Survivor: The Second Age

[Boromir88]

What is all the gripe about here? As has been reminded several times I created this game, and others have followed with versions from other Tolkien works of their own. This is the Mirth forum, and I started this game exactly for that. In fact, Myself and the other survivor starters I think we are still gathering and planning for a Survivor All-star, which will be the last 15 or so contestants from each game.

Anway, here's a link to the original game, however this is Formendacil's game and I completely respect that he will do what's best. I didn't discount votes, I did change to non-retractable because it got so confusing to tally up the votes (luckily Glirdan helped me out). But this is a different game and I understand why it is needed to give explanations as to why you vote someone off, I think that it fits in more closely with the show on TV. Everyone has a reason to vote the way they do and if it's required to say why, then so be it. I will say Form, if you are going to do that, I think it would be best to lay out (which it seems you have done) what you are looking for. Also, if you don't count a vote inform that person (through PM or by whatever means) on why, so they don't continue to make the same mistake. Just some friendly suggestions.

Sorry I haven't been participating as much in these last one's it's been kind of difficult, I just wanted to bring up the original thread and reinforce what's been said about this being intended for fun and enjoyment. From what I have seen and participated it seems like it's been going that way. I wish their were alliances in my game, each side pushing for their own candidate. Anyway, that's all I wanted to say, perhaps I'll pop in and vote again.

[Boromir88]

Oh one more thing....

Celuien in defense of Cirdan who had the forsight to see Gandalf as the only istari to stay true to his task is why he entrusted Gandalf with the Ring. The istari were sent to ME to help the Free peoples combat Sauron, Cirdan had the vision to see this and new his ring to light up people's hearts would come of much use to Gandalf. Without Cirdan and his ring would Gandalf be able to spark up the hearts of people? I don't think so.

Though I do agree that Elrond should stay as far as right now, I ask you to reconsider your Cirdan vote.

Elros is the guy everyone should be going after. He shied away from his Elven-heritage and formed the cursed kingdom of Numenor. He chose mortality because he couldn't face/handle living forever like his brother and his other kindred. He's the coward, not Cirdan.

[The Saucepan Man]

Hey, let's leave the Numenoreans alone, shall we? They have suffered enough so far and their tribe is already heavily depleted. The Second Age was, in many ways, the Age of Numenor, so it would seem only fair that at least one fo them should make the final.

Originally Posted by Celuien

Further proof of his complete disinterest in aiding the Free Folk of Middle-earth is demonstrated in his giving his ring away to Gandalf. Obviously he was looking for someone else to take over the job he was entrusted with when given his ring.

While I mainly agree with your analysis of Cirdan, who is little better than Elrond in his craven desire not to get involved, at least Cirdan did give his Ring to someone who was prepared to use it for the greater good. Unlike Elrond, who simply used it selfishly to preserve his own little idyll.

[Boromir88]

Hey, let's leave the Numenoreans alone, shall we? They have suffered enough so far and their tribe is already heavily depleted. The Second Age was, in many ways, the Age of Numenor, so it would seem only fair that at least one fo them should make the final.

None of them deserve to be in the final. Ok, it was their age, but the Numenoreans are no good, greedy, elvish wannabees. That's why there was afterall...the downfall of Numenor. Their actions caused their own defeats and their greed for longer life after they were already lived 5 times longer actually cost them. I can't even argue that the Numenoreans (like Sauron and the Witch-King) provide good viewing ratings, they're just wannabees.

Though you are making sense with Elrond I will say. Perhaps Earendil's entire family just needs wiped out. I mean let's think about it:

Elrond, along with Gandalf was the main planner for The Fellowship and the destruction of the Ring. But other than that what does he do? Also, that's in the 3rd age. He's even so lazy he sends his sons to give messages, because he doesn't want to leave.

Arwen, though beautiful, just a snobby little princess that is only the symbol of authority. She's like the Queen of England, rich, a nice title, but absolute no authority at all.

Elladan and Elrohir are just Aragorn wannabees, tagging along with the other Dunedain.

Now I know the last 3 aren't contestants, but it just shows the worthlessness of Earendil's descendants. The whole line needs to be wiped out (meaning Elros and Elrond).

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The whole line needs to be wiped out (meaning Elros and Elrond).

You have a point. I will honour a well-reasoned vote for Elrond with an equally well-reasoned vote for Elros (provided that I can think of anything he actually did) once Elrond has departed.

[Celuien]

It was Elrond's skill as a healer that saved Frodo from becoming a wraith. No Frodo, no Fellowship, Sauron wins, end of story. Elrond useless? Hardly.

As for Cirdan, I'll admit he had wisdom in dealing with Gandalf. Wisdom to pass on a task he wasn't up to. So I still think he's less deserving than Elrond.

Honestly, I might change my vote. My goal isn't to eliminate Cirdan as much as it is to save Elrond. But I agree that the Numenoreans have been hit too hard lately, so I won't be looking in their direction.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Celuien

It was Elrond's skill as a healer that saved Frodo from becoming a wraith.

Third Age, m'dear, and therefore inadmissible.

In any event, didn't Tolkien say somewhere that healing was primarily undertaken by the females of the Elven peoples? There we are. Irrefutable Tolkien-based proof that Elrond is, in fact, a cissy.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Arwen, though beautiful, just a snobby little princess that is only the symbol of authority. She's like the Queen of England, rich, a nice title, but absolute no authority at all.

