LOTR Survivor

[the guy who be short]

++Eomer - The last attractive male on the show. How has he managed to stay so long?

[Anguirel]

Eru, it's a new specimen entirely! The Fickle Dwarf!

[the guy who be short]

I owe no allegiance to Eomer. Do not accost me with yours stereotypes of Dwarflihood!

[Nonnacedak]

++Eomer

Now is the time to jump on the Eomer bandwagon!!

[Anguirel]

"Only a millionaire or a romantic would support Eomer."-Something George Orwell Might Have Said But Didn't That Supports Both Camps In Different Ways

Is no one going to strike out for the workers and join me in giving the gold-digging, leeching, penniless, hanging-on, obsolete, anachronistic disparaging aristocrat that is Gloin a healthy kick?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Is no one going to strike out for the workers and join me in giving the gold-digging, leeching, penniless, hanging-on, obsolete, anachronistic disparaging aristocrat that is Gloin a healthy kick?

So tell me. How exactly do you square that with supporting an unelected monarch?

[Anguirel]

Eomer is most certainly elected; if in a similar way to the Reges Teutonicorum or the Kings of Scotland, or Hungary, or Sweden (or, for that matter, the President of the United States); i. e., the electors will tend to continue to support one dynasty barring really serious disaster. It is repeatedly asserted that the Rohirrim "put their trust in the House of Eorl", and that is why Eowyn is required to rule over them in her uncle's absence.

In addition, as a proto-Anglo-Saxon society it is almost certain that Eomer required the confirmation of some kind of Witanegamot body of elders in order to rule legally.

[Boromir88]

Votings close, I'll tally em up.

[Boromir88]

Quickbeam- 12
Eomer- 4
Gloin- 1

Quickbeam must leave the island. Despite his name, he still doesn't leave fast enough and misses the boat off, so the remaining tribe are forced to use him as firewood, just like Treebeard. I guess it's getting pretty low in abundance.

Dwarves/Elves
Galadriel
Glorfindel
Gimli
Gloin

Hobbits
Merry
Pippin

Men/rohan ladyEomer
Eowyn
Hama

[Glirdan]

Well. I say we eliminate the Elf/Dwarf tribe a little, starting with Gloin(he's to old for this now) Or get rid of Hama who is ultimately useless. I mean, who gets eaten by a warg? Honestly!!! I'll wait a little, not to bandwagon or anything, but to make my mind up for whom I'll be voting for.

[mormegil]

Boromir, was removing Eomer an executive decision? I agree with it if it is otherwise I will continue to vote for him today.

[Glirdan]

If you look closely morm, Eomer's name is right beside the Men/rohan lady part. As for my vote, it shall be

++Hama

I just don't like him. That and he got eaten by a warg.

[mormegil]

Thank you Glirdan, in that case

++EOMER

[The 1,000 Reader]

++Eomer.

[WaynetheGoblin]

++hama band wagoning time for wayne.

[Celuien]

++EOMER THE URUK

No Uruk should be King of Rohan. Down with him!

[Firefoot]

++Eomer

But only because I said I would.

I say tomorrow we get rid of one of the Dwarves... they've remained unvoted out this whole time.

[Folwren]

Mormegil, why? Why do you go so head strongly against Eomer? Why did you help Faramir leave the island? Did I or anyone else do anything wrong? How can you do this? Does your conscience not smart? You are coupling yourself with those who removed Sam! Worse than that, you got rid of Faramir - a man whom Sam greatly respected, and one who we wanted to stick around for a while.

It's all very, very sad.



-- Folwren

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

++Eomer

But only because I said I would.

Thank ye verra much, m'lady! T'is good te see ye ke'p yer promiz.

And I want the big lout gone as well... Clearly, he's an enslaver of horses: that horsetail plume on his helmet, for example...

What's more, he seems totally preoccupied with the idea of death. Look at his actions on the Pelennor. They are nothing but killing and looking to be killed. Is this the sort of man you want staying on the island?

[Anguirel]

This from someone who defended an Orc high in the councils of Sauron...???

I second the removal of the Hama. Time he falls before the gate. Besides, I know he'd be willing to sacrifice himself for his lord...

++HAMA

[Koneko]

++Hama

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Eomer is most certainly elected ...

Yes, elected by his predecessor as he lay dying on the Fields of Pelennor. And that's the basis for a good, working democracy, is it?

