Denethor's plunge

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Quite right!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Oh please! The fiery leap made it 'more interesting for newcomers'? What kind of person would prefer to see something so ridiculous, in a film featuring a world one is trying to immerse oneself in? Why do we have to assume that all newcomers to The Lord of the Rings are fickle and desire lame action scenes over a decent story? A simple, horrifying shot of Denethor being consumed by flame, with the others watching aghast, would have been obviously better.

And the point about Boromir offers nothing: history is filled with thousands, nay, millions! of warriors who fight on, and kill, after suffering wounds. That scene wasn't unrealistic; the Denethor scene is, hopelessly so.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Why do we have to assume that all newcomers to The Lord of the Rings are fickle and desire lame action scenes over a decent story?

Those of you who read the books after seeing the movies: What did you think when you read that Denethor didn't take the plunge? Were you disappointed, or did you find the 'real' story more interesting?

I can't see a reason for having Denethor 'burning to fly,' and could think of better ways, filmatically, for him to die. Was it simply to get rid of another place for a memorial ("This black ring on the floor are the remains of Denethor II...please watch your step.")?

PJ does seem to have a thing for persons falling...cough...Gollum, Aragorn, Saruman...cough

Just which Valar IS the Lord of Gravity?

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by alatar

PJ does seem to have a thing for persons falling...cough...Gollum, Aragorn, Saruman...cough

Just which Valar IS the Lord of Gravity?

You forgot Frodo in Mount Doom, and Sam at the Black Gate, though these two weren't quite as dramatic.

On a whole, I was very dissapointed with Denethor. In the book, the first time I read it, I almost cried at Denethor's death. He is noble. It always bothered me that he was to much of a coward to face death in the movie. However bad he was, no one could call him a coward.

Just which Valar IS the Lord of Gravity?

LOL!

We will just have to invent one.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by alatar

Those of you who read the books after seeing the movies: What did you think when you read that Denethor didn't take the plunge? Were you disappointed, or did you find the 'real' story more interesting?

I can't see a reason for having Denethor 'burning to fly,' and could think of better ways, filmatically, for him to die. Was it simply to get rid of another place for a memorial ("This black ring on the floor are the remains of Denethor II...please watch your step.")?

PJ does seem to have a thing for persons falling...cough...Gollum, Aragorn, Saruman...cough

Just which Valar IS the Lord of Gravity?

Well after I read this post I was really ****ed at PJ for putting the falling sequence in there. But I think that the way Denethor dies in the book is more heroic in a way because he was not afraid to die and in the movie he just kind of started burning and was so incredibly scared that he ran and fell of the seventh level of Minis Tirith.

[alatar]

Rethinking the movies a bit, I now have yet another theory regarding Denethor's flaming plunge:

• Denethor was of Númenórean blood.
• The Nazgûl presumedly were as well.
• On Weathertop, Aragorn drives away the Nazgûl with fire. Now, one may say that the Nazgûl, having planted the sliver in Frodo's heart, did what they came to do and so left by their own volition and not because of the fire, but if you remember the scene, after the Witch-King's attack and retreat, there's that one Nazgûl that's a real go-getter and hangs around to do a bit more damage. Aragorn sees him and throws a flaming brand into the creature, who subsequently catches fire and leaves. Let's call this one "Torchie."
• Later we see all Nine chase after Glor...Arwen and her Frodo Baggage doll. If all Nine are present, where did Torchie get new black cloth in which to wrap his invisible form? Did Torchie have to borrow a spare robe from Khamûl? I've checked both Tolkien's and Peter Jackson's maps, and I cannot find a reputable sempstress or tailor shop between Bree and Rivendell. Maybe Torchie's cloak only appeared to burn. Hmm...
• Maybe Númenóreans impart fire resistance to their clothing?
• Isildur wasn't affected by the heat of the glede Ring nor the fact that he stood inside an active volcano, so there is precedent.
• Gandalf sure had a long time to talk with Aragorn, and it can be assumed that the two shared much information.
• Gandalf shoos Aragorn away "Swords are no more use here!" when facing the Balrog in Moria. Did Gandalf know that Aragorn may have been able to fight Roggie, a creature of flame? Anyway...
• Gandalf gets owned by the Witch-King. Shortly thereafter, Gandalf attacks the crazed Denethor, who was obviously crazy as he was of Númenórean blood and was going to try to immolate himself and his son anyway. Might have been those tomatoes.
• Gandalf does seem to use what's available.

So we have Gandalf unable to fight the Witch-King, who is flying around Minas Tirith making a mess of the defense. He has Denethor, crazed and covered in oil. Gandalf knows much and uses what's available. Flame drove the Nazgûl from Weathertop; it may work here as well. Denethor knows, somewhere inside his head, that flame really won't hurt him.

A few well-placed knocks to the head - Gandalf rebooting and 'aiming' the Steward - and suddenly we have Denethor running for the edge. "Denethor, son of Ecthelion II, Steward of Gondor, do your duty and go out to meet the Black Captain in aerial combat. The flames about you will not harm you. Go and meet whatever fate awaits you..."

This explains why Denethor's guards and entourage do not protest; their Lord is going to fight the Black Captain from whom all have fled - even Gandalf.

It wasn't realized until later that Denethor couldn't see worth a wit, and so dove out at rooster changing its perch.

[MatthewM]

A comical post alatar, and I have to say I am glad this topic was brought back on subject as I kept dismissing checking the new posts because of the side-topics that plagued it for a bit.

I wonder if PJ realizes that Denethor's fiery plunge was one of the worst changes he made to the story?

The real story, in the books, is brilliant and naturally much, much, much better. You really feel sadness for Denethor in the books, yet in the movie this feeling is almost completely absent. It truly is a pity!

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by alatar

On Weathertop, Aragorn drives away the Nazgûl with fire. Now, one may say that the Nazgûl, having planted the sliver in Frodo's heart, did what they came to do and so left by their own volition and not because of the fire, but if you remember the scene, after the Witch-King's attack and retreat, there's that one Nazgûl that's a real go-getter and hangs around to do a bit more damage. Aragorn sees him and throws a flaming brand into the creature, who subsequently catches fire and leaves. Let's call this one "Torchie."

Later we see all Nine chase after Glor...Arwen and her Frodo Baggage doll. If all Nine are present, where did Torchie get new black cloth in which to wrap his invisible form? Did Torchie have to borrow a spare robe from Khamûl? I've checked both Tolkien's and Peter Jackson's maps, and I cannot find a reputable sempstress or tailor shop between Bree and Rivendell. Maybe Torchie's cloak only appeared to burn. Hmm...

