TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Pitch - when he criticises the Bom-lynch, his main target is very clearly Nogrod, not Shasta, Legate, Eönwë or me. In a few other occassions, he is rather aggressive towards him. I'm not sure of this new, more aggressive style of Pitch's, but I can't see him coming up with it as a wolf and applying it mostly wolf-on-wolf, it is potentially dangerous to the pack and puts him rather in the spotlight.

Shasta - his rather loud attack on Nogrod on Day1 doesn't reveal much, neither does the subsequent interaction, but: why the heck would a wolf-Shasta tainted himself by the association by suggesting lynching Zil the supposed acolyte instead of Nog the wolf? Surely that would have been too brazen?

These two are not exonerated by this, but I think it makes them look better enough that we should let them be for toDay which is the critical Day.

With three wolves left, some bold wolf-on-wolf can't be discounted totally when considering Nog's mates. Especially ones that talked a good game about him being suspicious, but never followed up on it.

As for Shasta, one has to wonder why an innocent he would not have seen that so closely following Nog would have put him in a bad light.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Lommy

Shasta - his rather loud attack on Nogrod on Day1 doesn't reveal much, neither does the subsequent interaction, but: why the heck would a wolf-Shasta tainted himself by the association by suggesting lynching Zil the supposed acolyte instead of Nog the wolf? Surely that would have been too brazen?

I understand not wanting to focus on Shasta today, and I don't plan to, I just wanted to comment on this. Because Shasta is my top suspect, and I can't see how what happened yesterday effects what I should think about Shasta.

Also, Lommy, you're looking at Shasta through very narrow-minded glasses. You're looking at him based on interactions with Nogrod, and not at the whole picture. Shasta's actions through the entire game have been suspect, to say the least. Sure, he might be brazen and bold, but don't let the personality get in the way of what he's done so far, and what he would have the village do. He says that he feels I bussed Nog's lynch, well...

Shasta, bussed Bom's lynched. Wanted to bus Inzil (who he "suspected" as the acolyte, when there was little reason to feel the acolyte was an immediate threat) along with the known wolf Nog. And he continued to push for the acolyte's lynch yesterday, until getting frustrated by all the suspicion and leaving. Remove the personality from the equation, because it's not like you can't be brazen and a wolf . Look at the intentions and the results.

So, are you suggesting we just drop and let Shasta off the hook?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I understand not wanting to focus on Shasta today, and I don't plan to, I just wanted to comment on this. Because Shasta is my top suspect, and I can't see how what happened yesterday effects what I should think about Shasta.

Also, Lommy, you're looking at Shasta through very narrow-minded glasses. You're looking at him based on interactions with Nogrod, and not at the whole picture. Shasta's actions through the entire game have been suspect, to say the least. Sure, he might be brazen and bold, but don't let the personality get in the way of what he's done so far, and what he would have the village do. He says that he feels I bussed Nog's lynch, well...

Shasta, bussed Bom's lynched. Wanted to bus Inzil (who he "suspected" as the acolyte, when there was little reason to feel the acolyte was an immediate threat) along with the known wolf Nog. And he continued to push for the acolyte's lynch yesterday, until getting frustrated by all the suspicion and leaving. Remove the personality from the equation, because it's not like you can't be brazen and a wolf . Look at the intentions and the results.

So, are you suggesting we just drop and let Shasta off the hook?

(underlining mine)

I will say this one time today. After that, if anyone brings it up yet again, I am going to flatly ignore you.

I thought the Acolyte was a werebear after the Eruhen kill and acted as I did to lessen the number of kills that I foresaw happening at night.

There. Done.

That said, Boro, think before you speak. Learn the definition of "bussing" before scrambling to use that, of all things, as a point against me, because neither Bom nor Inzil were/are wolves.

I'll post actual content after I take a shower.

[Inziladun]

I have to wonder about something, Boro.

You spent pretty much all of yesterDay going back and forth with Shasta, and he certainly seemed to be your main suspect.

Toward the end of the Day, you started saying you were confortable with lynching either Shasta or Legate. Why, when your focus had clearly been on Shasta, did you vote for Legate?

x/d with Shasta

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Agh. And I felt so smart suspecting the same person three days in a row, just to find out that despite everything I thought had to mean he was a wolf, he wasn't. Now it's my turn to need a full reevaluation of everything.

And I was going to bring about the same point as Lommy. We can't afford to lose an innocent today. At least not alone - a double lynch with a wolf and an innocent would still keep us alive. Hence today, if it was considerately done, I would suggest to think about a double lynch. Counting numbers:

Lommy already mentioned what happens if we lynch an innocent today. We're dead.
If we lynch a wolf today, and they kill an innocent at night, we end up with 4-2 (+1) tomorrow. That's pretty much the same situation as today.
If we lynch the acolyte today, it's 4-3 tomorrow, which means we have our chances, but they are not big.

Whereas:

If we lynch two innocents today, we're dead, surprisingly.
If we lynch an innocent and a wolf, it's 3-2 (+1) tomorrow, which is bad, but not as bad as lynching only an innocent.
If we lynch two wolves today, we might be able to breath again.
If we lynch the acolyte and an innocent, we're done for.
If we lynch the acolyte and a wolf, it's 4-2 and the unknown powers of this game are gone.