He was, in any event, clearly not fit to lead his country, having abandoned it when it had great need of him. With his King lapsing into senile dementia, he takes off with his men on a hunting trip.

On said trip, he ends up hunting orcs, undoubtedly a rare species in Rohan at that time. (Note also that he was a willing accomplice to that other undemocratically appointed monarch, Aragorn, in later hunting said species to virtual, if not complete, extinction.) He also continues to neglect his duties while out hunting by allowing three mysterious strangers (one of whom was the aforementioned Aragorn) to roam at will through Rohan, despite their failure to produce any proper ID.

Later, at the Battle of Pelennor fields, he abandons his King to a potentially terrible fate at the hands of the Witch-King (no doubt, with a greedy eye to the throne). Happily, two of the remaining contestants were able to save King Theoden from such fate, although sadly not from death. Lo and behold, Eomer "mysteriously" appears after the danger has passed and coerces the dying King into handing the throne over to him.

Note also Eomer's chauvenistic and overbearing nature. Despite knowing that his sister's greatest wish was to bear arms and fight for her country, he remained resolutely against her doing any such thing. He has continued to restrict her to domestic duties while on the Island.

He is also a bully, as his behaviour towards the poor, unfairly maligned Wormtongue shows. He used his physical superiority to make the poor man's life a living hell. Remember how he continually taunted and ridiculed Grima while he was still on the Island? A classic example of a "popular" guy bullying the poor, misunderstood misfit. The comparison to a High School Jock, while it may be anachronistic, is far from inappropriate.

I fail to see how anyone can support such a man.

++EOMER

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Yes, elected by his predecessor as he lay dying on the Fields of Pelennor. And that's the basis for a good, working democracy, is it?

You ask the Rohirrim. They wanted the House of Eorl, and they got it. Which is more than can be said, for instance, than for the majority of Americans who apparently voted for Al Gore...

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

He was, in any event, clearly not fit to lead his country, having abandoned it when it had great need of him. With his King lapsing into senile dementia, he takes off with his men on a hunting trip.

If we're following the book, this hunting trip you speak of was a desperate defence of the realm at the Fords of Isen, against an invasion mounted by...

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

orcs, undoubtedly a rare species in Rohan at that time.

An army of tens of thousands and goodness knows how many Orcs labouring to supply said force isn't all that rare...

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

(Note also that he was a willing accomplice to that other undemocratically appointed monarch, Aragorn, in later hunting said species to virtual, if not complete, extinction.) He also continues to neglect his duties while out hunting by allowing three mysterious strangers (one of whom was the aforementioned Aragorn) to roam at will through Rohan, despite their failure to produce any proper ID.

Ask the singing folk of Minas Tirith if they were not contented by Aragorn's election. As for the matter of Eomer not demanding ID cards, this establishes his credentials as a free-thinking individualistic libertarian opposed to the Big Brother over-paternalist state, not the tyrant you have portrayed him as.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Later, at the Battle of Pelennor fields, he abandons his King to a potentially terrible fate at the hands of the Witch-King (no doubt, with a greedy eye to the throne). Happily, two of the remaining contestants were able to save King Theoden from such fate, although sadly not from death. Lo and behold, Eomer "mysteriously" appears after the danger has passed and coerces the dying King into handing the throne over to him.

Gross libel. If Eomer had wanted to murder his uncle, he had had plenty of opportunity in the Edoras days. Note that Eomer was simply protecting his uncle by a charge against thousands of that cuddly endangered species of yours...Theoden's bequest is a standard "verba novissima", made of free will and without provocation to a lawful heir.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Note also Eomer's chauvenistic and overbearing nature. Despite knowing that his sister's greatest wish was to bear arms and fight for her country, he remained resolutely against her doing any such thing.

Because she would have been killed, and he loved her! Had it not been for your "undemocratically elected" Aragorn, he would have been proved right by Eowyn's tragic and needless death, pursuing a phantom love.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

He has continued to restrict her to domestic duties while on the Island.

Hardly. As her husband, Faramir has been her "protector", and treated her with kindness and equality until he was sent off by your slander...

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

He is also a bully, as his behaviour towards the poor, unfairly maligned Wormtongue shows. He used his physical superiority to make the poor man's life a living hell.

Wormtongue was scarcely very emancipatory and feminist in his treatment of Eowyn. We also have a clear documentation of a past in which Wormtongue contrived Eomer's wrongful jailing, framing him for a crime similar to your own charges. You speak with Grima's slithering tongue!