Hate to burst your bubble, but...in the pull-away shot, there's only eight Nazgul chasing Arwen. See for yourself. (Granted, all nine are later at the Ford, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

Hate to burst your bubble, but...in the pull-away shot, there's only eight Nazgul chasing Arwen. See for yourself. (Granted, all nine are later at the Ford, I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.)

Bursting my bubble? My good sir, you simply just make my case even more watertight. Now we know that there's a clothing store on the west side of the Ford in which Torchie was shopping.

And do you know from which - theatrical or EE version - the screen shot was captured.?

[Knight of Gondor]

The shot was present in both, although the screencaps site has all the extended shots, leading me to believe they're all from the EE.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by FotR script

EXT. PINE FOREST -- DAY

The white horse charges through a Pine Forest. Suddenly 2
Galloping Ringwraiths emerge from the trees behind! 2 more
Ringwraiths slide in from different directions to join the
chase. Arwen grits her teeth...urges the white horse to
greater speed.

CUT TO:

EXT. THE EAST ROAD -- DAY

The white horse speeds out of the pine trees...the 4
ringwraiths close behind PAN ONTO: 2 more ringwraiths
galloping down the hillside! AERIAL SHOT: 3 MORE RINGWRAITHS
enter frame from different directions...a total of 9
RINGWRAITHS now pursuing Frodo and Arwen! CLOSE ON: Panting
head of the WHITE ELVEN HORSE.

ARWEN
Noro lim, Asfaloth!

The script says that there are to be Nine. Will have to relisten to PJ's commentary to see if he notes the issue. Note that "Noro lim, Asfaloth" in elvish means roughly, "We were limited to a total of nine horses in this shot, Asfaloth."

Originally Posted by RotK script

CLOSE ON: With a ROAR, DENETHOR SNATCHES a FLAMING TORCH ...
and HURLS it at the PYRE!

WHOOSH! The PYRE IGNITES!

ANGLE ON: GANDALF GALLOPS toward the PYRE, knocking DENETHOR
to his FEET ... PIPPIN LEAPS from SHADOWFAX onto the BURNING
PYRE!

With a desperate strength, PIPPIN pushes FARAMIR off the
BURNING PYRE ... they tumble down the BUNDLES of WOOD, onto
the FLOOR! PIPPIN douses FLAMES on FARAMIR'S clothing.

DENETHOR SCREAMS with RAGE!

DENETHOR
No! Do not take my son from me!

DENETHOR leaps ACROSS THE PYRE, RIPPING and TUGGING at
PIPPIN! FIRE quickly spreads up DENETHOR'S OIL-SOAKED BACK as
he hauls PIPPIN off FARAMIR!

ANGLE ON: SHADOWFAX rears up and STRIKES at DENETHOR who
falls back onto the PYRE .

CLOSE ON: DENETHOR . . . he looks into his SON'S eyes . . . for a
BRIEF MOMENT SANITY returns.

DENETHOR (cont'd)
(whisper)
Faramir . . .

ANGLE ON: FLAMES begin to ENGULF DENETHOR . . .

CLOSE ON: GANDALF pulls PIPPIN to safety . . . they look in
HORROR as . . .

SUDDENLY! DENETHOR lurches off the PYRE! Now a SCREAMING,
unguided BALL OF FLAME, he runs across the CHAMBER,
disappearing out of the door!
(CONTINUED)

Final Revision - October, 2003 107.
CONTINUED: ( 2 )


CANDALF
(grimly)
So passes Denethor, Son of Ecthelion.

CUT TO:

EXT. MINAS TIRITH - DAY

DENETHOR runs across the WHITE COURT atop MINAS TIRITH ...
and PLUMMETS straight over the 700 FOOT SHEER DROP into the
FLAMING CITY below!

With that many capitalized words and exclamation marks, you can clearly see why the scene was a winner!

[Sauron the White]

Knight of Gondor did an excellent job using stills from the movie to show how this feat was not possible given the realities of the physical anatomy.

I wonder if any readers of the book will take into consideration the physical anatomy in calculating the distance that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas ran in the first part of the TWO TOWERS. Having been a long distance runner most of my life - and that represents 30 years and 60,000 miles of running - I know the fuel that powers muscles and what the body is capable of. When JRRT wrote those scenes it seems as if he merely urged the three to will their bodies to run that long distance despite the anatomical inability of an untrained and inexperienced runner to do so. I might buy the idea that Legolas could do it - Elves being different and all. And I would buy the idea that Aragorn would be in good physical shape from years in the wild but that does NOT translate into running. And as for Gimli - that is hopeless.

But there it is in the book - all three run vast distances despite the physical realities.

So lets use the same logical scales and deductive reasoning processes when we criticize things shall we? What is good for the goose - in this case the targeted whipping boy of Peter Jacksons films - is good for the gander - the beloved and cherished Holy Word of JRRT.

Forgive me for being a wise guy but this is the kind of thing that rankles me to no end.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Knight of Gondor did an excellent job using stills from the movie to show how this feat was not possible given the realities of the physical anatomy.

Not sure to what you are referring.

I wonder if any readers of the book will take into consideration the physical anatomy in calculating the distance that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas ran in the first part of the TWO TOWERS.

How far did they run? At what average mph did they run? What is the longest/fastest some human ran today? Also, what is the limiting factor in running? Does it have something to do with lactic acid or another waste product? Could lembas and/or a difference in the percentage of atmospheric oxygen help the equation (Isn't the size of insects related to the amount of oxygen available?)?

Surely someone can do the math to save the Master's honor.

And as for Gimli - that is hopeless.

Is that why PJ had him rolling most of the time?

[Sauron the White]

Surely someone can do the math to save the Master's honor.

Surely someone can perform leaps of imaginative logic and creative thinking to show just how far the Faithful will go to justify anything written by the Master.

But I do welcome the discussion. Lets just keep it grounded to what is physically possible. Will and motivation have not a darn thing to do with muscles and the ability to run lengthy distances.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Surely someone can perform leaps of imaginative logic and creative thinking to show just how far the Faithful will go to justify anything written by the Master.

I do the same when I'm making my point...

But I do welcome the discussion. Lets just keep it grounded to what is physically possible. Will and motivation have not a darn thing to do with muscles and the ability to run lengthy distances.

I found here that one Andy Jones ran 100 miles in 12 hours 5 minutes and 43 seconds. The list does not state whether he was a human, dwarf or elf.

