Magic in Middle-earth

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1566</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The boy who forgot his name

There's got to be a difference in the memory retentions of a 7 year old and a Black Numenorean wizard. But perhaps you have 'Mouth of Sauron' written in you career future, burra <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 515</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The boy who forgot his name

Picky picky. If there hadn't been another Kenny, who knows how long I wouldn't have known. I don't know, that's for sure.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 159

Oh tra-la-la-lally, here down in the valley We are starting it over, seemingly

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 99</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The boy who forgot his name

Tra la la lally is my line, thief! <img src=tongue.gif ALT="">

-red

"I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will."</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 160

You may as well add that all quoting from JRRT are thieves lol. In fact all the lines here are his or derived from his work

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
Posts: 473</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/gwindlord/eagle.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

Wow, I've just remembered this thread, Saulotus. Yes, I will try and write an article on Magic in ME, but I have two Turin quizzes, a maze (I hope to get it done within the next month) and my Riding Triumphal instalments all pending at the moment and on top of that I'm getting a lot o work at the end of this term. I'll try and write it as ASAP, though that may beover a month.

Farewell! Wherever you fare, until your eyries receive you at the journey’s end!</p>

[The Black Lieutenant]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 9</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/mouth_of_sauron/sauron.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

I'm glad I found this thread, because I've recently decided to write my Memoirs. Only trouble is, not only do I not remember my own name, I don't remember much of anything in connexion with my past. lol

Perhaps you erudite fellows can help me out. (Any suggestions will be credited in my credits page, and footnote links in the text of this piece of fan fiction will link to the credits page).

If you could, please elaborate on the two candidates you mentioned for being possible true identities of MoS, and why you think they are candidates. Also include references to specific books wherein I might read more about them.

Elsewhere it has been suggested that there were more than one Mouth of Sauron, and that was why he was rumoured to be of such great age. But if MoS was only in Sauron's service for 70 years it might make more sense to not take the line &quot;he himself had forgotten it (his name)&quot; so literally. Or perhaps it was forgotten as the result of a conscious effort, for any number of reasons. What do you think of these ideas?

In order to write these Memoirs I would also need more information about the Black Numenoreans. I have read the Silmarillion but not the HoME. Which books of the HoME would help me in this rather ambitious endeavour?

Finally, if what I am attempting has been done before, please let me know so that I can read what has already been written about MoS and incorporate it (if it is canon) or go a compleatly different route (if it is not; i.e., other fan fiction).

Thank you in advance for your aid in this monumental task. May the Lidless Eye look not unkindly upon you (but then, what are the chances of that, right?) Heh heh.

http://www.geocities.com/mouth_of_sauron/ </a> </img>
I am the Lieutenant of <a href=http://pub28.ezboard.com/blugburz>Lugburz</a>, a member of the <a href=http://www.tolkienboards.cjb.net/>Tolkien EZBoard Network</a>. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000277>The Black Lieutenant</A> at: 11/8/00 8:18:33 am

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 188

Don't think MoS is mentioned elsewhere. As for the Black Numenoreans, they are touched here and there in Akallabeth an in Unfinished Tales, but there is not so much to recall thus, without looking through my books.

[The Black Lieutenant]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 10</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/mouth_of_sauron/sauron.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

It is as I feared. With so little to go on, I will have to rely largely on my imagination, which of course is poor compared to Tolkien's. If only the Shadow had interested him as much as the Free Peoples. We evil folk have only shreds and patches, and it is harder to build a story around such little information than it is to invent a story whole cloth.

http://www.geocities.com/mouth_of_sauron/ </a> </img>
I am the Lieutenant of <a href=http://pub28.ezboard.com/blugburz>Lugburz</a>, a member of the <a href=http://www.tolkienboards.cjb.net/>Tolkien EZBoard Network</a>. </p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 323</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

