Eorling Mead Hall Planning/Discussion Thread

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

If it weren't for the broken wrist...

Oops. Will edit later.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Pio, now would be a good time to post Lommy's. Or I can add it myself to my own post after work...?

-------------

EDIT:

Done . . . and thanks!

~*~ Pio

[JennyHallu]

Fea, luv...could you send Modtryth to Marenil's room to discuss how they'll handle the accounts? He's working on taking the reins of the stewardship. LMP, I'd also like some word from you on just what, exactly, Marenil is responsible for. I would have thought the Steward would be handling hiring, honestly, at least for artisan labor and tasks involving access to the coffers. And I foresee some clashing between Marenil's experience and Saeri's earnestness...Saeri's new to the job, and Marenil hasn't had to deal with female authority higher than a housekeeper for 15 years. He took on a lot of the roles of Farlen's Lady...

It would be great to see a list of Saeryn's, Marenil's, and Thornden's duties, as well, perhaps, as those duties Eodwine prefers to make himself.
And as steward, shouldn't Marenil be attending the meeting between the Lord and Lady and the contractors?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Fea, luv...could you send Modtryth to Marenil's room to discuss how they'll handle the accounts?

Sure I can. Just had to go to work first before I posted again. I can have Saeryn ask Modtryth to send Marenil down when he's done...?

And I foresee some clashing between Marenil's experience and Saeri's earnestness...

Oh, certainly. Saeryn's got experience in her old household, but not in this one. Same goes for Marenil. No doubt they'll be stepping on each other's toes left and right until Eodwine sorts things out.

It would be great to see a list of Saeryn's, Marenil's, and Thornden's duties,

I agree, that way I know which rules I'm breaking when I have her doing somebody else's.

[JennyHallu]

Originally Posted by Fea

I agree, that way I know which rules I'm breaking when I have her doing somebody else's.

Exactly.

Of course there's also the joy of eventually getting a functional, smoothrunning household...if we feel like it. (And eventually we probably will. Settling new people in with fewer hiccups allows the other trouble we create for ourselves to be more far fetched.

Oh and a question for Lommy: How fluent is Modtryth in the Rohirric tongue?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Settling new people in with fewer hiccups allows the other trouble we create for ourselves to be more far fetched.

So true. Adventures are just such a pain when you're busy with chores, you know?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Oh and a question for Lommy: How fluent is Modtryth in the Rohirric tongue?

She will be away for more than a week, but as we have discussed and created our characters at length together, I can answer this.

Modtryth is a native speaker. She has been born and is raised in Rohan, in a rohanian household (his father being one too) and is pretty knowledgeable of her language skills... She might have a bit "northern-rohanian" accent as Stigend, but that should be not a problem.

[Nogrod]

I hope our planning-party will assemble today. I had already written a post to start it but then I found a few things I had to check with Celuien and lmp first (I've PM'd them and hope to have their answers soon enough).

Fea: did you write Saeryn to the table where all of us (Eodwine, Garstan and Stigend) were sitting or somewhere where Eodwine was alone?

[JennyHallu]

Ha! Fea...Marenil "in need of a diversion"? Saeri has no idea what a juggernaut Marenil's new appointment has released...hehehe...He'll eventually give her a "talking-to" about the role of Eodwine's Lady...

And I think we may need a full-time housekeeper, especially as the building grows. And I wonder if we should build a second residential wing. The one we have is getting filled up.

Ok...my ideas on jobs:

Eodwine:
oversees all these, of course, and should have at least a finger, and no more than a hand, in every pie, unless something goes wrong. Saeryn would probably take a more active role in overseeing the housekeeper than Eodwine.

Saeryn:
Oversees housekeeper
Hostess for guests
Has authority to make decisions for Eodwine in the lord's absence

Marenil (Steward):

Keeps the books for the Emnet
Hears and filters callers on Eodwine (as any good secretary would)
Oversees contractual labor, housekeeper, almbudsman


Has authority to make decisions for Eodwine in the lord's and lady's absence

Thornden (Almbudsman):

Spokesman for Eodwine or his steward
Tax collector
Herald of sorts
Eodwine's squire and aide-de-camp in time of war

Not-yet-existent housekeeper (Modtryth?):

Keeps the books for the Hall (Answerable to Marenil)
Makes lists for market days
Final decision on purchases of foodstuffs.