This obviously again depends on the acolyte, their alignment etc. But let's not discuss that all the time today.

I'll need to think and evaluate a lot before I have an opinion, an idea of this game again. I'll be doing that now (as well as writing an essay).

Before I delve too far into analyses and such, I want to comment on this.

Now watch out, Shasta's speculating about the Acolyte again! Lynch him!

The narration of the Night, to me, certainly makes it seem like the Acolyte joined the side of the village last night. I think what happened is, either the Acolyte targeted Eonwe for something, Eonwe dreamt of the Acolyte, or both (this is the one I'm leaning toward - in the narration, the Envoy says he dreamt of the Acolyte, and the narration also has the Acolyte coming to the Envoy's door) and some combination of these events led to the Acolyte becoming innocent (given the whole teaching session, perhaps Eonwe managed to pass on his Seer powers?)

Now, granted, Nerwen was clear that the Acolyte doesn't count for either side in the tally. But what if they aren't the Acolyte anymore? If they did become innocent (big if, but I think, possible), the tally becomes 3-6... and suddenly a double-lynch becomes the only way the wolves can win toMorrow. This makes me raise my eyebrows at Pom a bit, because she basically came out of the gate toDay with some support for a double-lynch toDay.

[satansaloser2005]

I have a horrible idea that just might work. Is anyone interested?


Or, as they say in Limerick....

I do believe I have a plan
That might meet the ordos' demands
But I rather fear
That no one will hear
Could I get a show of your hands?



(I have a point to make against Lommie later, but I'll have to wait until I can get home and find the post, alas. I won't be home until almost midDay, but I didn't want to let this go.)

[Pomegranate]

Okay. A throughout re-read of what the people still alive said on Day 2 (I'm planning to continue to Day 3 as well) gave me following notifications.


Boro suspected Nog somewhat and said he's going to look into Nog BEFORE Eonwe started ranting about him – wolves must’ve seen that it is a seer-attempt, but Boro started it already before. Doesn't make him not-guilty, but Shasta's suspicions of him eager to bus a packmate are not completely correct as he could've also gone with his intuition that was already there.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Galadriel55 - my top suspect at the moment. It's not only her weird jump on me yesterDay or on Nog toDay, but mostly two details which scream wolf (which you all should know if you've read my posts but let me repeat). 1. When she looks back, she refers to whether she said she suspected someone, not whether she suspected them in her head. I can see no reason an innocent would play with this mindset. 2. She was confident enough that she'd be alive toDay that she spent a considerable amount of time last Night writing a post. A rhetorical question: who again are they who generally don't die during the Night?

The Captain Obvious here? If she isn’t a wolf, here is a good reason why the wolves realised to kill G55. Did she want to get Gal lynched so that they wouldn’t need to kill her at night? Or was she just so ignorant? (I could've been this ignorant, but Lommy said herself she's trying to avoid this) It's hard for me to believe that she didn't realise the option of Gal being the captain while writing the post. On the other hand, if she was a wolf, it would feel weird she decided to emphasise these two points which actually meant something else, instead of all the various other things she could've pointed out about Gal.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

That said, I don't see Legate's initial reluctance to fall out of his chair trusting Eönwë as suspicious, but rather a point in his favour. Has everybody forgotten that for all we know, the Acolyte may get dreams as well and, whether xe works with the wolves or on their own, is by all evidence not on our side?

I actually though this was a good point at the moment, but now it feels like it has a bad vibe in it, for I am sure the wolves have discussed the acolyte and the possibility of xem having dreams and such. Also when Legate started getting suspicion, Pitch seemed to forget this and didn't bring it up until I mentioned it.

Day 3 later (some essay writing before that, and some defending myself for Lommy and Inzil)

x/ed with everyone after Boro's last

edit. misspelling

[Pomegranate]

But first to Shasta: I wrote that before the narration was up. That is going to change things. I don't think I can be blamed for not expecting such a change.

That being said, I agree with you, it looks like the acolyte became a part of the village (or at least was given a choice to become such) and I would also see it as even more probable that he inherited the Seer powers. Which wouldn't after all be so surprising considering that an acolyte means (if I remember correctly from day one) a student in priesthood but not a priest yet. When the Seer dies, or the Acolyte finds the Seer, xe becomes such xemself.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

But first to Shasta: I wrote that before the narration was up. That is going to change things. I don't think I can be blamed for not expecting such a change.

That being said, I agree with you, it looks like the acolyte became a part of the village (or at least was given a choice to become such) and I would also see it as even more probable that he inherited the Seer powers. Which wouldn't after all be so surprising considering that an acolyte means (if I remember correctly from day one) a student in priesthood but not a priest yet. When the Seer dies, or the Acolyte finds the Seer, xe becomes such xemself.

Okay, that's fair enough. What, then, are your thoughts on a double-lynch now?

[Loslote]

I was feeling so good about Pom...but I'm beginning to wonder. She's been playing with a bit of a cautious hand, not getting into much drama, and basically staying in the shadows while seeming to be sharp and helpful. Also...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

You might not be able to fully experience a Downsian WW game until you've had a good, passionate row with me, but honestly, you need to start looking 20 times more suspicious for that to happen. Until then, you're going to be on my "Smart. Sharp player. Her, I like." list. It's probably a terribly boring list to be on, but you'll be on it until I actually see "Not only is she all that, but she's evil too. Her, I like, but keep a closer eye on!"

