Green as a representation of evil

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Good point there too, SpM

In later writings men [themselves, that is] hold that they were meant for life everlasting, but for Morgoth and the Fall of Men. Whether that implies that everything else was meant too, I can not tell for sure.

Should we invite Aiwendil and lindil in?

Tisk, tisk. Those men...

[Neferchoirwen]

Almost a year ago, I took the liberty of signing up for an online class about Hary Potter, and there were discussion on the evil connotation of green. It's a pity, though that I wasn't able to save the lecture abut it, but I remember it being mentioned that a person born with green eyes being typecasted as evil in ancient Ireland.

I think green is as natural and as unnatural as it gets. The mere sight of green can calm stresses eyes, but veiwing under green lights is scary. I mean, I was brought up by cartoons whose villains were living in green-lit dungeons. What is more freaky than that?

I guess it depends where green is most fit to be seen, or, where we think green fits in the scenery.

btw, I tried SpM's survey of disgust link, and it makes a lot of sense. Blue is associated with disinfectants, and so we are more likely to touch something blue that something yellow, which reminds most people of puss.

[Lobelia]

Originally Posted by davem

In folk tradition green was the colour of the 'fair folk' (fairies/elves) & wearing it without their permission was considered to be a provocative act, & anyone who did so risked their wrath. Conversely, anyone who was granted such permission - like various poets & visionaries was considered to be both specially blessed & more than a little 'suspect'. I suppose they were a kind of traditional version of the 'Elf-Friend'.(ie Thomas the Rhymer, or Thomas of Erceldoune, or True Thomas, a real person, was traditionally given a coat of green cloth by the Fairy Queen, along with the gift of prophecy - 'The tongue that cannot lie' - in return for his service. Thomas is an interesting character, & was associated with both William Wallace & Robert the Bruce. He was responsible for a number of prophecies which later came true - whether he really got that gift from the Fairy Queen is a matter of opinion, though).

http://myths.allinfoabout.com/feature32.html

All true and good stuff! I should like to add that in a mediaeval context, green was associated with poison, which actually applies more to Lewis than Tolkien (I think someone mentioned THE SILVER CHAIR? )Any Harry Potter fans out there may remember that in CHAMBER OF SECRETS there were references to 'poison green' (and green was the colour of Slytherin House). JKR is a lady who knows a lot about history, myth, etc. and uses cultural references in her fiction. But Tolkien doesn't seem to use any colour as strictly good or evil.

[Bêthberry]

Another cultural context. Or two.

In those opulent Renaissance religious paintings of the Virgin and Child, blue was the colour used for Mary, in accordance with the iconography of the time. There is a painting in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City which uses green to depict Mary and the painting most often is regarded as a failed attempt to represent her. Perhaps some enterprising New York Downer knows the painting and can expand upon this tradition. For the life of me, I cannot remember the artist nor the name of the painting. I just remember that one of the Museum guides directed me to the painting and explained the tradition wherebye its depiction has been regarded as a failed attempt and walked me around all the other painting which used blue.

In medieval times, colours assumed their significance of nobility or royalty due to the cost of the dyes. Purple and blue were costly dyes and could be afforded only by the wealthy. Hence they became associated with the upper classes.

And, yes, the song "Greensleeves" describes an unfaithful women, whose sleeves are marked by grassy stains from romping around on the ground.

Yet Tolkien clothes Goldberry first in a gown of silver and green, then one in silver alone with shoes shining like silver mail. Tom is clothed in blue but with green stockings. I'm not sure how significant these colours are, but the colours of the candles in The House of Bombadil, white and yellow, are the colours of the popes.

There must be some books on Iconography which would help us here but I don't have the references at hand right now.

[Joy]

Wow, thanks all. These have been really interesting to read.

I will go back and comment on some specifics later.

I am suprised that this got any response at all. It was just one of those things that came to my mind while re-reading Sir Gawain.

[HerenIstarion]

But Green Knight is not exactly evil, is he? He's fair, at the very least

[Joy]

Very true, H-I, but at first his character does seem evil.

Can this be the Chapel Green? Alack!” said the man, “here might the devil himself be seen saying mantins at black midnight!’”

This gives the impression of a aura of evilness around the Green Chapel and Green Knight.

BTW, I am glad to be back. I have never forgotten about you guys. This was my first Tolkien board. I have learned so much from you all.

I had to leave last year due to health again and this year have already been in the hospital 3 times (1 time for major back surgery).

I will try to stick around more this time.

[Frodo Baggins]

Green Knight aside, the color green as an evil color was a rare thing to the medievals. To them, green was susally the colour of hope and new things. It's all over Dante. In the Valley of Princes on the mount of Purgatory two angels arrayed in green (hope) descent to defend those in the valley from a great serpent that comes. And also in earthly paradase atop purgatory dance the three theological virtues, Faith, Hope, and Charity. Hope is a green lady arrayed all in green.

It hink it is, however true that any color can be representative of good or bad. Green leaves, green moss, green grass are good things, green stuff that grows on decaying things is nasty and smells. Take another colour, red. Red is the color of love and passion, perhaps even royalty (though that's usually reserved for blue and purple) but red flags have often been a symbol of no mercy. When an army raises a red flag, it dosen't mean they love thier enemies it means (usually) "We take no prisoners".

Oh, by the way, the scarf the lady gives Sir Gawain to protect him from wounds is also green.

[Frodo Baggins]

Oh speaking of blue and the Virgin Mary. There was a time that blue was the color of virginity, so that may be anotehr reason why she is seen in blue often. I have also seen paintings of her arrayed in red.