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09-07-2022, 09:47 AM | #41 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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As for the undressing... I was not really paying attention to who was undressing whom, I was too shocked by the entire scene itself... but now that you mention it, doesn't it sort of (and didn't it sort of visually) resemble some, say, Egyptian practices, you know, servants are putting the pharaoh into the tomb...? I mean obviously otherwise the undressing was there so that "you are going into Undying Lands, you are leaving your armour and war-equipment behind, this is the peaceful land"; but it is true that it looked sorta creepy.
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09-07-2022, 10:41 AM | #42 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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"Of their original home the Hobbits in Bilbo’s time preserved no knowledge. A love of learning (other than genealogical lore) was far from general among them, but there remained still a few in the older families who studied their own books, and even gathered reports of old times and distant lands from Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Their own records began only after the settlement of the Shire, and their most ancient legends hardly looked further back than their Wandering Days." LotR, Prologue Hobbits were illiterate until ca. TA 1300: "It was soon after their learning of letters, about Third Age 1300, that Hobbits began to set down and collect the considerable store of tales and legends and oral annals and genealogies that they already possessed." PoMe, Appendix on Languages
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Tar-Elenion Last edited by Tar Elenion; 09-07-2022 at 11:52 AM. |
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09-07-2022, 12:32 PM | #43 | |||
Wight of the Old Forest
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI Last edited by Pitchwife; 09-07-2022 at 12:50 PM. Reason: consolidating multiple posts |
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09-07-2022, 01:13 PM | #44 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Particularly when I was replying to a statement about how it showed they were "READING and PAYING ATTENTION to the original", i.e. Tolkien, and I supplied what Tolkien said, showing they were not reading and paying attention.
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09-07-2022, 01:28 PM | #45 | |
A Mere Boggart
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This doesn't mean it's *wrong*, it's just not in any way as I'd imagine it, and like they were taken by something rather than quietly disappearing. Interesting contrast though to how the Barrow-wights were prepared as dead Men for their own final journey, with their weapons accompanying them.
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09-07-2022, 01:42 PM | #46 | |
Cryptic Aura
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Apparently most of the actors are trying to disguise their Australian accents. I suppose a voice coach cost too much given the limited budget. I thought it was a Rapture myself. EDIT: Please note my question is rhetorical for Form's sake about the use of the maps, which foreshadows events. *rolls eyes* Thank you.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 09-07-2022 at 03:10 PM. |
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09-07-2022, 01:56 PM | #47 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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The the area where the southlanders dwell and the watch tower is in *Mordor (per maps leaked before the show). The map in the show labels southlands immediately east of *Mordor.
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09-07-2022, 03:17 PM | #48 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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Going back to a minor point for a moment.
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1. Sauron goes into combat with Gil-galad and Elendil. 2. Gil-galad and Elendil both perish, but Sauron is overthrown in the contest as well. 3. Isildur cuts the ring from Sauron's hand. 4. Elrond and Cirdan were the only others present and counseled Isildur to destroy the ring 5. Isildur claims the Ring as weregild for the death of his father and brother. Quote:
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09-07-2022, 03:42 PM | #49 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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But I anyway have to say that I like it. It preserves some of the feel, if not the canon (which is already not preserved by the names, see above). Quote:
But I personally also imagine it rather silver than golden. Maybe the showmakers have some obsession with gold as opposed to silver. First Gil-Galad, who too was supposed to "shine" with the light of "stars" and "silver shield"; now this... Nice spotting the thing about the Barrow-Wights though! I actually like that marked difference between the Men (notably "evil" Men) and the Elves (notably "good" Elves)... I personally imagine herald as being the guy who stands next to Gil-Galad with a trumpet and announces "Lord of the Black Land! Hear us! Gil-Galad, the First (and Only) of His Name, King of the Noldor and the Free Realms, now challenges you to a duel! Come forth if you do not wish to be seen as rotten coward!"
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories Last edited by Legate of Amon Lanc; 09-07-2022 at 03:53 PM. |
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09-07-2022, 03:45 PM | #50 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Elrond was in the War of Wrath:
"Thereupon Elrond paused a while and sighed. ‘I remember well the splendour of their banners,’ he said. ‘It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.’" LotR, Council of Elrond Led armies in the War of Elves and Sauron: "When news of this reached Gil-galad he sent out a force under Elrond Half-elven; but Elrond had far to go, and Sauron turned north and made at once for Eregion." "But his force was weakened by the necessity of leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear." "The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gilgalad, and utterly destroyed." UT, History of G&C (along with the participation in the Last Alliance) This seems to establish Elrond as a warrior and war-leader in the First and Second Ages. In Third Age draft materials Tolkien also indicated Elrond took part in the Angmar wars, but replaced him with Glorfindel. In my opinion, Elrond as a healer is being established in the Third Age. Hence abstaining from war, as do elven-healers (though male healers will go to war at last need). Elf-women abstain from war and this abstention gives them great virtue in healing (though elven-women will fight in desperate defence, much as Galadriel did at the First Kinslaying).