I may have this wrong, but was it four days from the 'burial of Boromir' to the meeting of Eomer and about 45 leagues or 135 miles (I searched the Encyclopedia of Arda and the Barrow Downs for sources)? Now, I can run about 2 miles per day, and by then either I've come upon better options or the pursuit has given up, but, Sauron the White, you are the runner and so would know if it were possible for a non-average runner to run 34 miles a day for four days.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Hell, you can *walk* 34 miles a day if you're in athletic shape. 3mph (not very fast) x 12 hrs = 36 mi/day. This was just a matter of endurance, not speed; and no more remarkable than some historical military forced marches.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Heck, you can *walk* 34 miles a day if you're in athletic shape. 3mph (not very fast) x 12 hrs = 36 mi/day. This was just a matter of endurance, not speed; and no more remarkable than some historical military forced marches.

But the criticism will be that this was not level even ground and that Aragorn et al had to track their quarry and make interesting conversation while maintaining average speed.

[Sauron the White]

And what did Mr. Andy Jones do to train for this amazing feat which seems to stand by itself in all of humankind? Was he merely motivated? Was he pursuing something the gave him god-like abilities? Did he take some pills, magic foodstuffs, or drugs giving him the power of a comic book superhero to do things beyond the abilities of mere mortals? Was he a member of some powerful race of beings whose physical abilities defying his seemingly human shell of a body?

Again, I crack wise.

Mr. Jones, like every single long distance runner in the history of the world, trained. He trained for long periods of time. Daily for months, most likely years. He trained putting in countless miles - check that - he counted them all right - and did the math.

Think of it this way. An athlete who trains for a marathon - 26 miles - has a mathematical formula which calculates his ability to store and use a substance called glycogen into the muscles. Think of a car and think of gasoline and you have an idea. Rule of thumb is this: if you want to run 26 miles at one time, you need to acclimate your body to comfortably run 10.5 miles each day for no less than 12 weeks. For almost everyone it would take at least another 3 months to work up to that 12 week level. That is six months of training to do a 26 mile marathon.

Some people can do it with a little less, some with a little more - but that is the average and formula the long distance running literature generally subscribes to.

And then that marathon runner, having run their 26 miles, goes home and sacks out for a few days recovering and nursing their body.

Now you tell me about running 135 miles over three days without any training.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Now you tell me about running 135 miles over three days without any training.

And yet it moves...

To my comfort, in a world of Balrogs, Endless Stairs, Wizards and Rings of Power, we established that it is *possible* for someone to run 135 miles in four days. Could I do it? No. But is it a 1000 miles in four days? No.

Aragorn was called by Gandalf something like 'the greatest huntsmen and traveler of this age.' He was very long-lived and so like but not like us. The deed, running that far with elf and dwarf in tow (of whose physiology we know little to nothing), was thought to be extreme by others. So, when reading the text, I saw this as a feat superhuman but not ridiculously so, and so did not skip a beat when reading it. Unlike when Peter Jackson has Faramir send calvary against Osgiliath with entrenched orcs with bows.

As for new quibbling, you might want to check out the distances covered from the Paths of the Dead to Minas Tirith. That dwarfs this event.

[Sauron the White]

Alatar -- none of that changes the physical demands of supplying the muscles with glycogen. The greatest car in the world, product of the best enginering, design and manufacturing, cannot travel without gasoline. A car designed to travel with a top speed of 100 mph cannot go 200 mph no matter who is pushing down on the pedals.

Running has little to do with motivation or urgency. It has a great deal to me with the mechanics of the human body and the physical laws which govern it.

To a world used to comic books, superheroes, Chinese fighters who can balance on 200 foot pine tree limbs, and other fantasies, perhaps the run of the Three Hunters is believable.

My point is a simple one.

Many Tolkien book purists take great delight in bashing the Jackson films for every little thing they can think of that defies rigid logic. This Denethor plunge is but one example. On the previous page, Knight of Gondor uses several film stills to show just how far this distance is and concludes he could not make that run in less than three minutes. He concludes it would be impossible. And everybody piles on posting humorous witicisms about what a horses *** Peter Jackson is for showing it like this.

But when it comes to their precious book - the True Believers march in lockstep and will trot out any number of hoops and jump through them when challenged.
At that time, creative thinking, imaginative reasoning and plain old fashioned "its a fantasy for heavens sake" take over.

I see this as hypocrisy.

I could tell you about cases of people catching on fire and running several blocks to get help. I personaly know of a six year old girl whose dress caught on fire and she ran four blocks to her house causing burns on a majority of her body and nearly died. It happened. Its real. It occured here in the real world. And she was not a Numenorean or Elve or anyone with special powers.

I could tell you about the monks in Asia who burned themselves alive and amazingly kept their composure, not crying out or even twitching for sevral minutes while they were consumed. That took a will power and physical control that seems to defy logic and reason. It happened. Its real. It occured here in the real world. And they were not Numenoreans or Elves or anyone with special powers.

The point is this, in the film, yes we see several other scenes of the aproach to the tombs of the kings and can calculate how far it is, the number of stairs, degree of inclines, etc. Knight of Gondor showed this completely in his series of still on page one of this very thread. But in the film we see Denethor catching on fire, running out of the crypt and then a few seconds on the rampway before he takes the plunge.

I think this is called "willing suspension of disbelief". It is evident in films beyond LOTR. And it is evident in the LOTR book also.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Lets just remember that.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Alatar -- none of that changes the physical demands of supplying the muscles with glycogen. The greatest car in the world, product of the best enginering, design and manufacturing, cannot travel without gasoline. A car designed to travel with a top speed of 100 mph cannot go 200 mph no matter who is pushing down on the pedals.

Agreed. But the Professor, through his writing, convinces me that Balrogs are as common as clover, and so persons running 135 miles without Gatorade or a corporate sponsor is not unusual.

Running has little to do with motivation or urgency. It has a great deal to me with the mechanics of the human body and the physical laws which govern it.

As I know...once had to trace the biological path when a person rings a doorbell from the molecular to cognitive, and also worked with myosin, and so you can see by my name dropping that I can pretend to know running as you do.

To a world used to comic books, superheroes, Chinese fighters who can balance on 200 foot pine tree limbs, and other fantasies, perhaps the run of the Three Hunters is believable.

And movies and the nightly news ("Bigfoot captured on film voting for Clinton!")

Many Tolkien book purists take great delight in bashing the Jackson films for every little thing they can think of that defies rigid logic. This Denethor plunge is but one example. On the previous page, Knight of Gondor uses several film stills to show just how far this distance is and concludes he could not make that run in less than three minutes. He concludes it would be impossible. And everybody piles on posting humorous witicisms about what a horses *** Peter Jackson is for showing it like this.

I'm not a purist, but I take delight in making fun of the overtly silly as a way of questioning why the plunge, for example, was better than the pyre.

But when it comes to their precious book - the True Believers march in lockstep and will trot out any number of hoops and jump through them when challenged.
At that time, creative thinking, imaginative reasoning and plain old fashioned "its a fantasy for heavens sake" take over.

