Evil things

[drigel]

Thank you heren for all the content!!

Now back to the subject. Could not the sprirts that Morgoth used to imprison or house in bodies in the 1st age be that of lesser maia, who's bodies were destroyed previously?

Could not a measure of a maia's strength or greatness be the ability to take form after his or hers body had been destroyed in battle?

[Nirvana II]

do Maiar absolutely HAVE to go back to Valinor when they die??????Even the Evil Maiar

[HerenIstarion]

I'd say they absolutely want to go to Valinor, but are not allowed to (cases - Sauron and Saruman after death, when their shapes are moving West, but are dissolved by the breeze)

[Nirvana II]

breezes of Manwe?

they had to go back to Valinor because they had to face the judgement of Manwe. i read it in either the Silm. or Unfinished Tales and i dont have the book with me so it might not be all the way right, but i do remember that they have to be judged



[Edited by moderator to remove the image - it was too large and not necessary for the discussion.]

[HerenIstarion]

they had to go back to Valinor because they had to face the judgement of Manwe.

that'd be elves. And that'd be Mandos. But even elves do not have to go to Mandos, but are going in answer to summons, though they are free to refuse and remain in ME. Not that such a refusal is not a sign of some taint of the spirit, but, nevertheless, they are free to refuse

Maiar, on the other hand, are not bound by such a summoning. Since they entered the world as part of host of the Ainur to become Valar, i.e., Powers Of The World, they are equally bound by World's history (the condition when they are allowed to enter it on terms of remaining inside it till its end). Therefore (apart from Morgoth, who was forcibly thrust out), any Maia, whose incarnate (and for becoming premanently incarnate, see One hand tied behind their backs ) body is destroyed, does not go but is left within the boundaries of the world. Besides:

Letters, L200

It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book

As a consequence, you may think of Sauron after the destruction as of ghost of a kind (and Saruman equally, for he's truly incarnate also)

Both may wish to return, but are not allowed to (hence breeze dissolving their shapes)

On the other hand, Gandalf's spirit, who remained faithfull, would go to Valinor of his own free will and be accepted. The fact he is granted with the second chance is the grace of Eru. See Wielding the Flame of Anor

[drigel]

So, any of those lesser (evil) Maias whose corporal bodies were destroyed could be then housed again, in another body by a Morgoth type? Or once the body was destroyed, was this a one shot deal?

[Nirvana II]

unless they were resurrected by the Power of Manwe (Or something like that)

[HerenIstarion]

So, any of those lesser (evil) Maias whose corporal bodies were destroyed could be then housed again

Up to a point. Depends on the original power of a spirit. In Sauron's case it amounted to several rebuildings (after Huan (dubious one that, he was not completely killed), after Numenor, after Gil-Galad and Elendil)

Power of Manwe is not ever noticed in resurrecting evil Maiar

Gandalf's case is thought to be Eru's direct intervention

[Nirvana II]

im renewing the thread...Evil things are bad......

[drigel]

I agree. And it is also book related. I am still trying to figure out how Morgoth can trap spririts of Maia whose bodies were broken. Were those spirits willing? unwilling?

If unwilling, mabye thats why they were so evil? Can this be related somehow to how orcs/trolls were created? Or was that primarily a biological event???
so many questions

[HerenIstarion]

Evil things are bad

who argues...

willing re: willing. Freedom of choice issue. Yes, continuous yelding made them more subservient, and probably by the end there was no will of their own left to resist Morgoth, but it all begun with the free choice of submitting to him

[drigel]

I love this site. If I have to slack at work, Id rather be musing on JRRT

[Nirvana II]

indeed...this is how i slack at college

[drigel]

watch those grades Nirvanna lol .. although this medium is a lot healthier than my slacking tool of choice back in the college days... burp


freewill: reading the books it seems very black and white - once a maia turns evil it stays evil. But i wonder if (during this non-copreal state) if that spirit has the freewill to choose to be trapped by Morgoth. Trapped connotes to me an unwillingness.....

so... my orc hypothesis is falling short in my mind concerning the trapping of spirits. Too many to take into account. When i read the threads, it seems the conclusion on the orc creation thing is relying mainly on a physiological platform of breeding. right?

It does seem to me that if Morgoth could trap a Maia's soul, he could easily trap an elf's soul as well.... no?

[Tharlionglin]

What about the leiutenant at the Black Gate that parleyed with Aragorn and Gandalf, the one who had Frodo and Sam's gear?

I know he is not Maier but a fallan Numenorean, but does anyone know anything else?