This post of Boro's makes me think that not only would Pom and Nog, as Lommy said, be likely packmates, but so would Pom and Boro. In that post, Boro's basically writing Pom off as innocent, and implying that an evil Pom would happen in the future - that is, not this game.

EDIT: xed with Shasta

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Now watch out, Shasta's speculating about the Acolyte again!

And jumping to conclusions in the opposite direction this time.

Judging from the narration, and no unexplained kills happening for the last two Nights, it is of course clear now that the Acolyte is no threat, and the narration indeed makes it likely that Eönwë's seer power was transferred to xem - which is great, if xe decides to use it for our benefit.

So far so good. But automatically assuming that xe will not only side with the village but also count as an innocent from now on, contrary to everything stated in the rules, is just as bold an assumption as that the Acolyte is a classical Werebear and has to be Zil - and it could be desastrous to overestimate our numbers toDay.

You have, however, a point that Pom's willingness to contemplate double-lynches at this stage of the game is rather alarming. Not sure though whether it's noobishness or sinister purpose.

Originally Posted by Zil

With three wolves left, some bold wolf-on-wolf can't be discounted totally when considering Nog's mates. Especially ones that talked a good game about him being suspicious, but never followed up on it.

I'd like you to explain in which way I should have 'followed it up' and didn't. My suspicion of Nogrod originated in his part in starting the Bomwagon; I became doubtful of his guilt because my prime suspect from Day 1, Eönwë,attacked him in a manner which raised more than a few eyebrows, until the question which of them was guilty was resolved when Eönwë revealed himself as the seer and Nog as a wolf. How I reacted to that is on record, and I'm honestly puzzled what more you would have wanted me to do.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Pom

I actually though this was a good point at the moment, but now it feels like it has a bad vibe in it, for I am sure the wolves have discussed the acolyte and the possibility of xem having dreams and such.

We all discussed it on Day 1. Go back and read the thread.

And believe me or not, I was just about to post on the subject when I saw your post asking me about it.

Sally, I'm curious.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I have to wonder about something, Boro.

You spent pretty much all of yesterDay going back and forth with Shasta, and he certainly seemed to be your main suspect.

Toward the end of the Day, you started saying you were confortable with lynching either Shasta or Legate. Why, when your focus had clearly been on Shasta, did you vote for Legate?

I didn't say much about Legate until later, but that's just because I was agreeing with the points against him, and didn't want to re-hash what pretty much everyone else was saying. Other than me thinking, "are we sure there's no cobbler in this village? Because, it's looking like Legate." Legate was getting suspected enough, and I didn't see the point to just add on by re-stating the same points against him.

Shasta, at least at the beginning of the day, I didn't think was getting suspected enough. So, I started pushing, and it may look hypocritical since I've beat on the same points against him (unlike what I didn't want to do to Legate), but I didn't think he was getting enough suspicion until he got too frustrated and left.

But at the end of the day, I had enough of both of them, and couldn't care less which one was lynched, since it wouldn't effect my suspicions at the start of the day. Had Legate been a wolf, I still would have Shasta as a top suspect. Had Shasta been lynched, whether wolf or innocent, I would have had Legate my top suspect today. And my first post today was just to say "wait a sec, are we seriously just going to drop suspicion against Shasta now?"

It's the same plan I have today. That is, I've said all I can say on Shasta. We're going to go in this circle of "I don't believe you," and just re-hashing all the same argument. I'm pretty much tired of that (as I'm sure Shasta is too ), but I'll say now, just because I'm going to turn/start paying more attention to others doesn't mean I've suddenly dropped Shasta as my primary suspect. It just means I will agree with him about this:

Originally Posted by Shasta

I will say this one time today. After that, if anyone brings it up yet again, I am going to flatly ignore you.

But I don't like the look of this:

That said, Boro, think before you speak. Learn the definition of "bussing" before scrambling to use that, of all things, as a point against me, because neither Bom nor Inzil were/are wolves.

It's these types of comments that just don't sit well with me, a squawk over a word/definition. I took "bussing" as "pushing/driving" a lynch of someone. Oh, so it means what a wolf driving the lynch of another wolf? My bad, I'll use "pushing" from now on...but just that tit-for-tat debate over definitions of words we're using is not a way to convince me you're innocent.

[Pomegranate]

Lommy: I raised a point against Nog exactly once. I started my second day by pointing this one out.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Now, as everyone kept saying yesterNight (can you put it like that?) Shasta was the one to start the actual bandwaggon against Bom, after suspecting around. However, it's worth noticing that he wasn't the first one to suggest it, even though he was the first to actually give his vote to Bom. First one was Nogrod.

(#113)

During his post he actually kind of talked himself out of it, but somehow it seemed more that he was giving the bait and hoping someone would go with it. And when Shasta did decide that he wants Bom lynched, Nogrod started to show his uncertainty, but then decided to go for Bom when there was a lot of people after him. His vote was the one which raised Bom’s votes higher than Lommy’s.