Oversees domestic labor (Answerable to Saeryn)

Kara (Cook):
Prepares menus and meals for household and guests.
Keeps inventory of pantries and larders.

Leof (Ostler):
Cares for and exercises horses, mules, and ponies of household and guests.
Cares for and repairs tack and equipment thereof
Keeps inventories of grainbins and other usable supplies

Trystan (general labor):


Does what he's told



? (Maid):

Does general cleaning, cares for guest and household rooms.
Does or helps with laundry and mending.

Does or helps with market.Helps in kitchen on feastdays?

Garwine (Master-of-Arms):
Oversees security of the Lord's holdings
Oversees mercenaries and armsmen sworn to Eodwine (I assume at some point Eodwine shall need more than one armsman, especially with the rapid growth of his household)
Keeps books for these expenses.

Garstan (Stonemason) & Stigend (Carpenter):
Artisans sworn to Eodwine
Performs work to rebuild Hall...we'll have to rethink that when the Hall's done.

Characters who aren't quite guests:
Manawyth (Bard):
His role as bard is one with rather loosely defined duties, and as such he falls really under the purview of no one but Eodwine, just because he's not a laborer to need direct supervision.

Lys:
Though I assume he will take up some duty when he heals (Pageboy? Groom?), he's not yet capable of it.

The children (Garmund, Cnebba, Lèoðern): duties not really defined...probably more as helpers to their own parents than anything more formal.

Guests:
Linduial
Degas
Falco
Nain

I'll edit more into this as I think of it and write it up. For now, what do ya'll think?EDIT: Added more people and tasks. I don't know whom of the servants of the hall are literate or not...Marenil is, and obviously the lord and lady, and Thornden, but I don't think anyone's considered it much beyond those. I've also added tasks it looks to me could use filled, that aren't right now. Marenil may advise keeping an eye out for laborers to fill these positions.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

And I wonder if we should build a second residential wing. The one we have is getting filled up.

Funny you should mention that. I had just suggested via PM to lmp & Celuien, that as a part of the renovation we could build more lodging or something and not just a long corridor with no other functions... Marenil might bring that up?

[Kath]

That looks fine to me Jenny, except that I think the 'making list for market day' is more likely to be Kara and Frodides' job rather than the housekeeper, as they will have a better idea of what they've used and what is needed.

[JennyHallu]

Things needed for market day encompasses far more than just groceries. I figured that Kara and Frodides would prepare a grocery list and hand it off to the housekeeper, who would add what other supplies were needed: feed for horses, soap, needle and thread, cloth, clean rushes for the floor...

I hadn't yet sorted out Kara and Frodides' duties...I'll do that when I get home. Workday's about over.

[Kath]

Ok that sounds about fair.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Ooh, fun. Saeryn won't be overly happy, I can see it already. You see, she really likes the role of housekeeper. She won't hand it over without a fight. Even if trying to balance that and ladyship will kill her by way of exhaustion.

I can see a confrontation with Eodwine in the near future. "Eodwine, tell your steward that his suggestions of my incapability are entirely unwelcome. And stop being so disagreeable, you're getting on my nerves." Mwahaha.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Fea, luv...could you send Modtryth to Marenil's room to discuss how they'll handle the accounts? He's working on taking the reins of the stewardship. LMP, I'd also like some word from you on just what, exactly, Marenil is responsible for. I would have thought the Steward would be handling hiring, honestly, at least for artisan labor and tasks involving access to the coffers. And I foresee some clashing between Marenil's experience and Saeri's earnestness...Saeri's new to the job, and Marenil hasn't had to deal with female authority higher than a housekeeper for 15 years. He took on a lot of the roles of Farlen's Lady...

It would be great to see a list of Saeryn's, Marenil's, and Thornden's duties, as well, perhaps, as those duties Eodwine prefers to make himself.
And as steward, shouldn't Marenil be attending the meeting between the Lord and Lady and the contractors?

I haven't time to answer this right now, busy busy busy! Except for this: Yes, Marenil should be part of the meeting too. Eodwine will be apologizing to him for his failure to think of it. What I'd like is if Marenil could make these very suggestions in the RP that you're making here. What do you think? It could be interesting.

Nogrod, please post up. I won't have time to introduce the thing. Perhaps you could just put suitable words in Eodwine's mouth?