Did he come to ME as one of the faithful and then go bad?
Or did he turn bad in Numenor and come to ME before its destruction?
What happened to him after the War of the Ring?

I would have liked to see Gimli go em'

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Actually, the Numenoreans had set up colonies in Middle-Earth even before the Sinking of Numenor. They set up their fortress in Umbar, which is somewhere south of Gondor and Mordor, where the Haradrim lived. The Numenoreans probably mixed with the people of Harad, which have been drawn towards Sauron, and hence became Black Numenoreans...

(Gotta stop... the premises for racial discrimination is too high)

But Numenoreans aside, I am really much more interested in another group of Men which fought on the side of Evil: The Dunlendings. By all accounts, these Men are just normal men, and do not seem too evil. There was serious Bad Blood, of course, between the Rohirrim and the Dunlendings, but that was because of Land Grap. (Seriously, if Gondor was not so troubled by the East, would you think Rohan could still exist?)

Saruman deceived the Dunlendings into fighting on his side, but there was no actual account of the Dunlendings fighting alongside of Sauron. In fact, the Dunlendings were so deceived by Saruman that they thought the Rohirrim would burn them alive after they lost.

No Orcs remained alive; their bodies were uncounted. But a great many of the hillmen had given themselves up; and they were afraid, and cried for mercy.
The Men of the Mark took their weapons from them, and set them to work.
'Help now to repair the evil in which you have joined,' said Erkenbrand; 'and afterwards you shall take an oath never again to pass the Fords of Isen in arms, nor to march with the enemies of Men; and then you shall go free back to your land. For you have been deluded by Saruman. Many of you have got death as the reward of your trust in him; but had you conquered, litte better would your wages have been.'
The men of Dunland were amazed; for Saruman had told them that the men of Rohan were cruel and burned their captives alive.

But let's face it, Prof T did his best to assume the historian, and ascribed wicked deeds to not just the 'Men of the East and South'. Various dastardly deeds were also done, and not just by Men, but Dwarves and Elves. So I should say that the 'gift of men' is obscure, in that it dishes out freedom to every mortal man, but serves no justice.

[NightKnight]

Tharlionglin, the Mouth of Sauron was indeed a Black Numenorean. It is very unlikely though, that he would have lived through the entire Third Age, thus being over 3000 years old. He was probably born in the 30th century.

[HerenIstarion]

on Mouth, see Magic in Middle Earth

It is an old thread (in times where I was omitting a lot more spelling blunders), but worthy

[Nirvana II]

Originally Posted by drigel

watch those grades Nirvanna lol .. although this medium is a lot healthier than my slacking tool of choice back in the college days... burp


freewill: reading the books it seems very black and white - once a maia turns evil it stays evil. But i wonder if (during this non-copreal state) if that spirit has the freewill to choose to be trapped by Morgoth. Trapped connotes to me an unwillingness.....

so... my orc hypothesis is falling short in my mind concerning the trapping of spirits. Too many to take into account. When i read the threads, it seems the conclusion on the orc creation thing is relying mainly on a physiological platform of breeding. right?

It does seem to me that if Morgoth could trap a Maia's soul, he could easily trap an elf's soul as well.... no?

to the college comment:yeah...'cept im acin all my subjects.

to the free will: can't they purge themselves of baddness?????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????/

[Nimikôi Angarauko]

There are quite a few reasons why they didnt purge themselves of evil and indeed they do have free will. They are uneducated, being a thrall to Morgorth is all they have ever known they never knew what freedom was, and who would tell them it is hard to imagine a camp of orcs attentively listening to an elf standing on a soapbox talking about the glories of freedom and voting (hint hint: fan art). Orcs had also been told about the "cruelty" of Elves and, in an orcs mind what would be the more sensible thing to do fight and maybe win or give up and be tortured by Elves, considering they have been tortured and lied to all their existence by Morgoth. If they were to turn and fight for Elvendom and they lost you think Morgoth would have said "alright lads, you made a mistake but you seem okay now." , No, they would have been battered, beaten, bruised, and bashed mentally and pyschally, so the choice of an Orc is be tortured by Morgorth or fight for him gain, victory and spoils, kind of makes sense which road they choose. They have choice they just don't have the knowledge to make proper judgement.

P.S. My sincere apologies for any grammatical or spelling mistakes in my posts when you see any please tell me.