I see this as hypocrisy.

And it is. Everyone has sacred cows penned up somewhere. Ever go cow-tipping?

I could tell you about cases of people catching on fire and running several blocks to get help. I personaly know of a six year old girl whose dress caught on fire and she ran four blocks to her house causing burns on a majority of her body and nearly died. It happened. Its real. It occured here in the real world. And she was not a Numenorean or Elve or anyone with special powers.

I could tell you about the monks in Asia who burned themselves alive and amazingly kept their composure, not crying out or even twitching for sevral minutes while they were consumed. That took a will power and physical control that seems to defy logic and reason. It happened. Its real. It occured here in the real world. And they were not Numenoreans or Elves or anyone with special powers.

Note that I'm a skeptic, and so would need hard evidence even if I saw the things that you witnessed. Sorry, that's just me.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Lets just remember that.

I wouldn't have it otherwise. Challenge what I write, and I will do the same and we will be the better for it (and if I get annoying, let me know that too ).

[Sauron the White]

A very good reply Alatar - and in fine spirit and I appreciate that.

My point is simply that ALL OF US - you, me, the whole bunch of us, willingly suspend our disbelief for something we are willing to invest ourselves in. Its easy. And without it, much of literature and film would fall flat on its collective face.

Sidebar anecdote where I can talk about my kids---- my daughter - who is 30 - gave me the film TALLADEGA NIGHTS to watch the other day. She knows I hate contemporary silly comedies but said this one "was really funny". So I watched it and felt it was one of the worst films I had ever seen. She was highly offended when I told her. I reminded her of a scene where the characters explain that they have stripped all the sponsor decals off the racecar because not a single sponsor is still supporting them. Its the ME car since only they are behind it. Fine. But less than a minute later the car is revealed positively covered with dozens, perhaps scores of sponsor decals. When I mentioned this I was told I was making too much of it and I should just go with it.

And she was right. To enjoy that film, I had to willingly suspend my disbelief a little. Okay - I had to willingly suspend my disbelief a great deal. But I never liked it from the very start, was unwilling to invest myself into it, and thus every flaw stood out like a sore thumb.

I am not going to go on some Will Ferrell fan site and start bashing the movie. That would be pointless.

Does any of this make sense? Is my point coming across at all? This is a great site. But the smugness and air of superiority some of the True Believers have regarding the movies is a bit much given their own altar of worship. Your point about sacred cows it would appear is much the same.

[Quempel]

We should just call Mythbusters and let Adam and Jamie sort it all out.

It's a fantasy book and a fantasy film. No ring can actually make people disappear. Neither are there gaint eagles flying around with short hairy footed people in their claws. Hey maybe in a fantasy world people can run 145 miles in a day, and a man on fire can run up three flights of stairs through the woods and over the hill only to jump off a cliff. Its a fantasy. Not real. Both the book and the movie.

And for the record freezing someone in carbonite isn't real either. Nor are 50 foot apes.

[Knight of Gondor]

Aragorn was the greatest of living men, of a kind seldom seen in Middle-Earth, even in the third age. It is improbable that a regular man could run the distance he ran. Far more improbable that an eighty-something man could! But he was of the race of Numenor. Legolas was Elf-kind, that does not die. Gimli was of the hardy mountain-folk, a dwarf. None of these can modern science tell us anything about.

This is not a NORMAL world they live in. The sun is a vessel of light that sails overhead. A star is actually a Silmaril kindled on the breast of Elwing, who bore it to Earendil the mariner.

In reality, the dead cannot linger because of a curse pronounced by living man. No spell can hold a door closed in today's world, and as yet, no cloak is available to shield the body from the sight of enemies.

We don't go to Tolkien's world to read the ordinary. We go to read the extraordinary. Of course, this is not a blank check to superimpose an alternate reality whenever necessary. If the Three Hunters were more hardy in achieving their journey, it is not a dues ex machina to say this is fantasy. (Even Eomer was astounded at their deed, showing that there are still standards of performance which the Three Hunters surpassed.) It is simply an alternate world where extraordinary people do extraordinary things.

And if you simply must persist in dietary nitpicking, may I point out the unknown factor of the content of glycogen in lembas? Recall, without lembas, Frodo and Sam would have laid down to die long before achieving their mission.

[Sauron the White]

Knight of Gondor.... thank you for your post which proves in bold capital letters just my point. Many people here revel in some perverse delight in attacking the Jakcosn films while defending to the death every single word of the books. They use deductive reasoning, logic, calculations, common sense, mathematics, and any other device they can employ to make the films look bad. Fine. But when it comes to the books, they put on the cloak of the True Believer and act as if they are defending the Word of the Lord from infidels.

When you attack the films that is fair game. When other attack the books that is nitpicking. Do you not see the hypocrisy?

I thought we were done on this topic yesterday when alatar and I appeared to reach a very acceptable accomodation and understanding. But if you want to go again, I will oblige you.

In your post you did exactly what I predicted some would do to justify the feat of running 135 miles in 3 days without any training. Here is what I posted yesterday asking how a Mr. Andy Jones could run over 100 miles in one day.

And what did Mr. Andy Jones do to train for this amazing feat which seems to stand by itself in all of humankind? Was he merely motivated? Was he pursuing something the gave him god-like abilities? Did he take some pills, magic foodstuffs, or drugs giving him the power of a comic book superhero to do things beyond the abilities of mere mortals? Was he a member of some powerful race of beings whose physical abilities defying his seemingly human shell of a body?

Your explaination uses several of these to explain how it worked in LOTR. Ray Charles could have seen this coming.

In point of fact, I said in the beginning that I could buy the idea of Legolas performing this feat given the extraordinary physiology of Elves. Aragorn may have been given long life but I know of nothing which allowed his muscles to work independently of the rest of the human race. Being a great hunter, tracker and explorer is one thing - being able to run superhuman distances is quite another.

And now we come to Gimli. Dwarves may be strong, they may be hardy, they may be tough, and they may be great to have on your side in a fight. But their anatomy and physiology WORK AGAINST THE ABILITY TO RUN. Long distance runners alomst exclusively have very small body frames compared to most of the population. They have longer legs and weaker upper bodies with little upper body muscle mass. They tend to be thin or even skinny. But their leg muscles would shame the average football player. Their physiology and anatomy helps them run. The body of a dwarf- short stunted legs, heavy upper body with lots of muscle mass, is the direct opposite of a runners body. It is foolish and totally contradictory to fact to think tht someone with this body type and no long distance training could run 135 miles in three days... even with your magic drug of lembas.

