Family Tree Trivia

[Morsul the Dark]

I can’t think of an exact moment this type of phrase would come up but there’s lots of references to Gandalf and Saruman looking very much alike.

[Galadriel55]

Gandalf and Saruman are not the right pair, though they do look alike.


Some hints, and more to come if needed.
1. This quote is from LOTR.
2. The speculation is done by a hobbit, about two non-hobbits.

[Urwen]

Maybe Pippin, about Beregond and Faramir, maybe?


(Also, LOTR has three books)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Maybe Pippin, about Beregond and Faramir, maybe?

Beregond and Faramir are not the right pair.

Keep in mind too that there is a passage that has the speculation in it very explicitly. I cannot recall from memory, but I don't believe Pippin ever suggests Beregond and Faramir are related.

[Urwen]

Neither can I. LOTR has three books, and each book is split into two more books...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Neither can I. LOTR has three books, and each book is split into two more books...

Well, and all of the legendarium is many more books than that, shall we count how many you now don't have to consider?

All of the characters involved are major characters (ie not some obscure Brandibuff Bobbins at Bilbo's party or something like that). I will tell you that this speculation is said out loud, not just thought in the narration. Said by a hobbit, about two non-hobbits (also major characters).

And if I give you any more info right now, in return I would be asking for you to quote the exact passage instead of just paraphrasing the event.

[Urwen]

Okay. I will give the others until morning to make some guesses before I start guessing in earnest.

[Morsul the Dark]

There’s something rattling around in my head so they’re mistaken for kin... I feel like Faramir is compared to Gandalf at some point but I don’t think it amounts to thinking kinship.

But something else. Aragorn and one of the men of Gondor Boromir? At Rivendell? By frodo

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

There’s something rattling around in my head so they’re mistaken for kin... I feel like Faramir is compared to Gandalf at some point but I don’t think it amounts to thinking kinship.

Sam tells Faramir at Henneth Annun that he reminds him of Gandalf, but I do not believe he ever implies kinship.

Originally Posted by Morsul

But something else. Aragorn and one of the men of Gondor Boromir? At Rivendell? By frodo

They are said to look alike on more than one occasion, I think, but again I can't recall any instance of implied kinship. It should go without saying, but if you provide a quote that proves me wrong, I would accept it as an alternative answer.


I suppose to make you focus less on all the people who look alike - these two don't actually look alike. Their physical appearances are described quite differently.

[Morsul the Dark]

That’s good to know, I don’t think I’ll have the answer I’m more brainstorming and hoping it sparks the answer in someone else’s mind.

[Huinesoron]

This is a really good one. I find it fascinating that you've got such a specific spoken quote in mind, and yet none of us can remember it existing.

I shall have to go digging. (Wonder how fast I can reread all of LOTR...)

hS

[Urwen]

Found it.

Pippin remained behind. 'Was there ever any one like him?' he said. 'Except Gandalf, of course. I think they must be related.

Aragorn and Gandalf.

[Galadriel55]

There you go.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

This is a really good one. I find it fascinating that you've got such a specific spoken quote in mind, and yet none of us can remember it existing.

You know, I wonder if it has anything to do with the mindset in which we read it. As a post-Silm read, that quote slips your mind like a silly hobbit inanity, typical Pippin. But the pre-Silm me was fascinated with it, because I was much closer to Pippin's level of knowledge and it seemed a legitimate proposal. I mean, we barely know anything about who Gandalf is just from the LOTR texts! I spent hours wondering who he could be, and what makes a wizard.

So this made me realize something too. Though The Sil and LOTR interact a lot, for them to keep their own magic they must also be separated from each other every now and again. Reading The Sil with the eyes of LOTR takes away from the grandiosity and the desperation, and reading LOTR with the eyes of The Sil takes away from the magic and the mystery.

Though, just to be sure, I did skim The Sil for mentions of Gandalf just to make sure he wasn't related to Melian. While they are said to haunt Lorien together, I didn't see anything that implied brother/sister.

Sorry, that was a bit of a tangential ramble. Back to you, Urwen.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Found it.



Aragorn and Gandalf.

Of Course! I knew I was circling it but couldn’t quite get there well done!

[Urwen]

A simpler one, maybe.


Which two family members' actions lead to the downfall of two separate settlements?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Which two family members' actions lead to the downfall of two separate settlements?

I will start with the simple guesses. Maedhros and Maglor? Among other things destroyed both Doriath and the Havens at the Mouths of Sirion.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I will start with the simple guesses. Maedhros and Maglor? Among other things destroyed both Doriath and the Havens at the Mouths of Sirion.

