Rings of Power talk!

[Radtech51]

I know of many questions that were never specifically answered by J.R.R. Tolkien himself. I think in many ways he preferred to keep a lot a mystery like his famous character Tom Bombadil. I put together a list of nine questions that I thought were very interesting, I also I thought that we could explore the questions together. I’ve included my answer for each of the questions listed below but I would like to hear yours as well, please enjoy.

Some basic history first, (going from memory here).

In the beginning the elves created many rings (magic rings), the lesser rings were but essays in the craft until if was full-grown, they were of various sorts some more potent some less. To the Elven smiths they were but trifles (something of little importance or value), but to Gandolf's mind still to dangerous for mortals. The greater rings the rings of power were perilous, if a mortal kept one he would no longer age nor would he die but simply continue until at last every moment would be a constant weariness. And if he often used the ring to become invisible he would become invisible permanently and forever walk under the twilight shadow in the realm of the dark Lord.

Sauron the deceiver tricked and betrayed the Elven smiths so he could then learn the craft of ring making and in doing so later in secret forge the one master Ring, (The one Ring to Rule them All). 20 rings of power total were created 19 were created by the elves and one was created by Sauron, himself making the one master ring. As it goes, Nine for the mortal men doomed to die, seven for the dwarf lords in their halls of stone, three for the Elven king’s under the sky, and one for the dark Lord in his dark throne. In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.

As it is said when Sauron forged the one ring in secret he was revealed as a traitor and his true self was revealed. Sauron's ruling ring could not be kept as secret once it was created and thus Sauron was revealed as a traitor to the elves.

So what ended up happening to all 20 rings?
We know that the nine are accounted for, (Nazgul), the five were consumed by Dragons and the other two were captured by Sauron or destroyed. The remaining three were hidden form Sauron and have never been touched by him. Gandolf has one of them Narya is set with a red stone and is the element of fire. Galadriel's ring is known as Nenya set with a white stone and is the element of creation. Elrond's ring Vilya is set with a blue stone and is the element of air.

We also know that the three remaining rings of power are of a different type then the one ruling ring Sauron created, they can't be used in the same way to wage war or control others that was not their design. All 19 of the Greater Rings of power that the elves created were of the same craft but did very in function it would seem, it was never told specifically what each of the 19 greater rings could do but it was assumed that they had functions that were of good nature, learning etc. but most certainly not for evil use or by design like the one ring was. It wasn’t until Sauron later captured many of the greater rings that they were then turned to evil use. Sauron’s master ring was really the only one among the twenty that was specifically evil and was used as a weapon by design.

So now it comes to the questions, please feel free to debate and state your opinion about the rings and their uses, I’d very much like to here your opinions.

Why did Sauron not create more rings of power?

A: I suppose we may never know for sure if he ever attempted it during the war, at the very least he would have created a few of the lesser rings and designed them specifically for control over his servants, perhaps the one who called himself the mouth of Sauron was given such a ring? As for crafting more of the greater rings of power that feat would have proved more difficult especially since a large portion of his former power passed away from him when he lost the original ruling ring. However it is plausible to think that perhaps his control over the Nazgul or even his realm was diminishing over time without the one ruling ring back in his possession. Put more specifically his days in control over the Nazgul were numbered the moment he lost the one ring. This might also explain why he didn’t want to create any additional rings of power in fear that if he did so it would have further threatened his control over his realm without the one ring back in his possession first.

Why wasn’t Saruman the white giving one of the three greater rings of power originally since he was appointed to the task of learning about the craft?

A: So we know that it was Saruman’s task to learn everything he could about the rings of power, we also know that Saruman’s knowledge of the craft was very extensive. According to JRR Tolkien himself there existed a very real possibility of him finding the lost lore he needed and creating his own greater ring of power. So one might conclude that Saruman would have been the perfect choice to be chosen as one of the secret wielders of the three. My only conclusion is that the elves just didn’t trust Saruman but I’m sure he was still considered originally for the task. I’m also going to assume that the white council chose Saruman to be tasked with the responsibility of learning all about the rings and their lore and the decision had no bearing on him as a suitable wielder. One might also conclude that if by giving Saruman one of the remaining three greater rings of power it would have brought more attention to something they did not wish known. Saruman being the more powerful of the Wizards at the time just wasn’t the wiser choice.