But that was not my point from the start. My point is that the True Believers, the Defenders of the Word, will employ all means of creative thinking to justify anything JRRT wrote and do so with a completely straight face. At the same time, many enjoy ripping the films to shreds ignoring the faults of their own love. That is hypocrisy and I wish it would stop or at least be tempered with the realization of what is really happening here.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

In your post you did exactly what I predicted some would do to justify the feat of running 135 miles in 3 days without any training. Here is what I posted yesterday asking how a Mr. Andy Jones could run over 100 miles in one day.

Four days, and that's assuming that the planet that is Middle Earth turned one every 24 hours. Without a sizeable satellite like our moon, who knows what its rotation would be...

alatar prepares to bring out quantum mechanics to defend to the death (of reason) the works of Tolkien.

In point of fact, I said in the beginning that I could buy the idea of Legolas performing this feat given the extraordinary physiology of Elves. Aragorn may have been given long life but I know of nothing which allowed his muscles to work independently of the rest of the human race. Being a great hunter, tracker and explorer is one thing - being able to run superhuman distances is quite another.

My take on Tolkien's world is that we're running down from concentrated power to the more mundane and pedestrian. Elves leave, the world no longer looks like Lorien, Men live shorter lives (from 900 years to 1/10 that, and when I get the time I will graph the life expectancy curve while noting the outlier that is Elessar), and so everything is not exactly like it is today. And note that superhuman distances, as you say, is subjective. Look at what human kind has done. The Great Wall, the Pyramids, Monday Night Football - these seemingly superhuman creations were created by the hands of average Joe's and Jane's, but they look unbelievable to me, and I have electricity.

Did the warrior messenger that ran the first marathon, Pheidippides, train extensively and wear custom made sneakers? Sure, he may have died after delivering his message, but that was due his seeing the Marathon to Athens bus schedule that would have taken him the same distance in a third of the time for 2 dinars.

And now we come to Gimli. Dwarves may be strong, they may be hardy, they may be tough, and they may be great to have on your side in a fight. But their anatomy and physiology WORK AGAINST THE ABILITY TO RUN. Long distance runners alomst exclusively have very small body frames compared to most of the population. They have longer legs and weaker upper bodies with little upper body muscle mass. They tend to be thin or even skinny. But their leg muscles would shame the average football player. Their physiology and anatomy helps them run. The body of a dwarf- short stunted legs, heavy upper body with lots of muscle mass, is the direct opposite of a runners body. It is foolish and totally contradictory to fact to think tht someone with this body type and no long distance training could run 135 miles in three days... even with your magic drug of lembas.

Four days. And Gimli may not be the sprinter that Jackson purported, but the creature did not tire. He most likely had to continually 'catch up' while the other two Hunters stood around and chatted about Legolas's hair, but still he could stay with them. And it's well known that Dwarves carried secret containers of helium which could be used to inflate their leather jerkins. Legolas obviously towed the floating Gimli behind him like a balloon - if that's not obvious from the text, I just don't know what else to say...

But that was not my point from the start. My point is that the True Believers, the Defenders of the Word, will employ all means of creative thinking to justify anything JRRT wrote and do so with a completely straight face. At the same time, many enjoy ripping the films to shreds ignoring the faults of their own love. That is hypocrisy and I wish it would stop or at least be tempered with the realization of what is really happening here.

You tend to see this trait in humans. Love is blind, and all that. My guess is that if you were to look into some of the other parts of the forum, you might see the same skepticism that you read so much here in regards to the Peter Jackson films.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Fine. But when it comes to the books, they put on the cloak of the True Believer and act as if they are defending the Word of the Lord from infidels.

And Eru help the person who dares comment the least bit questioningly about Tolkien's style. They'd need at least Harry Potter's Invisibility Cloak for self-defense.

*runs swiftly away--for how many miles or days I won't say--from al's quantum mechanics and the dread horseman*

[Sauron the White]

They met up with Eomer and company on the fourth day. The vast bulk of that 135 was done in three days time.

Nothing that has been said changes the basic human anatomy or physiology. Glycogen supplies muscles and the muscles must be trained over long periods of time to store glycogen. Nothing that has been said gets around that basic fact of reality.

Thank you for pointing out what happens when an untrained runner runs 20 miles - they can drop dead. While doing my six miles this morning I thought of that Marathon soldier and you beat me to it. Now double that and do it for three straight days. Impossible.

But Alatar, again I thank you. You join with others to prove my point. I am not arguing about the Three Hunters in principle. My point has been said again and again that what I am railing against in hypocrisy. Over and over again, this site has been used by the True Believers to bash the Jackson films. They use every manner of argument including, logic, reasoning, their deductive powers, mathematics, philosophy, common sense, physics, science and good old fashioned creative thinking. And god bless all of you for being so smart.

But those same people, when it comes to works of JRRT, have a blind spot that is immense. Yesterday you described it as your own sacred cow.

Regardless if you love the books or if you love the films - and I happen to love both - it takes a deliberate effort to believe in what we love --- its called the willing suspension of disbelief. We all do it. But when its quickly and blindly extended to the books with their holes and faults, but not the films with their holes and faults that is hypocrisy. And that is an ugly mantle to wrap yourself in.

And it's well known that Dwarves carried secret containers of helium which could be used to inflate their leather jerkins. Legolas obviously towed the floating Gimli behind him like a ballon - if that's not obvious from the text, I just don't know what else to say...

That was truly funny. It made me laugh.

[Finduilas]

Could I suggest that the hypocrisy is caused by the fact that since Tolkien created ME, he is able to make the impossible possible, but since PJ is only the director of a movie based of LotR, he is considered by the "True Believers" to have no right in doing such things? Its Tolkiens world. Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas can, in his world run that far in that amount of time. Denethor on fire..... well, he didn't.

I don't want to join in on this arguement, but I did want to make an excuse for the hypocrisy(and sure, I'm often a hypocrite...).

[Sauron the White]

Fin ... interesting take on it all. I simply find nothing in all of the ME writings to indicate that the normal human physics and physiology have been drastically altered to permit such a thing. Or are we back to "its only make believe to go with it"? In the end that excuses everything.

[Quempel]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Could I suggest that the hypocrisy is caused by the fact that since Tolkien created ME, he is able to make the impossible possible, but since PJ is only the director of a movie based of LotR, he is considered by the "True Believers" to have no right in doing such things? Its Tolkiens world. Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas can, in his world run that far in that amount of time. Denethor on fire..... well, he didn't.

I don't want to join in on this arguement, but I did want to make an excuse for the hypocrisy(and sure, I'm often a hypocrite...).

I agree.