I'm sure you don't mean to cast aspersions, but I'm fond of my sovereign and am rather riled by this. Certainly, I'd rather she had authority than the ludicrous men elected by the rabble...anyway, let's keep her out of it.

Incidentally, Arwen doesn't have a nice title. She most certainly isn't a princess.

One of the most interesting things about Elrond is that he isn't King of Rivendell, or even often Lord. He usually sticks to Master...a title on about Sam's level. This shows a good dose of humility and plenty of wisdom, which Cirdan, also titleless, displays as well.

Shall we contrast that with Sauron the Great, Lord of Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Terrible One, The Eye, true King of Middle-earth, etc etc? By rewarding Sauron and punishing Elrond you are voting for insupportably large egos.

If we must chase the sterile grail of tribal equality, though, I'm willing to compromise and lessen the Other Speakers. They're rather dark horses...well, trees...wouldn't want any of them to win by stealth...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Certainly, I'd rather she had authority than the ludicrous men elected by the rabble...anyway, let's keep her out of it.

That's the one thing that you have said so far that makes any sense, Ang.

By rewarding Sauron and punishing Elrond you are voting for insupportably large egos.

Actually the eviction of Elrond will strike a blow against insupportedly (sic) large egos, as it will rile the phantom.

[Boromir88]

I'm sure you don't mean to cast aspersions, but I'm fond of my sovereign and am rather riled by this. Certainly, I'd rather she had authority than the ludicrous men elected by the rabble...anyway, let's keep her out of it.

Of course I met nothing serious. Royalty had it's power back in the day, but now you have to admit the Royal line is basically a figure head that has real little power. Anway, how it connected to Arwen is she is the "Estel" or hope of her people, basically a figurehead with little power. The only way she tastes a bit of authority is when she marries the King of Gondor.

Which I must say is another strike against Elrond. What's the junk about him only letting Arwen marry the King of Gondor? What the King of Rohan or say a Lord of a distant land isn't good enough for him? What's this him setting restrictions on who his daughter can and can't marry, that's Shakesperean era .

You have a point. I will honour a well-reasoned vote for Elrond with an equally well-reasoned vote for Elros (provided that I can think of anything he actually did) once Elrond has departed.

Good enough for me. I have now been thorougly convinced:

++Elrond

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Of course I met nothing serious. Royalty had it's power back in the day, but now you have to admit the Royal line is basically a figure head that has real little power.

Oh, I can admit that. But I'm not admitting that it shouldn't have...

Since you all seem to be Dark Lord cuddlers:

--SAURON, ++FIMBRETHIL

The true example here of an emasculating wife...heartlessly abandoning her faithful spouse, leaving him in spasms of grief which he's still pouring into song an Age later. What irresponsibility she shows to te continuation of her kind! And what a bad example she sets to the other Entwives!

She's far worse than Tar-Aldarion, but essentially guilty of the same sin...only she made it permanent.

Send her off!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Send her off!

But think of the ratings, my dear fellow. There is nothing like the reuniting of a formerly estranged couple to bring viewers flocking in their droves. And, given theit non-hasty approch to resolving their differences, this is one which could run and run. Audiences are hanging on their every, carefully and lengthily delivered, word.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Third Age, m'dear, and therefore inadmissible.

Bah. I refer to my earlier discussion of timeframes. Besides, leading the founding of Imladris should count for something.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

In any event, didn't Tolkien say somewhere that healing was primarily undertaken by the females of the Elven peoples? There we are. Irrefutable Tolkien-based proof that Elrond is, in fact, a cissy.

Didn't he also say something about the hands of a King being the hands of a healer?

And are you implying, sir, that female-dominant skills are of lesser worth than those of males? For shame. That's no way to persuade me.

Fimbrethil is looking like a good alternative...

[Anguirel]

The ratings? Thank goodness you've remembered them, Saucie!

Why, when you were suggesting sending off the popular harp-player, romantic husband and peacemaker of the show, Elrond, foster-son, lest we forget, of the tormented celebrity former Survivor winner Maglor, I almost thought you must be neglecting the ratings...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Celuien

And are you implying, sir, that female-dominant skills are of lesser worth than those of males? For shame. That's no way to persuade me.

That's not what I said at all. My own good wife belongs to the medical profession, and a noble profession it is too.

I was merely saying that in Middle-earth healing among Elvish communities tends to be a role undertaken by the females. As a healer, Elrond is therefore engaing in a primarily female role. Ergo, he is a cissy.

He is the Middle-earth equivalent of a male nurse.

(Disclaimer: These comments are made for game-purposes only. No offence to medical professionals, male female or otherwise, is intended and none should be taken.)

[The Saucepan Man]

... the popular harp-player, romantic husband and peacemaker of the show, Elrond ...

Indeed. Those qualities must surely have audiences riveted to their screens ...

[Lalaith]

Sorry, just popping in again. Can't resist...

In defence of Fimbrethil...
Wights of the Barrowdowns - male and female both!

Imagine. Being. Married. To. Fangorn.


Enough to make anyone go postal. To Fimbrethil's credit she did not.

[Anguirel]

How about-

Imagine being an Ent-wife-that is, by necessity, having to marry an Ent, or not marry at all-being married to Fangorn-a relatively active and interesting Ent, in comparison to, say, Skinbark-and wandering callously off to leave him to an alcoholic Ent-draught decline.

Shame, Fimbrethil, shame!

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

That's not what I said at all. My own good wife belongs to the medical profession, and a noble profession it is too.

