The Great Eagle Mystery

Perhaps the Eagles did not aid the Fellowship in their quest to destroy the ring by simply flying them to Mordor because the plight of the ring was for the free peoples of Middle Earth to accomplish. The Eagles, although mortal, were considered the messengers and servants of Manwe and were allowed to aid the peoples of Middle Earth in times of need, but maybe not with this specific quest....who knows.

I believe they could make the trip, as Eagles did nest in the highest peaks of the Misty Mountains in the third age, and could fly great distances and easily carry a man. However I agree that the clouds of ash and the summoned elements of weather would be a deterrent to them. But I do think a squad of Eagles would easily handle the Nazgul and their flying steeds. After all, the Eagles do have a solid history of combat and taking care of business. Remember, these were the creatures that fought and destroyed Ancalagon and his brood in the War of Wrath. Even if the Eagles of the Third Age were one-third the size of their kin from the First Age, they would still have a wingspan of roughly 50 feet along with talons, beaks, brains, and the ability to fight as a team in battle. My money would be on the Eagles of Manwe over the slow-witted Nazgul-gang any day.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Welcome to our humble Tolkien-obsessed universe, Friend of Fingon. I hope you find your stay here, as I'm sure we'll find your posts, enjoyable.

Slow-witted? Well, I don't think so [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. TheNazgul would have been formiddable aerial fighters; however, your pointing-out of the Eagle's involvement in the War of Wrath does cast some doubt into the theory that the Nazgul would have been able to beat them.

It raises another issue, as well. Along with your statement:

because the plight of the ring was for the free peoples of Middle Earth to accomplish. The Eagles, although mortal, were considered the messengers and servants of Manwe...

. In the War of Wrath, which was for the salvation of the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth, the Eagles played a significant part. The Valar certainly had a part in this part of Middle-Earthian history; admittedly this situation was rather different, then.

But there are also the Istari, without whom the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth would also have been destroyed. They too were a direct intercession on the part of the Valar, so as you can see, the War of the Ring was not entirely fought only by people of Middle-Earth. The Eagles themselves had a part in the War of the Ring as well; there was first the rescue of Thorin and Co (most important), and then the Battle of Five Armies, and along with that there was Gwaihir's rescue of Gandalf from Orthanc -- absolutely vital -- and from Zirak-Zigil, equally vital. Yes... so as you can see the Valar, even through the Eagles, which are the subject of our discussion here, did not in fact leave the War of the Ring up to the peoples of Middle-Earth at all.

I should have thought that an Eagle attack on Mordor, while a seemingly more forthright act than those stated above, could have been counted to fall under this permissable Valarin involvement.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Having said this, it is true that a glorious Eagle attack would have almost totally taken away from the Gondorin/Human/Elvish fighting contribution to the victory of the War of the Ring. Aragorn would not have proved himself, and neither would Gondor have; who knows? perhaps Gondor would have gone soft after this, a land become sheltered, with a protected king. At any rate, the fact that Aragorn and Gondor/Rohan had to fight, in battle, for their salvation is important.

Perhaps this particular element of the War of the Ring was better left up to Middle-Earthians, then. Hmmm... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] still, the fact remains that it would be Frodo who would have to throw the ring into the fire in the end. That he was transported there by the Eagles can, perhaps, in this case be said to play a similar role to that of Gwaihir in rescuing Gandalf.

-----
Having worked myself up to this point in a somewhat haphazard fashion, I will conclude by reaffirming by belief that the Eagles, while undoubtedly terrible fighters, would not have carried such a mission as this through. The chance that they would be 'feared' out of the sky is a distinct one, as well as the possibility of their being dismayed and quenched by Sauron's massive emanating psionic power (there would have been no greater power there to shield them from this, and they could not have escaped the range of Sauron's Eye were they to execute this mission). There is more, though.

It is interesting to note that Gwaihir, reported to have been in the area at the time of the Battle of the Pellenor, did not lead any attack on the Nazgul themselves in this battle; neither could they attack the Nazgul in the battle before the Gates, a battle in which they were definitely there in numbers. It may well be that the feat was beyond them, you know.

