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10-06-2002, 03:00 PM | #41 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Sep 2002
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I never in no way trusted Gollum one bit. I guess its the shrewd pessimist in me, but I knew that he was not going to change. I did not feel sorry for him either, because i felt that had he wanted to change badly enough, he could. I guess thats what I think of all people, even hobbit-like Gollum.
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11-05-2003, 11:35 PM | #42 | |
Pile O'Bones
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Cheers
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Yet the lies that Melkor...sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and connot be destroyed, and ever and annon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit unto the latest days. |
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11-06-2003, 02:49 AM | #43 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2003
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The movies made him look too sympathic. I never felt any sympathy for Gollum reading the book, while watching ttt you really start liking him and feel sorry for him... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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11-06-2003, 03:31 AM | #44 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jun 2003
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i also never trusted gollum. he was too evil, at my point of view and capable of tricking frodo and sam and eventually he did. and besides, i never did think that giving him another chance can change his evil desires, he was too corrupted by the ring that he can never see the new life he can have in front of him.
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11-06-2003, 11:05 AM | #45 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Green land of Ireland
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In my opinion Smeagol deserves our pity because its my opinion that the ring drove him mad. There is a kind of split personality going on in his mind, a battle between Smeagol and Gollum.
Gollum is the surviver, the one who could stoop to living deep under a mountin eating raw fish and and the odd Goblin or Orc. But Smeagol was the poor unfortunate soul to find the evil ring and be corrupted by it. If Frodo (who knew the pain of the ring) could pity him then surely we should also pity him, but to trust him i think not. Like a Nazúl he is drawn to the ring and as Gandalf himself said "but both loves and hates the ring as he loves and hates himself" well this is just my opinion and i welcome any debate on wat i have said
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11-06-2003, 02:43 PM | #46 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I didn't trust Gollum in that I thought he would always help Frodo, but I greatly pitied Gollum, and always hoped he would turn back to being good. I think it's really sad in Cirith Ungol when he got back from talking with Shelob, and was sitting there stroking Frodo, and *almost* repented, and then Sam woke up and snapped at him. I don't like the way Sam acts towards him at all. When Frodo is nice to him, and calls him Smeagol, he seems to be getting better. It's when he feels like his master 'tricksed' him that he turns bad again. But still, he isn't beyond hope, because even after he tells Shelob about them, he comes so close to repenting!! They'd better do that scene justice in the movie! If they leave that out, I will be really mad at PJ! When I first read the books last year, I hoped so much right up to the very end, that Smeagol would repent and turn good. And even reading it for the second time this year, knowing how it would end, I still greatly pitied Gollum. Even after he betrayed them to Shelob. I like Sam's loyalty to Frodo a lot, but I really like Frodo much better because of his mercy towards Gollum. And I don't think Gollum was evil, because evil is the total and complete absence of any good, and there was still good in him.
Arwen
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11-06-2003, 04:00 PM | #47 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Well, to be honest, I was always wary of him. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Even when he seemed nicer, I was always wondering about him in the back of my mind, and... thinking. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I know... but it's logical, if you think about it.
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11-07-2003, 12:17 AM | #48 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Portland,Oregon USA
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After I read THE TAMING OF SMEAGOL, I stayed unbias, sure he changed, but I know Sam is very trustworthy and cautious. I stayed with Sam's idea that Gollum was tricking them.
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11-07-2003, 01:28 PM | #49 |
Pile O'Bones
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Yes, I also looked at Sam's reaction to Smeagol and then I thought twice about him. But I guess even when he was a Hobbit, he was rather evil - he killed Deagol! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]
~Lotessa |
11-07-2003, 01:47 PM | #50 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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But was he really evil as a hobbit? I think the Ring had a lot to do with it. It was drawing him. After all, it does have a will of its own, and wanted to be found. Maybe it was drawing people to it so strongly it was incredibly hard to resist.
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Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean |
11-07-2003, 06:06 PM | #51 |
Pile O'Bones
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Location: ::looks around:: Crap, I'm lost again...
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I wanted to trust Gollum, and I was hoping that he would change... but after "Journey to the Crossroads" I suspected that he wasn't. I was really disappointed that he betrayed Sam and Frodo, but I wasn't completely surprised.