Continuing in a bit, this was the most striking thing for me, now hunting for more.

x/ed with everyone after Nerwen's #160

After he reacted, I continued pursuing:

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Nog, it's not a secret, but somehow Shasta managed to get all the "glory" of the lynch even though you were the one who started more or less seriously thinking about the choice. So it was worth mentioning, when going through the people who were driving Bom's lynch. You planted the idea, then let someone else grab it and drive it forward while you were hiding more in the background.

And after Legate (I think) stood for Nog, I said:

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Though Nogrod kept saying he's semi-serious, instead of just ranting around. And isn't that exactly what baiting is (at least that's how it would sound to me, unless you use it with slightly different definition) - not a serious wish to lynch someone (I wouldn't call Shasta's actions baiting) but some kind of reminder, "hey, you know, then there's this one... anyone? Feel like continuing this discussion?"

This was all about that one post that had raised my suspicion. So I did indeed continue it for a while. It is not seen here, but I kept pursuing Legate at the same time. After this I left. I ended up deciding Legate was more suspicious, because his actions were suspicious during the whole first day, whereas Nogrod's were suspicious during that one post, and I thought he answered to well. Before this time Legate had also jumped into the waggon suspecting Eonwe, who in my eyes acted somewhat suspiciously, but not enough to gain a vote, and besides I didn't like the pile of suspicion he had already gained by that one post.

x/ed with everyone after my last

[Pomegranate]

My opinion on a double-lynch is, like earlier in the game it was, that it's scary, and has a very easy potential for the wolves to play with it. Why I was talking about it earlier (to Pitch, mainly, I assume Shasta got my point in my last message) was that I assumed we'd be dead anyway today if we happened to lynch an innocent alone - hence I thought it would be of more use than danger to think about a double-lynch. However, as I said, now that there is a relatively big chance that the acolyte is on our side, I don't think it's a good idea to attempt such today.

[Pomegranate]

Oh, and I keep forgetting I said I'd answer to Inzil, though I don't actually know if there's anything to answer for. It was genuine bad feeling about pursuing someone innocent for three Days, I guess there's nothing more to say.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

(to Pitch, mainly, I assume Shasta got my point in my last message)

Noted; my post crossed with your reply to Shasta.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Loslote

In that post, Boro's basically writing Pom off as innocent, and implying that an evil Pom would happen in the future - that is, not this game.

I don't see why "in the future" has to mean "not in this game", unless you decide to read it so; this is a constructed argument.

I must admit I had more or less forgotten about Lottie for the last two Days (sorry dear), but I don't like this.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I'd like you to explain in which way I should have 'followed it up' and didn't. My suspicion of Nogrod originated in his part in starting the Bomwagon; I became doubtful of his guilt because my prime suspect from Day 1, Eönwë,attacked him in a manner which raised more than a few eyebrows, until the question which of them was guilty was resolved when Eönwë revealed himself as the seer and Nog as a wolf. How I reacted to that is on record, and I'm honestly puzzled what more you would have wanted me to do.

I didn't point at you, or anyone in particular. But your reaction to my open statement is noted.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I didn't point at you, or anyone in particular. But your reaction to my open statement is noted.

The post I quoted from was your reply to a post of Lommy's where she talked about me and Shasta, so I don't think it was unreasonable to assume that you did as well.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Pom

The Captain Obvious here? If she isn’t a wolf, here is a good reason why the wolves realised to kill G55. Did she want to get Gal lynched so that they wouldn’t need to kill her at night? Or was she just so ignorant? (I could've been this ignorant, but Lommy said herself she's trying to avoid this) It's hard for me to believe that she didn't realise the option of Gal being the captain while writing the post. On the other hand, if she was a wolf, it would feel weird she decided to emphasise these two points which actually meant something else, instead of all the various other things she could've pointed out about Gal.

What do you mean? The mindset thing? That could only mean wolf or seer, and I wasn't especially concerned about her being the seer. (It's kind of ironic you raise this point against me since I almost got lynched on Day1 because of my wishy-washy suspicions - they were wishy-washy because I was afraid of suspecting the gifted. Didn't succeed very well in that though!) If you mean dying during the Night, the Ranger can count less in her own survival than anyone else, given that she cannot be protected.

Originally Posted by Pom

Lommy: I raised a point against Nog exactly once.

True. But you also pointed out stuff about him more than once, such as "Nogrod is playing differently than last time I played with him", always without concluding whether it's suspicious or not. That's what caught my eye.

Originally Posted by Pom

It is not seen here, but I kept pursuing Legate at the same time.

Yes, fair enough, but that was not what I was looking at.

Originally Posted by Boro, underlining mine to indicate what I'm replying to

I understand not wanting to focus on Shasta today, and I don't plan to, I just wanted to comment on this. Because Shasta is my top suspect, and I can't see how what happened yesterday effects what I should think about Shasta.

Also, Lommy, you're looking at Shasta through very narrow-minded glasses. You're looking at him based on interactions with Nogrod, and not at the whole picture. Shasta's actions through the entire game have been suspect, to say the least. Sure, he might be brazen and bold, but don't let the personality get in the way of what he's done so far, and what he would have the village do. He says that he feels I bussed Nog's lynch, well...