[HerenIstarion]

I believe you mix up orks and dunlandings there

[The Saucepan Man]

Here is rather a good thread, which touches on the thorny question of whether it is possible for Orcs to find redemption:

Inherent Evil

[Nimikôi Angarauko]

Well, the point I trying to make was that though the basic enemy forces do have free willl they do not have the knowledge to use it. This idea of an uneducated force of warriors following their master only through fear applies to both orcs and dunlandings, well at least in my opinion. Once the person is seduced to the Evil side then they become slaves, only during the initial seduction does the evil side look appealling, and once they are under the control of evil they can not leave through fear of pain, and torture by their masters and their enemies.

I hoped that cleared up my opinions concerning Evil and Evil things, My apologies if my ideas are a bit vague.

P.S. thank you for the link Sauce a very good read 'twas.

[Nirvana II]

this is unbelievably obscure now

[HerenIstarion]

Well, the point I trying to make was that though the basic enemy forces do have free willl they do not have the knowledge to use it

It may be the case IRL, but not in ME, basically. Orks (with minute possible exceptions of lesser Maiar and later Half-Men) have no free will

This idea of an uneducated force of warriors following their master only through fear applies to both orcs and dunlandings, well at least in my opinion

Fortunately, it applies only to dunlandings. (otherwise the throughout history slaughter of orks by (in that case, so called) free people would have no excuse. What's the difference between elves and orks, if both kill each other? In case elves know orks are simpletons not seeing errors of their ways?)

Your opinion is held in high esteem, but is erroneous, to the best of my knowledge. See here

cheers

[davem]

Isn't Orkish free will down to whether they have their origins in Elves or Men - which Tolkien was unsure about at the end- as only men have true free will, according to Ainulindale. Only Men are not bound by the Music, which is fate to all other creatures within Arda.

It seems then, that the role of Valar, Maiar & Elves is to actualise the Music, not to change it. The Music with its contradictory themes is being played out in Arda, but Men can (with the agreement of Illuvatar - for none can change the Music in his despite) change the Music.

Orcs decended from Elves cannot change the Music, so the extent of their freedom of action would be limited. Orcs decended from Men would have perhaps too much free will for Morgoth or Sauron (themselves unable to change the Music) to be comfortable with them as servants.

Does that make sense?

[Nimikôi Angarauko]

I remember reading somewhere that orcs are a cross-breed between elves and men, I can't quite remember where though, but like almost all things Evil there is not much conclusive evidence supporting this. Although every one makes extremely good points concerning orcs there simply is not enough evidence this way or that, all my ideas are merely speculations, but in hopes of keeping this thread alive I will bring up something else that has been troubling me for an age. There are two instances, to my knowledge, where Dragons speak and both times they are depicted with an extremely seductive power in their voice was this true with all worms or just the higher ups?

[Sharkû]

It appears to me that the question of Free Will in regard to Orcs is usually a bit different than when talking about Quendi or Men, not because there would be a fundamental difference between the two issues, but because it seems convenient to define the term in question so that it fits the perceived nature of Orcs better.
Namely, the point of debate is whether Orcs, or all Orcs vs. some, had any free will at all, or were just puppets. This does necessitate for me to go there again, but it is of course apparent that the latter was never remotely considered for Quendi or Men.

[davem]

Orcs descended from Elves would necesarally be limited by an 'Elvish' mindset, in that they would not be able to 'think outside the box' of the Music. This would be an innate thing. All but Men seem driven to attempt to bring the Music into being. There are cotending themes within the Music - introduced by Melkor, so as Orcs they would seek to actualise his themes, but could not think outside that framework. They may have some ability to use different methods to bring those themes into being, but not to come up with original themes themselves. To what extent would this constitute 'free will' as we would understand it?

Men can 'think outside the box' & bring about changes not in the Music - as long as Eru permits the change. This would make Orcs 'descended' from Men a double edged sword for Morgoth & Sauron - neither of whom have that freedom of thought or action.
The very fact that the Valar have to lay down their rule of Arda in face of the Numenoreans - who are instigating a change not foreseen in the Music - & need Eru to deal with them, changing the face of the world - implies that the Valar cannot step outside the Doom of Arda. This is possibly a reason why both they & the Elves increasingly withdraw from the World as men come to dominate. Things would become increasingly unpredictable.

