Gandalf and Sauron - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

bombur · 09-06-2002, 04:00 PM

Some comments on relative strenghts...

Sauron with the one ring, versus backstabbing hobbit with Orthanc-fire bronze cannon... Sauron dies. (Lets remember that Fingolfin was only an elf and in a duel he managed to maim Morgoth, a Vala before death.)

Aragorn wielding the palantir, Sauron not... Sauron loses the control of the Palantir.

For rather methaphysical reasons, Istari are SUPPOSED to engage Sauron without succumbing to the same Maiar power trip Sauron is taking in the mortal lands of middle earth. They have come as advisors and co-ordiantors. If all five of the Istari were to cast aside their limitations they basically could have stormed Mordor in form of five combatmachines equal in form to balrogs or as monstrosities like what Sauron was when engaging Elendil etc. If they had succeeded, Valar would have been automatically considering whether they should send 25 new istari to deal with theese new problems in the balance of the natural order. If they had fallen under countless hordes of trolls, nothing accomplished.

LOTR does not address POWER as a roleplaying game does. It is somewhat more mature in the approach, I think. The power of the mights of middle earth is shown in tactics, plots, armies they are able to recruit, allegiancies they are able to convert/gather, wills they are able to manipulate, distances they are able to see through, enemy plans they are able to reveal...

Had Galadriel worn the ring and succumbed to the temptation of raw power it offered, where would Mithrandir gotten the army to storm Lothlorien? Would he have joined with orcs? This all assuming of cource that by her new power of will and their old friendship and association, Galadriel had not been able to convince Gandalf to serve her.

Janne Harju

Tirned Tinnu · 09-06-2002, 04:43 PM

Wonderful replies abound in this thread! You've cleared my mind about Gandalf vs. Sauron.
I do however, have one comment:
Gandalf was not really there to conquer Sauron; he was there to bring balance back into Middle Earth. He sought to co-join the Races of Elves and Men back to their former glory. He wished for peace, above all things, and obviously wished to help in any way that he could.
I see that often his goal was to impart ambition in the hearts of Elves, Men, Hobbits and Dwarves, and to aid them in completing their fate-given tasks.
He was not there to take over - he just helped where he could.

[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

Luinadar · 09-19-2002, 09:53 AM

It probably has less to do with power - how do you measure that kind of mystic strength anyway? - and more to do with motivation, will and ethics. Sure Gandalf could go as apocalyptic as Sauron, but he never would as it wasn't his nature. To emulate Sauron in a flagrant display of power would be evil, period. That is why The Dark Lord is so feared and revered, he has no morality to keep him in check and therefore no real limit to the horrors he is capable of. Saruman however could have been a realistic corporeal threat to Sauron. Sauron himself most likely knew this too, and therefore enslaved the will of Saruman so as to remove his only possible peer in power and darkness.

Ar-Luman · 10-02-2002, 05:45 AM

Obviously strength and power did not win the day for Sauron. So even if Sauron was much more powerful than Gandalf, what did it profit him? Gandalf was the wisest and through wisdom he brought down the Dark Lord. So that in itself shows power greater than strength and might.

Luinadar · 10-02-2002, 11:21 AM

I agree that Gandalfs strategy was crucial to defeating Sauron, but its ultimate execution had more to do with Hobbit resilience and tenacity didnt it? Also in single combat, Gandalf vs Saruman, Saruman won. So although Sauron had no physical presence as such, his potency in single combat would surely still be extremely formidable. Enough to defeat Gandalf?

Legolas · 10-02-2002, 01:23 PM

bombur, you must take into account that by that time, Morgoth had been weakened as his power was spread too thin.

For everyone, there is more on this Istari vs. Sauron in this thread: The Powers of the Istari. I encourage you all to read it. If not anything else, read the first post of it.

Turned Tinnu is right - the wizards weren't sent for direct confrontation, as Tolkien states:

Quote:

...whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.

This is because Middle-earth had to save Middle-earth on its own. If the Istari simply went in and pounded Mordor apart, what would Middle-earth have gained? It would be likely that some other evil would take over since the men, elves, and dwarves had not learned to trust in their own strength and abilities to do what is right. The Ainur of Middle-earth weren't placed there to baby the inhabitants everytime they got in a jam.

[ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

TolkienGurl · 10-02-2002, 01:55 PM

Well, I'm no expert on matters concerning the Valar and of other topics from the Silmarillion, but it seems to me that Gandalf was sent to Middle Earth to be a sort of guardian angel, aiding the those who were prominent in the War of the Ring, yet not becoming too involved. Didn't it say somewhere that the War of the Ring was to be the final and most important struggle in Gandalf's time on Middle Earth? Well, maybe the challenge was trying not to interfere too much.

Correct me if I'm wrong! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

~TolkienGurl~

bombur · 10-06-2002, 09:35 AM

Legalos
”bombur, you must take into account that by that time, Morgoth had been weakened as his power was spread too thin.”

Indeed, but still he was vala, and also Sauron was betting heawily in his armies.

Luinadar:
”It probably has less to do with power - how do you measure that kind of mystic strength anyway? - and more to do with motivation, will and ethics.”

Yes, basically I agree. But it has got to do with power as well. I mean, being offered the one ring Gandalf is very tempted. He knows, thet hie power would increase even more if he had the one ring, and THEN he went apocalyptic.

I do not think the war of the ring and the role of the Istari are merely about ”letting the kids handle it themselves.” I think it is about taking the apocalyptic influence of Maiar and Valar AWAY from mortal lands. I mean, if this is the MAIN goal, then it can hardly be acchieved by unleaching five more maiar with no restraints upon Middle Earth. We shoul remembered that the Valar have history of a serie of literally earth shattering conflicts to think about. They know that it is just not ”how it all was meant to be.”