I was merely saying that in Middle-earth healing among Elvish communities tends to be a role undertaken by the females. As a healer, Elrond is therefore engaing in a primarily female role. Ergo, he is a cissy.

He is the Middle-earth equivalent of a male nurse.

(Disclaimer: These comments are made for game-purposes only. No offence to medical professionals, male female or otherwise, is intended and none should be taken.)

None taken by this soon-to-be-senior med student.

I sympathize with sterotype-defying trailblazers, which Elrond would be if your argument is correct. It takes courage and true leadership to take on such a role. More points for Elrond.

--Cirdan
++FIMBRETHIL

Indeed, Fimbrethil contributed nothing of note to Middle-earth history. As such, she doesn't deserve to be here. Besides, it was unfair to run out on Fangorn, who is a gem among Ents.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Celuien

I sympathize with sterotype-defying trailblazers, which Elrond would be if your argument is correct.

And I would too, had he blazed any trail worthy of note. Instead, he just mooned about in Rivendell while the world fell about around him before stirring himself just enough to carry a pole with a bit of cloth on it to Mordor, there to fail to save Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by Celuien

Besides, it was unfair to run out on Fangorn, who is a gem among Ents.

Say it, sister.

[Boromir88]

And Elrond calls Rivendell the Last homely house west of the Misty Mountains...pah, what advertising baloney. It's just a ploy to rake in customers. To sum up Elrond is a cissy, lazy, control freak, and a scandalous corporate moneymaker.

[Elu Ancalime]

I dont know if this is Tolkien based but

++Elrond because as hearld to Gil-Galad, that makes him a kind of bodyguard. Being a hearld, he is to protect peace, and should have sacrificed him self infrnot of Sauron to give GG time to fall back, perhaps.
________
COLORADO MARIJUANA DISPENSARY

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by SPM

It seems entirely inappropriate to me, in the midst of the turmoil of the Second Age, for one who should have been contributing so much more to the struggle to absent himself from it for large periods in order to establish what was, effectively, a Middle-earth hippy commune.

Elrond did his share of running around commanding part of Gil-galad's forces, but yes, he did take the time to set up a refuge. That same refuge later became the center of healing, lore, and wisdom in all of Middle-Earth. And Elrond picked a good spot. From Rivendell, he was able to provide a stopping place for travelers preparing to tackle the Misty Mts, or a resting place for people who had already come over them. He was in a decent place to exchange messages with Lothlorien and keep the roads clear of evil when necessary.

Also remember that without Elrond, there would be no Aragorn. The heirs of Isildur and their possesions were preserved in Rivendell throughout the years. And the only reason the Ring was able to escape the Nazgul was because of Elrond and his refuge in Rivendell, so don't dare criticize Elrond for taking the time to set up Rivendell. He was doing exactly what was necessary, possibly as a result of his powers of foresight.

Also, remember how accepting Elrond was. Gimli had trouble getting into Lothlorien- dwarves didn't ever go there. In Elrond's house, however, Elves and Men and Dwarves and Hobbits were all welcome. A vote against Elrond is a vote for racism.

Originally Posted by SPM

And Elrond even bungled the one serious job which fell to him in the entire endeavour, that of persuading Isildur to destroy the Ring.

Oh, come on. No one, even Manwe, could've convinced Isildur to destroy the Ring. That was its power.

Originally Posted by SPM

I implore you, my fellow players, free this game from the stranglehold of the phantom’s machinations

I do NOT have a stranglehold on this game. One of my very favorites, Ar-Pharazon, got evicted on the first day. Once that happened, any chance of getting my way in this game was gone.

Originally Posted by SPM

Surely, Ang, you recognise that neither Feanor nor his sons would have approved.

From my point of view, that's the best reason you have, Sauce. As you know I am a huge Feanor-lover, and you are right that Feanor, who always did precisely what was necessary, probably wouldn't have done what Elrond did. But, perhaps Elrond had the correct approach for the time in which he lived. Feanor was meant for another time and situation, so though Elrond didn't act like Feanor, it is completely possible that he took the correct course of action.

Originally Posted by SPM

In any event, didn't Tolkien say somewhere that healing was primarily undertaken by the females of the Elven peoples?

Yes, he did. And the reason was because the males were the warriors, and so killed other beings, and the ability of elves to heal was diminished by the taking of life. For Elrond to reach the amazing level of healing expertise he had, he had to abstain from slaying in battle. But, let me remind you, he didn't really do that until the Third Age. In the Second Age, he was still running around fighting. It was during the following age that he settled down, and when there was killing to be done he sent his sons, who were very capable warriors.

Originally Posted by Ang

One of the most interesting things about Elrond is that he isn't King of Rivendell, or even often Lord. He usually sticks to Master...a title on about Sam's level. This shows a good dose of humility and plenty of wisdom

I agree. By right, he could have declared himself King of the Noldorin and Sindarin elves, but he never tried to. He simply did what should be done, and didn't worry about grabbing wealth and power for himself.

Originally Posted by Ang

By rewarding Sauron and punishing Elrond you are voting for insupportably large egos.

That's right!

Originally Posted by SPM

Actually the eviction of Elrond will strike a blow against insupportedly (sic) large egos, as it will rile the phantom.

Perhaps the reason my ego is so out of control is because my whole life I've seen the way humble people like Elrond are treated by folks like you and your fellow Elrond voters. Ever think of that?

