Revelations and Realizations

[galadriel'smaiden]

Wow. I should visit my own threads more often. (smiley use excuse)

Kransha and Finwe-

Can we revisit the Faramir/Boromir/Imrahil thing? I am still way confused on thier relationship.

[Fingolfin II]

Imrahil's sister Finduilas is the mother of Faramir and Boromir- thus Imrahil is their uncle. He is also Eowyn's uncle-in-law (as she married Faramir).

Imrahil's daughter Lothiriel married Eomer, making Imrahil Eomer's father-in-law. Faramir is Eomer's brother-in-law, since he married his sister, Eowyn.

Here's a rough family tree below, including only Denethor, Faramir, Boromir, Imrahil, Lothiriel, Finduilas, Eomer and Eowyn. Oh, and it also contains Imrahil's father, Adrahil . Don't mind the dots- they're just there to space it out properly.

............................................Adrahil
......................................._____|_____ _
......................................|........... .......|
..............................Imrahil.............Finduilas = Denethor
..................................|............... ............____|____
..................................|............... ...........|.............|
...........................Lothiriel = Eomer*..Boromir....Faramir = Eowyn*


*Denotes that Eomer and Eowyn are brother and sister.

[Bombadil]

I realized the other day, and mentioned it on the defective weapons thread, that if Frodo had not been healed from being stabbed form the witchking, there'd be 9 huge scary Nazgul, and one little hobbit in a black cloak running around. How funny!

[galadriel'smaiden]

Bombadil, there was a whole thread on that very subject in Middle Earth Mirth! I made it very uncool with one stupid post though...

[Bombadil]

Oops! How silly of me, I shall look it up!

[Lobelia]

Originally Posted by Bombadil

I realized the other day, and mentioned it on the defective weapons thread, that if Frodo had not been healed from being stabbed form the witchking, there'd be 9 huge scary Nazgul, and one little hobbit in a black cloak running around. How funny!

Chuckle! Amusing idea, the mind boggles ... but I vaguely recall Frodo being told that what would have happened would be that Frodo would be stuck in Sauron's presence being tormented by having to watch Sauron wearing the Ring.

Or maybe he'd have set up house wioth Gollum.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

'The Shibboleth of Fëanor', note 53:

When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwë, Finwë, and Olwe and Elwë were united and alone preserved in Middle-earth.

[As is said in the text at this point Arwen was descended from Finwë both in the line of Fingolfin (through Elrond) and in the line of Finarfin (through Celebrían); but she was also descended from Elwë (Thingol) through Elrond's mother Elwing, and through Galadriel's mother Eärwen from Olwë of Alqualondë. She was not directly descended from Ingwë, but her fore-mother Indis was (in earlier texts) the sister of Ingwë (X.261-2, etc.), or (in the present work, p. 343) the daughter of his sister. It is hard to know what my father had in mind when he wrote the opening of this note.]

[Aredhel]

Bombadil wrote:

I realized the other day, and mentioned it on the defective weapons thread, that if Frodo had not been healed from being stabbed form the witchking, there'd be 9 huge scary Nazgul, and one little hobbit in a black cloak running around. How funny!

Yep, that would have been just a bit hillarious!
But consider this:
What if Aragorn had not been so strong, and had taken up carrying the Ring itself?
Or what if Aragorn's true lineage had come out earlier - and he had been the one stabbed? Certainly as a Nazgul he would have been formidable!
I shiver to think of the horror that would have followed.

[ninlaith]

I just want to send something out into the void. Most think that it was J.K Rowling who came up with the black cloaked deamons and certain phrases but it was really....wait can you guess...YES! It was Tolkien. Many think J.K's dementors inspired the ringwraiths.....please.....look at the years between the books publishings and who came first, we're talking decades here. And the phrase "Something wicked this way comes!" Yeah that was Tolkiens as well. J.K deserves credit for her accomplishments, however, it is possible for writers to be inspired by other writers.

[Guinevere]

I am sure no one in this forum would think that, ninlaith!

"Something wicked this way comes!" I thought that was Shakespeare! (Macbeth)
And where in Tolkien's work did you find that phrase, pray ?

[Bombadil]

I believe that is Macbeth. Ironic it is too, for the witches say it about Macbeth.