Shasta, bussed Bom's lynched. Wanted to bus Inzil (who he "suspected" as the acolyte, when there was little reason to feel the acolyte was an immediate threat) along with the known wolf Nog. And he continued to push for the acolyte's lynch yesterday, until getting frustrated by all the suspicion and leaving. Remove the personality from the equation, because it's not like you can't be brazen and a wolf . Look at the intentions and the results.

So, are you suggesting we just drop and let Shasta off the hook?

Boro - of course I was looking through narrow-minded glasses! All that post was based on how people interacted with Nogrod, that was the poiny. If not, I would have found Pitchie, Lottie and Shasta all more suspicious. You can't discount anyone (except Zil ) at this point of the game. And yes, I'm suggesting to let Shasta (and Pitchwife) off the hook toDay (not infinitely) because their interaction with Nog make them less likely wolves and we need to catch one toDay. Even if I was wrong and Shasta was a wolf, there's still two of them out there.


edit: xed with Zil and Pitch

[Pitchwife]

Lommy, sinceyou quote Pom quoting that post from you about G55 from Day 1, let me ask you: did you never write an analysis or something during the Night phase in order to post it on the next Day, not knowing whether you'd be alive to do so?

I'm asking because this point you made against G55 (that she couldn't be sure she'd be alive unless she was a wolf etc.) seemed horribly constructed to me at the time, but it got buried under other matters and I forgot to comment on it.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Lommy, sinceyou quote Pom quoting that post from you about G55 from Day 1, let me ask you: did you never write an analysis or something during the Night phase in order to post it on the next Day, not knowing whether you'd be alive to do so?

I'm asking because this point you made against G55 (that she couldn't be sure she'd be alive unless she was a wolf etc.) seemed horribly constructed to me at the time, but it got buried under other matters and I forgot to comment on it.

I once made some points in my head and wrote them down so I could post them the next Day, and got killed of course. After that, no. It's not necessarily just that I don't want to gamble on being alive, it might also be laziness: when I'm an ordo, I gladly take the Nights as my days off from the game and continue thinking in the next Day phase. Anyway, my suspicion of people who write analyses overNight is not just because I don't do it myself, but also because in one early game I played, a wolf was caught precisely because of her (I think it was Brinniel) certainity of being alive the next Day.

[Pomegranate]

Lommy, I agree I was vague. To clarify: On point 1, it's bad for both gifteds and wolves alike to seem suspicious, and coming up with a point against someone out of nowhere (as in, a point that hasn't been vocalised before, even if you have had it in your mind) does easily seem such. Point is, gifteds do have a reason to be self-conscious. On point 2: In fact, the Ranger in this game can protect herself (go check the admin thread if you want to - I did). I don't know if Gal did so, but she had the possibility to know she was to survive a night kill attempt.

x/ed with Lommy

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Pom

On point 1, it's bad for both gifteds and wolves alike to seem suspicious, and coming up with a point against someone out of nowhere (as in, a point that hasn't been vocalised before, even if you have had it in your mind) does easily seem such. Point is, gifteds do have a reason to be self-conscious.

I agree that gifteds don't want to seem suspicious, but unlike the seer and the hunter, in normal conditions the ranger has no special reason to watch whom she suspects aloud. So given that I knew Gal wasn't the hunter and thought she wasn't the seer, her keeping so much track on what she had said instead of what she had thought made me immediately alarmed.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

On point 2: In fact, the Ranger in this game can protect herself (go check the admin thread if you want to - I did). I don't know if Gal did so, but she had the possibility to know she was to survive a night kill attempt.

In that case, it's my mistake. I assumed she can't, as usual, and obviously didn't pay enough attention to the rules. (I'm sorry, I hate it when people don't read the rules and justify their actions based on that.)


PS. Also if you are a wolf, this:

Originally Posted by Pom

If she [me] isn’t a wolf, here is a good reason why the wolves realised to kill G55.

literally makes me hit my head with stuff.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I once made some points in my head and wrote them down so I could post them the next Day, and got killed of course. After that, no. It's not necessarily just that I don't want to gamble on being alive, it might also be laziness: when I'm an ordo, I gladly take the Nights as my days off from the game and continue thinking in the next Day phase. Anyway, my suspicion of people who write analyses overNight is not just because I don't do it myself, but also because in one early game I played, a wolf was caught precisely because of her (I think it was Brinniel) certainity of being alive the next Day.

I usually don't do much at Nights myself as an ordo, but last game I wrote a lengthy analysis of Shasta the very Night I was killed; so from my perspective, G55 didn't even have to be sure she'd be alive, she just had not to have a reason to expect that she specifically would die that Night. Apparently your mileage varies.

[A Little Green]

A quick summary of Boro; banter (not that there really was that), "I'm here" -posts, and the like excluded. Italicized parts are commentary.