Finally, the really clinching reason for me is the Nazgulian ability to 'sniff' out the Ring's whereabouts, especially within Mordor itself I should think. As I have pointed out, it is likely that they would know exactly which Eagle (i.e. the one that was carrying Frodo) to go for. The power of all nine of them at once, supported by the nearby Sauron, would have scattered Eagles right and left in their charge; and whichever unfortunate Eagle happened to be carrying Frodo would be mercilessly beaten out of the sky and pillaged for his Ringbearer and Ring. The other Eagles wouldn't matter. The Nazgul would have, surgically almost, removed the Ring from the Eagle pack with mightful ease -- and then of course it would have failed.

Rather a long ramble, and done hastily as well... it should be understandable [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Anyway, welcome again. I hope it's of some use.

[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Very extensive, Master Eagle!

If Gondolin could be protected by immense siege weapons, Sauron, who no doubt knows of the existense of eagles, could have built giant machines for shooting things out of the air. Maybe a precursor of the Patriot missile, don't you think?

And, the destruction of the Ring doesn't mean that the war is over.

[Insert quotes here, but my book is missing]

Sure, they could have ended Sauron forever(assuming they successfully do it), but what about the Southrons? The Easterlings? The Corsairs seething for revenge? Maybe many would slink away, seeing the fall of Sauron, but many, who only depended on Sauron as a sort of united banner, would still have laid waste to the rejoicing Gondorians! C'mon - Sauron destroyed? The people of Gondor would flip over in joy, and won't realise their mistake until it is too late!

[willkill4food]

I wonder what delusion of grandure an eagle would have (ie Sams changing Mordor into a giant garden), maybe the entire land full of thousands and thousands of sheep and horse, no one in the world would know how to use a bow and arrow, and of course no annoying wizards to have to rescue...

I doubt any eagle would of accepted the journey, just as maybe other powerful beings in ME did, the eagles really seem to show up just for rescues, they dont get the people into the mess, they get them out of it...

-willkill

[Mister Underhill]

Downers aren't the only ones to ponder the Great Eagle Mystery, as this dramatization (7MB video) shows.

[Bergil]

someone once hypothesised that the animal minds of the eagles would fall easily to the lure of the ring, and they knew it. this seems very beleivable.

[obloquy]

What would an animal do with the Ring?

[Boromir88]

The Eagles aren't a Middle-earth taxi service and would never agree to such a thing. The times that the Eagles have helped out they only agree to take their passengers so far. In The Hobbit and when Gwaihir rescues Gandalf on Orthanc, both times the Eagles only took their riders so far. They aren't powered by Engergizer batteries and do get tired.

[Raynor]

They aren't powered by Engergizer batteries and do get tired.

Yet in The field of Cormallen, Gwaihir tells Gandalf:

- I would bear you, answered Gwaihir, whither you will, even were you made of stone.

Admitedly, he is the mightiest of Thorondor's descendants, but still - one eagle who _could_ be up to it.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Downers aren't the only ones to ponder the Great Eagle Mystery, as this dramatization (7MB video) shows.

That link doesn't work for me. Are you sure you have the correct address or do I just have problems with my computer?

[Mister Underhill]

D'oh! I of all people should know to check my links when I post. The busted one above is now fixed. Thanks for the heads-up, Thin.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

D'oh! I of all people should know to check my links when I post. The busted one above is now fixed. Thanks for the heads-up, Thin.

You're welcome.
I checked it; it was funny

[Glaurung]

An interesting topic... I think it would be very weird if the eagles wouldn't refuse to do that. They weren't very interested in the wars of men anyway, were they? And even if Gandalf would have one of the eagles consented to carry Frodo to Mount Doom, it would have been quite easy for Sauron or his servants to spot a great eagle with a hobbit on its back flying to Mordor, save flying straight to Mount Doom. Of course the eagle could have left Frodo somewhere outside Mordor, but how could Frodo then get over the mountains, for he would then be alone (for nine eagles carrying the fellowship would look a bit weird to Sauron, wouldn't it?) with not even Gollum helping him... If I'm right with the fact that it would be impossible for Gollum to follow an eagle flying high, if Gollum even knew about Frodo riding an eagle.

[Farael]

This sure is an interesting topic... but I think there are two points that are not being considered.

-If I'm not mistaken (and I may be) at the Council of Elrond, it's said that a frontal attack on Mordor would undobtedly fail. A lot of eagles flying straight into Mordor would be considered a frontal attack, right?