I think that the most info on Black Numenoreans is in the Sil. with perhaps a bit in LoTR Appendices. Absent &quot;canonical&quot; info, you're free to express yourself (you could even if there were &quot;canonical&quot; info because we all know that canon is in the eye of the beholder <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b"> ).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan </A> at: 11/8/00 11:04:31 pm

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 241</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Man who fotgot his name

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by The Black Lieutenant
If you could, please elaborate on the two candidates you mentioned for being possible true identities of MoS, and why you think they are candidates. Also include references to specific books wherein I might read more about them.<hr></blockquote>

Taken from my post earlier in the thread:
&quot;I speculated on another board that Herumor might be a candidate for the Mouths identity. It would prolly be like more apt to be Fuinur tho. Herumor was a nice idea to tie in with the NEW SHADOW, but Fuinur is the more likely choice in all reality of named and important Black Numenoreans. The name Herumor is known in the Fourth Age, so it doesn't get as high marks as Fuinur. Both these are high ranking Black Numenoreans in the service of Sauron in the Second Age and are nearly equal in choice for the Mouths original name&quot;.

You have asked for elaboration;
As speculated from text on when the Mouth entered service, conditions that must be met to remain within text, and other factors, two names come forward: Herumor and Fuinur.
I mentioned that initially Herumor is the more pleasing choice (the recurring villian to the House of Telcontar ala Sauron), however it doesn't fit with the text. Since the Mouth has forgotten his name, it makes no sense textwise as to why it would suddenly re-appear as remembered in the 4th Age, which leaves Fuinur as the logical choice by text.
As for why these two names; please revisit the post earlier in the thread explaining the Mouths history.

As for source material for the names; they are in SILMARILLION; Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by The Black Lieutenant
Elsewhere it has been suggested that there were more than one Mouth of Sauron, and that was why he was rumoured to be of such great age.<hr></blockquote>
I know of no theory presented textwise that substantiates this in any way. It sounds COMPLETELY suspect as fanciful speculation based in no part on text in any book. Quite frankly; it sounds as though someone is grasping at spectral straws.

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 191

Saul, this:

which leaves Fuinur as the logical choice by text

takes us back to his (Mouth's) age, wich I can not admit to be more than 1.5 hundred years

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 250</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: just too old mouth

That is you opinion and you are welcome to it.
However; it does not fit with textual evidence presented.

</p>

[The Black Lieutenant]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 12</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/mouth_of_sauron/sauron.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: just too old mouth

Yes, the idea that there was more than one Mouth of Sauron is utter speculation. But in your opinion, is it a likely possibility?

http://www.geocities.com/mouth_of_sauron/ </a> </img>
I am the Lieutenant of <a href=http://pub28.ezboard.com/blugburz>Lugburz</a>, a member of the <a href=http://www.tolkienboards.cjb.net/>Tolkien EZBoard Network</a>. I am also the High Priest of <a href=http://www.crosswinds.net/~darkbanecircle/>Darkbane Circle</a>, an online coven.</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 252</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: just too old mouth

Are you asking if this is like 'The Emperor's Hand'?
(and probably the germ for this highly speculative idea in the first place)

A likely possibility?
Without it even REMOTELY associated with any form of text?

I'll be truly kind and simply say; No.

No offense.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1582</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: just too old mouth

I'd say 'no' too. I never heard of or considered the possibility of a second (or more) Mouth of Sauron. The fact that his length of service was specifically mentioned by JRRT has always pointed to the Mouth having served in his position for a very long time(an extrordinarily long time, else why mention it in the first place?) .

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 11/10/00 5:05:41 pm

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 200

Cause he was rare one to serve him out of his own will, not out of fright nor forced by the Ring


...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[The Black Lieutenant]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 15</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/mouth_of_sauron/sauron.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: just too old mouth

I have to weigh my words more carefully with you sticklers. I meant, is there any reason why it could not be so, aside from that single reference to his--er, my--length of service, for the purposes of a piece of fan fiction, for example. And I say aside from that reference, because Tolkien said it is told before he goes into that whole spiel about who the Mouth of Sauron was purported to be. Naturally, if there were more than one, because Mouth of Sauron was a title borne by successive heralds of the Dark Lord, those who passed the tales of his cruelty down through the years could easily believe that they were telling of a single long-lived individual. Obviously there is no evidence to support the theory, but is there any to refute it?