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Remember how he continually taunted and ridiculed Grima while he was still on the Island? A classic example of a "popular" guy bullying the poor, misunderstood misfit. The comparison to a High School Jock, while it may be anachronistic, is far from inappropriate.

Who imprisoned who? Who abused who's sister? That's what we have to ask.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I fail to see how anyone can support such a man.

Hardly surprising, as you've glossed over his courage, his loyalty in the face of severe provocation to his uncle, his free-spiritedness, initiative, and mastery of poetry.

Do not let this sinister heir of Wormtongue, this Orc-fondling lying word-twisting charlatan, usurp your minds, my friends, and vote for Hama, who has expressed a wish to depart rather than suffer the fall of his esteemed captain and friend.

[Lalaith]

Indeed, let us all consider the sage counsel of Gandalf the White:

To put your trust in Eomer, rather than in a man of crooked mind.

++HAMA

A noble man ready to make a noble sacrifice. I bid him farewell and salute him.

[Boromir88]

If you look closely morm, Eomer's name is right beside the Men/rohan lady part. As for my vote, it shall be~Glirdan

Yeah, it's there morm, usually I copy and paste, but I guess I didn't on this one and forgot to hit space.

Anyway, I'll probably vote for Hama today, afterall he really does nothing, and of all things he listens to Gandalf, that's gotta be the worst.

[the guy who be short]

++Eomer. Why is he still here?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

You ask the Rohirrim. They wanted the House of Eorl, and they got it ...

And that's been independently verified has it? At least Bush's right to govern was upheld in a court of law. Can the same be said of Eomer? I think not.

If we're following the book ...

You mean that piece of blatant propaganda peddled by Frodo and Sam, both of whom have long since been discredited and voted from the Island.

Originally Posted by Ang

... this hunting trip you speak of was a desperate defence of the realm at the Fords of Isen, against an invasion mounted by... An army of tens of thousands and goodness knows how many Orcs ...

Can you blame them after being hunted all the time by the Strawheads? At least the Dunlendings saw where the justice lie, although they were cruelly repressed by Eomer's despotic regime for their part in the uprising.

Originally Posted by Ang

Ask the singing folk of Minas Tirith if they were not contented by Aragorn's election.

So now the government gets selected by the minstrels, does it? Perhaps we should ask the likes of Robbie Williams, Madonna and Britney Spears to choose our rulers then.

As for the matter of Eomer not demanding ID cards, this establishes his credentials as a free-thinking individualistic libertarian opposed to the Big Brother over-paternalist state, not the tyrant you have portrayed him as.

Ah, but there's a world of difference between asking for some form of ID and imposing a requirement to carry ID cards. In any event, once he was in charge, Eomer's attitudes changed somewhat. Just ask the poor Dunlendings.

Originally Posted by Ang

Theoden's bequest is a standard "verba novissima", made of free will and without provocation to a lawful heir.

You were there, were you? Unfortunately, you are once again relying on the discredited Red Book of Westmarch. Never trust little (or big, for that matter) red books ...

Originally Posted by Ang

Because she would have been killed, and he loved her!

So that gave him the right to chain her to the metaphoric kitchen sink, did it? I can see that you share Eomer's Stone Age attitudes.

Originally Posted by Ang

Hardly. As her husband, Faramir has been her "protector", and treated her with kindness and equality until he was sent off by your slander...

Funny that. She looks to me to have been having a whale of a time since the Sneaky Steward departed.

Originally Posted by Ang

We also have a clear documentation of a past in which Wormtongue contrived Eomer's wrongful jailing, framing him for a crime similar to your own charges.

Admittedly, Wormtongue went off the rails. But it was under extreme provocation from Eomer and his bully-boys. A more enlightened approach would be to look at the underlying cause of his misdemeanours, rather than the misdemeanours themselves.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Indeed, let us all consider the sage counsel of Gandalf the White

Another discredited early evictee from the Island.

Originally Posted by Ang

Hardly surprising, as you've glossed over his courage, his loyalty in the face of severe provocation to his uncle, his free-spiritedness, initiative, and mastery of poetry.

Ah, the discredited "Red" book again. Filtering out the propaganda reveals him to be the craven, disloyal, tyrannical, close-minded and illiterate bully that he really was.

You see. It's all about thinking outside the box.

Originally Posted by Ang

Orc-fondling

Much as I sympathise with the poor, misunderstood blighters, I most certainly do not indulge in cross-species petting. You shall shortly be hearing from my lawyers.