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11-07-2003, 08:28 PM | #52 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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I don't believe that Smeagol was evil from the outset. But he was secretive and somewhat of an outsider (his name suggests as much). And he was clearly unusually (especially for Hobbit-kind) susceptible to the Ring. Clearly, he is a tragic character, to be pitied. Had Deagol never found the Ring, he would probably have led an unremarkable life. But, once Deagol found it, his fate was, I believe, sealed. Much as he tried to resist it in response to Frodo's kindness, I do not think that he would ever have escaped its influence, regardless of Sam's involvement.
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11-07-2003, 08:54 PM | #53 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Following where the wind takes me...
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Yes, I did trust Smeagol, but I knew that Gollum was and always would be evil. I knew that eventually Gollum would overcome Smeagol and persuade him against the two Hobbits. It's a common fact that Gollum has always wanted the ring, and he would've done everything in his power to get it. Gollum was going to get into Smeagol's head one way or another, and he was going to get to the ring if he had to go through hell and back. And he did, he went through Mordor only to claim the ring, but fall to his fiery death once his prize was claimed.
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Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens... -The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers: Book 2, Chapter 3) |
11-07-2003, 10:26 PM | #54 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
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Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean |
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11-07-2003, 10:55 PM | #55 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
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As for Boromir, I feel that the Ring would have been keen to escape from Frodo, having not intended to fall into Hobbit hands in the first place (it would have preferred a Goblin when it escaped Gollum), and Frodo was displaying a remarkable resistance to its wiles. Boromir, being the son of the Steward of Gondor, was a prime target. So I am sure that it worked on him just as much as it had worked on Smeagol. And Boromir resisted for a good few months, unlike Smeagol.
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11-07-2003, 11:44 PM | #56 |
Pile O'Bones
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Hmm..I wonder why Smeagol was the most drawn to the Ring and that he would go so far as to murder his best friend.
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11-09-2003, 11:33 AM | #57 |
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Well, I always pictured Gollum as a baddie from the first time I read tLotR, although I recall that I felt bad for him when he fell into Mt. Doom (how odd). No other character, who had possession of the ring, murdered to obtain it, that I know of, and Gollum murdered Deagol before he even owned the ring. I'm sure it was the ring's influence that pushed him over the edge, (he probably wouldn't have killed Deagol over a plan old gold ring... maybe) but it was a very bad start to it's owner/slave-ship, none the less. I certainly never pictured Gollum the way he was portrayed in the movie version; sad and squeeky and almost huggable. In print, I always thought he was too far gone from years of owning the ring, and from just being a bad egg from the get go. I'd be cranky too if I were over 500 years old.
I also agree with all of you who said Gollum is the bad guy you love to hate. The thing I like the most about tLotR is the fantastic dialogue, and Gollum has some fantastic lines. From his amusing ambition when he contemplates gaining the ring back: "Perhaps we grows very strong, stronger than Wraiths. Lord Smeagol? Gollum the Great? The Gollum! Eat fish every day, three times a day, fresh from the Sea." to moment when he being questioned by Faramir and is asked who he is and where he's going: "We are lost, lost," said Gollum. "No name, no business, no Precious, nothing. Only empty. Only hungry; yes we are hungry. A few little fishes, nasty bony little fishes, for a poor creature, and they say death. So wise they are; so just, so very just." I smile every time I read those lines, and many others. And, of course, Frodo could not have destroyed the ring with himself, for whatever that's worth in redeeming Gollum. I don't think it does. All in all, Gollum makes a great story and has a character background as interesting as any of the main characters. |
11-10-2003, 10:33 AM | #58 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Green land of Ireland
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i agree with The Cool Took Gollum was always alot more sinister in the books, after i finished the lotr this year again i went back and read his chapter in the hobbit and it was very interesting looking into his character and behavour now that i had the extra information. I firmly believe that the ring meant all to him, it was his friend,father, master. And when frodo obtained the ring Frodo took on the master role, but his heart had been turned to darkness.
when he repented after the shelob encounter it shows just how strong he was, that after all these years he could still have some good in him.... or mabey he just felt guilty since frodo was probably the first person in a long time to show him any kindness
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11-10-2003, 10:50 AM | #59 |
Tears of the Phoenix
Join Date: Jun 2003
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When I first met Gollum/Smeagol, he gave me the creeps and I did not like him. However, after Frodo was nice and all and Gollum became more Smeagol, I pitied him and actually started to like him, in a round-about way (one reason for my anger at Sam in the books). Of course, no one can deny that Sam had a good head on his shoulders deciding it was best not to trust Gollum/Smeagol. I always hoped that Smeagol would change into Smeagol for good, and I even thought it possible at one point.