-Now, even if the Eagles managed to beat out the Nazghul (or their lovely birds, because a grounded Nazghul is not able to fight a flying eagle) avoided the poisonous gases and other such things and were not tempted by the ring... what would stop Sauron from detaching a couple thousand orcs, men and even Oliphaunts to Mt. Doom? or even better, why would HE not be there? If I'm not mistaken, it's in the movie not the book where it's said that Sauron can't regain his shape. I might be wrong, but there's nothing in the book to say that Sauron could not go there and ruin the party for the eagles.

Even if Sauron could not take a human(oid) shape, there would certainly be A LOT of orcs and such things clogging everything up. Heck, I'm sure Sauron would be willing to force the orcs to put up even wooden structures on top of where the molten lava is to get the Ring... and if a couple thousand Orcs die in the fires, whawt does he care? once he's got the ring it's game over.

[Raynor]

I might be wrong, but there's nothing in the book to say that Sauron could not go there and ruin the party for the eagles.

In letter #246, Tolkien states that:

Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.

In the same letter, he comments on how Sauron himself would come to claim the ring from Frodo (if he didn't destroy it). In The black gate opens, TTT, Gollum says that "he has only four (fingers) on the Black Hand", which is a further indication that Sauron has a body.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Raynor

In letter #246, Tolkien states that:
In the same letter, he comments on how Sauron himself would come to claim the ring from Frodo (if he didn't destroy it). In The black gate opens, TTT, Gollum says that "he has only four (fingers) on the Black Hand", which is a further indication that Sauron has a body.

Thanks Raynor, I do not have the letters but I did remember Gollum's quote. Yet I was not sure it might have meant something else. Thanks a lot.

[A_Brandybuck]

I think, that the real question concerning the eagles is not, if they would make it to fly to the Orodruin with Frodo and the Ring, but if they are allowed to interfere in the events of Middle-Earth.
It has been often posted, that the Eagles are the messengers of Manwe in Middle-Earth. Consequently they are under the control of Manwe. But we know, that the Valar, of course including Manwe, sent the Istari to Middle-Earth to assist the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth in their fight against the Dark Lord Sauron.
But the Valar didn't send the Istari to lead the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth against Sauron and consequently play the main-role in defeating Sauron. So why shouldn't the same rules count for the Eagles?

When the Valar wanted the Eagles to play a main-role in freeing Middle-Earth, why did they make the efforts that the Istari were diminished in power and their mission had only supporting character?

But flying with Frodo to Mount Doom means exactly taking a(the) main-role in defeating Sauron.

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by A_Brandybuck

I think, that the real question concerning the eagles is not, if they would make it to fly to the Orodruin with Frodo and the Ring, but if they are allowed to interfere in the events of Middle-Earth.
It has been often posted, that the Eagles are the messengers of Manwe in Middle-Earth. Consequently they are under the control of Manwe. But we know, that the Valar, of course including Manwe, sent the Istari to Middle-Earth to assist the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth in their fight against the Dark Lord Sauron.
But the Valar didn't send the Istari to lead the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth against Sauron and consequently play the main-role in defeating Sauron. So why shouldn't the same rules count for the Eagles?

When the Valar wanted the Eagles to play a main-role in freeing Middle-Earth, why did they make the efforts that the Istari were diminished in power and their mission had only supporting character?

But flying with Frodo to Mount Doom means exactly taking a(the) main-role in defeating Sauron.

Agreed. None of the other explanations (tired eagles, eagle zappers, etc.) make much sense and seem to be grasping at straws. On a side note, I disagree with Frodo needing to make the long jouney in order to be "tempered" enough to release the Ring---I believe the opposite. The Ring's power over Frodo grew with every passing moment of the journey, until it nearly had him in the end. I think that Frodo was in much better physical and psychological---and spiritual---condition ealier in his journey...

I prefer to consider the Eagles as messengers of Manwe and not wanting to take an active role in changing the course of history in Middle-earth. Their actions (rescuing Gandalf from Orthanc could be viewed as an "issue" between Istari that never should have occured in the first place---and rescuing Frodo and Sam from Mount Doom as action after the conclusion of the war had been determined).

One question though: What of the Eagles involvement in The Battle of Five Armies? (Other, of course, than that Tolkien had not adequately thought out his mythology at that point...)

Also, the Eagles mandate of non-involvement aside, there is a point about them vs. Nazgul that I would like to make. At the Council of Elrond (where the decision to have an Eagle carry Frodo would have been made) the ringwraiths had just been washed away at the Ford. When Frodo asks if that is the end of them, Gandalf replies, "No, their horses must have perished, and without them they are crippled. But the Ringwraiths themselves cannot be so easily destroyed. But there is nothing more to fear from them at present." If the Eagles had been an option, the timing could not have been better---the Ringwraiths were crippled and far from their Fell beasts. And I know of no other winged forces of Sauron...

