’t know what foul mood brought Tolkien to write it. But what I mean is, I prefer some of the newer stories and got a little lost myself in the older. (“Newer” and “older” meaning in terms of Middle-Earth years) If you can make it through the Silmarillion, or the Appendices if RotK, you’re probably doing good.

Although amateurs can be annoying it is funny to make them belive one of the characters dies.

*Chuckles* Yes, it is, isn’t it?

Now a few days ago he was talking to his friends and they believed that Celeborn had one of the three rings.

Even the two friends he was talking to evidently had some surface knowledge, beyond that of your average movie-goer. If you told them about Celeborn, they’d probably go “who?”

You know, there was a time not too long ago when I would have fallen into the "amatures" bin. Specifically, when I saw FotR for the first time.

Of course, we already discussed this to some extent in What Does it Take to be a Tolkien Expert, or something along those lines. No one blames anyone for being an “amateur” at all. The term is even open and subject to interpretation. What irritates us is people who pretend to know more than they do.

My parents are what you might call annoying. They care (a little) about LotR, if for no other reason than because my brother and sister love it so much. But we always have to stop and explain things for them, and repeat lines that they missed (my mom is always frustrated at Gandalf, because he really DOES mutter a whole lot, just barely able to make out his words, and she’s like “WHAT? What did he say?” and we have to repeat it), and then we have to explain and remind them of things. As in, “this guy is the guy whose brother got hit with all those arrows in the first movie. His father is the steward.” “So the steward is the king?” “No, he’s a steward, Gondor doesn’t have a king yet.” “And his son is this guy?” “Yeah, he’s the guy we saw before who meet Frodo and Sam.” “The brother with the arrows?” “Yes.”

Then there are things like “Why’s Gandalf riding out like that?” (When Mithrandir plunges forth from Minas Tirith to stave off the Nazgûl) “To frighten them off!” “Oh, with his magic wand?” “*SIGH*”. They miss a whole lot because they ask questions, then we have to remind them of things or tell them why something is going on. Mom didn’t see Théoden and Aragorn and co. riding to Edoras, so when they showed them making a toast, she was like “How’d they get there?” *Sigh* They’re fun, and it’s fun to watch a movie with someone who doesn’t know...it’s just not fun when we’re milked for all the details.

[Saraphim]

I think I fall into the "annoying experts" catagory. I have to keep reminding myself not to talk about Lord of the Rings in my daily life. It is...very hard. I get funny looks when I do because about 50 people (maybe) in Las Vegas are fans of the books. And half of them havn't done the Silmarillion and HoME.

So I have to ask my brother to beat me over the head with something blunt if I get started. ^_^

[Elora]

It's been said before, and I'm sure that most comments here are meant in jest (or at least I hope for otherwise they would cruel and nasty - worthy of the Uruk-Hai or Curufin).


I'd just like to point out that all of us started out as amateurs. We had our annoying questions and misconceptions, corrected by those patient enough around us to deal with our squeakings and by our own further study of Tolkien's work.

I will go further, and risk crucifiction but I am somewhat of a bold lass, and say that at one point Tolkien himself was an amateur. As the stories he set down took shape, so too did his knowledge of his world. Doubt me? Then take a look at the innumerable tales that were written, re-written, tossed aside, radically altered by the great man and now are offered for our reading pleasure thanks mainly to the hard work of his son, Christopher.

You'll see in those tales the evolution of what us "experts" now consider lore.

If people do not begin as amateurs, then people do not begin at all to experience Tolkien's work. It's self flattery, and intolerant, to seek to promote your own knowledge at the expense of another's desire to learn or discuss. The movies, if nothing else, have introduced this epic tale to people who would otherwise never encounter it.

Yes, some questions can be annoying. I myself am likely to trip any who dares *swoon* in my presence (to get them to the floor and out of my way all the sooner). But have a care, lest you yourself prove foolish in how you respond with them. We all started somewhere, some earlier than others and it would be unwise to forget that in ivory towers of knowledge.

Tolkien's world was big enough for 3 Ages, variant races and peoples to live, live, fight and die.... surely it's big enough to share and surely our minds are big enough to comprehend that each will have their own perspective of what Tolkien's work meant. That individual right of interpretation is inalienable, and belongs to all - be you wise lore master or stark raving idiot (and I place myself in the latter category, in case you wonder).

Have a care, is all I ask.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

LOR was meant to be a trilogy only

I'm afraid not. Actually it was published in three volumes because in the 1950s paper was very expensive in Britain. Even as it was, the first edition cost 21 shillings a volume, which made it a very expensive set indeed. The fact that it sold any copies at all is a testament to the popularity of The Hobbit.

I think that Heren Istarion's point should serve to remind us that Middle-earth is more complicated than it may seem. The Silmarillion looks authoritative until you read The History of Middle-earth, and then it's really up to the individual which of Tolkien's versions they choose to accept. Perhaps it should remind us of something else as well: there is always someone who knows more than you do, and to them you may be an annoying amateur. Don't get me wrong: I like to laugh at ignorance posing as authority as much as anyone, but we shouldn't take it to extremes and poke fun at everyone who doesn't know all the names of Tom Bombadil. It just isn't what the Downs is about.