Why is it none of the three greater rings of power never turned their wielders invisible even when they had them on?

A: Did Gandolf, Galadriel or Elrond ever even use there rings of power to become invisible?
Surely we know that all 20 greater rings of power had this ability, so I’m going to assume that every one of the wielders except for the Hobbits knew how to control this power. To become invisible came at a cost as we all know and I’m sure they didn’t want to pay the price for the ability.
We also know that Gandolf, Galadriel and Elrond always kept there ring of power on them and the rings were invisible to everyone but themselves or to another wielder with a great ring. For example Frodo was able to see Galadriel’s ring of power when Sam could not. It’s my belief that with training Frodo could have learned much about the ring and how to control it assuming he bent all his effort towards the task. However Galadriel warned him not to try in fear it would destroy him.


Why didn’t the ring wraiths ever use there rings to become invisible in the books?

A: They most surely had in the beginning which is why the ring wraiths now walk in the twilight land permanently and are almost all but invisible to anyone looking upon them directly. I’m also going to assume that they could have used there rings in the story to make themselves completely invisible but didn’t see the need to do it. Their eyesight was very poor and they needed there steeds as eyes. Also couldn’t make steeds become invisible anymore then Frodo could make his sword become invisible once he drew it from his sheath. However it would bring a potentially potent combat advantage to them if they were ever dismounted. I think the main reason none of them ever used the rings to become invisible during combat was due to over confidence.


What kind of power did the one master ruling ring that Sauron created really have?

A: In the books Galadriel said that the rings gave power according to one’s stature. We also know that at ring had the power of command and heightened one’s awareness, it also granted invisibility and exceptionally long life. With the one ring Sauron also created structures and fortresses so we know it also had the power of creation as well.

If I was to add to the list of powers I believe it would also grant the ability to call forth great army’s to it’s command and grant powerful control over them. I also believe the wielder could be granted great physical strength in combat and be given the power of domination over others most likely through fear.

What ever happened to all the lesser magic rings and might they have been also used in the war?

A: I’m going to assume for the most part they were all lost or destroyed, however I don’t think they would have been made for combat or destruction but more for learning and building. I think Sauron was the only one who ever warped the rings to do such evil things. I also think that Saruman must have had one of the lesser rings for his own or could have most certainly of made one for himself with this knowledge. Perhaps it was one such ring that gave him the gift he had over others with the use of his voice?

What exactly did Gandolf’s ring do? Was Narya the ring of fire?

Gandolf was known to be very talented and powerful when it came to the use of fire. Was it because of his spell knowledge as a Wizard? Or was it because of his use of the greater ring he wielded? When he fought the Balrog for example did the ring give him some kind of limited fire protection? Could his ring have ever been used as a weapon period? We know he stated before that the three were not crafted for such use but I can’t help but wonder. Did his ring grant him a better understanding of fire and of it’s control? Did it allow him to set things ablaze like he did on weather top when fighting off the Nasgul?
Upon reflection Gandolf did say he needed something to work with and couldn’t just create fire from nothing, so can we can assume the ring couldn’t do that? Or perhaps not, it’s quite possible that he was forbidden to ever use the ring in fear that it might bring attention to himself or reveal to Sauron where it could be found. And if Sauron captured Gandolf’s ring we know it would have been turned to evil use like he did with the Nasgul’s rings.

Could the one master ring have ever been used for good?

A: In the books they made this question rather clear, No. Put simply the one master ring was crafted by Sauron and a large portion of his power and former self was put into it’s making. It was made specifically for the sole purpose of gaining power by controlling others and any wielder who bent his will towards using it would have ended up like Sauron himself or as one of the Nasgul. To wield and use the ring you would have to become very similar to Sauron himself, you would end up dominating others and craving power. In order to use the ring to it’s full potential you would have to do these things or else the ring would utterly reject you, and if the ring knew you didn’t have the power in you to do these things it would just use you Intel it could work it’s way to another wielder. According to Gandolf a ring of power looks out for itself and no mortal could resist it’s control over you indefinitely, it would gain control over you in the end and it would ultimately dominate you. All the wise knew this and feared to touch it use it or even take it even to keep it safe due to that reason.