Janne Harju

Fallen King of Angmar · 10-06-2002, 09:53 AM

yep I love that one too )(

09-06-2002, 04:43 PM	#2
Tirned Tinnu Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Patchogue NY Posts: 158	Wonderful replies abound in this thread! You've cleared my mind about Gandalf vs. Sauron. I do however, have one comment: Gandalf was not really there to conquer Sauron; he was there to bring balance back into Middle Earth. He sought to co-join the Races of Elves and Men back to their former glory. He wished for peace, above all things, and obviously wished to help in any way that he could. I see that often his goal was to impart ambition in the hearts of Elves, Men, Hobbits and Dwarves, and to aid them in completing their fate-given tasks. He was not there to take over - he just helped where he could. [ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ] [ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ] __________________ 'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

09-19-2002, 09:53 AM	#3
Luinadar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vinyamar, Nevrast Posts: 23	It probably has less to do with power - how do you measure that kind of mystic strength anyway? - and more to do with motivation, will and ethics. Sure Gandalf could go as apocalyptic as Sauron, but he never would as it wasn't his nature. To emulate Sauron in a flagrant display of power would be evil, period. That is why The Dark Lord is so feared and revered, he has no morality to keep him in check and therefore no real limit to the horrors he is capable of. Saruman however could have been a realistic corporeal threat to Sauron. Sauron himself most likely knew this too, and therefore enslaved the will of Saruman so as to remove his only possible peer in power and darkness. __________________ He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust...

10-02-2002, 05:45 AM	#4
Ar-Luman Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Irving, Tx Posts: 27	Obviously strength and power did not win the day for Sauron. So even if Sauron was much more powerful than Gandalf, what did it profit him? Gandalf was the wisest and through wisdom he brought down the Dark Lord. So that in itself shows power greater than strength and might. __________________ "and I, I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference."

10-02-2002, 11:21 AM	#5
Luinadar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vinyamar, Nevrast Posts: 23	I agree that Gandalfs strategy was crucial to defeating Sauron, but its ultimate execution had more to do with Hobbit resilience and tenacity didnt it? Also in single combat, Gandalf vs Saruman, Saruman won. So although Sauron had no physical presence as such, his potency in single combat would surely still be extremely formidable. Enough to defeat Gandalf? __________________ He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust...

10-02-2002, 01:55 PM	#7
TolkienGurl Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 637	Well, I'm no expert on matters concerning the Valar and of other topics from the Silmarillion, but it seems to me that Gandalf was sent to Middle Earth to be a sort of guardian angel, aiding the those who were prominent in the War of the Ring, yet not becoming too involved. Didn't it say somewhere that the War of the Ring was to be the final and most important struggle in Gandalf's time on Middle Earth? Well, maybe the challenge was trying not to interfere too much. Correct me if I'm wrong! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ~TolkienGurl~ __________________ Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall and there is no escape. -Frodo My Livejournal

09-06-2002, 04:00 PM	#1
bombur Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: finland Posts: 126	Some comments on relative strenghts... Sauron with the one ring, versus backstabbing hobbit with Orthanc-fire bronze cannon... Sauron dies. (Lets remember that Fingolfin was only an elf and in a duel he managed to maim Morgoth, a Vala before death.) Aragorn wielding the palantir, Sauron not... Sauron loses the control of the Palantir. For rather methaphysical reasons, Istari are SUPPOSED to engage Sauron without succumbing to the same Maiar power trip Sauron is taking in the mortal lands of middle earth. They have come as advisors and co-ordiantors. If all five of the Istari were to cast aside their limitations they basically could have stormed Mordor in form of five combatmachines equal in form to balrogs or as monstrosities like what Sauron was when engaging Elendil etc. If they had succeeded, Valar would have been automatically considering whether they should send 25 new istari to deal with theese new problems in the balance of the natural order. If they had fallen under countless hordes of trolls, nothing accomplished. LOTR does not address POWER as a roleplaying game does. It is somewhat more mature in the approach, I think. The power of the mights of middle earth is shown in tactics, plots, armies they are able to recruit, allegiancies they are able to convert/gather, wills they are able to manipulate, distances they are able to see through, enemy plans they are able to reveal... Had Galadriel worn the ring and succumbed to the temptation of raw power it offered, where would Mithrandir gotten the army to storm Lothlorien? Would he have joined with orcs? This all assuming of cource that by her new power of will and their old friendship and association, Galadriel had not been able to convince Gandalf to serve her. Janne Harju

10-06-2002, 09:35 AM	#8
bombur Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: finland Posts: 126	Legalos ”bombur, you must take into account that by that time, Morgoth had been weakened as his power was spread too thin.” Indeed, but still he was vala, and also Sauron was betting heawily in his armies. Luinadar: ”It probably has less to do with power - how do you measure that kind of mystic strength anyway? - and more to do with motivation, will and ethics.” Yes, basically I agree. But it has got to do with power as well. I mean, being offered the one ring Gandalf is very tempted. He knows, thet hie power would increase even more if he had the one ring, and THEN he went apocalyptic. I do not think the war of the ring and the role of the Istari are merely about ”letting the kids handle it themselves.” I think it is about taking the apocalyptic influence of Maiar and Valar AWAY from mortal lands. I mean, if this is the MAIN goal, then it can hardly be acchieved by unleaching five more maiar with no restraints upon Middle Earth. We shoul remembered that the Valar have history of a serie of literally earth shattering conflicts to think about. They know that it is just not ”how it all was meant to be.” Janne Harju

10-06-2002, 09:53 AM	#9
Fallen King of Angmar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 51	yep I love that one too )( __________________ "Come not between the Nazghul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."

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