So, Valar, Maiar & Elves have the freedom to choose which of the contending themes they will attempt to actualise, but not to introduce new themes. They can be judged as to their choice of pre-existing options, implying a degree of freedom, but they cannot choose anything else. The difficulty for them is the unpredictability which Men introduce by their true freedom, because Valar, Maiar & Elves cannot know what changes will occur. Hence, by the end of the Third Age, Elves (& probably Valar) are reduced to 'fighting the Long Defeat' attempting to hold onto their original, innate, vision of what the Music predicted, while the world around them is pushed by Men further & further away from what they feel it ''should' be like. In a case like this, it is understandable that the Elves would resort to the use of the Rings (its even understandable that Sauron should seek total control of the world) as with them, at least in their isolated realms, they could hold out against the changes, & keep at least their own realms in accord with the Music . Which in the end, as we see, will not work, & can only be achieved to the extent it is, by the use of the 'unnatura'l force of magic.

[HerenIstarion]

higher up dragons re:

from the Hobbit

No dragon can resist the fascination of riddling talk and of wasting time trying to understand it.

therefore, all of the dragons are likely to be 'seductive'

******
Now for davem's [fascinating and worthy, I should say] speculation

inside the box thinking re: I would rather say that neither Men can think outside the box, (i.e. Music), since the Music is everything there is (for everybody else inside Arda and for Men at least before they die). Men (and Elves likewise) do not bring change into Music, they are the change in the Music, i.e. new theme of it, brought about by Eru. Therefore, the real change is in the hands of Eru, and all else are but His instruments.

so,

by davem

to introduce new themes

applies to none but Eru

The statement above, thogh seemingly doing it, does not eliminate the freedom of will:

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

reposted from here (thread The Halls of Mandos and Elvish Free Will, in case you are curios as why there is such a mental picture suggested)

Mental picture of a man looking upon a rope stratched on the table. Both, table(space) and rope(time), are made by man(God), but man(God) is not bound to be inside each. The picture is lame for if any ant (human, elf) was to move along the rope, it would imply some passage of time by itself. But if there was no time for a man (God)(and there, in fact, is no) than he would be able to see an ant (human, elf) at any given moment of it’s progress along the rope (time). Neither it means that watching ant crawling along the line is somehow influencing it’s progress, i e predestining it. Yet, if talking about fate and free will, add to the your mental picture two more elements – lumps of sugar and drops of orange juice, placed by man (God) simultaneously along the rope (time). Now imagine ant (human, elf) having moral code – eating sugar is sinful, drinking juice is righteous. That placement gives you fate. Suppose red ants (elves) and black ants (humans) have different conditions crawling along the same rope. For the red ones there is fate – sugar and juice placed along the way. Black ones simply don’t sense those, or sense them only if travelling in company of red ones. Red ants’ (elves) free will is expressed in the choice – eat sugar, and therefore sin, or abstinate from it and be righteous. Red ants are unable to leave the rope, black ones are free to stray. Here it is, free will, “omnitemporalness” of God and fate.

Therefore, there is no such thing as true freedom of men before they die and go whither elves know not. But than, whilst alive, (and after a point in the Vision which was denied Valar by Eru) they have as much knowledge of 'what changes will occur' as elves do (or even less so, thanks to greater experience and wisdom of elves and valar). They just live, as it is (you made it sound as if humans were consciously working on changes to push the world further from elves)

unnatural magic re: as I was trying to drive home elswhere (thread Acceptance of Mythology), no magic in ME is unnatural, since, if it is inside Arda, and , therefore, inside Nature, it is natural (expression of bearers inherent abilities, that is, which may look to the ignorant as something unnatural (c.f. Galadriel/Samwise conversation about elvish magic)

[davem]

But Ainlindale states that Men are not bound by the Music, which is as fate to all things else. Illuvatar states that none may change the Music in his despite - not that none may change the Music at all. It can be changed, by Men (which probably accounts for Sauron's fear of Aragorn the Man, who has a freedom he himself does not have). This is our Hope in the world, a faint one admittedly, but real. Men can introduce change, if Eru agrees. The alternative makes the world a program which we are simply part of, & denies us freedom, & takes away our responsibility.

As to magic, well, Galadriel speaks of the deceits of the Enemy. Whether Magic is 'natural' is a vexed question. The various non human races have abilities, but could they be considered 'magic'? Magic as I understand it, is aquired supernatural power, as opposed to innate abilities, so I would say that Galadriel does not use Magic to operate her Mirror, but she does use Magic when she wields Nenya, because that power is not innate. Magic is any power which Eru has not given you or natural to you. The Rings ultimately have their origin in the mind of Sauron. Magic could be said to be natural on one level - it does exist in M.E., but that does not mean that all use of it is good or acceptable. It can be misused. The Magic of the Elven Rings is misused. Let's say that within ME, Magic properly used, is natural, & if misused, unnatural - ie, against the nature of the individual using it.