You mention &quot;The Emperor's Hand&quot;. What is that in reference to?

http://www.geocities.com/mouth_of_sauron/ </a> </img>
I am the Lieutenant of <a href=http://pub28.ezboard.com/blugburz>Lugburz</a>, a member of the <a href=http://www.tolkienboards.cjb.net/>Tolkien EZBoard Network</a>. I am also the High Priest of <a href=http://www.crosswinds.net/~darkbanecircle/>Darkbane Circle</a>, an online coven.</p>

[littlemanpoet]

Hey hey I've found a thread to bring back from the (really)dead. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Anyway, I was intrigued while reading about Faramir's gift of the walking staves to Sam and Frodo when they left Henneth Annun. He says,

I have no fitting gifts to give you at our parting...but take these staves. They may be of service to those who walk or climb in the wild. The men of the White Mountains use them; though these have been cut down to your height and newly shod. They are made of the fair tree lebethron, beloved of the woodwrights of Gondor,k and a virtue has been set upon them of finding and returning. May that virtue not wholly fail under the Shadow into which you go!

Okay. Here's the thing. It has been argued by some that the Edain/Atani -that is, humans, do not have magical ability of any kind, at least not of GOOD magic. But here, Faramir talks about a virtue of wooden staves. Now, is the virtue in the lebethron, or is it in what human woodwrights have done to the wood? Still, how is it the woodwrights even KNOW about this virtue in the wood? The upshot is that clearly Tolkien's humans DID have magical ability of some sort. My guess is, that since Tolkien's world was basically ours in a long forgotten past, whatever magic humans may be fantasized (or believed) to have now, they had then. Right?

I decided to bring this particular thread back up because some of the previous posts on it seem to kinda inform this topic. Such as Melkorian "virtue(?)" in all things of Arda.

As to the interesting topic of whether the Mouth of Sauron was thousands of years old or just over one hundred, I don't have much to add except that weren't black numenoreans still around in Umbar even by the end of the Third Age?

As to the whole semantic debate regarding wizard versus sorcerer, I think it useful to remember that Tolkien was translating from the common tongue, and recorded for us "wizard" as being a complimentary term, of Nordic origin, compared to "sorcerer/ess" being a pejorative term, of Latinate origin. It seems Tolkien pretty much saved his latinates for evil.

So, what about human magic?

[littlemanpoet]

I'm bringing this thread back up because the recent new topic, "The Magic of the Races," is related to this one. Any of you who have read that one, I expect you will find this one imformative, too.

[HerenIstarion]

Melkorian "taint" rather [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[littlemanpoet]

Yeah, taint. But if you read Faramir's quote, it seems the "virtue" of finding and returning was added AFTER the staves were made. Thus, human magic. Numenorean as per descended from Elves, mayhap?

[Nar]

There was elvish blood in Imrahil, and perhaps something of a tradition of elvish lore left over in the people of Dol Amroth. Finduilas, Faramir's mother was from Dol Amroth, and probably brought some of her household with her. They might have taught Faramir some elvish lore even after he lost his mother. Also, I imagine men of Dol Amroth, particularly those with elvish influence or heritage, would have made excellent scouts and been resistant to shadow, therefore very likely to be selected by Faramir for his company in Ithilien, along with those native to Ithilien. Any of them could be a source for that reference.

Did the staffs really have this virtue, or only hopefully? Weren't they lost in Mordor after all? There's probably a thread on this somewhere-- I'll have to go look. I think the virtue probably consisted of some hopeful elvish words said over them or carved into them, rather than the sort of magic that alters events. Faramir would hope it would work, but I doubt he'd be sure. Another possibility is that the staffs were minor heirlooms originally made by elves or dwarves who knew how to imbue magic into things, like Merry's horn.