As for a residential wing, we're all thinking too much in modern terms. A Mead Hall was a place in which people just parked themselves in the main Hall as they could find room. Eodwine will be against adding a new wing on two grounds: 1. expense (he doesn't have much cashflow); 2. He thinks that the open hall is good enough for overflow guests. This is what he'll say when asked. If you want your characters to argue the point with Eodwine, by all means go for it.

Let the conflict ensue!

And Trystan, Eodwine wants those privies cleaned out by the end of the the afternoon. Got a that?

[JennyHallu]

I think that Marenil will suggest that Eodwine's famed generosity is bad for business. I am thinking he might suggest that Eodwine institute a use-fee for guests who wish more than a pallet in the hall, and a meal more complex than simple porridge and mead. That could help with his ready-cash, and prevent low-lifes from taking advantage of him (which may have happened quite a bit during the Fair). After all, the hall is a governmental center, not a soup kitchen. Marenil will also suggest that as the permanent household is growing, more permanent and private lodging for those sworn to Eodwine may be in order.

Which reminds me: If you have not selected and been assigned a room, please PM me with your choice so I can update that. See the Eorling Mead Hall map (linked to in the first post of this thread). If you chose one and I never updated the map, PM me with a scolding and a reminder.

Oh, and I updated the job descriptions I developed above...LMP, did you see those?

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Eodwine will be against adding a new wing on two grounds: 1. expense (he doesn't have much cashflow); 2. He thinks that the open hall is good enough for overflow guests. This is what he'll say when asked. If you want your characters to argue the point with Eodwine, by all means go for it.

Does that include the previously approved fire-break corridor to the kitchen? Garstan won't press for its construction if Eodwine has reconsidered, since he realizes that approval was given somewhat hurriedly in the midst of watching Leof's victory at the races (as I recall)...

Edit coming soon for my post. In fact, I'm doing it now!

[Laiudanama]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Trystan (general labor):

Does what he's told

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

And Trystan, Eodwine wants those privies cleaned out by the end of the the afternoon. Got a that?

Not sure I deserved all that...

Middle Earth karma, no doubt: if so, cleaning out the toilets is actually a fairly light punishment for Trystan's sins...*trails off into ominous silence* Mysterious, non? *shrugs* Nyeh, give me my small pleasures where I can find them

Well, with all that hard work, Trystan's mind may have time to wander - I spy a revelatory kind of a post a-coming, cap'n...

[Celuien]

Post edited, as promised.

Oh, and Nogrod, I'll second lmp:

Let the conflict ensue!

Though Garstan, like his author, is somewhat conflict averse, so don't expect him to particularly up for a fight.

[Nogrod]

Celuien:
I've posted now and given Stigend a chance to explain his thoughts. I hope Garstan would defend his idea about the fire-thing too as I think it a good idea myself (just how to put all this together...?). Even though it's something the poor folk could not afford and as a stone-crafter Garstan could be more knowledgeable of those things than Stigend...

lmp:
I hope Eodwine turned out okay enough. I made that part in somewhat in a hurry, but will correct everything you want me to, surely.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Celuien:
I've posted now and given Stigend a chance to explain his thoughts. I hope Garstan would defend his idea about the fire-thing too as I think it a good idea myself (just how to put all this together...?). Even though it's something the poor folk could not afford and as a stone-crafter Garstan could be more knowledgeable of those things than Stigend...

I'm sure he'll feel like at least explaining it to Stigend. Whether the fire-thing stays or not, though, will be up for debate.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I'm sure he'll feel like at least explaining it to Stigend. Whether the fire-thing stays or not, though, will be up for debate.

Has anyone a clue, whether the kind of metal sheet -things that they put between the ovens and the walls just to prevent fires were already in use those times? In any given actual or fictional world we are trying to construct here...

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Has anyone a clue, whether the kind of metal sheet -things that they put between the ovens and the walls just to prevent fires were already in use those times? In any given actual or fictional world we are trying to construct here...

It seems that I've been drawn back into reseaching again. I looked around, but couldn't find specifics on oven construction. I did find some information that supports Garstan's plan, though.

Medieval kitchen

More details on Early English Architecture, including a brief section on the kitchen.

Quoted here:

At Goltho in Lincolnshire the fortified burh of a wealthy lord has been excavated. It comprised a bow-sided timber hall nearly 25 m (82 feet) long and nearly 10 m wide (32.8 feet); a smaller kitchen building set well away from the hall for fire protection; a long narrow weaving shed about 20 m long where the women of the burh would have stood at their looms for the daily labour of wool weaving; and a separate bower building.