Day 1

- attempts to settle heated feelings between Gal and Rikae; Gal's reaction to Rikae suspicious anyway
- not happy about my vote for him but doesn't find it suspicious; slightly defends Lommy from Gal (who suspected her based on her excessive use of the word 'weird'); disagrees with Nog and further argues his suspicion of Gal
- clarifies Nate's ww background for Legate, compliments her and tells himself to refrain from doing that (after being suspected for being too nice by, I think, at least myself and Legate)

Day 2

- ”not happy with what's going on with Eruhen/Acolyte stuff”; speculates about Rikae's death: ”Wolves saw Rikae as a threat/gifted and as a means to manipulate the suspicions/lynch today.”; feels a lot better about Gal, suspects Nog for his unusual hesitancy to take the lead; Pitch, Lommy and Lottie make him wary, promises to elaborate
- clarifies his point about Rikae; elaborates on Pitch, saying his uneasiness has to do with Pitch's scolding re Bom-lynch; slightly defends the reasoning behind the lynch; says he would have voted Gal but wouldn't have been opposed to lynching Bom
- says a wolf-Steve wouldn't gain much by accusing Nog so strongly; further discusses Nog's role in the Bomwagon
- thinks Pitch's explanation of his post on the Bom-lynch looks fine; disagrees with Legate about himself acting polished; says he's ”even more conflicted about Nogrod”, though most of the posts he quotes when elaborating on this he concludes are looking bad
- (after the reveal) says he's amused by Nog's desperate actions; votes Nog

Day 3

- ”Lovely, now the ranger.”

I've said it before, comments like this always make me wary, but this one isn't as bad as most, I suppose.

- suspects Shasta based on his reaction to his (Boro's) vote, says it's common knowledge he has no problem with busing his fellows (a hilarious comment if he's a wolf, btw!); says there's an acolyte-focus similarity between Nog and Shasta
- argues with Shasta about Nog's behaviour the previous Day in considerable length, and about whether or not it was necessary for Steve to reveal
- agrees with Zil about not concentrating on the acolyte
- thinks his disagreement with Shasta re. Acolyte may be a difference of playing style/point of view
- tries to calm me and Lommy down

For the record, I wasn't really angry, just a bit annoyed, and confused more than that; and Lommy's frustration had more to do with Nog's laptop deleting her post than with the game...

- says Nate has to look twenty times more suspicious to get off his ”smart, sharp player” -list

Lottie commented on this one earlier; I don't think he necessarily meant it'd have to wait until next game, but I do think writing her off as innocent and not reconsidering since is pretty odd for Boro. And actually, added to this I find it interesting that in his apology of not being himself Day 1 he says something about "why Pom and others likely noticed it wasn't my usual self"; yes, there were others, so why is Pom the one you remembered? Could be random, could not be, I honestly don't know.

- says he's had too much of Legate and Shasta for one day and would be willing to lynch either or both of them
- clarifies that the double-lynch idea wasn't serious; mentions possible trios of Legate-Lottie-Shasta and Lommy-Sally-Shasta

Actually, Boro, the names of Lommy and Lottie keep coming up, first on Day 2, then yesterDay; care to share why the two of them? And why Sally? Why those trios?

- (at almost deadline) wonders where Shasta is; ”Ok then, let's do this.”; votes Legate

Day 4

- criticizes Lommy for wanting to let Shasta off the hook though agrees with her that he shouldn't be the sole focus toDay; continues his case on Shasta
- defends his Legate-vote (despite his focus on Shasta) by saying he was suspicious of Legate but didn't speak a lot about it because he didn't have anything new to add, focused on Shasta because he thought there wasn't enough focus on him; says again he's going to keep Shasta as his top suspect but drop that discussion – and adds another point to it.


Overall?
- Especially in the beginning of the game, but also later, he's more than once taken up a role of clarifying misunderstandings and trying to calm people down
- Suspected Nog rather heavily already before Steve revealed
- Has a connection with Nate, I think
- ToDay, has kept saying he'll leave off Shasta, and doesn't

So - wolf or not? It probably doesn't come as a surprise when I say it could go either way; I'm having a bad feeling about him right now, but my gut has fooled me before. Any arguments against him are really rather weak if considered logically, but when has a Borowolf last blundered enough to allow strong arguments against him, anyway? Not sure if that makes sense, but to me it does. Just - bad gut-feeling, from reading his posts. His suspicion of Nog is a point in his favour, though (even if, knowing those two, they could totally pull off something like that as fellow wolves).


EDIT: x-ed with Lommy, Nate, another Lommy, and Pitch

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I usually don't do much at Nights myself as an ordo, but last game I wrote a lengthy analysis of Shasta the very Night I was killed; so from my perspective, G55 didn't even have to be sure she'd be alive, she just had not to have a reason to expect that she specifically would die that Night. Apparently your mileage varies.

I never do, not because I'm particulary worried about being axed at night, but because I don't know how the night death will effect my opinions going into the next day. Also, I like seeing/weighing reactions to the night death from people before doing anything else.

My guess though is this is something that varies from person to person, whether someone does or doesn't isn't in anyway a solid reason for suspicion. It may raise some red flags on someone as in..."Wait if you were so sure you were going to be alive...? = wolfy." But it's still a personal judgement call and I would prefer not to get into "What is this person thinking when they assume to be alive next day and write a post during a night?" That's making things way too complicated for yourself.

[Pomegranate]

On Boro being nice to me - until today (as I mentioned before) everyone has been nice to me. I can't answer to that. And me playing cautiously, Lottie: Look at yourself. I have at least thrown some suspicions (Legate, Nog, I guestioned Shasta, just now I'm having problems with Lommy and - let's face it, yourself (though I hate suspecting people right after they have suspected me, I agree with Pitch - I had forgotten Lottie's existence, and looked through her).

So, Lottie's posts from yesterday.