[lindil]

I will throw in a few points here in honor of raising Saulotus/bobwehadbabyanditsaboy back to the dead.

1> in the letters [mentioned by saulotus above] JRRT toyed w/ the idea of the race of man being 'non-magical' he realized that while philosophically he might like it, it would be copmpletely impossible to eliminate w/ out major contradictions.

So men, esp. the dunedain had access to magic in a way that seems significantly more limited than the Elves.

2>the word'VIRTUE' in chinese and greek [during the early Christian era at least] meant something on the order of energy/being.
As in the gospels where Christ looks around the crowd to see who touched him because he noticed 'virtue' [gr. energia] going out of Him.

So there are in M-E [ and real life] spells where you cause something to happen based all or partially on outside forces.
and there is also one's inherent being or energy which can be [ through being taught or a natural ability]transmitted and shaped if you will into a certain 'virtue' . W/ the staffs it was 'returning' or somesuch.

The lembas clearly had elven 'virtue' again energy or being woven into the material ingredients. Dunedain could have made them w/ the right 'corn' and other ingredients, and if they had had the magical training, could have imparted something of their virtue, it just would not have been as grat as a high-elf's [ or a member of galadriel's women's group].

So as for the staff in question, there seemed to be a group of dunedain in Gondor who learned or developed a 'magical walking staff'craft. It probably was not as Faramir admits very potent, esp compared to the gear frodo and sam were already toting around, but such as it was Farmir offered it.

Back to the mouth of sauron question, Elros and the mouth are apples and oranges.
Elros was granted a gift by the valar/Eru.
The mouth was grasping to hold onto life and power and literally sold his soul to Sauron/Morgoth to do it. Sauron saw him as a useful servant and most likely accomadated him. As to why the wringwraiths were wraiths and the mouth was not after so many years of work for Sauron, the answer is simple - the rings. And maybe the mouth had a 'lesser essay of the craft' regardless, JRRT tells us the mouth was very old and 70 years does not cut it for a known black numenorean, even if Burrahobbit, one can find tales of poor memory even close at hand .

So we are really left w/ a 2nd age black numenorean still alive, through undoubtedly nefarious if obscure means.

Boy - it was nice to look back into the downs past. There used to be so many threads of that quality that there was no time for me to read them all [or so it seemed [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]].
Of course I can't keep up w/ all of the [imo] good threads now either so...

I have returned, O learned spirits of the mounds of Tyrn Gorthad, to pick your spectral brains once again. Since I last posted here (as The Black Lieutenant) I have done some research on Middle-earth history and I have some questions for you.

I read on another site a theory similar to that mentioned above, that my namesake may have perhaps been given one of the dwarven rings which the Dark Lord had recovered. This could explain why he was so ancient, assuming these rings had the power to extend life, but for one problem. The rings were forged between the years of 1500 and 1600 of the Second Age, and the first appearance of the Nazgul was in S. A. 2250. That leaves at the most only 650 years to turn all nine mortal Men into the Ringwraiths. If MoS had borne a ring for more than 3,000 years how do we account for his not becoming a wraith in all that time, if it took less than 650 to happen to the Nine?

The only explanation I can come up with is that the Nine had used their rings a lot more often than the Mouth of Sauron used his. After all, they didn't know what would happen to them, whereas MoS could not have been unaware of how the Nazgul came to be what they were. Since he was so cunning and well-versed in the black arts, the Mouth of Sauron may have realized that the less he used his ring the longer he could resist becoming a wraith. Thus he may have kept it close without wearing it, using it only when his need was great, much like Gollum. What are your opinions regarding this theory?

Also, I have yet to read THE NEW SHADOW, but I think it's an interesting idea that the Herumor of the past was MoS, and that he and the Herumor of the Fourth Age may have been one and the same. In truth the forgetting of his name does not pose so much of a problem to my mind. As I suggested before, he may not have literally forgotten it, or he may have simply recalled it again after Sauron's defeat.