What ever happened to the King of the Nazgul’s ring when he was slain?

A: As for this question I’m not sure, I didn’t hear anything about it I’m going to assume it ended up on the battlefield covered with dirt and debris from the battle and remained there. Perhaps after the battle someone came by and pick it up not knowing what it was? Or perhaps Gandolf went and retrieved the ring himself and placed it somewhere safe temporarily? Ultimately the one Ring was destroyed so this ring would have lost it’s power, still it would’ve made a Great souvenir.

[Pervinca Took]

Something has just occurred to me: why didn't Saruman try to take Narya from Gandalf when he imprisoned him? Was he not aware that he had it? I know he was made jealous by someone's comment "Not as the last" (can't remember it exactly, but it was to the effect that Gandalf might in fact prove the greatest of the Istari, and Saruman heard it and resented it).

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Something has just occurred to me: why didn't Saruman try to take Narya from Gandalf when he imprisoned him? Was he not aware that he had it? I know he was made jealous by someone's comment "Not as the last" (can't remember it exactly, but it was to the effect that Gandalf might in fact prove the greatest of the Istari, and Saruman heard it and resented it).

That is a very good question, I'm going to assume he didn't know that Gandalf had the ring? The three rings of power were originally given to the elves and I don't know how Gandolf ended up with one of them but we can assume it's because the elves trusted Gandolf greatly and respected him more than any other. Anyway I'm very sure it had to be a kept a secret between the elves and himself only. I get the feeling that Gandolf never really trusted Saruman or approved of him ever becoming the leader of the white council, so it could have been that Gandolf himself told the elves not to entrust one of the greater rings to Saruman.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

That is a very good question, I'm going to assume he didn't know that Gandalf had the ring? The three rings of power were originally given to the elves and I don't know how Gandolf ended up with one of them but we can assume it's because the elves trusted Gandolf greatly and respected him more than any other. Anyway I'm very sure it had to be a kept a secret between the elves and himself only. I get the feeling that Gandolf never really trusted Saruman or approved of him ever becoming the leader of the white council, so it could have been that Gandolf himself told the elves not to entrust one of the greater rings to Saruman.

Gandalf's ring was originally given to Cirdan of the Grey Havens.

Originally Posted by Cirdan

'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I well dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I shall await thee.'

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by blantyr

Gandalf's ring was originally given to Cirdan of the Grey Havens.

Ah ok very good there seems to be sources of information that I have not yet acquainted myself with, so did Cirdan end up giving the ring to him and did it explain why?

[Pervinca Took]

For the reasons in Blantyr's second quote.

Maybe Saruman never knew Gandalf had the Third Ring, or maybe he thought it inconsequential, as the Three were not made to help the Bearers control others.

Did Tolkien ever call Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond Ringbearers? The first time I heard them referred to as such was in the BBC radio dramatisation - when Gandalf said "I too am a Ringbearer."

BTW, great first post, Radtech51!

[Legolas]

Gandalf's ring was not a magic fire-blasting wand-type weapon or anything; nor were any of the rings that we know of. The power of the Three is described by Elrond at the Council of Elrond:

'The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But there were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.'

And in Appendix B, Cirdan tells exactly why he gives Narya to Gandalf:

For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.

Gandalf put Narya to use for the exact mission he was sent: to rouse the good people of Middle-earth to action, to inspire and rally them together.

Saruman did eventually know that Gandalf had a ring. In the Istari chapter in Unfinished Tales:

"But Cirdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.

'For,' said he, 'great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task should prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage.'

And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.

As Pervinca Took alluded, tension was already present between Saruman (Curumo) and Gandalf (Olorin) from the moment they were chosen to sail to Middle-earth as emissaries. In the same chapter as above, there is essay about a meeting of the Valar where the wizards are comissioned; this detail is recorded:

Manwë replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-Earth. But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olorin (illegible words follow that seem to contain the word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.

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Originally Posted by Radtech51

So we know that it was Saruman’s task to learn everything he could about the rings of power, we also know that Saruman’s knowledge of the craft was very extensive. According to JRR Tolkien himself there existed a very real possibility of him finding the lost lore he needed and creating his own greater ring of power.