Private defended burhs of wealthy thegns, ealdorman, and nobles could include both large timber halls and smaller stone buildings. The remains of a Saxon masonry building of 2.4 m (8 feet) tall stone walls have been excavated at Eynsford castle, Kent. A wood framed roof may have rested upon the walls, or they may have carried another wood-framed story above. This building had an excavated floor some 1.5 m (5 feet) below the ground, and was surrounded by a ditch 5 m (16 feet) wide and 3 m (10 feet) deep. Heavily fortified as it was it may have housed a powerful lord. On Lower Brook Street in Winchester was found the remains of a square stone building of at least two stories dating from about 800. It is part of a high status, secular, residential homestead.

At Sulgrave, Northamptonshire excavations have revealed the presence of a large 10th c timber hall, another lordly residence. Like many great halls it was constructed of closely set vertical timbers. At Sulgrave these sat upon a laid, mortar-less stone foundation. At one end of the great hall was a partition which led to a smaller room - perhaps a store room. A smaller detached timber building, which may have been a kitchen, was built outside. Another building on the site had stone walls more than 2 m (6 1/2') high - possibly a strong room or tower.

Anyone else have information on medieval construction methods?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

As for a residential wing, we're all thinking too much in modern terms. A Mead Hall was a place in which people just parked themselves in the main Hall as they could find room. Eodwine will be against adding a new wing on two grounds: 1. expense (he doesn't have much cashflow)

I think here might be bolded one more remnant of modern thinking...

1) A lord, if he is having people to live with him as workers, will have fixed expences over them no matter what they do - or whether they do nothing. It's not like today when hiring a carpenter or a stoneworker costs you a small fortune.
2) A lord straight under the supervision of the king would have quite nice opportunities to any resources. Even a layman might be able to go and hack stone from somewhere or possibly even fell wood. Every square-inch of the world was not owned by some individual or other back then. And surely if some lands were assigned to the king, he would surely look benevolently towards a small request by his Eorl...
3) In a Mead Hall like this there seems to be ample workforce and equipment to do all those things on their own, so no need to hire or pay for any outsiders. Eodwine could just say: now you three work the next days getting us some stone from place X?

It's completely another thing then, that at least Stigend would require baulks (or building timber) that have been peeled and dried at least three years beforehand so that they would not "live" any more and thence warp or twist as they will be made part of a building... But surely the king at least would come to back Eodwine on that? He could give some from his stock of dried baulks and just require the matching amount of fresh ones to be given back to him (which Stigend with some help from the others could then produce). Or something...

But I believe that much could be done with no additional expenses in that era's economy.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Celuien

It seems that I've been drawn back into reseaching again.
I did find some information that supports Garstan's plan, though.

the fortified burh of a wealthy lord... Private defended burhs of wealthy thegns, ealdorman, and nobles ... Heavily fortified as it was it may have housed a powerful lord. ...It is part of a high status, secular, residential homestead.
...another lordly residence.

I hope Garstan will stick to this. (Although all of those references didn't mention a separate kitchen... )

As I said to Celuien in a PM, "I surely see the idea behind the fire-protection. In a big castle with a wealthy lord you could afford that kind of things, and surely the well-being of their kitchen personnel was not nearest to their hearts, I suppose... Stigend surely thinks about the matter from his point of view: looking at the conditions of people having to do the work in the buildings and how to build economically..."

And then I started thinking whether I have just contradicted myself with my last post...

Yes, I know, that at least in Northern Europe the poor and the middle-class built their ovens tightly to the walls to give maximum warmth up to the 20th century. But clearly the wood had been free on the earlier times at least... So it must be labour-costly then? Just imagine the amounts of firewood needed in a Mead Hall! Well, as I said earlier, the Eorl need not to worry, what his subordinates do as they cost him the same every day, but surely if other projects are hampered by just getting enough firewood - or if it is a sparser commodity (you have to make long trips to find it or something) - it would be wise to try to be economical in that way.

But surely: Stigend's way of looking at the question stems from his experience of how things are done where he has been working. Garstan probably has a better argument if we look at it from the perspective of the safety. Stigend just looks at labour costs and the comfort of the people working in the buildings they construct...