The bigger problem would once again be the extreme age of the sorcerer. Could Herumor, alone of all his people, have achieved what so many of the Numenoreans had desired? Was whatever sorcery he may have learned from Sauron in and of itself sufficient to prolong his life to such a degree, even after the Dark Lord's demise? And if MoS was indeed a Ringbearer, wouldn't the destruction of the One have made whatever ring he possessed useless, or am I getting confused by some non-canonical source, such as the movies?Assuming I am correct, if he was over 3,000 years old by T. A. 3019, would not the loss of his ring's power have immediately resulted in his turning to dust? Or would he simply have begun to age normally again, as if he were still the same age he had been when Sauron had first given him the ring?

[ February 01, 2003: Message edited by: Mouth of Sauron ]

[littlemanpoet]

Greetings and well met, Mouth of Sauron (in spite of myself [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). Thanks for a most erudite and informed post. I was not aware of the theory that MoS wore a Dwarf Ring. From whence does this theory arise? What evidence is there to support it? Please accept my apologies if the evidence is already supplied on this thread, I haven't looked for it; and please point it out to me and I'll read it. Lacking such evidence, it seems to me that a Ring is not essential in Middle Earth for Sauron or Morgoth to give MoS his extended life. Sorceric power would be enough without Rings, which are but one form of contained power.

Thank you for responding. If you are correct (and I know of no reason why you wouldn't be) then that would seem to solve the problem of why MoS did not become a wraith. This must have been the "evil knowledge" the Black Numenoreans sought from Sauron. And perhaps MoS was not the only Black Numenorean to have lived so long, but merely the only one we hear about.

Anyway, here is a link to the page where someone suggested the Dwarf-Ring theory:

The Third Realm In Exile

Just scroll down to the passage headed "The last of the Black Numenoreans".

There is no evidence to support this theory, it is once again just a futile exercise of "grasping at straws".

Oh, and I didn't like the reason they gave for MoS not becoming a wraith, hence my own theory as posted above differs somewhat from theirs, though the idea that he bore a Dwarven Ring and that he was kind of like Gollum comes from them.

I actually prefer the idea that a ring was not required, I just wasn't sure it was possible for him to live that long without one. But now that you mention it, it makes sense that the same power that was concentrated in the rings could be used without the medium of such a device. But was Sauron still so powerful, even after using much of his sorcerous might to empower the One?

[ February 02, 2003: Message edited by: Mouth of Sauron ]

When I originally came here with questions about the Mouth of Sauron character it was with the intention of writing a work of fan fiction about him, but in the end that proved too difficult (I may tackle this in the future, however). So instead I have written an article about him which deals with the various theories about his age and origins. As promised, I have linked back to this topic (and another one I referenced here at the Downs) at the end of the article. I would really appreciate your comments and/or criticisms, especially if you spot any errors since some of my sources were other webpages and I haven't verified their accuracy yet. Here is the link to the article in question:

The Mouth of Sauron

Thank you for all your help.

[ 12:57 PM November 27, 2003: Message edited by: Mouth of Sauron ]

[HerenIstarion]

Hola, Lieutenant, nice to see you again

[HerenIstarion]

I'm bringing thsi up for the sake of questions posed in Evil Things thread

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Gee, apart from the very old mouth of Sauron (who is so old that he not just forget his own age, but also forgot that Sauron disliked being called Sauron)... This thread has not concerned much about 'Magic' in general.

But here's something that I remembered reading:

On this occation the presents were unusually good. The hobbit-children were so excited that for a while they almost forgot about eating. There were toys the like of which they had never seen before, all beautiful and some obviously magical. Many of them had indeed been ordered a year before, and had come all the way from the Mountain and from Dale, and were of real dwarf-make.

It had been generally agreed in this thread that Magic is attributed to 'Preservation' and 'Dominance'. But isn't it much more practical to associate magic with things that are extraordinary... That is do not happen once, say, every 3000 years? Because if you look on the First Age or the Second Age, practically everything ranging from Elves transforming into bats and birds, to swords talking had occured.