Knowledge of this ring craft wasn't specifically a 'task' assigned to Saruman, but rather it was a personal interest taken up by him in greed. Saruman would not have been in a great position to take Gandalf's ring, and he would have almost no use for it anyway. It might have even been risky.

Saruman, in his knowedge, would have know that the Three were never tainted, and accordingly did not submit to evil desires. His motivation was greed, thus Narya would've been useless to him. Gandalf tells Frodo as much in 'The Shadow of the Past':

He knows that it is not one of the Three, for they have not been lost, and they endure no evil.

Perhaps you might ask if he would want Narya simply to make sure Gandalf no longer had it. Though he did strand Gandalf atop Orthanc, there was no great fight (as the movie portrays...); to take Narya from Gandalf may have taken all of Saruman's strength, if indeed he could have beaten Gandalf at all. It was not worth it. At that point, Saruman's focus is to find the One Ring, which he suspects is abroad, and is the reason he confronts Gandalf to begin with. He knows time is of the essence, and suspects Gandalf knows where it is.

Even if he were to find a way to get Narya, Saruman's brash attitude suggests he probably wouldn't have kept ownership of it secret as the humble Gandalf did. Instead, he would have worn it proudly, drawing attention to himself. Sauron would've become aware of this, which wouldn't have been in Saruman's best interest.

It is worth noting that Saruman did manage to make his own ring, but it was apparently a failure. Hadn't worked out the kinks yet, I guess!
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Originally Posted by Radtech51

A: Did Gandalf, Galadriel or Elrond ever even use there rings of power to become invisible?
Surely we know that all 20 greater rings of power had this ability, so I’m going to assume that every one of the wielders except for the Hobbits knew how to control this power.

I've never read anything that suggests any of the rings aside from the One Ring had the ability to grant invisibility to its wearer. This is a trait unique to Sauron's ring.
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Originally Posted by Radtech51

Why didn’t the ring wraiths ever use there rings to become invisible in the books?

A: They most surely had in the beginning which is why the ring wraiths now walk in the twilight land permanently and are almost all but invisible to anyone looking upon them directly. I’m also going to assume that they could have used there rings in the story to make themselves completely invisible but didn’t see the need to do it.

In addition to the last question (the other rings didn't grant invisibility as far as I know), once dead, the Nine no longer wore their rings. Instead, Sauron kept them which is how he controlled their wills when he did not have the One Ring.

The Nine were present in the 'wraith-world' (what you call twilight) in death because they were mortals who wore the corrupted rings - not because of anything relating to invisibility. Though their bodies had died and faded because they were designed to be mortals, they were able to persist somewhat immortally through the corruption of the rings as long as the One Ring existed. Some other immortal beings have this trait (being present in the spiritual realm) as well.

We know at least High Elves could exist/were visible simultaneously in the physical realm and the spiritual realm. Gandalf explains to Frodo why he was able to see Glorfindel.

'And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'

'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'

'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.'

[Pervinca Took]

I've never read anything that suggests any of the rings aside from the One Ring had the ability to grant invisibility to its wearer. This is a trait unique to Sauron's ring.

Gandalf: "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Rings of Power, does not die, but neither does he grow or obtain more life ... and if he often uses it to become invisible, he fades; he becomes in the end permanently invisible ...."

I think they conferred invisibility, but to mortals only.

I think there was a discussion on the LOTR Plaza a while ago to the effect that the invisibility factor was possibly a mere by-product/unintended additional effect of the production of the rings, not a specific purpose in design.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Legolas

Gandalf's ring was not a magic fire-blasting wand-type weapon or anything; nor were any of the rings that we know of. The power of the Three is described by Elrond at the Council of Elrond:

And in Appendix B, Cirdan tells exactly why he gives Narya to Gandalf:

Gandalf put Narya to use for the exact mission he was sent: to rouse the good people of Middle-earth to action, to inspire and rally them together.