Haa! This is fun! So far I have just managed with general education, but soon I will have to start searching for additional information too... A nice little disagreement between different schools of the building-trade!

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I hope Garstan will stick to this. (Although all of those references didn't mention a separate kitchen... )

No. Not all of them did. Just the ones that were talking about safety precautions taken by the wealthy.

I'm working on a post now.

[JennyHallu]

Nice discussion: But Nogrod, I fear I must bring up a point of procedure. Any kitchen hearth in the middle ages would NEVER go out. If it goes out, you have to start with a cold hearth in the morning, and it can take hours to get it to cooking heat, especially since a kitchen fire is mostly coals. What you do is rake it over so that the coals are insulated, and there's no live flame, but that can still burn down a house.

Ever wonder where we got the phrase "Keep the home-fires burning"? A Middle-Ages hearth-fire isn't ever put out, and I think Stigend would know that. That's equally true, by the by, in a serf's hovel and a lord's summer palace. That's another reason a kitchen in a castle might be built separately: with a constant flame, heat against the building's walls in summer would make the building near unbearable.

[littlemanpoet]

Trying to catch up here: I'll just say this: post #889 is absolutely sensational! Well done, Jenny! I'd rep you but I have to spread it around.....

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I think that Marenil will suggest that Eodwine's famed generosity is bad for business. I am thinking he might suggest that Eodwine institute a use-fee for guests who wish more than a pallet in the hall, and a meal more complex than simple porridge and mead. That could help with his ready-cash, and prevent low-lifes from taking advantage of him (which may have happened quite a bit during the Fair). After all, the hall is a governmental center, not a soup kitchen. Marenil will also suggest that as the permanent household is growing, more permanent and private lodging for those sworn to Eodwine may be in order.

This is one thing on which Eodwine is not likely to budge. He's got it in his head that this is going to be a true northern mead hall where guests are treated with magnanimity (completely different definition of hospitality there), and that householders are bound by loyalty rather than pay. Bring it on!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Nice discussion: But Nogrod, I fear I must bring up a point of procedure. Any kitchen hearth in the middle ages would NEVER go out. If it goes out, you have to start with a cold hearth in the morning, and it can take hours to get it to cooking heat, especially since a kitchen fire is mostly coals. What you do is rake it over so that the coals are insulated, and there's no live flame, but that can still burn down a house.

Ever wonder where we got the phrase "Keep the home-fires burning"? A Middle-Ages hearth-fire isn't ever put out, and I think Stigend would know that. That's equally true, by the by, in a serf's hovel and a lord's summer palace. That's another reason a kitchen in a castle might be built separately: with a constant flame, heat against the building's walls in summer would make the building near unbearable.

Yes I know. I have indeed "lived" in a cottage like that in my childhood for short times - and been in old farmsteads in Finland later. The oven is left smouldering for the night and then in the morning it's relit or "woken up" by just raking the coals and adding more wood.

The idea of an outdoor oven / grill was just to solve the summer-heat problem - and during summer the oven outside wouldn't be any more colder than one inside in the morning...

And as I put Stigend to think to himself, most of the fires were caused by total carelessness or bad construction - after all, stone is not so flammable and even a hot stone-oven doesn't set fire to a wooden wall next to it just by itself when it is made large enough. Oftentimes the construction was made in a way that there was the oven, then there was a stone/brick wall built around it. Then depending on the size of the building, that stone/brickwall might be anything to ten yards on both sides of the oven - so that wall comes warm and heats the building, but from the fringe areas (from where it is attached to the wooden wall) it's not hot but only warm.

Okay. Just to add...

[Nogrod]

Even though I first decided not to, I still had to make a few checks...

This I found most enlightening to all of us who are planning putting up a kitchen in the Mead Hall...

The kitchen remained largely unaffected by architectural advances throughout the middle ages; open fire remained the only method of heating food. European medieval kitchens were dark, smokey, and sooty places, whence their name "smoke kitchen". In European medieval cities around the 10th to 12th centuries, the kitchen still used an open fire hearth in the middle of the room. In wealthy homes, the ground floor was often used as a stable while the kitchen was located on the floor above, like the bedroom and the hall. In castles and monasteries, the living and working areas were separated; the kitchen was sometimes moved to a separate building, and thus couldn't serve anymore to heat the living rooms. In some castles the kitchen was retained in the same structure, but servants were strictly separated from nobles, by constructing separate spiral stone staircases for use of servants to bring food to upper levels. An extant example of such a medieval kitchen with servants's staircase is at Muchalls Castle in Scotland. In Japanese homes, the kitchen started to become a separate room within the main building at that time.