[HerenIstarion]

Men are not bound by the Music, which is as fate to all things else

Fairly so. But what I was trying to bring your attention to is omniscience and omnipotence of Eru, so, as the Music was sung before time (cf. Silmarillions 'in Eru's halls before time'), all possible future changes in it subsequent to freedom of Men are already sung (in a way, from the point of view of a person inside time, and, at the same (I wanted to say time, but than, what with observer being outside time, the word looses a lot of its meaning, so at the same whatever it is) it may be still going on for the observer outside time. Valar are not omniscient, and they haven't seen all of it, that's all. But, as it is seen from the quote you give, nobody can change Music despite Eru, so, logically chaining it all, it may be concluded that:

When Music is changed by means of a man, it is Eru who changes it, using the person as a tool

Why the statement (and being Eru's tool) does not eliminate Man's freedom [of choice] I've tried to illustrate in my previous

Gandalf is Eru's tool, for he is urged to take Bilbo along on the adventure, and Bilbo is tool, for he miraculously finds the ring, but they have choice nevertheless. Gandalf could have gone drinking beer in Bree instead of having pains of ushering grocer-like Bilbo on to form a coven with dwarves, and persuading Thorin to take hobbit along

Besides, (for even for 'bound-by-fate' elves there always is freedom of choice) the main expression (so to say, medium) of Man's freedom is his death, when he is entitled to leave boundaries of Arda

Magic re:

Magic could be said to be natural on one level - it does exist in M.E., but that does not mean that all use of it is good or acceptable.

Exactly. You mistake my underlying implications, it seems. When I was stating the magic of M.E. to be natural, I did not mean by that that therefore it has to be good. Natural does no equal acceptable for me, it equals 'what is contained in Nature'. The following reasoning is applicable:

When Eru said Ea, he created nature (i.e. place of space and time, i.e. Arda). Anything what happens inside created nature once it starts to tick away, and is not brought into it from outside, is natural. Hence, Valar, which are part of the Nature (Powers of the World) from the beginning of it, are not to be viewed as powers from outside the Nature, therefore whatever magic/power they use, is not supernatural. Equally, Elves, using their innate abilities, even when they create artefacts like rings of power, impose upon artefacts of the kind what is natural to them, therefore their magic is not supernatural as well (hence the Galadriel's statements about 'arts')
Do you consider using of a bow to be expression of supernatural power? Truly, bits of wood and string are not 'natural' parts of human body, as it is. Extend a principle a bit more, and you get the rings of power (or nuclear bomb, or whatever)

The ends to which natural means are used, is therefore entirely different subject. (as good sight and sure hand maybe used to kill dragons in one case and to shoot Isildur in another, but good sight and sure hand are beyond good/evaluation in themselves, being part of natural abilities, kind of 'what is given')

Now what is supernatural, comes usually directly from Eru and is woven into nature already operating, and should be qualified as miracle - i.e., determined intervention into the flow of natural events from outside the nature with the intention to alter them. So, Numenor's sinking is supernatural event, likewise [it is hinted that] finding of the ring by Bilbo, whilst all the application of magic is natural

I may go on into arguing that even 'miracles' (i.e. interventions from outside, un/supernatural), in a way are natural too, for they come:

A) From the same source as nature comes from
B) Are embodied into events inherent to Nature (so, Numenor is not toppled over by corporeal Eru with an enormous spade, but is swept over with a tide. And tide is natural event)

But that is another subject

Up to a forth age, even 'black' magic is natural, for Sauron is equally part of Nature, though Morgoth be cast outside. And even afterwards, as all the matter in Arda is tainted and contains part of Morgoth, those to draw their power from that kind of source, are in a twisted way, using 'natural' (in a sense, parts of nature) abilities.

In Arda Remade, therefore, there will be no place for 'black' magic, for its sources there will be no more, but still more ground for 'good' magic, with the exploitation of Children's 'innate abilities

It seems to me that all the talk of unnatural is caused by our modern disposition towards Magic (as something opposed to science), but for M.E the terms are interchangable. Elves and Maiar are around for sufficiently long time to have enough of it and learn to use their innate, natural abilities to the extent is seems unnatural to Men

[davem]

I love these really abstruse debates!

Eru states that none may change the music in his despite - not that none may change the Music at all. Men are not bound by the Music. If Men had no freedom to change it they too would, knowingly or unknowingly, also be bound by it. The Music is not as fate to them. they can change it - if Eru agrees. I see the Fate of Numenor as being the classic example. The Valar constantly send messages to the Numenoreans, effectively asking them to stick within the bounds set by the Music, & the Numenoreans reject those pleas. The very fact that the Valar have to lay down their rulership & let Eru deal with the Numenoreans says to me that the Numenor thing was not in the Music, & came as a total shock to the Valar. The changing of the world was not forseen in the Music - Men introduced that change - though it wasn't the change they intended to bring about.