As for whether Smeagol was bad in the beginning, I think not. He was probably weak in moral character (contrary to Boromir) and that is why he succumbed so quickly.
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11-10-2003, 11:10 AM | #60 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
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Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean |
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11-11-2003, 12:53 PM | #61 |
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Initially, I thought i could trust him but after learning of his multiple personallity, i found that trusting him could be like trusting your hand in a toaster
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11-12-2003, 03:07 PM | #62 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Up a tree somewhere in Caras Galadhon...or England
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I didn't trust him. I was wary of him through the Dead Marshes...then Sam overheard him. That bit I found particularly intruiging. Now, was it just me, or did you think that in the book it was Slinker attempting to overcome Stinker but in the film it was the other way round? (Stinker attempting to overcome Slinker). I can't really remember the book Gollum, I need to reread it. But that was the general impression I got...
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'"Forweg can lead you no longer; for he is dead...I slew him...I will govern this fellowship now, or leave it." "As it was when he joined us, so it is again. He kills to make room."' |
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11-12-2003, 07:37 PM | #63 |
Candle of the Marshes
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Flyover Country
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I wanted to believe in him but really couldn't; I didn't doubt his sincerity *at the moment he was speaking* but he had not exactly shown himself to be steadfast before, except in his loyalty to the Precious. He just wasn't the kind of person you could depend on without question, like Sam, and never would be. He does look bad compared to Sam Of No Self-Interest, I have to say. (OK, Sam's a little jealous of Gollum in the sense of Frodo taking him under his wing, but wouldn't you sleep with one eye open in the same situation?)
Saucepan Man, I think you're right that Smeagol was inherently - not evil, exactly, but more weak in the face of temptation, more naturally prone so to speak. Also, while the comparison to Boromir is apt, I never got the impression that Boromir meant to murder Frodo regardless in order to get at the Ring. It's easy to see him killing half-accidentally in the heat of the moment, but if he had really wanted Frodo dead, he could have done it in a heartbeat. The fact that he did *not* kill Frodo efficiently, then take the Ring, argues that he had a much stronger character than Smeagol, especially since, as you say, this was the result of several months' exposure. Smeagol, on the other hand - one look at the Ring, one demand (not even Boromir's halfhearted kickoff "Could we share?" proposal, just "I want that"). Deagol says no, Smeagol strangles him in the next five minutes, and knowing Gollum's later style it's safe to say that Deagol was attacked from behind. Boromir, whatever his personal issues, would never had done anything like that; and in fact, he didn't.
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11-13-2003, 04:20 PM | #64 |
Haunting Spirit
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Um I didn't exactly trust him in the begining, then he became tamed, but in the end, I didn't trust him once again.
He went through a period where he was calm in the books, and he didn't scare me(And Frodo). In the movies he doesn't really go through a period like in the books where he was tamed and didn't have conversations with himself either. He just kind of acted like a wild animal.
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I thirst no longer, drenching my soul. Pour out like water You're my only infactuation, don't leave me stranded in my obsession My purpose, my possesion.Live and die in my obession-SkilletI'm beautifully addictedSAM |
11-13-2003, 06:01 PM | #65 |
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I must say I love smeagol, and I love how his personalities change, i think it's really funny.
I think it's weird how his appearence changed from a hobbit to how it is now just by the influence of the ring. |
11-13-2003, 06:07 PM | #66 |
Haunting Spirit
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Well the ring was like a powerful machine, and it could control people, and change them from the inside out.
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I thirst no longer, drenching my soul. Pour out like water You're my only infactuation, don't leave me stranded in my obsession My purpose, my possesion.Live and die in my obession-SkilletI'm beautifully addictedSAM |
11-13-2003, 08:04 PM | #67 | |
Raffish Rapscallion
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
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Personally I never trusted Gollum/Smeagol for a second. Obvioulsy I found him a tragic figure & did actually feel sorry for him (believe it or not), but I never fully trusted him. Especially after the conversation between his halves that Sam overheard (in the books).
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11-13-2003, 10:20 PM | #68 |
Tears of the Phoenix
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In the books, the scene was sad and pitiful...almost frightening. He was so messed up.
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11-14-2003, 07:39 AM | #69 |
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Gollum's soul was a sadly stunted thing before he found the Ring. Once the Ring had destroyed what little their was of it, the Ring ruled entirely. There was no possibility of him doing anything but trying to get the Ring back
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11-14-2003, 06:08 PM | #70 | |
Raffish Rapscallion
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11-15-2003, 02:25 AM | #71 |
Beholder of the Mists
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now
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I felt sorry for Gollum, but I never trusted him. When I first heard of him I just did not like him. I would have been like Sam. During the entire time I read the book, and whenever Gollum came up I would say to myself "Why don't you just kill him, he is going to cause you trouble" (I know that sounds really lame, but that is really what I said). I know, I know that the ring probably would not have been distroyed if he had not been there. But I still don't like him.