Originally Posted by Loslote

I actually thought this was a good point. The way I see it, there are only four reasons why the Acolyte killed Eruhen.

Option A: The Acolyte is a were-bear and kills every Night. This was proved false by the lack of a kill last Night.

Option B1: The Acolyte is a type of were-bear that kills every so often and wants the village (and spies) to all die. This is possible, and the only possible option where the Acolyte is definitively evil.

Option B2: The Acolyte still kills every so often, but xe doesn't necessarily want the village to all die. Xe killed Eruhen because xe thought Eruhen was a spy, and used his "every so often" kill to take out a potential spy, but was mistaken.

Option C: The Acolyte took the role of the person xe killed, and is now an ordo.

I won't go so far as to say it's more likely that the Acolyte isn't necessarily on our side, but it's not impossible, so I'm definitely not comfortable with writing the Acolyte off as evil as a matter of course.

(On acolyte killing Eru - no opinions on who's suspicious etc.)

Originally Posted by Loslote

After Legate's weird flip-out over Steve not revealing the Ordo yesterDay, and his dogged (and, as it seems to me at least, flimsy and grasping-at-strawsy) pursuit of Shasta (who's seemed logical and genuine, if not always right, to me this whole game), I'm very much inclined to vote him toDay. Pitchie also seems off to me, but I'm less convinced of his guilt than of Legate's.

Obviously Steve is innocent, but Lommy, Sally, and Nate also seem pretty good to me, and I'm leaning innocent on Boro, Shasta, and Zil (though hardly definitively yet!). I have no read whatsoever on Greenie, and if there's anyone else playing, I've gotten so little a read on them that I've forgotten them entirely.

Obviously, this means that one of the people in my second category are evil. For now I'm thinking it'd be more likely to be Boro and Shasta - I'm more confident about the first three I mentioned, and Zil and Greenie, for some reason, don't strike me as all that evil this game (of course, they also don't strike me as all that innocent, but that's why they're in the categories they're in).

Following with everyone else suspecting Legate, and giving vague hints about Pitch. Everyone else seems more or less innocent.

Originally Posted by Loslote

I'd be willing to consider the option of a Legate-Shasta-?Pitch? pack, at any rate.

EDIT: xed with a bunch

Originally Posted by Loslote

It would be insanely bold, but whoever survived would look very good. How much did Shasta suspect Legate before toDay? It could be the wolves decided that, since Legate was likely to be lynched for his suspicious reaction to Steve's dream, Shasta might as well come out of it looking very good.

Now, I'm not saying that this is necessarily what I think, but it is a possiblity I'm considering.

EDIT: xed with Legate

I'm sorry, who's careful? "I'm not saying that this is necessarily what I think"?

Originally Posted by Loslote

I've got to vote early, so I'll go ahead and

++Legate

For the reasons stated in my earlier post, especially his reaction to Steve's reveal. Good lynching, everyone!

I'm not comfortable, not at all. This to me seems like "I'm here, I'm saying something, but I'm not actually saying anything too much. Nothing that would in any case link me to anyone, anywhere."

Also, what was that change of opinion of Shasta mid-post? You started with "(who's seemed logical and genuine, if not always right, to me this whole game)" and ended up with putting him as the most probable of the innocent-group of yours to be a wolf. I'd say most probably you just had to figure out a reason to suspect Legate, so that you wouldn't seem you're just following others. But tell us, what were you thinking?

x/ed with Greenie and Boro

[Boromir88]

Last post crossed with Greenie, one thing you mis-interpretted:

- clarifies that the double-lynch idea wasn't serious; mentions possible trios of Legate-Lottie-Shasta and Lommy-Sally-Shasta

Actually, Boro, the names of Lommy and Lottie keep coming up, first on Day 2, then yesterDay; care to share why the two of them? And why Sally? Why those trios?

My talk of "this trio" or "that trio" I was using as sarcastic examples and expressing why I was annoyed yesterday. I mean that originated as Nog's argument to try to defend himself "Eonwe-G55-Boro, wolf-conspiracy to attack me!"

And yesterday there was a lot of continued "well these people are together, and there's this trio"...which flat out annoys me. Not that it's not good to point these out for a future reference but like I said yesterday, I suck at multi-tasking. Let me finish/complete one thing at a time and all this chatter of wolf-trio here and wolf-trio there was system overload/distracting from current task of Legate and/or Shasta = Boro brain combustion:

Originally Posted by 372

I'm well aware there are more spies than just Legate a/o Shasta, but I am perhaps the worst multi-tasker you'll ever know. Give me one thing to do. I'll execute it and then move on to the next thing. Asking me to jumble all these ideas of a Legate-Shasta-Pitch, Shasta-Lommy-Greenie, Legate-sally-Lommy spy combinations is a processing overload for me. So unless you want my brain to explode, let me go about my business one step at a time. Starting with either Legate or Shasta today. Comprende?

Post 378, responding to Legate (bolding mine)

And relax. I wasn't being serious with that double lynch, but expressing my annoyance at both of you, and overall annoyance at this "Legate-Lottie-Shasta" "Lommy-sally-Shasta" spy-trifecta chatter today. Annoyed to the point where, at this time I couldn't care less if either you or Shasta were lynched, therefor you could both go. Give a few hours to have some hot chocolate, watch some guilty pleasure/trash and I'll be significantly less annoyed.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Boro

My talk of "this trio" or "that trio" I was using as sarcastic examples and expressing why I was annoyed yesterday. I mean that originated as Nog's argument to try to defend himself "Eonwe-G55-Boro, wolf-conspiracy to attack me!"