Thing is, I can't see Tolkien creating a world where true free will did not exist - at least for Men. It would be heretical - & while we have to be careful of Allegorical interpretations, we do know that he made every attempt to avoid anything which would directly contradict Christian teaching. Taking the Beowulf lecture as a key to understanding his approach, on one level we have to see the whole legendarium as the story of Man in a world of natural & supernatural forces, striving to live out his life, while the light lasts - those forces may not have freedom, but Men do, & so Men can be judged & held responsible, because Men have freedom.

Well, a bow is not a magical implement, & neither is a nuclear bomb - even in Middle Earth a distinction would be made between using a bow & using a ring of Power - in that any fool can use a bow!. To use, rather than be used by, a Ring of power takes a certain type of person -to be considered natural an ability, rule or force must apply to must apply to everyone. If only certain individuals posess an ability it is not 'normal' because its not the 'norm'. Magic is natural but not normal in ME.

The question then arises as to whether we can speak of this 'natural' force as having a 'nature', so that it could be used in a way that was against its own nature - but if its simply a force, then that doesn't apply. If its a force used by an individual then its a question of whether that individual is behaving according to their true nature when they use Magic - & the same would be true if we are talking about individuals using magic or any other force - even a bow - is the individual acting out of their own nature, or against it?

[HerenIstarion]

Free will re:

Eru states that none may change the music in his despite - not that none may change the Music at all. Men are not bound by the Music. If Men had no freedom to change it they too would, knowingly or unknowingly, also be bound by it.

um. I reckon you missed my point. I was driving at total freedom of Men yet already contained in the Music, for Music contains everything. Men leave boundaries of Arda and go out of the Music when they die, but while they live, they are inside Music, and whatever change they may bring about is already in it (from eru's point of view at least, for He is omniscient). Why such a thing does not eliminate their, once again, total freedom, is [crudely] given mental image to above

Thing is, I can't see Tolkien creating a world where true free will did not exist - at least for Men

No need to hurt one's eyes , for both elves and men are given free will. Thing is, it is defined by the Music, not forced by it.

Magic re:

If only certain individuals posess an ability it is not 'normal' because its not the 'norm'

As far as I may judge, there is no such a thing as norm. Let us suppose, I'm bad at poetry, but I'm good at cookery, whilst some other chap may be my opposite. Than I will be more agile and skilled with pan than with pen, and, even though we both can be tought each other's crafts, the point is in gift, and he will never make omelets of the refined taste I'm able of contriving, while my sonnets will never acquire such a flavour as his may boast of.

That is what is given. But what counts is application. If I use my omelets to throw at people and hurt them, and he his sonnets to inspire bloodshed and intolerance or whatever, we both are misapplying our natural abilities to achieve improper ends. And while omelets and sonnets are not bad things in themselves, we give them bad name in the case

is the individual acting out of their own nature, or against it?

I should rather say, as with gift to cook omelets and write sonnets, person's nature is what is given him/her (what with all matter of Arda already Marred by Morgoth). What he/she does with it is what counts. And to measure propriety of actions against there is a moral law, which is expressed with Tolkien as follows:

by Aragorn

'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'

by Hama

'Yet in doubt a man of worth will trust to his own wisdom

[davem]

And yet, freedom to change the Music is implied by Eru's statement that none may change the Music in his despite. He will allow changes to be made, if he permits it. If the fall of Numenor is not in the Music - which I don't think it is - Eru has permittted a change to occur - though not the one the Numenoreans desired or foresaw. The Music is then following a different course because of Men's actions, which were not part of the Music. We note that Eru didn't take away the Numenorean's freedom to assail Valinor, merely changed the result of that act. Of course Men cannot make a change which Eru does not permit - he could hurl a thunderbolt - but he has given Men the freedom to act outside the doom of the Music. Elves, Valar & Maiar can choose which of the themes they will attempt to bring into being - Eru's/the Valar's or Melkor's, but the Music is a fate to them. Men are not bound to choose either, Though within the World determined & defined by the Music, they are limited in what choices they can make - natural laws - however extensive those laws may be, will limit how far outside the box they can think & act, but it does not set a limit on their freedom or fate - which lies outside Arda anyway. It is one with this freedom that they remain only a little time within the world. Without one race who can act beyond the confines of the Music, there would not be much point in Arda having a physical existence at all, & everything could have been sorted out in Heaven, without all the pain & messiness.