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Saruman did eventually know that Gandalf had a ring. In the Istari chapter in Unfinished Tales:



As Pervinca Took alluded, tension was already present between Saruman (Curumo) and Gandalf (Olorin) from the moment they were chosen to sail to Middle-earth as emissaries. In the same chapter as above, there is essay about a meeting of the Valar where the wizards are comissioned; this detail is recorded:

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Knowledge of this ring craft wasn't specifically a 'task' assigned to Saruman, but rather it was a personal interest taken up by him in greed. Saruman would not have been in a great position to take Gandalf's ring, and he would have almost no use for it anyway. It might have even been risky.

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Saruman, in his knowedge, would have know that the Three were never tainted, and accordingly did not submit to evil desires. His motivation was greed, thus Narya would've been useless to him. Gandalf tells Frodo as much in 'The Shadow of the Past':

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Perhaps you might ask if he would want Narya simply to make sure Gandalf no longer had it. Though he did strand Gandalf atop Orthanc, there was no great fight (as the movie portrays...); to take Narya from Gandalf may have taken all of Saruman's strength, if indeed he could have beaten Gandalf at all. It was not worth it. At that point, Saruman's focus is to find the One Ring, which he suspects is abroad, and is the reason he confronts Gandalf to begin with. He knows time is of the essence, and suspects Gandalf knows where it is.
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Even if he were to find a way to get Narya, Saruman's brash attitude suggests he probably wouldn't have kept ownership of it secret as the humble Gandalf did. Instead, he would have worn it proudly, drawing attention to himself. Sauron would've become aware of this, which wouldn't have been in Saruman's best interest.

It is worth noting that Saruman did manage to make his own ring, but it was apparently a failure. Hadn't worked out the kinks yet, I guess!
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I've never read anything that suggests any of the rings aside from the One Ring had the ability to grant invisibility to its wearer. This is a trait unique to Sauron's ring.
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I believe this would also explain the ability for each ring to become invisible on the wielders hand if they wished it. I might be wrong but this is the way I interpreted it, I never came across any document that I can recall that stated that the ability of invisibility was only granted to the one ring and not the others.
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In addition to the last question (the other rings didn't grant invisibility as far as I know), once dead, the Nine no longer wore their rings. Instead, Sauron kept them which is how he controlled their wills when he did not have the One Ring.

The Nine were present in the 'wraith-world' (what you call twilight) in death because they were mortals who wore the corrupted rings - not because of anything relating to invisibility. Though their bodies had died and faded because they were designed to be mortals, they were able to persist somewhat immortally through the corruption of the rings as long as the One Ring existed. Some other immortal beings have this trait (being present in the spiritual realm) as well.
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We know at least High Elves could exist/were visible simultaneously in the physical realm and the spiritual realm. Gandalf explains to Frodo why he was able to see Glorfindel.

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[Aragrax]

From Galadriel: "the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor".

So . . Lesser folk become invisible, while great power becomes even greater power.


Saruman was trying to convert Gandalf, so that may have factored into his not taking the ring. He might also have been unable to take it as the ring was a thing of true Art, and Saruman was a diminished thing by that time. We see how Gollum responded to elf-rope, and Narya was far, far greater in craft and "purity" or perhaps even "holiness", if one wants to give it a name.


Note that I always correlated Gandalf's skill with fireworks and the like with Narya. While it was a thing to kindle spirits, it likely granted understanding of fire in general, as well as "providing" a certain grey-cloaked wizard with a "firey" temper.

After all, each Istar had a focus, and Gandalf's was clearly languages and cultures, not fire. He was a philologist, really. Can't imagine why, of course. . .


As to why more rings were not made. .

1) they may not have been needed. Maybe there were 7 dwarf kings and 9 mortal kings of note, and that's all that was needed to hold sway.

2) Perhaps adding more rings would have made it harder for Sauron to maintain control over all of them (spreading him thin, as it were).

3) 3, 7, and 9 are magical numbers. There are few others in Western tradition, save 13, and JRRT would have had to come up w/a race for that batch.

4) On that last note: 3 is trinity (or rather, Trinity), which a Catholic would connect good images with; 7 is the number of deadly sins; and Dante had 9 RINGS of hell for men to lodge themselves in with their follies. This last bit (all of point 4) is speculation/IMO, but JRRT was a very devout Catholic, and such associations would have been lurking about his brain.