With the advent of the chimney, the hearth moved from the center of the room to one wall, and the first brick-and-mortar hearths were built. The fire was lit on top of the construction; a vault underneath served to store wood. Pots made of iron, bronze, or copper started to replace the pottery used earlier. The temperature was controlled by hanging the pot higher or lower over the fire, or placing it on a trivet or directly on the hot ashes. Using open fire for cooking (and heating) was risky; fires devastating whole cities occurred frequently.

Beginning in the late middle ages, kitchens in Europe lost their home-heating function even more and were increasingly moved from the living area into a separate room. The living room was now heated by tiled stoves, operated from the kitchen, which offered the huge advantage of not filling the room with smoke.

Freed from smoke and dirt, the living room thus began to serve as an area for social functions and increasingly became a showcase for the owner's wealth and was sometimes prestigiously furnished. In the upper classes, cooking and the kitchen were the domain of the servants, and the kitchen was set apart from the living rooms, sometimes even far from the dining room. Poorer homes often did not have a separate kitchen yet; they kept the one-room arrangement where all activities took place, or at the most had the kitchen in the entrance hall.

The medieval smoke kitchen remained common, especially in rural farmhouses and generally in poorer homes, until much later. In a few European farmhouses, the smoke kitchen was in regular use until the middle of the 20th century. These houses often had no chimney, but only a smoke hood above the fireplace, made of wood and covered with clay, and used to smoke meat. The smoke then rose more or less freely, warming the upstairs rooms and protecting the woodwork from vermin.

The whole article can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen#Middle_Ages

I also found many notes that Celuien was referring to, like this one:

The medieval kitchen was where all the dishes for the castle's meals were prepared. It was usually set away from the great hall, where most of the meals were served. This was to prevent a fire in the kitchen from spreading to the great hall. Fires happened often because all food was cooked over a fire or in an oven. However, because the kitchen was built away from the great hall, food often got cold on the trip from the kitchen to the great hall. Thus, an enclosed passageway of wood or stone would be constructed between the two. This would help to keep out the wind and keep the food warm on the trip

I have bolded the important word: castle (and monasteries are talked at some texts too). I ran to this thing as I tried to find information from my copy of Viollet'Le-Duc's "Encyclopédie Médiévale" - all they talked was great castles...

PS. One thing we should consider is whether we are building an oven or an open fire hearth - or both?

[Celuien]

Good finds, Nogrod.

So I guess it's Eodwine's call about how grand he wants to be. A simple hall, or a more elaborate castle-like business.

I sort of like the idea of building an oven. I'd imagine the baked goods are somewhat nicer coming from an oven than they would be if made in a dish set in an open fire.

[JennyHallu]

I'm a little confused on where Eodwine gets his ideas of generosity. I can't find a definition of Anglo-Saxon guest-rights; the closest I can find is Greek xenia, which was highly formalized. And in Greece.

I fear Eodwine runs the risk of over-familiarity with his vassals and subjects, and Marenil shall work to correct that. If Eodwine insists on inviting anyone to stay as a guest of the hall, he will probably ensure those guest-rights only put so much of a burden on Eodwine: who has a large household to support already and no income besides his taxes, which must be used for more than just support of his house, but also for his reciprocal duties to his taxpayers. So he will encourage the idea that free-guests have rights to a pallet in the hall and a proscribed (and very simple) meal, much like a waystation for pilgrims in medieval Europe. I also wonder if, while freeguesting is one thing, care of a horse or packbeast shouldn't carry some nominal fee...that can be far more expensive than feeding a man.

And as for providing better and more space for Eodwine's household to live, Marenil is of the practical opinion that, while loyalty is a lovely thing, each of Eodwine's vassals has their own families and hides to look after, and without adequately providing for those, Eodwine doesn't fulfil his responsibilities as their lord. A married man should be able to have some private room and space to share with his wife, and Marenil sees these children as people who will only get older: and eventually need their own space. I think he is likely to suggest some sort of dormitory or barracks for single men with no dependents. That could be a very simple long, low hall, with a private room to serve as quarters and office for Garwine. He may also climb up into the attic space, and see what can be done there to convert it to quarters for older children or lower maids.