I take your point on magic, but the 'Norm' in ME is not Magic, as most people can't do it. Those who can are rare, & their 'skill' in using it is limited & defined by whatever talents Eru has given them. So, if some beings can perform what we would call 'magical' acts, then actually it isn't magic, it is innate, natural ability. So, 'magick' in the sense that Magicans use the term is something 'unnatural', against their nature, & against Eru's will - who could/would have given them whatever abilities he felt they needed or had a right to. To take more power/magical ability than Eru has gifted them with, is to go against not only His will, but against their own nature. Saruman 'falls' because he is seduced into desiring & amassing power which he has no right to. In other words, he's not 'bad' because he can do magic, but because the magic he's doing in not part of his nature - so 'unnatural'. In that sense he is a magician, while Gandalf is not - even the Ring is given to him in order to help him in his task - so he doesn't 'take' it, & he only uses it in the course of performing the task he is sent to do. Saruman not only takes power he which is not natural to him, he rejects the task he was sent to perform, & takes on another task which is not his.

[Nirvana II]

ok, in the Music Iluvatar gives freedom, life, and a place to live for everything right?????So that includes freedom of choice.........i think

[HerenIstarion]

Since we keep on repeating the same points all over with different wording, I'll try to pinpoint it all:

Changes in the Music (or freedom):

1. H-I - changes are allowed, but already contained in the Music all along, though fully percieved as such by Eru alone. All races of free will (Elves, Men and even Valar, though the latter are more bound by what each of them was singing before time), have freedom of choice in a likewise manner. Men's different freedom is mainly expressed in a way they die. Everything which happens within Arda is already in the Music. New things are brought into it by Eru, but are seen as new by His creatures, for Eru is omniscient and was aware of Himself going to put them in all along (even when he uses some creature as his tools)

2. davem - changes are allowed, and are totally new to the Music. Only Men are allowed to bring such a change about, whilst Valar and Eldar have only freedom of choice between different threads of the Music, which they aknowledge as threads of the Music and consciously choose between. Not everything which happens within Arda is already in the Music. Men (directly or indirectly, when, for instance, they force Eru to destroy Numenor) bring new things into it

If I has expressed your opinions erroneously, pray correct.

Well, opinions are similar in some ways, but there are differences as well. Why I believe my statements to be true as opposed to yours is as follows:

1. Elves and Men are in themselves the change in Music. The mere fact of their existence is change in itself

2. There is no textual evidence of conscious distinction made by Elves (like, hey, this oboe theme is more to my taste than that fiddle, let us follow it). They make their decisions according to their own wisdom, which is measured against standards equal for both Men and Elves. (see quote above)

3. There is no textual evidence of Valar conscious distinction after the Music is over. It is stated they 'just' sang along, and only after the were shown the vision, with a kind of an eye-opener the knew what they were singing was the World. Afterwards, they, just as elves and men, act according to their own wisdom (for instance, when Aule makes dwarves, or when Iavanna asks for Ents, realisation of "it must have been part of my song all along" comes only after the deed itself)

4. There is no textual evidence of conscious distinction by Men, or aknowledging something like "oh, some drum solo would suit in this score nicely", they equally act according to their own wisdom

5. For entries 2-4,a s a summary - the way judgement is made is similar in all three cases, so logically extending it a bit, one has to conclude the kind of freedom each of the races posses are similar as well. The standard of Good and Evil they measure their choices against is one and the same (see quote above)

6. It is stated that Man and Elves are brethren, (even bodily the same, so the intercourse brings children), the only difference is made by Gift of Eru - i.e. Death, which frees Men from the confines of the world. i.e, inverting the statement, while they are alive, they are equally bound by confines of the world as elves are

7. Eru is stated to be the cause, and all else consequence. In case Men were able of bringing new things into being, the maxim is inverted (for instance, in case of Numenor), and Men are cause and Eru consequence, which is likewise never backed up by textual evidence (and, as far as my judgement reaches, impossible to be put into "consciously so [Christian- H-I] in the revision" piece of work


Now for Magic

H-I Magic (given such a name by ignorant, but not by the bearer him/herself) is part of innate abilities of some of M.E. inhabitants. As an ability it is neither good or bad in itself, but part of bearer's neture. Nature, in itself, is also neither good or bad in itself. "magical" character is defined as good or bad because of application he/she makes of his/her nature and abilities. As above, they have to be measured against uniform standard of Good and Evil, and if not in accordance with good, they are evil, still staying the part of bearer's nature

davem Magic is part of innate abilities of some of M.E. inhabitants. As an ability, it must be in accordance with bearer's nature, which is good. Bearer must conform the application of his abilities with his good-in-itself nature, otherwise he/she is evil.