Originally Posted by Boro

Anyway, I'll probably vote for Hama today, afterall he really does nothing, and of all things he listens to Gandalf, that's gotta be the worst.

Ah, but at least he had the guts to stand up to Aragorn. Unlike the craven Eomer, who let him roam at will throughout Rohan to cause untold mischief. I urge you to think again, Boro. This could be our last chance to rid the Island of the Forgoil pretty-boy.

[Anguirel]

Saucie castigates us Eomerites for following the Red Book. Makes me wonder about what sources he's going on...perhaps

The Black Book of Sauron, or, the troubles of a misunderstood jeweller

The Brown Book of Ugluk, or, My Time in the Uruk Liberation Front

The Multi-Coloured Book of Saruman, or, I am Your Rightful Lord and Master, Because I have the Coolest Robe, go on, admit it

and most of all

The Indeterminately Unpleasantly Coloured Book of Grima, or, how I had arrow surgery, sold up, and surfaced as a renowned Barrowdowner.

This fellow is inveterate in his use of generalisation, balderdash, and misapplication. How could anything with more intelligence than Bert the Troll be swayed by such twisted rhetoric?

[The Saucepan Man]

History is inevitably written by the victors, and one has to bear in mind that is is therefore intrinsically biased.

[Anguirel]

All sources are biased, Saucie. An objective point of view is impossible.

But if you make up a case from scratch and carefully selected, dubious evidence, from threads and patches, from politicised conjecture tailored to suit your cause, and parade and trumpet it as the truth...

That's called distortion!

[Alcarillo]

++Hama

Anguirel has convinced me.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Ang

But if you make up a case from scratch and carefully selected, dubious evidence, from threads and patches, from politicised conjecture tailored to suit your cause, and parade and trumpet it as the truth...

That's called distortion!

No. It's just another way of looking at things. And how much more fun it is than simply accepting the spoon-fed "traditional" view.

How interesting would this thread be if everyone just toed the line, unanimously voted off all the baddies and mutually enthused about how wonderful people like Sam, Aragorn, Faramir and Eomer were ...?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Alcarillo

Anguirel has convinced me.

Yeah, right. Like you haven't voted with the pro-Eomer lobby for the past five days or so ...

Tsk! I am dismayed by the conservatism of the vast majority of the Downs membership ...

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Tsk! I am dismayed by the conservatism of the vast majority of the Downs membership ...

If you want to get really freaky go for Galadriel removal.

[Anguirel]

To an extent I agree with you, Saucie. I joined the Sam and Frodo campaigns, for instance. However, I'm just warning potential victims of your verbal wrigglings about your unreliability. Were I, not you, in charge of setting the agenda of targets that you seem to have grasped, then I'd be interested to see how you'd swallow my libellings of a character you liked...a certain innocent young Took, perhaps...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I joined the Sam and Frodo campaigns, for instance ... I'd be interested to see how you'd swallow my libellings of a character you liked...a certain innocent young Took, perhaps...

Hmm, why does that not surprise me? I have a number of preferred candidates for winner out of those remaining but since none are of the conventional kind, I hold out little hope.

In the meantime, I shall continue to have fun railing against the establishment.

(Btw, if I really had any influence in setting the agenda, the list of those remaining would look markedly different. )

[Kath]

Do you know with all the excitement over Eomer and Faramir and Treebeard, I completely forgot about

++HAMA

I voted for him once already. Having seen some of these ridiculous arguments against Eomer I think I'll vote for anyone but! Who fancies starting on a Dwarf soon by the way? They seem to have escaped persecution so far.

[Anguirel]

I did my best, Kath, I did my best. I may well support an anti-Dwarf drive, though I'd prefer to expell a Hobbit or so...

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I did my best, Kath, I did my best. I may well support an anti-Dwarf drive, though I'd prefer to expell a Hobbit or so...

Don't make me recruit Kuruharan and incur his wrath

[Anguirel]

Ah yes, mormegil. I was waiting for you to float up.

How do you square this approach

Originally Posted by mormegil

Boromir, was removing Eomer an executive decision? I agree with it if it is

with your anti-Eomer faction's stance of brave democrats fighting an unelected monarch?

Looks like, like most revolutionaries, this lot don't care about autocracy as long as it goes their way.

Friends, Downers, Rohirrim, vote to promote the noble self-sacrifice of Hama in the face of these scheming hypocrites! Death, death, death!