[ninlaith]

oh don't get me wrong it was in that English play ,however, it was said by Sam in one of the last chapters of ROTK I can't remember for the life of me which but i remember thinking wait...that song in Harry Potter said that...sorry I just have alot of friends who like Harry Potter and choose to pick a fight about who was the better author and who said what first.......sorry. oh well everyone else wins i lose.

[Bombadil]

That's cool, I didn't know it was used in LOTR. Oi, I don't think you can compare the two authors. J.K. Rowling's books give me a different sort of thrill, one so different than what I get from Tolkien's books, it's easy to find those who are fans of one and not the other.

[ninlaith]

That's a very good point. I'll warrant there's only one person I know that doesn't like LOTR much but that's because he hasn't read the books yet. And basically that's what most people say but everyone else I know loves both. And they do spark different sort of enchantments on the mind.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

The phrase 'something wicked this way comes' is not in LOTR. I did a search.

[Lobelia]

Originally Posted by Bombadil

I believe that is Macbeth. Ironic it is too, for the witches say it about Macbeth.

Quite right! To be precise, "By the pricking of my thumbs/Something wicked this way comes."

As for JKR and the phrase, it wasn't even in the novel, only part of a choral piece in the film, based on the Shakespeare text.

Tolkien didn't even LIKE Shakespeare and he felt right cheated by Macbeth, especially the Birnam Wood business, which, as we know, was one of the reasons for the Ents, i.e. what if Birnam Wood really did come to Dunsinane? I am quite sure he would have been offended at the notion that he had a character quote from the Bard!

[The Saucepan Man]

Tolkien didn't even LIKE Shakespeare and he felt right cheated by Macbeth, especially the Birnam Wood business, which, as we know, was one of the reasons for the Ents, i.e. what if Birnam Wood really did come to Dunsinane?

I am not sure that Tolkien had a wholesale dislike of Shakespeare, although the line from Macbeth which you refer to certainly irked him and was the inspiration for the Ents' march on Isengard.

Whatever feelings he may have had with regard to Shakespeare's works, however, it didn't stop him nicking and adapting for Aragorn the "All that glisters is not gold" line from Merchant of Venice.

[ninlaith]

It's in there. I'm sure you read all three books word for word in the last 24 hours.

[Guinevere]

it didn't stop him nicking and adapting for Aragorn the "All that glisters is not gold" line from Merchant of Venice.

Now that is just a common, widespread proverb, so you can't say Tolkien quoted Shakespeare when he used it! (and he turned it around: "all that is gold does not glitter"!)

And apropos the witches in Macbeth: in "On Fairy-stories" Tolkien wrote that he thought them tolerable when just reading the play, but on stage he didn't approve of them at all! (And he did write about Shakespeare "Which I disliked cordially" in letter 163)

I am quite sure he did not use that phrase! I'm fairly certain I would have noticed and not forgotten about it. (If I think of all the "proverbs" and wise sayings I collected... Have a look at the quotable quotes, ninlaith, you can see that there are people here who do remember lots of sentences literally!)

[Lalaith]

Ninlaith, it is also quite easy to do a quick and comprehensive search of LotR if you have a pdf copy of it on your computer desktop...*whistles nonchalantly*

[The Saucepan Man]

Now that is just a common, widespread proverb, so you can't say Tolkien quoted Shakespeare when he used it!

I'm not saying that Shakespeare didn't nick it himself.

Courtesy of Google:

"All that glitters is not gold" is from Parabolae, a book of poems written circa 1175 by Alanus de Insulis, a French monk: Non teneas aurum totum quod splendet ut aurum = "Do not hold as gold all that shines like gold". It was Englished [sic] by Chaucer in The Canterbury Tales (1389) as: "But al thyng which that shyneth as the gold /Nis nat gold, as that I have herd it told." (Shakespeare used the wording "All that glisters is not gold" in The Merchant of Venice; "glister", an archaic variant of "glisten", is still sometimes heard in allusion to this.)

[ninlaith]

so it would fit into his linguistic temperments he phrased it something wicked comes this way. why would i say it was in there if I hadn't seen something like it and I would know I would be dealing with people that knew about his writings as well. that would just be calling for dispute. But I'm done. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. I lose everyone else wins.