And once again, it's a fantasy book and movie. So in impossible world of reality sure a human can't run that many miles in a day. But in a fantasy book...they can. Superman flys because of the high he gets off our yellow sun, but in reality humans don't fly. It is called a fantasy book/movie for a reason. Funny that it's ok to believe PJ's Denathor can run three miles while burning up steep slopes and it's believable part of the movie fantasy, but heaven forbid Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli run 145 kilo's (was Tolkien talking English Meters or American Miles?)

Hello pot met kettle.

And for the record Middle Earth was Tolkien's world, not Peter Jackson's. Pete just interpreted it and made movies, he did not invent it. And that is the difference between the two. Again I point out my statement about Gibson, it is the same with Jackson. Just because a producer/director made tons of awards and money off of a story, does not make it their story. Same can be said for any director (such as Lucas) who make movies out of stories that have long been written by others.

I must say however, this debate, or whatever it is, has drawn me out of lurking. Which can be considered either a good or bad thing, depending on the point of view.

[Knight of Gondor]

I honestly feel that all of this is pointless. It's like demanding to know where Gandalf peed while he was imprisoned on Orthanc, or how Luthien could cloak herself in the guise of another animal. These intrusive "that's not real!" objections tend to indicate (to me) that if all of these challenges come to your mind, you're not a fantasy buff.

When you attack the films that is fair game. When other attack the books that is nitpicking. Do you not see the hypocrisy?

Actually...no. Peter Jackson's job was to convert the books from print to movie. He wasn't hired to rewrite LotR. All in all, I give the man high marks, I believe he did a good job.

Aragorn may have been given long life but I know of nothing which allowed his muscles to work independently of the rest of the human race. Being a great hunter, tracker and explorer is one thing - being able to run superhuman distances is quite another.

I don't quite feel the compulsion to defend the act. I am certain there are numerous other examples of implausibility within the novels. But I note that absence of knowledge ("I know of nothing") is not knowledge of absence (he could not have).

But that was not my point from the start. My point is that the True Believers, the Defenders of the Word, will employ all means of creative thinking to justify anything JRRT wrote and do so with a completely straight face. At the same time, many enjoy ripping the films to shreds ignoring the faults of their own love. That is hypocrisy and I wish it would stop or at least be tempered with the realization of what is really happening here.

Naturally, fantasy aficionados would like to reconcile the differences between the real world and Middle-Earth to make belief and acceptance easier for their rational minds. I feel that fantasy in this case does not need defending.

Fantasy exists as a medium of escapism for many, if not most. I'll wager that most of your readers endeavoring to defend the otherwise implausible moments in Lord of the Rings are doing so because they want to believe it is attainable in the real world. They would rather make our world in the image of Middle-Earth than the opposite.

If real life is the apple, fantasy is the orange. The defining trait of escapism is in immersing one's self in an alternate world; its very merit of the orange lies in being different from the apple. To try to reconcile the orange into the apple is defeating the very purpose of the orange.

I also think you miss the point regarding fault-finding in the film. Having accepted the novels, the quarrels and nitpicking result from the disparities between them and the film adaptation. Finding logical faults in one thing alone (the books) is much different than finding fault between two things (translation from book to film), especially if one thing is supposed to be a translation between mediums of two things.

Hence, when Denethor races for miles while on fire to jump off the pinnacle of Minas Tirith (look out beloooow), fans protest not so much that this is impractical and illogical, but that it is different from the book's events, which are far more believable.

They met up with Eomer and company on the fourth day. The vast bulk of that 135 was done in three days time.

Nothing that has been said changes the basic human anatomy or physiology. Glycogen supplies muscles and the muscles must be trained over long periods of time to store glycogen. Nothing that has been said gets around that basic fact of reality.

Okay, let's get mathematical about this. The average mortal human running speed is about 15 miles an hour. Faster runners can achieve faster speeds, but let's stay with 15 mph. Discounting for the moment the need for sustenance and rests, running at the average 15 miles per hour, one could achieve 135 miles' distance in nine hours of solid running.

Obviously, mortal humans cannot keep up a constant speed of running. Let's say, for more than 15 minutes, or one quarter of an hour at a time. Multiplying nine hours by four, we can surmise that 36 intervals of 15 minutes at a time running at 15 miles an hour would achieve the same distance as 9 hours of solid running.

Now let us allot 72 hours (three days) and not count the extended "day four" period of time during which the Three Hunters meet Eomer. Multiplying 72 by 4, we find that there are a total of 288 quarter-hour periods in the span of three 24-hour days. Therefore, the Three Hunters need only have spent nine percent of their journeying time running at a constant speed of 15 miles an hour for fifteen minutes at a time.

To be merciful, we could cut the periods of running down to 10 minutes' time. The distance could then be achieved with 54 intervals running 15 miles an hour, or only about one-fifth of the alloted time of 72 hours.

To be further merciful (accounting for the time(s) of rest and sleep), let's only allot 60 hours. That's 240 periods of 15 minutes each running at 15 miles an hour for ten minutes at a time. Thus requiring only 23% of the time to be used to run.

On the negative side, there were breaks to find tracks and breaks for rest and sustenance.

But if we are searching for a naturalistic explanation for an otherwise improbable deed, we must also account for the hardiness of the races of men, elves and dwarves, and for the otherworldly virtue of the Elvish waybread.

Let me know if you have objections to my math...I'm not above simple errors, but I used a calculator and double-checked my figures, and as a university business student, I have a pretty good background in college math.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Fin ... interesting take on it all. I simply find nothing in all of the ME writings to indicate that the normal human physics and physiology have been drastically altered to permit such a thing. Or are we back to "its only make believe to go with it"? In the end that excuses everything.

"Drastically" is a subjective word. Try living 900 years. Guessing that your blood chemistry is slightly different as you need to clean out all of those 'free radicals' that can build up, which can shoot holes in your DNA, which can lead to copying errors, ...

Would the same human - twins - live longer in Mordor or Bree (assuming no one had them from dinner)? Could the Third Age have a world more like Lorien than Mordor? What does that do for the blood? Why do some present day athletes train at higher altitudes with sparse oxygen (besides having time shares that they can't unload) other than to increase their stamina? What if Third Age Middle Earth was a few more percentages of oxygen and less nitrogen? Why have some athletes been caught taking performance-altering drugs? Could these 'drugs' be part of the bread that Aragorn eats?

Note that some are hypocrites and some just like a good argu...discussion.

I completely understand your point. But to me, with all of the other unbelievable things in Middle Earth, I find the running of the Three easily explained in the Books. As others have said, I carp about PJ as (1) it's genetic with me, (2) I could have done better - I just lack the talent, resources and experience and (3) it sure beats looking at data.

Thanks for playing along.