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Tar-Elenion Last edited by Tar Elenion; 09-07-2022 at 03:55 PM. |
09-07-2022, 03:49 PM | #51 | ||
Wight of the Old Forest
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI Last edited by Pitchwife; 09-07-2022 at 03:51 PM. Reason: x-ed with Legate and Tar-Elenion |
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09-07-2022, 04:02 PM | #52 | ||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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09-07-2022, 04:06 PM | #53 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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Edit: Cross-post with Tar-Elenion Anyway, apologies for the little detour. Back to business as usual. Prediction for Episode 3: Galadriel and Halbrand meet Elendil on a boat.
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Last edited by Boromir88; 09-07-2022 at 04:27 PM. |
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09-07-2022, 11:18 PM | #54 | |
Drummer in the Deep
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Time is a flat circle, it goes round and round and round and round and round and roun
Well here we are again! I have kept my expectations fairly low for the show and will try to keep them so (so you know). Overall I enjoyed the first couple of episodes and I think this will be a show that I enjoy once and never need to see again.
I don't find myself wanting to watch the LotR or Hobbit movies ever again either except in good company, because good company and good memories have been the most enduring thing I got out of them. I hope to get at least one of those out of this show. Memory is not what the heart desires, be it as clear as Kheled-Zaram...... yeah yeah ok. I do like the Harfoot scenes the best so far - Nori is very Tookish, and Poppy (who might have shrek ears in her hair?) seems to be written as the next Samwise. Which to my mind is ok because we need more Samwises. A few folks here have mentioned how jarring it is that Galadriel looks younger than Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, etc. but I like to think it's because she has seen the two trees. Galadriel and the guy on the raft.......who I will dub Raftwurst because otherwise I would have to look up his real name - has been the most cringeworthy thing thus far. And not just because the first fanfic I ever wrote as a child was about two disney characters stuck on a raft on the open sea. Ahem. It's the circle of life. It's also calling on emotions for characters who haven't inspired them yet. The sailing to Valinor scene did seem pretty creepy, I bet it will be even more so when Ar-Pharason tries to sail it. I look forward to seeing more of Celebrimbor, I share B88 and Legate's appreciation for a "mad scientist" type. Charles Edwards (and Trystan Gravelle who will be Ar-Pharazon]) was in "The Terror" which is one of my favorite tv shows, I didn't recognize him until he started talking. I'll forgive him for being a bit too aged (maybe he's just been standing over too many forges). I'm already kind of sad for Celebrimbor's bloody end but I think that will be cool to see. I hope we get to see a lot of the things he makes. I think that Legate is right about Theodwurst (thanks Pitchwife) = becoming the Witch King of Angmar It would also be pretty cool if that area were to become Mordor / Nurn. I don't think we've seen the ancestor(s) of Eorl the Young yet. Quote:
Well it's a bit too imposing to be wielded at Knifey Kniforath, that's for sure!
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09-08-2022, 03:04 AM | #55 |
A Mere Boggart
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Heralds were and still are prominent roles in British (mostly English and Scots) society. It's a formal role now, and does take the shape of stepping up in a fancy surcoat and announcing VIPs in a pompous manner - "William, fifth of his name, master of helicopters, etcetera".
But heralds were also go betweens or a type of diplomat, carrying out important negotiations on behalf of king or lord. Compared in modern terms they might be a type of civil service permanent secretary, authorised to speak and lead on an issue and represent the 'authority'. There may have been an expectation too to understand heraldry and the extremely complex visual language of shields and emblems, exactly what a scroll might mean when added to a banner, or the power relationships indicated by the quartering on a shield. That makes perfect sense if you are also a type of diplomat - it's important to know that Lord Long is second cousin to Lord Short, and his wife is another of Lord Shirt's cousins on his mother's side etc. They weren't divested with the ability to change arms* - that was and is the Earl Marshall's role. Heralds weren't really warriors, but they may be involved in armoury as part of a household, and they may have been involved in battle, certainly they'd have to be able to handle themselves even if not part of the ranks. Book Elrond is definitely keen on banners, so... One of the aspects of the new series I am keen to see develop. Obvious already that Elrond has had a role negotiating with the dwarves. * Important to note that 'arms' means either weapons or visual representations of bloodline/connection/honour.
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09-08-2022, 03:35 AM | #56 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Regarding the area the series is calling the Southlands, from what I vaguely recall of the map is as Tar Elenion was directly east of Mordor. So, it looks to be where Gondor would later be established.