And yesterday there was a lot of continued "well these people are together, and there's this trio"...which flat out annoys me. Not that it's not good to point these out for a future reference but like I said yesterday, I suck at multi-tasking. Let me finish/complete one thing at a time and all this chatter of wolf-trio here and wolf-trio there was system overload/distracting from current task of Legate and/or Shasta = Boro brain combustion

Ah, I see. Fair enough. Nevertheless, you did say you were wary of Lommy and Lottie and would explain later. I know it might be old already, but just for the record, what was it about?

[Thinlómien]

I guess now is the time to do this, before people start voting:

I'm the acolyte.

I only learnt this last Night (and I have to say it has quite nicely ruined my day of supposed essay-writing.) I got to pick my side, and it wasn't really a choice. I picked the village - some people may know I always side with the goodies, but also I would have felt very unfair changing sides when the wolves already have an upper hand and I myself have played lousily as an ordo.

I'm basically like a weaker seer. I get to dream every Night, but there's 50% chance I dream of someone else than I wanted to.

Last Night I chose and succeeded to dream of Boro, who is a wolf.

Based on his going after Shasta so strongly toDay, I think he's 90% likely to be innocent.

(Also, just to venture a bit further, I wouldn't be surprised if Boro and Pom were packmates. If Pom is a wolf, then I doubt Lottie is one, since she just suggested Boro and Pom are wolves together. Greenie drawing so much attention to him would also be a little risky at this point, so my best guess is Boro-Pom-Sally or if not, then Boro-Pom-Pitch.)

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Lommy

Last Night I chose and succeeded to dream of Boro, who is a wolf.

HA! I knew it was worth it not to go to bed just yet. I'm inclined to believe Lommy, partly because I find Boro a much likelier wolf than Lommy, partly because I can't see why a Lommywolf would try something like that (unless it's purely for sport, but I doubt she'd do that).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

HA! I knew it was worth it not to go to bed just yet. I'm inclined to believe Lommy, partly because I find Boro a much likelier wolf than Lommy, partly because I can't see why a Lommywolf would try something like that (unless it's purely for sport, but I doubt she'd do that).

It also fits with her wanting to discuss the Acolyte right out of the gate Day 1.

I'm also inclined to believe her, partly because I already was wondering about Boro, but also because I agree there's no reason for a Lommywolf to have taken such a risk.

[Pitchwife]

What?

If that is true, what the heck was Sally's #446 about?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Ah, I see. Fair enough. Nevertheless, you did say you were wary of Lommy and Lottie and would explain later. I know it might be old already, but just for the record, what was it about?

Oi, that's going back a ways. I can't remember Lottie off the top of my head, other than been too focused on others to pay close attention to her. But yesterday her posts about the acolyte struck me as good, and thus, just forgetting about her existance.

Lommy, I do, because I'm rather terrible in how I sort of give preferential treatment to people. I noticed Lommy immediately and her early day 1 posts were more frantic and ranty than usual. I mean I know they can look like she's constantly in argument with herself, but to start off frantic and ranting about random votes...if you were with me you could have seen the "?" above my head. I didn't say anything immediately, for the simple fact that I hadn't played with Lommy in so long, I didn't want to immediately start after her. So I went with "I notice her. Watch."

With everything yesterday I forgot about a lot of people, but

...Well, glad I refreshed the page before I continued on with this ramble post of made up garbage...

Touche Lommy. Touche.

[Pitchwife]

Also:

Originally Posted by Lommy

Last Night I chose and succeeded to dream of Boro, who is a wolf.

Based on his going after Shasta so strongly toDay, I think he's 90% likely to be innocent.

You dreamed he's a wolf and you think he's innocent? What the - ?

(EDIT: x-ed with Boro)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Also:

You dreamed he's a wolf and you think he's innocent? What the - ?

(EDIT: x-ed with Boro)

I would guess she meant Shasta was likely to be innocent, but I wouldn't go that far personally.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Also:

You dreamed he's a wolf and you think he's innocent? What the - ?

(EDIT: x-ed with Boro)

She means Shasta looks innocent, not me.

Silly Lommy, should have let me keep yapping away, I probably could have handed to you my spy-mates. But now. I'm staying zip.

[Pomegranate]

Okay. I'm somewhere between jumping for joy and swearing right now. Jumping for joy, because, if true, Lommy has just made the day of the village. I'm pretty sure she's telling the truth here because I can't see her motivation of being otherwise - as Shasta said earlier today, if the acolyte, as it seems, took the side of the village tonight, we can technically afford to lose one innocent, so if Boro would be found out as such, it would be a suicide for her tomorrow. This also can't be a wolf plan decided during the night, because obviously the narration was up just today.

...and swearing, because a) I trusted Boro somewhat, so I can't even use anything I have said so far to defend myself and b) he has definitely managed to paint me as black as possible. Agh! If (as seems probable) you are a wolf, Boro, I hate you. Just to let you know.

x/ed with everyone after Greenie