** It's funny, but last night my son, no where close to being a teenager, asked me to talk about the Lord of the Rings while he crossed over into sleeping. He saw that I was reading HoME - that's how it started. Anyway, he's watched all of the Peter Jackson movies (My son...Duh!) and we referred to them as he remembers the movies and RotK video game (that used movie clips) better than the story he's never read. Anyway, he said of Gimli, "He fell down a lot. He's stupid!"

Thanks PJ. My job's a little harder now that I have to undo some of your work.

[Sauron the White]

I will fight the urge to proudly beat my chest and proclaim that all these intellectual gymnastics only again prove my ultimate point.............. BUT ...........
okay ... lets discuss.


Knight of Gondor ....... excellent post and very good use of matematics and science. I only wish that you and others here knew as much about the physiology of running as you do about Tolkien. A well trained distance runner trains for four to six months to run a single 26 mile marathon. After that grueling effort, they usually take from several days to a week off. You need that for your muscles to rest and recoup. I have run many marathons and was well trained for all of them. For most of them I could not go to work the next day and I taught at a desk. Sometimes you can barely lift your leg more than a few inches off the ground that evening after you complete the 26 miles.

It is simply a physical impossibility that an untrained individual can run the equal of 1.6 marathons three days in a row. Just cannot be done given the physical anatomy and the mechanics and demands of running.

Is there some reason why this is not sinking in?

This is not about formulas, this is not about mathematics, this is not about super powered baked goods or anything else. Like Robert DeNiro says in THE DEERHUNTER ... "this is this".

You can be a strapping hulk of a man who can work a 12 hour shift in a factory or lumber mill but you cannot run very far without a long period of training. You can be a killing machine soldier but you cannot run very far without a long period of training. You can be the most motivated person in the world chasing the demons of Hell itself to save your loved ones, but you cannot run very rar without a long period of training.

Its simple physical anatomy and physiology.

Why is this not sinking in?

I will agree... and let me put this in caps so I am clear...

I KNOW THIS IS A FANTASY.
I KNOW THIS IS A WORLD CREATED BY JRRT.
I KNOW HE IS FREE TO MAKE IT UP AS HE GOES ALONG.
I KNOW THAT JACKSON DID NOT CREATE THIS WORLD.

Yes, so lets get all that out of the way.

By one point from the beginning is that the same rigid standard which is applied (with grinning delight by some here) to pointing out the foibles and errors of the Jackson films is totally absent when discussing anything that approaches a hole, defect or shortcoming in the books. Alatar seems to be fair-minded enough to see that and admit. What is wrong with this whole thing? IS it me?

I refuse to accept the idea that its a fantasy written by JRRT and thus anything he put in there is 100% perfection regardless of the failings of its own internal structure. Even a fantasy world has an internal structure that it must adhere to. That is fundamental.

Maybe I am the fool for trying to get people to see that their Emperor occassionally runs the streets lacking proper clothing. Not always - not most of the time - but some of the time..... occassionally.

And I still love the Emperor regardless.

[Quempel]

Even a fantasy world has an internal structure that it must adhere to. That is fundamental

This is where I see the difference, to me a fantasy world does not have to have an internal structure to adhere to. It is not a fundamental part of the fantasy world, unlike reality. This is why I can wrap my head around the Three Hunters being able to run for miles on end, its not real. It is also why I can believe (even if it is a bad choice on PJ's part) that Denathor can run on fire and jump off a cliff. It is also why I can wrap my head around the idea that hobbit's, jedi's and whatever else can be in the middle of a spewing volcano and not have their lungs burnt to crisp by the sulfiric acids in the air, much less the heat.

I do find it interesting that some people can accept certain portions of the fantasy world, without being able to accept other parts.

Why is it so hard to imagine that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are fantasy characters in a book/movie and could possibly run that far, yet it is easy to accept some of the other non-reality issues? The fact is there are no Elves on this planet. There are no Hobbits, Lembas, Orcs, Giant Eagles, or Tree Herding Ents. Why apply the standards of reality to the fantasy? Fantasy is something we all love to think about and some even wish could happen. But the reality is there is no Aragorn coming to save the day, no great war of good and evil, and no way a real person could run that far.

You assume that our standards and rules apply to those living beings in middle earth, and it is my opinion those rules and principles do not need to apply to middle earth.

What I have a problem with is not the whole Denethor running while on fire, sure it didn't make sense, but why the change at all. The book Denethor death was much better, it almost was a redeaming death for Denethor, the movie made him look like a weak fool, not a greedy jerk (for lack of better terms here) that I had always pictured him to be who finally realized what a jerk he had been, especially to Faramir.

[Sauron the White]

There are times I feel like someone who has been preaching to the villagers at some backwater in Appalachia about the evil of incest. They keep shaking their heads marvelling at the crap that stranger keeps babbling. They are happy with their ways and accept them completely. But they smile at him and keep on keeping on.

[Knight of Gondor]

I will fight the urge to proudly beat my chest and proclaim that all these intellectual gymnastics only again prove my ultimate point

Your point being that Tolkien fans adhere to an inconsistent need to defend Tolkien while attacking Peter Jackson? I have already illustrated the differences, and already stated that I feel no inner compulsion to prove or disprove the capability of the Three Hunters to do so. I entertained the challenge strictly for the intellectual challenge it provided.

Allow me to illustrate.

It is simply a physical impossibility that an untrained individual can run the equal of 1.6 marathons three days in a row.

No it isn't. It has been done before.

There are times I feel like someone who has been preaching to the villagers at some backwater in Appalachia about the evil of incest. They keep shaking their heads marvelling at the crap that stranger keeps babbling. They are happy with their ways and accept them completely. But they smile at him and keep on keeping on.

Please avoid being offensive. Pointing out inconsistent fans is one thing. Insulting those fans is quite another.

[Sauron the White]

What is now obvious to me is this. Many here believe all or some of the following:

1- if JRRT wrote it - its right and shut your mouth otherwise.
2- it does NOT matter if it makes sense to you, it makes sense to us because we believe
3- this is a fantasy and in a fantasy there does not have to be anything real
4- magic stuff like super races of people, magic foodstuffs and will power can make anything possible despite the rules of science and physiology
5-Peter Jackson sucks .... and what else needs to be said
6- Jackson did not make a page for page word for word translation of the book to film so anything that deviates from that is heresy... and what did I do with that bundle of kindling
7-if any of items 2 through 6 do not work for a particular argument, please always refer back to item #1

You have a wonderful all encompassing Catch 22 here. If Tolkien created his world, anything he has his creations do in his world is perfect and thus cannot be worng. Thus, there are no errors in the work, there are no holes (other than the previously mention major loophole), there are no lapses in logic or reason, and there can be no defying of scinece, physiology or anything else we might normally call reality. We got it covered and can never be wrong.

Since Peter Jakcson did not create that same world, any deviation on behalf of Jackson from the Written Word is automatically wrong and in error.