Not who I was thinking of.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

A simpler one, maybe.

Which two family members' actions lead to the downfall of two separate settlements?

Hurin and Turin? Turin brought down Nargothrond, while Hurin played off the wreckage left by Turin to finish off the Haladin town.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Hurin and Turin? Turin brought down Nargothrond, while Hurin played off the wreckage left by Turin to finish off the Haladin town.

hS

Well, you got the right pair, so have at it.

[Galadriel55]

What did Hurin do to the Haladin town?

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

What did Hurin do to the Haladin town?

Actually, I had him enabling the destruction of Doriath via Nauglamir in mind.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Actually, I had him enabling the destruction of Doriath via Nauglamir in mind.

Not the downfall of Gondolin? I guess he's only tangentially responsible for either.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Not the downfall of Gondolin? I guess he's only tangentially responsible for either.

Gondolin's downfall was caused by Morleg and Morgoth.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

What did Hurin do to the Haladin town?

Showed up, sparked off an insurrection, watched it burn and then wandered off, as I recall.

Will think of a puzzle.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Showed up, sparked off an insurrection, watched it burn and then wandered off, as I recall.

Is that UT? The Narn? In Sil/COH he just buries Morwen and wanders off. That's why I was confused about it.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Is that UT? The Narn? In Sil/COH he just buries Morwen and wanders off. That's why I was confused about it.

It's from Wanderings of Hurin.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

It's from Wanderings of Hurin.

Which I really thought had made it into CoH, but apparently it's still only found in HoME XI.

Apparently after Hurin was set free, he wandered as follows:

-To Hithlum, which he left entirely at peace under the iron fist of Lorgan the Eastron.

-To the Dry River, where he betrayed Gondolin's location by yelling at clouds.

-To the Stone of the Hapless, where he refused to tell Morwen anything about their kids despite her being literally dying at the time.

-To Brethil, where he assaulted the Chieftain for being slightly rude, was arrested, and called for insurrection against the Chieftain at his trial. All the claimants are killed, Obel Halad is burnt, and the Haladin are basically destroyed as a people.

- And then he popped down to Nargothrond, murdered Mim, stole a bunch of treasure cursed by both dragon and dwarf, and took it to Doriath to spite Thingol for not chaining up his family until they died of old age.

Post-bondage Hurin wasn't a great person to be around, is what I'm saying.

~

Here you go:

Who learned twice of a kinsman's death, once from a dream and once from a legend?

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Who learned twice of a kinsman's death, once from a dream and once from a legend?

I really want to say Faramir, but I'm not actually sure his encounters with Boromir's boat and broken horn qualify. My somewhat vague memory tells me he didn't dream of the boat but was at most having a waking vision, if not seeing the real thing. But he did hear the horn blow, and knew about the broken pieces.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I really want to say Faramir, but I'm not actually sure his encounters with Boromir's boat and broken horn qualify. My somewhat vague memory tells me he didn't dream of the boat but was at most having a waking vision, if not seeing the real thing. But he did hear the horn blow, and knew about the broken pieces.

I missed this! Yes, this is quite correct. I didn't check the books, but my memory is that he first found out through a dream or vision, and then from one of those mythical Halflings of northern legend.

Over to you.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I will attempt the dreaded genealogy, no direct quotes or speculated kinship this time.


My first-cousin-once-removed-in-law and I are both known for similar encounters. Who are we?

[Urwen]

Nvm.

[Urwen]

I've been thinking about this for days, and still drawing a blank. Maybe one of the Hobbits..?

[Galadriel55]

No these aren't hobbits. Both characters are also well known.

[Urwen]

Maybe Denethor and Eomer, who both encountered Hobbits?

[Huinesoron]

I think this relationship is the one between Elrond and any of the Sons of Feanor, but can't come up with a plauslble answer based on that.

(I've been thinking about this several times, but never found anything coherent.)

hS

[Galadriel55]

Neither one, I'm afraid. The encounters in question are pretty singular - though not unique. Of the legendary world-changing variety. And for both kinsmen, this encounter could be said to be the most important part of their respective stories. Think of two stories that are about different people, different times - but both have one of the relatives encounter... well, the same encounter.

[Urwen]

So they encounter the same person?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

So they encounter the same person?

They encounter the same... well, the encounter that makes them famous. World-renowned.

[Urwen]

Oh, don't tell me it's them? But that's impossible. The in-law thing makes it impossible.

Or maybe it doesn't if the first cousin once removed is a girl...

Tentative Finrod + Tuor guess coming your way.