[Bombadil]

Not to go off topic, but I've always wanted to start a thread comparing elements of Macbeth to the LOTR. Please let me know if there already have been discussons. one of the obvious main themes in Macbeth is "Fair is foul, and foul is fair." In the chapter Strider, it is said:

'I think one of his spies would-well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.'

That's almost direct! But it's also seen in many instances in Tolkien's writings, i.e. when Morgoth deceives the Eldar in Aman, and when Sauron does the same to the Numenoreans. Deception is the name of the game. The idea of power bringing corruption is another theme of Macbeth, but one that had existed long before in stories like the Republic by Plato.

Had to throw that in there, but to get back on topic: My friend told me last night that Legolas was originally one of Gondolin? And that he saved Eärendil? If this information is true, it's kind of odd to look at the council of Elrond and know Elrond wouldn't be there if it weren't for that elf with the bow!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Bombadil, here's a thread comparing LotR and Macbeth: Glamis? Cawdor? A bookworm's musings

As to Legolas of Gondolin, that appears to be a recycled name, since it cannot be the same person. For more information, please do a search using 'Legolas' and 'Gondolin' - you should find discussions by the experts there.

[Mithalwen]

To go back a little bit the linking between the Rohan royal family and the House of Dol Amroth is even more convoluted thing is even more convoluted since in addition to the first cousins Faramir and Lothiriel marrying the siblings Eowyn and Eomer which would have made their children first and second cousins!!! Eowyn and Eomer were already akin to Imrahil because their grandmother Morwen of Lossarnach was despite her title a descendent of a Prince of Dol Amroth. Maybe a sister or aunt of Adrahil married teh lord of Lossarnach ....... you just hope they opened this up a bit before the noble visages of the Swan princes were afflicted by a Hapsburg jaw.....

[ninlaith]

I realized something the other day. In Dante's Inferno there are 9 rings of Hell. There are 9 ring wraiths. Also in The Inferno when Dante went to met the big guy in the sky and the big JC and the mother their radiant light was so blinding and moving that it brought tears to his eyes. Much like Galadriel and Celebor's entrance. I just thought it was cool. They may not have anything to do with each other. It's just neat.

[Lobelia]

Originally Posted by Bombadil

d:




Had to throw that in there, but to get back on topic: My friend told me last night that Legolas was originally one of Gondolin? And that he saved Eärendil? If this information is true, it's kind of odd to look at the council of Elrond and know Elrond wouldn't be there if it weren't for that elf with the bow!

I vaguely recall something about a Legolas in Gondolin ; my guess is that he just re-used the name and forgot he'd done it, but in one of the HOME books there was suggested a possibility of a reincarnation, since that's what happens to Elves who get killed. In this life, though, he's the son of the King of Mirkwood, and couldn't possibly have been in Gondolin.

[Morsul the Dark]

my great discovery sam and rosie had 13 children

[InklingElf]

Originally Posted by ninlaith

I just want to send something out into the void. Most think that it was J.K Rowling who came up with the black cloaked deamons and certain phrases but it was really....wait can you guess...YES! It was Tolkien. Many think J.K's dementors inspired the ringwraiths.....please.....look at the years between the books publishings and who came first, we're talking decades here. And the phrase "Something wicked this way comes!" Yeah that was Tolkiens as well. J.K deserves credit for her accomplishments, however, it is possible for writers to be inspired by other writers.

who is "most" ninlaith? I think alot of people -- well the ones who are time-concious esp. would disprove of such an idea.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

To go back a little bit the linking between the Rohan royal family and the House of Dol Amroth is even more convoluted thing is even more convoluted since in addition to the first cousins Faramir and Lothiriel marrying the siblings Eowyn and Eomer which would have made their children first and second cousins!!! Eowyn and Eomer were already akin to Imrahil because their grandmother Morwen of Lossarnach was despite her title a descendent of a Prince of Dol Amroth. Maybe a sister or aunt of Adrahil married teh lord of Lossarnach ....... you just hope they opened this up a bit before the noble visages of the Swan princes were afflicted by a Hapsburg jaw.....

YES!