He is an interesting charater though [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
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11-15-2003, 12:45 PM | #72 |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2003
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I kinda felt a little bit of pity for Gollum but that didn't last long. After he lead them into Shelob's Lair, I stopped feeling any type of warm emotion towards Gollum. When I think of Gollum I think of cold and darkness.
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11-15-2003, 02:19 PM | #73 |
Tears of the Phoenix
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Putting dimes in the jukebox baby.
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I just feel sympathy for the tyke. I just think it is so sad, being so corrupt. Can you imagine living with your hateful, shriveled shell of a self for hundreds of years. Living with all that hate, all that bitterness, all that evil?
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I'm sorry it wasn't a unicorn. It would have been nice to have unicorns. |
11-15-2003, 02:49 PM | #74 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 16
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Quote:
Cheers
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Yet the lies that Melkor...sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and connot be destroyed, and ever and annon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit unto the latest days. |
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11-15-2003, 06:05 PM | #75 |
Haunting Spirit
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Yeah, like you know that he's,um, distorted,and you feel you have to feel guilty for him.
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I thirst no longer, drenching my soul. Pour out like water You're my only infactuation, don't leave me stranded in my obsession My purpose, my possesion.Live and die in my obession-SkilletI'm beautifully addictedSAM |
11-28-2003, 06:30 PM | #76 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Valinor
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I always liked Gollum as a character, always felt sorry for him, but I never really trusted him. I agree that it's letting him off too easily to just blame the ring for all of his actions. After all, lots of characters were tempted or affected by the ring, and they chose to behave differently from Gollum. Way way back, when Gollum killed Deagol for the ring, it was the first time he had ever laid eyes upon it. Now there were a lot of other characters who were not so driven by need for the ring that they had to have it, even if they had to commit murder to get their hands on it.
I think in the end, I don't trust Gollum for the same reason that I feel sorry for him - the fact that he's weak. Someone like Frodo or Sam was able to resist the power of the ring and hold on to their humanity (or it's hobbit equivalent), but Gollum just let go and allowed the ring to take hold way too easily. You could argue that the fact that he was weak wasn't his fault, and maybe that would be fair to say, but he's still not someone you want to trust, because when it comes right down to it, he'll do what he has to in order to get the ring, because he just hasn't got the strength to say no to it.
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Above all shadows rides the Sun and Stars forever dwell: I will not say the Day is done, nor bid the Stars farewell. -- Samwise Gamgee |
12-06-2003, 08:46 AM | #77 |
Illusionary Holbytla
Join Date: Dec 2003
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I always pitied Gollum/Smeagol. I never trusted Gollum but if I didn't trust Smeagol I wanted to. However, I also really liked Sam and trusted his judgement. I guess it depended on where in the book it was. At times when Smeagol was on top I liked him but I guess I always sort of knew that the bad Gollum would end up on top.
The ring had such a hold on him that he couldn't completely help it. I don't think that Gollum started out bad but he definitely had some bad qualities which the ring played on: jealousy, greed, etc. Also he did not seem to be a strong character. This was also a reason which the ring took such an immediate hold on him. So I suppose I never completely trusted him. Again, a large part of this is probably because I liked Sam a lot. |
12-06-2003, 05:24 PM | #78 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Dec 2003
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I actually felt sorry for Smeagol because he starts of as a normal Hobbit or something close to one and after his cousin Deagol finds the ring and Smeagol kills him for it, then Smeagol is chased away from his home and family and becomes Gollum. then in The T.T. Smeagol starts to fight to control his evil side but fails in RotK.
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12-07-2003, 07:43 AM | #79 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Green land of Ireland
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Smeagol's life is a very sad story in my opinion and i felt great pity for him while i read the books. Mainly because he nearly turn back to the light(for want of a better phrase), untill the badness at the forbidden pool when he believed Fordo(his "new" master) betrayed him.I think that snapped his fragile new personality and let Gollum lose again..
A truely sad story.
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12-07-2003, 11:07 AM | #80 |
Maniacal Mage
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Yeah, Smeagol's life was very depressing. And you can't really blame him...or can you?...
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'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.' |
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