There should also be a proper ladies' bower (Especially in a Mead Hall: if you go by Beowulf the hall is a gathering place mainly for men, and the ladies congregate elsewhere after seeing to their men). In a household such as this, the ladies ought to be producing embroidered fabrics and weavings both for the comfort of their own hall, and to add to Eodwine's small pittance of an income. Also, a ladies' bower serves as an informal place for Saeryn to accept guests and petitioners who feel uncomfortable or uncertain coming to the lord himself. A stillroom, connected to the bower, is also a good idea. One of a Lady's tasks would be the concoction of perfumes and remedies for both the use of the household and for sale.

Marenil may also suggest that the form of the taxes should be changed. His suggestion: if Eodwine allowed his vassals (those that farm) to choose between taxes all in coin and taxes that are a portion of their produce (and makes it slightly more profitable to pay in produce...) he could use his contacts in Dol Amroth to sell his goods down there, far from where they are grown. My take on Dol Amroth has been to compare that land to Italy, with its poor quality, rocky soil. (Come on, obvious comparison...it's a principality) Great for sheep, and maybe some fruit plants...not so much for always-oh-so-necessary grain production. Selling down there could allow Eodwine to make a profit on his taxes, without having an ill-effect on his vassals.

Also, a portion of these agricultural 'tithes' could be kept for the consumption of the household, and lower the grocery bill a bit. A supply of grain could allow a hearty porridge to be made for free-guests, that could be always on the stove, and therefore readily available, and more expensive, elaborate meals prepared in smaller quantities, solely for the consumption of the household, without as large a drain on Eodwine's purse.

Also, oughtn't Eodwine be keeping chickens, a dairy cow, and a pig somewhere? Chickens are a constant supply of food, if managed correctly, a cow would provide milk, butter, and cheese (perhaps two cows would be needed, considering the size of the household...), and the expense of keeping one pig is balanced by quite a significant amount of easily preserved meats (A smoked ham or slab of bacon keeps quite well in a cool cellar), not to mention the lard necessary for a lot of medieval cooking, candle-making, soap-making, and any number of crafts to make both life more comfortable, and perhaps line Eodwine's pockets.

Ooh! Another idea! and another way for Eodwine to supplement his income: he could board horses for the wealthy in the city who don't have Eodwine's room to expand.

If we have a large lot to work with, then, here are Marenil's suggestions:

Build a barracks, a bower and stillroom, a smoke-shed, a chicken-coop, an animal shed with a pen, and convert the attic space for residential space.

In Marenil's view, the only people who should be living in the present residential wing (Not including attic space) are noble and paying guests, vassals with dependents, Eodwine, Saeryn, and himself (Because as steward, he needs an area both private and secure). Womenfolk and children he would relegate to the attic space, (except perhaps Frodides due to age) which if insulated and planned properly wouldn't be uncomfortable. Menfolk would be relegated to the barracks. I think that would put Leofric and Trys (and Lys when he's better, depending on how old he is) out there.

Whew...I actually came to a conclusion in all that...

[Firefoot]

he could board horses for the wealthy in the city who don't have Eodwine's room to expand.

I've already come up with that idea -- although, now that you mention it, I'm not sure if that was ever on the DT or just mentioned a while back in a pm to lmp...

I think that would put Leofric and Trys (and Lys when he's better, depending on how old he is) out there.

Leof sleeps in the stable, and he's not goin' nowhere.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

the only people who should be living in the present residential wing (Not including attic space) are noble and paying guests, vassals with dependents, Eodwine, Saeryn, and himself (Because as steward, he needs an area both private and secure). Womenfolk and children he would relegate to the attic space,

In this instance, Saeryn will, without asking anybody's say-so, remove all of her belongings from her room and go bunk down with the other womenfolk. And if anybody speaks to her of it, she will give to them a patented Saeryn tongue lashing.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Separate thought that has been nagging me:

LMP, what happened to the maids that were around in The White Horse? There was at least one... can't remember her name. She and Saeryn shared a giggle when Beth got a face full of ash when showing Saeryn her room her first day there.

Do we still have maids, or shall I address why we have no maids (I can come up with delightful reasons, but I'll probably settle with something believable) when Saeryn brings the matter up to Eodwine?