Now who is insulting who with that type of reasoning? And you hide behind the presumption that you are engaging in free and open intellectual debate. Gimme a break.

I give Alatar a lot of credit. He admits his sacred cows. He makes good arguments but still admits there is some hypocrisy involved. I guess to some others even that admission is heresy.

I went to a catholic school for 12 years taught by priests and nuns. Eavery semester we took religion class - not really religion but Catholic Religion. In the end, every discussion came down to two things:
1- This is Church doctrine is right and proper and correct because the Pope says it is so.
2- The Pope speaks with the word and approval from God and can never be wrong.

This discussion and the arguments posed forth take me back to those 12 years of education.

[alatar]

Being a picker of bones and a quibbler extraordinaire:

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

What is now obvious to me is this. Many here believe all or some of the following:

Many assumes more than 50%. That to me is way to high considering the persons posting in the Movies.

1- if JRRT wrote it - its right and shut your mouth otherwise.

You might want to check your keyboard cable. Surely some will disagree with you when you take on Tolkien, but you can post all the same. Think of it as posting, "Go Browns!" on a Pittsburgh Steelers (American football) fan site. At least here people will use good grammar.

2- it does NOT matter if it makes sense to you, it makes sense to us because we believe

I came from this from the other side. I was very anti-PJ all due to the Gandalf vs Witch-King scene. I was amazed that everyone did not agree with me that the scene was the worst thing PJ could ever do. Now, with some help from posters on the other side, I have learned to love the bomb.

3- this is a fantasy and in a fantasy there does not have to be anything real

Not true. The reason Tolkien's world works ("Praise him beyond all praise!") is that, for much of it, it is internally consistent. Dragons talk but do not farm. Ale never gives anyone a hangover. Tolkien sets up and follows his own rules...er...for the most part. Check out the Books section for talking foxes, talking trolls, steam locomotives and other oddities (dare I say mistakes?!?) noted by members here.

4- magic stuff like super races of people, magic foodstuffs and will power can make anything possible despite the rules of science and physiology

By accepting Tolkien's world, you accept his rules. Lembas help the body and will but will not sate your thirst. Elven cloaks will not stop arrows. And again, concerned the 'running' topic, you assume that his world works like ours when the magic etc would indicate otherwise.

5-Peter Jackson sucks .... and what else needs to be said

Count the pages posted by me in the Sequence by Sequence, and yet I'm still going (it's a gift).

6- Jackson did not make a page for page word for word translation of the book to film so anything that deviates from that is heresy... and what did I do with that bundle of kindling

It's out back by the garage. I swallowed many changes, like many (there's that word again) others here did as well. But, even you have to admit, some of the changes were just silly.

Since Peter Jakcson did not create that same world, any deviation on behalf of Jackson from the Written Word is automatically wrong and in error.

What I hope is apparent is when you know the lyrics to a song - Beatles, The Who, Avril Lavigne - and when some one covers the song, the difference is magnified due to the difference in singer and the change in words. You note a change in the expected pattern and so examine it more closely.

Then you just pile on for lack of other entertainment.

Now who is insulting who with that type of reasoning? And you hide behind the presumption that you are engaging in free and open intellectual debate. Gimme a break.

Think that the Faithful, the Heretic and the Stormcrow (that would be me) all post here.

I give Alatar a lot of credit.

I accept PayPal.

He admits his sacred cows. He makes good arguments but still admits there is some hypocrisy involved. I guess to some others even that admission is heresy.

As I've said many many times before: "Take a breath - remember, we’re typing on an internet site regarding a man’s work. Our eternal destiny and that of the world is not going to be decided here." Unless you cannot accept that the Three Hunters ran 135 miles in 3.5 days...

I went to a catholic school for 12 years taught by priests and nuns. Eavery semester we took religion class - not really religion but Catholic Religion. In the end, every discussion came down to two things:
1- This is Church doctrine is right and proper and correct because the Pope says it is so.
2- The Pope speaks with the word and approval from God and can never be wrong.

This discussion and the arguments posed forth take me back to those 12 years of education.

Maybe your argument is with someone else then. I can truly understand that.

Anyway, I've posted here in fun, I'm done and care not how far Denethor did run.

[Knight of Gondor]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

What is now obvious to me is this. Many here believe all or some of the following:

1- if JRRT wrote it - its right and shut your mouth otherwise.

I'm looking around and trying to figure out who you are talking to. Or about.

2- it does NOT matter if it makes sense to you, it makes sense to us because we believe
3- this is a fantasy and in a fantasy there does not have to be anything real

You seem intent on ignoring the previous points posted by Alatar and myself which indicate not a free-styling "anything goes" world, but a world where events extend just beyond our borders of mortality. C.S. Lewis once likened the miracles of Christ to a game of chess, where this move or that move may be taken back at certain points, but at no time do you suppose you can move any piece anywhere at any time. This destroys the value of the game, and creates unruly anarchy. So it would seem to be with fantasy. And again, if these little things continue to nag and irritate you (still further, that they don't bother others) then I submit for a second time that perhaps fantasy just isn't your cup of tea.

5-Peter Jackson sucks .... and what else needs to be said

You are either not referring to me, or did not read what I wrote. Either way, you owe it to us to make clear to whom you refer.

You have a wonderful all encompassing Catch 22 here. If Tolkien created his world, anything he has his creations do in his world is perfect and thus cannot be worng. Thus, there are no errors in the work, there are no holes (other than the previously mention major loophole), there are no lapses in logic or reason, and there can be no defying of scinece, physiology or anything else we might normally call reality. We got it covered and can never be wrong.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth at least, and to my knowledge, Alatar's. I do not believe anyone here suggests Tolkien is perfect, or is averse to highlighting flaws in the book. Tolkien himself was constantly rewriting the series.

I went to a catholic school for 12 years taught by priests and nuns. Eavery semester we took religion class - not really religion but Catholic Religion. In the end, every discussion came down to two things:
1- This is Church doctrine is right and proper and correct because the Pope says it is so.
2- The Pope speaks with the word and approval from God and can never be wrong.

This discussion and the arguments posed forth take me back to those 12 years of education.

The truth seems to come forth, and I believe that in revealing latent hostility towards religion, we have taken a step beyond the scope of this forum. For the record, as a born-again Christian, I reject the notion that any mortal (Pope or not, "Saint" or not, "Mother of God" or not) can attain perfection in word or deed on earth, save one, Jesus Christ. Anyone who claims to be without sin is a liar.

Nonetheless, this thread, this forum and this website were not created to debate or discuss specifically religious themes apart from Tolkien's world. If you would be so kind as to e-mail me, I would look forward to continuing the discussion there.