Magic means differently to different people. To Sam or any everyday hobbit, it is something fanciful. i.e. Gandalf's fireworks, Elf-magic. To Theoden, it is something menacing or extraordinary. e.g. the appearance of Gandalf with walking trees. The Numenoreans learned many of their crafts from the Elves who visited from time to time to the island of Numenor, and yet by the Third Age, they have detoriated into a people fearing of the super-natural.

No, magic is a word that is overused in today's world. Personally, I should not even say that Wizards and Sorcerors wield black or white magic. Anything that is corporeal should be given that credit while anything that is illusional will not endure.

[Maerbenn]

Some questions arising from this thread (mainly its first post):

Does all magic (or the 'power' needed for it) in Middle-earth (or even Eä) derive from the Melkorian element in matter? In other words, does every magic user tap only into Melkor's power? Does no one use his/her own power?

What is it that determines how powerful someone or someone's magic is? Is it how 'well' the person is able to manipulate the Melkorian element, which is something that has to be learnt from 'lore'? Is the person's will(-power) also a factor?

What is it that determines the type of magic or spells a particular race or person wields? Is it simply inclination, need etc. or is there something that prevents learning/using other types?

I know that Saulotus is long gone, but perhaps we others would be able to answer these questions together, or at least discuss them.

[Raynor]

Does all magic (or the 'power' needed for it) in Middle-earth (or even Eä) derive from the Melkorian element in matter?

To me, the passage in question:

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, ii, Myths Transformed, HoME X

It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)

is explained by a previous referrence (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, ii, Myths Transformed, HoME X

Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings

Melkor was given power, more than any other of the ainur; he spent much/most of it to infest Arda, in order to subdue the Children of Eru to his will. It is this power that Sauron uses. There is, however, another power at play:

Originally Posted by Valaquenta, Silmarillion

Therefore Iluvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Ea.

Originally Posted by Myths Transformed, II

...it is said that whereas there is now great evil in Arda and many things therein are at discord, so that the good of one seemeth to be the hurt of another, nonetheless the foundations of this world are good, and it turns by nature to good, healing itself from within by the power that was set there in its making

Originally Posted by Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Note 10

'Matter' is not regarded as evil or opposed to 'Spirit'. Matter was wholly good in origin. It remained a 'creature of Eru' and still largely good, and indeed self-healing, when not interfered with: that is, when the latent evil intruded by Melkor was not deliberately roused and used by evil minds.

While the bad guys can resort to the taint of Melkor to do their magic, there is good deal of another power that is always at play - and that comes from Eru (or more directly so).

What is it that determines how powerful someone or someone's magic is?

Letter #155, referred to previously, states that magic cannot be learned, so according to this all magic power is received at birth (or through a direct intervention of the powers - see Gandalf & the numenoreans).

[Maerbenn]

Originally Posted by Raynor

While the bad guys can resort to the taint of Melkor to do their magic, there is good deal of another power that is always at play - and that comes from Eru (or more directly so).

So you do not agree with Saulotus’ speculation that even Gandalf used the Melkorian element (within his body) when practising magic? Is it only the ‘bad’ guys who use it? If so, do the ‘good’ guys use only power directly from Ilúvatar? Does no one use their ‘own’ power?

Originally Posted by Raynor

Letter #155, referred to previously, states that magic cannot be learned, so according to this all magic power is received at birth (or through a direct intervention of the powers - see Gandalf & the numenoreans).

So you do not agree with Saulotus’ opinion that Tolkien noticed that there were problems with this ‘solution’ and decided that magic has to work in some other way, and therefore did not include this portion in the letter actually sent (published as letter #154)?

[Raynor]

So you do not agree with Saulotus’ speculation that even Gandalf used the Melkorian element (within his body) when practising magic?

No, I don't. If it were so, the istari would have fallen the moment they started practicing magic outside Valinor; as such, it took centuries (for at least one of them) to fall to the dark side. To use Melkor's power is to fall to his influence.