By supporting Elrond, you will perhaps be encouraging me to curb my ego, and respect Elrond even more than I do.

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

++Elrond because as hearld to Gil-Galad, that makes him a kind of bodyguard. Being a hearld, he is to protect peace, and should have sacrificed him self infrnot of Sauron

The fact that Gil-galad survived as long as he did showed that Elrond did a mighty good job protecting him. It was only when Sauron himself came forward that Gil-galad died, and that was his choice. Like his grandfather Fingolfin, who chose to confront Morgoth, and like Theoden who seeked out the leader of the Haradrim on the battlefield, Gil-galad and Elendil made the choice to fight the leader of their foe. It was a chieftain's duel. Elrond would've been wrong to interfere. It's obvious that he was willing to, as it was he and Cirdan alone of the elves that stood beside Gil-galad in that contest when all else had fled.

When I look at the list of candidates, I only see maybe five who should be able to challenge Elrond. I think it's silly that he's a candidate this early.

I don't see anyone else on the list that was the best healer in the world, the greatest loremaster in the world, protected the line of kings for an age, crafted the plan and Fellowship that would save the world from Sauron, and controlled a river to boot.

Elrond is about the last person you should vote for.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by tp

Elrond is about the last person you should vote for.

Any chance you'll join the Fimbrethil campaign? For Elrond's sake?

[Boromir88]

It was during the following age that he settled down, and when there was killing to be done he sent his sons, who were very capable warriors.

Well phantom I will have to go against you on Elrond. Now yes, Elladan and Elrohir were very capable fighters...but are you suggesting Elrond should win father of the year for sending his sons to what was pretty much a suicide mission? I think quite the opposite, what father would do such a thing?

The fact that Gil-galad survived as long as he did showed that Elrond did a mighty good job protecting him.

He did a fine job of protecting his own wife. Oh and when she was captured it was Elladan and Elrohir to come to her rescue...again Elrond let's others do the work for him.

I don't see anyone else on the list that was the best healer in the world

He did a fine job healing his wife, she ended up leaving...don't blame the gal either.

[the phantom]

Any chance you'll join the Fimbrethil campaign? For Elrond's sake?

I suppose. What has she done besides keep a garden? Besides, I'm a bit allergic to several different types of trees, weeds, and grass, so chances are I'm allergic to ents. I won't vote until later though- after work.

[the phantom]

but are you suggesting Elrond should win father of the year for sending his sons to what was pretty much a suicide mission? I think quite the opposite, what father would do such a thing?

Firstly, Elrond's sons could have chosen not to go to the Black Gate. They came as messangers to Minas Tirith bringing Elrond's council (which was perfect, by the way), but after that they could've left. They aren't children. They chose to stand with Aragorn, Gandalf, and the other free peoples. Also, I imagine that Elrond had some amount of faith that things would turn out for the best.

Oh and when she was captured it was Elladan and Elrohir to come to her rescue

Yes, it was.

again Elrond let's others do the work for him

At that point, it was no longer his work to fight and slay. He rightly allowed his sons to go, and focused on doing his part, which was healing his wife when she returned. A fine mess Middle Earth would've been in had Elrond not focused on his healing powers, and so rendered himself unable to stop Frodo's Morgul knife wound from turning him into a wraith.

[Diamond18]

A count of the votes-so-far reveals:

Elrond: 3

Fimbrethil: 2

Tar-Miriel: 1

It distresses me to see a campaign mounting against not one but two females in the same day -- when already we have so few. I am a fan of Fimbrethil, little though there is to know about her. Clearly, though, she (and the other entwives) were independent women. It rather annoys me, actually, that their sex is defined by their relationship to the Ents. What, were there no single Ent-females? How would us human females feel if we were known exclusively as Manwives? No wonder they left their controlling husbands behind. As Lal so efficiently stated, imagine being married to Fangorn.

Therefore I am stating that I will forthwith vote however I need to in order to keep Fimbrethil in the game for as long as possible.

Form, I'm a little unclear on one point, I realize. Is it sufficiently Tolkien-reasoned to cast a vote for one charater to save another, if one's reasons for saving said other character are suffciently Tolkien-based? I.E., is sparing Fimbrethil enough excuse to vote against anyone else?

Just in case it is not, I am going to express some opinion on the ongoing debate about Elrond. I find the points about him letting his sons do most of the work, and declaring who may marry his daughter (and when) to be rather convincing. I had actually forgotten about his dealings in the Arwen matter (clouded as they are by the movie version, I fear). One might say he was exceedingly kind to let Aragon marry Arwen at all -- but I say piffles. Arwen was not a child and therefore he had no right to say anything about whoever and whenever she chose to marry. That's just more males controlling the females, and like Fimbrethil, I say I can do without, thankyouverymuch.

And then of course there are the tra la la lally's down in the valley.

I cast a vote for Elendil earlier, being confused about who had been evicted. Since he's not even a contestant anymore maybe I don't need to do this, but just for clarity's sake:

- - Elendil

+ + Elrond

[Firefoot]

++Elrond

For such a major character, he really is not as complex as he could be. Everything just sort of happens to him; the only place where he seems to actually take real iniative in something is in founding Rivendell. He's something of a dud among his family. Let's compare: Earendil - duh... Elwing - same category. Shouldn't a son of these parents be destined for absolute greatness? Children: Arwen - may not do much, but page for page she is a heck of a lot more interesting and developed that Elrond. Elladan and Elrohir - don't have much of a chance to do much, but do what they can - avenge Celebrian's death (what does Elrond do? sit around and mourn), ride to war (again, what does Elrond do? sit around). And, as has already been said, he sure doesn't do much in the Last Alliance. The one time he had a real opportunity to make a difference was when Isildur takes the Ring - but Elrond doesn't do a very good job of persuading him otherwise.