Why do I believe my statement to express the truth:

1. It is stated the all matter is Arda is Marred, for Morgoth have put forward part of his will into it. Therefore, all the incarnates have their Nature tainted from the very beginning of their existence

2. Both kindreds of Children (Elves and Man) have committed Original Sin in the dawn of their history, which affected their Nature in the drastic way making it even less perfect to start with then it would have been if merely tainted by Morgoth element in its matter

3. If by Nature you meant their souls only, it is to be added that both elves and men percieved their true nature as union of the two (body (hroa) and soul (fëa)), and the body is not perfect to begin with

4 Not incarnate beings (such as Valar and Maiar), which do not have tainted bodies to begin with, so, it is to be assumed, their nature is perfect, are capable of becoming Evil. If their Nature be dominant factor of their actions, that would have been impossible. Therefore, again, what defines the being as good or evil, is its actions as measured agains standard of Good and Evil (given by Eru), and such a measurement is not nature in itself, but act of will.

To have a conclusion on both issues together:

The whole being of the World is defined by Music (and is material expression of one). Therefore, anything which is in the World (including any changes occurring), is bound to be part of the Music. Music (and Being) ultimately have their source in Eru, who, thus, is the cause of everything. Eru is omniscient, so anything in the Music (and the World) is not only caused, but also known by Him. The novelty is in the eye of the beholder.

Part of the Music (and the World) is moral code of Good and Evil, which is essential part of Freedom given by Eru to certain type of his creatures. (those to have souls (fëar) of Flame Imperishable) They are free in a way that they can choose either to conform to the standard or not (i.e either to obey Him or not). The act of choosing is act of will, further expressed in their actions.

Besides, all but Men are bound to exist only within the Music (World) until it lasts. Men are given the Gift of leaving it when parted with their bodies (i.e., when dying). While inside, they are bound by the same rules as everybody else

The World, as expression of the Music, is given being, and may be called Nature. Magic, as part of the World (and therefore Music, and therefore Nature), is innate ability, but as it is with all other abilities, is expressed on different levels with different individuals. As any other ability, it is not Good or Bad in itself, but can be used in a way not in accordance with the standard of Good and Evil (as everythig else natural, as it is). Therefore, as everything else, it may be used to express Freedom given by Eru, and to be Good or Evil

That is, more or less

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

...but [the Atani] should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the music of the Ainur, which is fate to all things else.

(The Silmarillion 1 - emphasis mine)

Think Physics: If I apply force to a particle(Elves and Arda-bound Ainur), they move in a certain direction in accordance to Newton's laws of motions(the Music of the Ainur). A nonparticle - gas, for example(Men) do not adhere to the said law. Even though the force applied(the powers and the chances of the world) is already governed by Newton's laws, its effect on the gas is not. They could move in whatever direction, no matter how many forces you apply to force them into a direction you desire.

It's not the Music that Men change, it's how they react to what the Music has made. Case in point: Ar-Pharazôn's assault of Valinor. Sauron acts the way he is in Númenor because it was ordained by the Music. The Valar warning the Númenóreans is of the same nature. However, Ar-Pharazôn could have chosen not to attack Valinor, continue with the assault, or even conquer Middle-earth regardless of everything else that happens. That's the freedom of Men.

I'm not speaking about the nature of magic...well...except for this.

(so, Numenor is not toppled over by corporeal Eru with an enormous spade, but is swept over with a tide. And tide is natural event)

Yes, but the rift that caused the said tide was not natural - no other reports of giant rifts that swallowed islands were ever heard of in Middle-earth.

[HerenIstarion]

Well, good expamle, I should say, but I have to disagree nevertheless

Newtons' law is about how particles behave It does not tell you if particles have to make a choice when behaving that way (if you put your finger down on it). Now the Music is what the World is. "Beyond the Music" in a quote provided indicates exactly what it does - that Men leave the World after they die, ability not given to the Valar (Powers of the World) and Eldar (bound to last until the World lasts)

Tide re: I do believe if the modern seismologists were present, they would discover the causes to be perfectly 'natural' (something like move of teutonic slabs or whatever). and nothig to do with actions of Men whatsoever. The explanation now is in the mind of the beholder. With Eru being the cause of everything, there, in fact, is no need to have a spade, after all.