Is it only the ‘bad’ guys who use it?

Willingly - yes. Some ignorant users might resort to it also.

If so, do the ‘good’ guys use only power directly from Ilúvatar?

Yes, by and large. If Gandalf imbued his staff with magic, he would be using "his" magic; however, the staff is imbued with Melkor's influence, so that comes into play too, to whatever small degree, indirectly and unwanted.

Does no one use their ‘own’ power?

It depends on what that represents; own (innate) power is very much Iluvatar's.

So you do not agree with Saulotus’ opinion that Tolkien noticed that there were problems with this ‘solution’ and decided that magic has to work in some other way, and therefore did not include this portion in the letter actually sent (published as letter #154)?

If I remember correctly, the problem with Mannish magic was related to the swords - however, those swords would have been made by numenoreans - some of them had the blood of Luthien, who could give them some magic power (as with Aragorn). What exactly did the normal Middle-Earth Men create or use, that would resemble magic? Nothing, as far as I know.

[Maerbenn]

Originally Posted by Raynor

To use Melkor's power is to fall to his influence.

Is that certain? How do you come to that conclusion?

Originally Posted by Raynor

If I remember correctly, the problem with Mannish magic was related to the swords - however, those swords would have been made by numenoreans - some of them had the blood of Luthien, who could give them some magic power (as with Aragorn).

So all Númenórean ‘magic’ was done by members of the Line of Elros? I suppose that idea could work, barely.

I suspect that Tolkien (in the note 'But the Númenóreans used "spells" in making swords?' referring to the statement that ‘it [magic] is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such’) by ‘spells’ meant something ‘learnt’. What Gandalf tells the Fellowship about spells in ‘A Journey in the Dark’ outside the West-door of Moria indicates that. Of course, it is most probably not enough to simply memorize spells to be able to use them, you have to have access to ‘power’ too.

Originally Posted by Raynor

What exactly did the normal Middle-Earth Men create or use, that would resemble magic? Nothing, as far as I know.

Well, we have Beorn and his skin-changing. And the Drúedain are also interesting; they have no Númenórean blood but according to ‘The Drúedain’ in Unfinished Tales they ‘had, or were credited with, strange or magical powers’.

[Raynor]

How do you come to that conclusion?

Melkor used his power and spread it through the matter of Arda in order to subdue and corrupt; his whole being and deeds were bent to that purpose. I doubt that this power can be directly used for good. This power continuously erodes even the mighty hroa of the elves, which were supposed to endure until the end of the world. My argument is that even if the melkorian element isn't strong enough to corrupt physically/directly, the moral choice of using it, per se, denotes corruption. I believe that using it is perpetuating it; we could argue along the lines of Gandalf purifying this, but that would mean returning Melkor's power to its original status, which is another situation altogether. The finnishing passage of the Silmarillion might be telling:

Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

Even words, information, which come from Melkor perpetuate his work of corruption; I would say, even more so, his lasting influence in the matter of Arda.

So all Númenórean ‘magic’ was done by members of the Line of Elros? I suppose that idea could work, barely.

We should also keep in mind that Eonwe gave to all the race of the numenoreans "wisdom and power and life"; I think it is safe to say that if the Numenoreans were able to do magic, this is a good source of it.

Well, we have Beorn and his skin-changing. And the Drúedain are also interesting; they have no Númenórean blood but according to ‘The Drúedain’ in Unfinished Tales they ‘had, or were credited with, strange or magical powers’.

Well, I would first notice that not of these examples refer to normal Men. Beorn might be an exception a la Tom Bombadil (I don't think his abilities were inherited by his descendants, I will have to check on that). The story of the statues from UT is really intriguing; do they necessarily point to magic? I wouldn't say so. I would also note that the druedain were eligible for becoming numenoreans too; perhaps, a gift of power was expressly given to them too - or maybe simply their moral choice elevated them (we know that at least the contrary is true - wrong moral choices diminishing one's status).