Elrond seems to be a prime example of wasted potential.

Edit: hm, I never saw this whole last page...

[Lalaith]

I choose
++ELROND

Why?
Sure, he's a nice guy. I throughly approve of the multi-cultural refuge, it's a great idea, but I'm sure someone else can take over the room bookings and the ring and so on if he goes.
My reasons:
1. A strategic vote (which I hope is admissable grounds) to save Fimbrethil, whose marital plight deserves some sympathy. I'm not saying Fangorn doesn't have some excellent points, but as a spouse he would drive you bonkers. And if she goes, we will never, never know what really did happen to the Entwives.

2. Because it would be so nice for brother Elros to outlast Elrond in Survivor, as quite the reverse happened in Real Middle Earth...

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

It distresses me to see a campaign mounting against not one but two females in the same day -- when already we have so few.

Now, now, I'm all in favour of gender equality, but to enforce patronising positive discrimination is to practically clamour for your chains. True feminists should eject unworthy examples like the donna mobile who was Fimbrethil.

As for the Manwives point-a simple matter of etymology. "Wife" means, at root, "woman". It is only culture that has given it its sense of "man's woman". There could very well have been single Ent-wives.

[The Saucepan Man]

I cannot fault much of your reasoning, phantom. It is a fair and accurate description of Elrond, based upon the material handed down to us. But it must be bore in mind that such material was produced by those with a vested interest in painting him in a good light: Bilbo, who was provided with free board and lodging at Rivendell in return for a favourable review, and Frodo, who bought his passage to the Undying Lands from Elrond's daughter in return for the same.

And, in any event, fair and accurate, like Elrond, is dull, particularly in a contest such as this. Much more interesting and satisfying to be - ah - inventive with the given facts.

So, down with Elrond, the lazy, cowardly, cissy, hippy, neglectful parent.

And there is one point on which I must take issue with you:

Originally Posted by the phantom

Also, remember how accepting Elrond was. Gimli had trouble getting into Lothlorien- dwarves didn't ever go there. In Elrond's house, however, Elves and Men and Dwarves and Hobbits were all welcome. A vote against Elrond is a vote for racism.

Quite apart from the ridiculous last sentence, which does your case no favours, it should be remembered that the location of Imladris was a well-kept secret. Which means that the only people welcome at Elrond's Last Hippy House were those who he and his "wise" friends chose to invite (unless, like Boromir, they spent an unfeasibly long time looking for it). In other words, it was an exclusive place, open only to the rich and famous. Playboy princes, such as Legolas and miserly but wealthy old Dwarves and their kin. Notice how those who were not quite so high on the social scale, namely Thorin and company, were mercilessly teased by the Tra-la-la-lally'ers lining the driveway. And I suspect that they were only admitted, on sufferance, because, subject to the elimination of a certain Dragon, their financial prospects were favourable.

Rivendell, the Country Club of Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

There could very well have been single Ent-wives.

Ah, but why are Fimbrethil and her ilk not the Ents and Fangorn and co the Ent-husbands?

[the phantom]

I cannot fault much of your reasoning, phantom. It is a fair and accurate description of Elrond, based upon the material handed down to us.

Well, then I've done my job. Now it's up to you guys to listen to me.

I doubt Elrond will be saved today, but I'll try anyway.

+ + Fimbrethil

What did she do besides ditch her husband and keep a garden? That's not much compared to Elrond. And Fimbrethil and her friends likely got whacked by Sauron, while Elrond on the other hand, he helped make the plans and aided the people who whacked Sauron. The choice between Elrond and Fimbrethil seems clear to me.

[littlemanpoet]

It has come to my attention that this infamous Fimbrethil had the nickname of "Wandlimb". This nickname, according to certain sources at my disposal, was apparently quite apt. She was in the business of selling her own limbs as magical! Now, Ents may be quite fascinating creatures, but this "magical" business is obviously spurious. So not only does she leave Treebeard high and dry, she also trades of her own person for profit and that with a falsehood. Most disgraceful.

++ Fimbrethil

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Paul the poet guy

It has come to my attention that this infamous Fimbrethil had the nickname of "Wandlimb". This nickname, according to certain sources at my disposal, was apparently quite apt. She was in the business of selling her own limbs as magical!

Tolkien said that? I don't remember that from LotR. Praytell which 'sources' do you speak of? It may be my memory has gone but so long as we're getting all stringent with the Tolkienism you might be more specific?

As for those who declaim ol' Fimby for leaving her husband -- why is this all her fault and not Treebeard's? Sure, he is pining for her now but who says he rightly appreciated her then? How long did it take for him to actually miss her? After all, the mass departure of the Entwives suggests something of a lack of caring on the Ents' parts. Fangorn, Fangorn, water-drinker, had a wife and couldn't keep her.... (Okay, I'll stop with the badly rewritten rhymes now. *shudder*) Anyway, since Tolkien leaves much to the imagination as far as the Entish domestic dispute goes, it's all a matter of viewpoint whether Fimbrethil et al's defection was a failure of the sexes to co-exist or the devilsh devices of those evil female types. Obviously, I choose to give them the benefit of the doubt and the sympathy of the fellow sex, and believe the Entwives had completely justifiable reasons for being disatisfied with their husbands. Or, at the very least, their husbands just didn't care enough at the time to actually go after them. Whether or not this stand is true feminism doesn't mean anything to me, as I've never cared much for such labels.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Hmm...who to pick, who to pick?