I've got no problems with this depiction as I would say it could be from the Elvish perspective of being south of Lindon/Eregion. Boromir is introduced by Elrond as: Quote:
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09-08-2022, 06:42 AM | #57 | ||||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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But in that case I sort of pity that this show is not Game of Thrones after all. You know, generally I despise graphic violence, but the idea of Ar-Pharazon being chopped in half by the curtain... then the gold turns red... okay, okay, let's save it for some tasteless horror flick. Quote:
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That's why I, incidentally, think that they missed the boat with not giving Galadriel the agenda of building her own kingdom - or should I rather say keeping that agenda, as it were. It would have given her a more proactive focus that then Sauron would throw a wrench into. The same Gil-Galad. The whole problem of the Second Age Elves - AND Men - was that they were proactive, and Sauron simply turned it against them. Maybe they should now do some turnover that now that the audience knows about the existing danger, Galadriel et al should get temporarily placated and lulled into a sense that against their better judgment everything is fine after all, and start going about their own agendas.) Ahem. That was quite an excurse. What I wanted to say was that I can imagine Elrond - and the show seems to start well in that direction - in his youth being the sort of geek into coats of arms and all such sorts of lore. I would have also loved to see him in the role of Gil-Galad's "fanboy" that would develop into the herald position. Quote:
Anyway, to me it seemed to me that the maps were generally vague, usually showing a fairly large area without clear borders, perhaps exactly in order to preserve the "ta-da!" effect of "...and this place became Mordor" (or Gondor, or what-have-you). And of course to reflect the reality of the time: Middle-Earth was, from all we know, in a sort of "Dark Ages", and there likely were not any bigger statelike bodies. Quote:
Specifically, I have always understood the immigrants into Bree not as being from Gondor (horribly far!), but simply from the "empty places" between Isen and Brandywine (Enedwaith, Minhiriath - the few folk that still survived there), at most Dunlanders (which would explain Saruman's spies et al). There was trouble and war not only in Gondor, but probably all sorts of bandits, Orcs, wolves, Dunlending raiders pushed from their lands by other raiders and so on, that would affect everybody. But this would be for another thread.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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09-08-2022, 07:38 AM | #58 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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I must have missed the *Celebrimbor mention re: age.
Celebrimbor was born in Aman, his mother refused to go into Exile and remained behind.
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Tar-Elenion Last edited by Tar Elenion; 09-08-2022 at 05:49 PM. |
09-08-2022, 03:41 PM | #59 | |
Laconic Loreman
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I do recall the Watchwarden telling Arondir that this land used to be wasteland before the Elves came, and now under their watch it's transformed into a luscious, green valley. That's why I wanted some more backstory between the Elves occupation of the Southlands. Why are the people that live here evil? Why are they happy (most of them) the Elves are gone? If the land has become rich and fertile for growing.
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09-11-2022, 09:55 AM | #60 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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I have watched the first three episodes now. I started out with a List of impressions, but then scrapped it, because there's no sense in belabouring and rehashing much of what has been said already. There were parts that I liked, there were parts that I didn't like, but for the most part I just found that it's dull. There is only one storyline in which I found myself even remotely invested, and that's the Harfeet. Like many others here, I discovered that they are quite enjoyable - I like their secretive ways and their costumes and mannerisms and peculiar expressions - wheels and carts and goats and all that. And, surprisingly, I don't mind too much in a detached sort of way what they are doing with the Stranger. But for the rest of the story - for the most part it is just so... forgettable. No, really. It's forgettable. If I never finish the show, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it. I purposefully pushed starting to watch it for a few episodes to be out so that I can watch straight to where the plot thickens, but in 3 episodes it's failed to make me invested in all but one storyline. I am left quite uncurious about what happens next, and utterly not invested in the majority of their characters. There are two reasons for watching the show at this point; one is inertia, the "one more episode" thing, but that doesn't work when it's just being released one episode at a time. The second - and hence only - reason is that this is probably going to be the talk on the Downs and the subject of many debates and deliberations and jokes and discussions of all sorts for months to come, and I'd probably watch it to keep abreast of the talk on the street, so to speak. Who knows, maybe it does get better over time - more believable characters, more thought-out plot - but so far I find myself trying my best to like it but finding myself unmoved by the overall effect.
I will post some more specific impressions on other corresponding threads, including the stuf I did like. But for now, since I have been forewarned to pay attention to certain questions, I can answer the geographic debate about Southlands. The first time that name appears on the map, it is distinctly EAST of Mordor. The second time it is shown, it's written all over the Gondor/Mordor area. My conclusion is that "Southlands" is literally just a broad term for the south of the ME map (but not as south as Harad).
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09-12-2022, 08:38 PM | #61 |
Guardian of the Blind
Join Date: Apr 2010
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You have summed up how I feel 100%. Next Friday Fate the Winx Saga season 2 comes out and that it what I'm excited for and will be watching. If I still feel like it, then I'll come back to RoP.
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09-15-2022, 06:00 AM | #62 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Having one "shieldmaiden" among about 300 male, warrior/fighter characters seems to fit the demographics/statistics. Everyone should have stopped there, instead of pushing the notion of backflipping sword gymnast, Galadriel.
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09-15-2022, 04:53 PM | #63 |
Cryptic Aura
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Huinsoron, out of all the discussions here about Galadrien, I thought this comparison would best suit your thread on the first episode. My thanks to the Downer formerly known as Lush for bringing the second image to my attention. And sorry for the sizes but with limited time for internet today I could not find smaller ones.
Galadriel with the elven helmets from RoP. And this painting by the Russian artist Vasily Vereshchagin, "The Apotheosis of War". The 19th C painting is famous for its alleged criticism of the Russian military; it and a second painting by Vereshchagin were not allowed in a Moscow exhibit. I leave comments to any who might wish to interpret the conjunction.
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