[JennyHallu]

In this instance, Saeryn will, without asking anybody's say-so, remove all of her belongings from her room and go bunk down with the other womenfolk. And if anybody speaks to her of it, she will give to them a patented Saeryn tongue lashing.

Saeryn may wish to bed up with the women, but Marenil's likely to put his foot down, and he's not likely to put up with a tongue-lashing from someone he sees as a little girl. As Lady, she has appearances and responsibilities to upkeep, and part of that is keeping herself separate from the help. And that implies no condescension, but the right and proper place of the Lady in a class-based structure. Just like how the boss in an office setting today works in an office, and not a cubicle with the regular monkeys. It wouldn't be appropriate.

Just a thought, anyway.

EDIT: and it might make lower maids uncomfortable...They'd never have a time terribly private to themselves if their lady-boss is around in their living space too.

I wonder how much Saeryn's thought through her new position and its implications?

Do we still have maids, or shall I address why we have no maids (I can come up with delightful reasons, but I'll probably settle with something believable) when Saeryn brings the matter up to Eodwine?

I wondered if we could assume some extra help as NPCs: a maid or two, maybe a smaller lad working as groom under Leof, servers on feast days, general laborers working on the construction under the supervision of Garstan and Stigend....

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Celuien

Does that include the previously approved fire-break corridor to the kitchen? Garstan won't press for its construction if Eodwine has reconsidered, since he realizes that approval was given somewhat hurriedly in the midst of watching Leof's victory at the races (as I recall)...

Still trying to catch up and so far failing miserably; at this stage I'm only this far in the discussions and haven't even had a chance to do more than scan the posts from 2 days ago!

Anyway, I expect that Stigend's arguments against the away-from-the-hall kitchen will bring the fire-break corridor into reconsideration. Maybe it already has? I'll find out some time in the next 48 hours, I hope.

I sincerely hope, Lai, that you take all the fun-poking in this discussion thread, as well as what happens to your character on the rpg thread, as all in fun. I really enjoy your writing. If at any point you stop enjoying the experience, please PM me and let me know what the problem is and I'll do my best to correct it for you.

Regarding kitchens: while in England I toured Hampton Court, with its circa 1500 to 1700 kitchens, a very complicated system already then, with many different rooms designed for specific tasks such as fowl cleaning, butchering, prepping before cooking, actual cooking, then garnishing: each step had a different room. ... and that was necessary for a place as large as Hampton Court, which the Eorling Mead Hall isn't. However, I have had a first-hand glimpse at a pre-industrial kitchen, which was high-vaulted, all stone, and had an oven that was a recessed affair working pretty much as a glorified fire-hearth; the smoke would travel up the slanted roof out a hole at the top of the vault. I hope that explains it. Perhaps there's a website showing the kitchens of Hampton Court that would be worth a look. That said, I think Nogrod's quote regarding medieval kitchens is the better way to go.

Nogrod, "no additional expenses" per se. The king has given the Eorl that most precious 'medieval' commodity, land. I haven't generated any specifics as to how much, but it's all in and around Edoras. Most of it is farmed, as the land around Edoras is surely more likely to be occupied than farther abroad. Thus Eodwine's chief source of income is Rent (fees), as he has no land that he can directly farm. The secondary income source is Fines. So if I really need to, I could write into the RPG a rash of criminal activity. (hahahaha!)

Okay, that brings me even to 7:48 A.M. today (still on that post); gotta go back to work now....

[JennyHallu]

Can't wait for you to catch up, LMP, this is FUN!

EDIT: and I'm workign on the income problem.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Can't wait for you to catch up, LMP, this is FUN!

I agree with Jenny wholeheartedly! Never kind of knew how fun is it to try and solve this kind of problems together as groundwork for an RPG! Basically if you are just planning a live RPG you just decide on something on your own and that's not half as much fun than this...

I liked Jenny's ideas about the domestic animals. In fact I had thought it as a fact that there were animals at the Hall, but if not, then we surely should have some. Two cows, a dozen hens and a boss for them, a few pigs, maybe a small herd of sheep...

And a small kitchen garden would be a good idea producing at least herbs...

lmp: If Eodwine has land, does he have land with wood? That I think is a crucial question to most of the possible building projects. If Eodwine has wood, building is basically free of extra expenses, if not, there might be limitations to what could be built, at least in the near future.

PS. I like Celuien's idea of having also an oven - so both an open fire and an oven...