On one hand, a wise, powerful, kind, and humble elf lord.

On the other hand, a walking tree best known for choosing gardening over her lover.

Tough decision.

+ + Fimbrethil

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Fimbrethil is really too stupid to be allowed to stick around. As evidence, she chose an idiotic spot for her gardens- too close to Mordor. If she had any brain at all she'd have had the sense to move someplace safer once Sauron grew strong. I rather expect that she was purposefully putting herself in harm's way in order to lure Treebeard and the other ents out of their woods. If we get rid of Fimbrethil, it will allow Treebeard to give his full attention to winning the game.

++Fimbrethil

[TPotSS]

Wow! This looks like a pretty fun game. Lots of funny stuff from people.

The choice between Elrond and Fimbrethil seems pretty clear cut to me, though. Just look at the way they felt about their significant other.

Elrond- He did everything he could to heal his wife so she could stay with him in Middle Earth. Unfortunately for him, it didn't work out.

Fimbrethil- She just picked up and left her mate, and never came back.

Honestly, how cold is that? Then again, what do you expect from an overgrown stick?
++Fimbrethil

[Lhunardawen]

I don't really have it in mind to have Elrond win this season of Survivor, but I'm already convinced that he should stay longer than most contestants.

Like Fimbrethil, for example. How stupid of her to leave Fangorn hanging. And this is the über-lovable Treebeard we're talking about! He certainly does not deserve her, so it's a good thing she left after all.

Besides, I can hardly resist a chance to irk the great Wolfman Sauce.

++FIMBRETHIL

[Formendacil]

First off, a bit of housekeeping…

Originally Posted by Diamond

Form, I'm a little unclear on one point, I realize. Is it sufficiently Tolkien-reasoned to cast a vote for one charater to save another, if one's reasons for saving said other character are suffciently Tolkien-based? I.E., is sparing Fimbrethil enough excuse to vote against anyone else?

No. If that’s YOUR reason for saving Fimbrethil, then by all means vote Elrond, but your vote for Elrond should be given reason to do with Elrond.

Thanks for asking, as I don’t think that particular point has been clarified.

Now, on to the counting of the votes:

Originally Posted by Diamond

In my mind, and this may sound strange but it is true, the most damning thing Elendil ever did was name his sword Narsil. Of course, technically Tolkien only says, "...and it was named Narsil" but we can safely assume that Elendil, being the first owner of said sword, would have been the one to christen it. Narsil is, forgive me, the most butt-ugly name in all of Tolkiendom. It sounds like the bastard love child of an air freshener and a hair removal product. Thank goodness Aragorn had the sense to rename it. Wouldn't you rather weild Andúril? I know you would.

I'll get you, my pretty,

+ + Elendil,

and your little sword too!

This vote is not COUNTED. Elendil is dead.

Originally Posted by SPM

And so, without further ado:

+ + ELROND

My reasoning.

First, he should, by rights, already have gone.

Secondly, he has already had a number of tries at winning a Survivor contest and failed on each occasion. His desperation to win is rather unappealing and faintly sad in one who should be dignified.

Thirdly, he is a cissy.

Of course, none of those reasons will count.

And so, fourthly:

It seems entirely inappropriate to me, in the midst of the turmoil of the Second Age, for one who should have been contributing so much more to the struggle to absent himself from it for large periods in order to establish what was, effectively, a Middle-earth hippy commune. All that telling tales round the fireplace, singing “Tra-la-la-lally, down here in the valley” and communing with nature is all very well, and charming in its place, but not when the forces of Sauron are encamped on one’s doorstep.

It might be said that establishing a stronghold and defending it with great power provided a valuable refuge for Elves in such a time of trouble. But that, surely, is not the true Noldorin way. Any Noldor worth his salt should be looking for any opportunity to engage the enemy and be willing to nobly sacrifice himself and his people in a vain but glorious effort to make his mark. Did Elrond not learn from the First Age that hiding away in a secret refuge very rarely comes to any good and, at the very least, does irreparable harm to one’s reputation? Just ask yourself. Which First Age Noldorian gained the greatest notoriety. Feanor or Turgon? Elrond was the Turgon of his Age.

To his credit, Elrond did march with Gil-Galad in the War of the Last Alliance, but Gil-Galad was clearly so unimpressed with his battle skills, after all that arty, tree-hugging Imladris stuff, that he relegated him to the role of a mere standard bearer. “You just carry that pretty little flag, Elrond, and keep yourself out of any trouble,” he no doubt said.

And Elrond even bungled the one serious job which fell to him in the entire endeavour, that of persuading Isildur to destroy the Ring. Had he been able to accomplish just that one, simple task, a lot of fuss and bother would have been avoided.

Need I explain this one? SPM’s vote is COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

And so I shall vote once again against the supreme exemplar of fascistic, militaristic, non-hung loose unchilledness.

++SAURON

Just like Elrond, he's been in every Survivor so far; but he won't admit it, hiding beneath aliases like "Gorthaur" or "The Necromancer". He's even come second once, but he's still not satisfied. He thinks he has a "right" to win; he needs to be disillusioned, and soon.