[Formendacil]

Personally, I hold to the theory that the Eagles carrying Frodo to Mordor would have been WAY too obvious...

Not from a storyline point of view, but from and in-story point of view.

The Eagles, you know, are pretty conspicuous creatures. Any sighting of them tends to herald something big. So Sauron, who's eyes are constantly scouring the West for signs of suspicious activity (like Aragorn...), and whose Palantír handily solves the problem of limited sightrange, would most likely have seen the Eagles coming.

What then?

Well, even the Eagles take a certain amount of time to go from Point A to Point B. Sauron, who certainly would have had Rivendell at the top of his "to watch" list at the time Frodo was there, would have noticed almost immediately if the Eagles had picked up some passengers, and headed straight to Mordor.

Sauron, who was in a corporeal form, and more than able to move and fight (contrary to what PJ would have us think...) would certainly have time to get to Orodruin, and camp out there.

And even without the Winged Nazgûl, there were undoubtedly several ways in which Sauron could attack a flying eagle. But even if there wasn't, he could just wait at Mt. Doom until Frodo, Gandalf, and the Eagles showed up.

What then?

Well, since Gandalf was still Gandalf the Grey, and had not yet received his greater mandate as Gandalf the White, he probably would have died. After all, the Balrog got him, and Sauron was a lot stronger than the Balrog. Meanwhile, all it takes is a host of orks to keep Frodo occupied (or even just a big boulder in front of the entrance) so that he can't drop the Ring in.

With Gandalf and any other companions dead, Sauron can now turn his full attention to Frodo. Face to face, the Ring wanting to return to Sauron, is there any doubt what would happen?

Sauron would regain the Ring.

Remember, the great strength of Gandalf and Elrond's plan was it's utter foolishness. The reason that was so successful was that it meant that it was an IGNOREABLE thought, and so Frodo and Sam were able to SECRETLY sneak into Mordor. Eventually, Gandalf even went so far to aid this secrecy that he risked pretty much half the military might of the West in a suicidal march on the Morannon.

The Eagles aiding the Battle at the Morannon was therefore an asset at this point, since it added to the spectacle and likely helped keep Sauron's attention on the West. As for the Battle of Five Armies, there was no Sauronic threat at the time, nor was there any reason for secrecy.

That, basically, is my opinion.

[Sardy]

Not sure that I agree. Sauron's downfall was that, in his lust for power, he never in his wildest imagination considered that anyone might try to destroy the Ring. THAT was the strength of Gandalf's plan, not it's "foolishness."

That said, if Frodo (or Gandalf, or Aragorn, or Glorfindel) were to attempt to ride an Eagle to Mt. Doom, they would have had a very good (better that Frodo walking it there) chance. I still contend that the Ringwraiths were currently out-of-commission. Sauron would never have blocked passage to Mt. Doom (either with orcs or boulders) because he would have assumed that whoever was riding the Eagle was riding in to challenge him mano-e-mano using his own ring against him. Sauron would've been shocked and dismayed as the Eagle swooped right on past his tower and on to the Crack of Doom, leaving the Dark Lord with no time to do anything but watch as the Ring's inevitable unmaking proceeded.

[Formendacil]

Sauron would not necessarily have expected a one-on-one fight. The Eagles, after all, were the messengers of Manwë, and their appearance would mean a certain blessing from the Valar- a blessing that a one-on-one fight USING the Ring would never have garnered from the Valar.

Furthermore, anyone with strength half-ways capable of challenging Sauron with the Ring would have spent time using it, becoming stronger. They wouldn't hop on an eagle and head straight to Mordor! Especially if they were wise and powerful enough in the first place to convince an Eagle to take them there...

Anyway, that's my opinion. You don't have to accept it...

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Anyway, that's my opinion. You don't have to accept it...

Just making for interesting discussion. I personally believe that the Eagles were mandated not to get involved, as well. But barring that mandate, I believe that they might've been the best solution.

I was just discussing this with another friend who is also a writer, and it really is simply AMAZING that Tolkien could have created such a rich, detailed, expansive and complex world (a great feat in and of itself!) and also been a brilliant enough storyteller to, within that world, make the case that the only option was Frodo's journey...!!!