I'm talking to an electorate that has, despite some blips, generally supported the downtrodden and relatively obscure. Anarion, Ohtar and Amandil have been protected before their illustrious relatives.

Can such an electorate allow Sauron-the most predictable, tedious, megalomaniac candidate of them all-to progress?

Erm… Anguirel, guess what… Your vote almost didn’t get counted. Without that reference to Sauron’s predilection for aliases in your first paragraph, you’d be without a Tolkien-based foot to stand on.

COUNTED, barely…

Originally Posted by Celuien

There is another Elf far more worthy of eviction. I speak of the responsibility shirking Cirdan.

While Elrond was in Rivendell, defending a stronghold against Sauron and Celeborn/Galadriel did the same in Lorien, what was Cirdan doing? Nothing. Sitting at the Havens building ships and just waiting to leave for Elvenhome. Further proof of his complete disinterest in aiding the Free Folk of Middle-earth is demonstrated in his giving his ring away to Gandalf. Obviously he was looking for someone else to take over the job he was entrusted with when given his ring. Thus, Elrond deserves to stay. Cirdan does not.

++CIRDAN

Celuien refers directly to Círdan’s actions of building ships and giving Narya to Gandalf.

COUNTED

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

+ + Tar-Miriel

Suffice it to say she was no Boudica (Boadicea). Numenorean feminists must have been very disappointed in her. There could have been a cool civil war, with perhaps elvsees with bright, shining swords helping out the king's (queen's) men/fighters/whatever.

It's difficult to imagine Eowyn, Galadriel, Lobelia, etc. reacting in such a supine manner. (Picture of Lobelia goingafter Ar-Pharazon with her umbrella).

I’m not completely sure that I should be including this vote, but on the balance I think the speculation regarding the consequences of Tar-Míriel not putting up a fight to Pharazôn to be admissible.

COUNTED

Originally Posted by arcticstorm

While his skills may be interesting, such as reading moon letters and calling large counsels to argue the fate of the entire free world, he really doesn't do much to help his tribe, therefore for staying at home and sending others to their doom while he remains in his comfortable homely house reading hidden letters on maps ++Elrond.

Although I fail to see how being able to read moon-letters is a reason for eviction, it’s a clear link to The Hobbit, and despite Davem’s apparent claims to the contrary, that book is within the pale of Middle-Earth.

COUNTED

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Of course I met nothing serious. Royalty had it's power back in the day, but now you have to admit the Royal line is basically a figure head that has real little power. Anway, how it connected to Arwen is she is the "Estel" or hope of her people, basically a figurehead with little power. The only way she tastes a bit of authority is when she marries the King of Gondor.

Which I must say is another strike against Elrond. What's the junk about him only letting Arwen marry the King of Gondor? What the King of Rohan or say a Lord of a distant land isn't good enough for him? What's this him setting restrictions on who his daughter can and can't marry, that's Shakesperean era .

Good enough for me. I have now been thoroughly convinced:

++Elrond

Boromir refers to Elrond’s requirement that Aragorn be High King of Gondor and Arnor ere he marry Arwen. Vote COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Since you all seem to be Dark Lord cuddlers:

--SAURON, ++FIMBRETHIL

The true example here of an emasculating wife...heartlessly abandoning her faithful spouse, leaving him in spasms of grief which he's still pouring into song an Age later. What irresponsibility she shows to te continuation of her kind! And what a bad example she sets to the other Entwives!

She's far worse than Tar-Aldarion, but essentially guilty of the same sin...only she made it permanent.

Send her off!

A biased recounting of the estrangement of the Ents and the Entwives, I’m inclined to think, but a valid reason. Vote change COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Celuien

None taken by this soon-to-be-senior med student.

I sympathize with sterotype-defying trailblazers, which Elrond would be if your argument is correct. It takes courage and true leadership to take on such a role. More points for Elrond.

--Cirdan
++FIMBRETHIL

Indeed, Fimbrethil contributed nothing of note to Middle-earth history. As such, she doesn't deserve to be here. Besides, it was unfair to run out on Fangorn, who is a gem among Ents.

A part of me is tempted to say that there really isn’t a reason given here to count the vote as changed. It being a grey area, I’ll accept as admissible the rationale that Fimbrethil contributed nothing of note to ME history. Seems to be true…

Changed vote COUNTED

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

I dont know if this is Tolkien based but

++Elrond because as herald to Gil-Galad, that makes him a kind of bodyguard. Being a herald, he is to protect peace, and should have sacrificed him self in front of Sauron to give GG time to fall back, perhaps.

Looks Tolkien-based to me. Tolkien definitely wrote that Elrond was Gil-galad’s herald. Whether or not that means that he should have done more than he did is debatable…

COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Diamond

Just in case it is not, I am going to express some opinion on the ongoing debate about Elrond. I find the points about him letting his sons do most of the work, and declaring who may marry his daughter (and when) to be rather convincing. I had actually forgotten about his dealings in the Arwen matter (clouded as they are by the movie version, I fear). One might say he was exceedingly kind to let Aragon marry Arwen at all -- but I say piffles. Arwen was not a child and therefore he had no right to say anything about whoever and whenever she chose to marry. That's just more males controlling the females, and like Fimbrethil, I say I can do without, thankyouverymuch.

And then of course there are the tra la la lally's down in the valley.

I cast a vote for Elendil earlier, being confused about who had been evicted. Since he's not even a contestant anymore maybe I don't need to do this, but just for clarity's sake:

- - Elendil

+ + Elrond

Direct references to the parental control of Elrond over Arwen- vote COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

++Elrond

For such a major character, he really is not as complex as he could be. Everything just sort of happens to him; the only place where he seems to actually take real iniative in something is in founding Rivendell. He's something of a dud among his family. Let's compare: Earendil - duh... Elwing - same category. Shouldn't a son of these parents be destined for absolute greatness? Children: Arwen - may not do much, but page for page she is a heck of a lot more interesting and developed that Elrond. Elladan and Elrohir - don't have much of a chance to do much, but do what they can - avenge Celebrian's death (what does Elrond do? sit around and mourn), ride to war (again, what does Elrond do? sit around). And, as has already been said, he sure doesn't do much in the Last Alliance. The one time he had a real opportunity to make a difference was when Isildur takes the Ring - but Elrond doesn't do a very good job of persuading him otherwise.

Elrond seems to be a prime example of wasted potential.

A complete recounting of Elrond’s life… albeit in a rather biased light. Perfectly admissible. COUNTED.

I choose
++ELROND

Why?
Sure, he's a nice guy. I throughly approve of the multi-cultural refuge, it's a great idea, but I'm sure someone else can take over the room bookings and the ring and so on if he goes.
My reasons:
1. A strategic vote (which I hope is admissable grounds) to save Fimbrethil, whose marital plight deserves some sympathy. I'm not saying Fangorn doesn't have some excellent points, but as a spouse he would drive you bonkers. And if she goes, we will never, never know what really did happen to the Entwives.

2. Because it would be so nice for brother Elros to outlast Elrond in Survivor, as quite the reverse happened in Real Middle Earth...

As mentioned at the head of this post, saving someone else is a fine REASON to vote, but not admissible criteria for the counting of that vote. However, Lalaith refers to Elrond’s longer lifespan than Elros’. This is a grey area, since to whom does this properly refer: Elrond or Elros? Is it a reason to boot the one, or a defence of the other?

COUNTED.

Originally Posted by the Phantom

+ + Fimbrethil

What did she do besides ditch her husband and keep a garden? That's not much compared to Elrond. And Fimbrethil and her friends likely got whacked by Sauron, while Elrond on the other hand, he helped make the plans and aided the people who whacked Sauron. The choice between Elrond and Fimbrethil seems clear to me.

Similar situation as Celuien’s changed vote. Admitted on the same grounds.

COUNTED

Originally Posted by Littlemanpoet

It has come to my attention that this infamous Fimbrethil had the nickname of "Wandlimb". This nickname, according to certain sources at my disposal, was apparently quite apt. She was in the business of selling her own limbs as magical! Now, Ents may be quite fascinating creatures, but this "magical" business is obviously spurious. So not only does she leave Treebeard high and dry, she also trades of her own person for profit and that with a falsehood. Most disgraceful.

++ Fimbrethil

I must confess to being completely forgetful as to if Fimbrethil is ever called Wandlimb in Tolkien’s works…

However, LMP is admitted anyway on the “abandonment of Treeebeard” plea. COUNTED.

Originally Posted by lord of dor-lomin

Hmm...who to pick, who to pick?

On one hand, a wise, powerful, kind, and humble elf lord.

On the other hand, a walking tree best known for choosing gardening over her lover.

Tough decision.

+ + Fimbrethil

Grey areas again… I shall call it permissible, since the reference to Fimbrethil as a “walking tree”, “choosing gardening over her lover”, while not specific to her situation, but to Entwives in general, is definitely Tolkien-based.

COUNTED.

Originally Posted by Fea

Fimbrethil is really too stupid to be allowed to stick around. As evidence, she chose an idiotic spot for her gardens- too close to Mordor. If she had any brain at all she'd have had the sense to move someplace safer once Sauron grew strong. I rather expect that she was purposefully putting herself in harm's way in order to lure Treebeard and the other ents out of their woods. If we get rid of Fimbrethil, it will allow Treebeard to give his full attention to winning the game.

++Fimbrethil

One of the better anti-Fimbrethil arguments I think we’ve seen- a direct reference to the choice of the Entwives’ gardens: the Brown Lands, a clearly Tolkien detail.

COUNTED

Originally Posted by TPOTSS

The choice between Elrond and Fimbrethil seems pretty clear cut to me, though. Just look at the way they felt about their significant other.

Elrond- He did everything he could to heal his wife so she could stay with him in Middle Earth. Unfortunately for him, it didn't work out.

Fimbrethil- She just picked up and left her mate, and never came back.

Honestly, how cold is that? Then again, what do you expect from an overgrown stick?
++Fimbrethil

Very similar to lord of dor-lomin’s vote. COUNTED, on the same grounds.

Originally Posted by Lhunadaga

I don't really have it in mind to have Elrond win this season of Survivor, but I'm already convinced that he should stay longer than most contestants.

Like Fimbrethil, for example. How stupid of her to leave Fangorn hanging. And this is the über-lovable Treebeard we're talking about! He certainly does not deserve her, so it's a good thing she left after all.

Besides, I can hardly resist a chance to irk the great Wolfman Sauce.

++FIMBRETHIL

Yet another reference to the departure of the Entwives. COUNTED

Okay, toDay is now over. Any votes posted from this point on will be counted towards tomorrow’s tally.