T-I-G LXVII: The Rangers of the North - The Fell Winter

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nienna

Well... I actually had some confidence in you until middle of Day 2 and now that you are still alive I ask myself "why are the wolves leaving Roa alive?" You seem like the type of player who, when innocent, is a detriment to the village. I don't understand why they would leave you alive and kill Brinn (who had only posted 3 times). I accept that they may want to frame you and I won't pass major judgment on you until I have time to do a thorough analysis (probably sometime later toDay).

I rarely get killed by wolves. The reason being is that around Day 3 everyone decides I've been alive too long and need to be killed. Brinn was probably killed for the same reason that any quiet person is killed (which is why I voted her as NG on Day 1). A quiet person leaves no trail.

Besides that your voting yesterDay was really strange. You voted Lommy for Captain, Gwath as NG, and Legate as lynch. The lynch vote probably sticks out for me the most as Legate is one of the few people who I don't suspect, at all.

Not agreeing with you and being weird are not one in the same. I have very good reasons for suspecting Legate. You are free to read them. They are certainly better reasons than "bad feelings" or "weird behavior" that have been the reasons most people are voting on. I voted Lommy as captain because out of everyone, I am least suspicious of her. No one else has a good reason for suspecting her, either. I voted Gwath as NG for the same reason I voted Brinn- quiet people get killed because they leave no trail.

You have also been handling the captain situation in a weird way. You say that you have no desire for the position but it seems as if you have been subtly hinting at it all game. Fea I also suspect because of her very quick vote for you for Captain. It seemed as if she was trying to lead 'her sheep' to vote you captain.

How is it weird to not want to risk a wolf having the power to control the lynch? I think the people who aren't considering it are not thinking of the consequences. I don't care to be captain. I only want the captain to change everyday.

If you are so concerned about people not getting too much power then vote for no captain. That is an option. Also you were very quick today to give me a vote of no confidence. Do you have no confidence in me? Why?

I don't have a problem with someone having the ability to break ties or be protected at night. I do have a problem with someone who can control the lynch. My vote of no confidence has nothing to with you. Go back and actually read all of my posts about the captain role yesterday.

[Loslote]

I should be on more toDay, because it's the weekend.

My thoughts on (hopefully) everyone:

Fea - Pretty sure she's innocent.

Nienna - I don't think she's a wolf anymore. First Day posting was suspicious, but that's gone now.

Sally - she hasn't been on much, but I don't think she's guilty.

Kath - I think she's innocent.

Greenie - not sure. Might be a wolf, might not.

Nerwen - same as Greenie.

Roa - I think she's innocent, but she could be a wolf.

Lommy - I don't think she's a wolf, but she still might be.

Legate - Probably innocent.

Gwath - only just showed up. I don't have an opinion yet.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

With the death of Brinn, I've lost faith in Nienna.

I'm having reindeer problems with Sally. That's just odd. I mean... since when does Sally play Prancer?

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

With the death of Brinn, I've lost faith in Nienna.

Thanks dear. Why would I want to kill Brinn? I assume that is what you are accusing me of.

Roa: I appreciate you addressing all my concerns. Even though you may have some seemingly good justifications I'm going to wait until I analyze you further letting you off the suspicion hook.

Originally Posted by Roa

Not agreeing with you and being weird are not one in the same

Yes. I know. What I did find weird is you finding suspicion where there isn't any or where good explanations have been given. This is wolf behavior to me.

Lottie: Lists are good. What is even better is if you give some reason for why you think people are as you have listed.

[Loslote]

Fea seems to have definite opinions which don't always match with what everyone else thinks. I'd think a wolf would be a bit more willing to agree with others.

My reason for suspecting Nienna Day one was because she seemed to be grasping at straws, sort of, trying to frame someone. She's not doing that anymore, and it was probably a fluke.

Sally hasn't seemed suspicious, but I'm not counting her out yet.

Kath hasn't been super active, but doesn't seem at all wolfish.

Greenie's voting for all the most popular candidates, without much discussion.

Nerwen is really slipping under the radar. She's starting major issues, but no one's noticing, just following...

Roa is very active and helpful, but that might just be trying to seem normal, I can't tell.

Lommy hasn't done anything too outstanding either way.

Legate has been helpful and not at all controversial. That could either be ordo or wolf, but I'm leaning ordo.

That's my reasoning...not too explicit, I know, but there it is...

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Nienna

Yes. I know. What I did find weird is you finding suspicion where there isn't any or where good explanations have been given. This is wolf behavior to me.

My analysis of Legate and Greenie took up two pages each in MS Word. I explained my views over and over again. What more explanation do you want?

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

My analysis of Legate and Greenie took up two pages each in MS Word. I explained my views over and over again. What more explanation do you want?

I didn't say your explanations were not thorough only that we disagreed on what behavior is suspicious. I, again, shall wait until I have time to give you a deep analysis.

Now that we've had a nice Nienna and Roa show... is anyone else around? Does anyone else have opinions?

[Nerwen]

Brinniel

Day One
#46.
Doesn't have time to play that Day; is confused about the rules; doesn't have a read on anyone; doesn't want to vote randomly; would hate to elect a wolf; might not vote at all.

And didn't.

Day Two
#299
Says she's just got a new job and will have even less time to play now. Is suspicious of those who elected Rune. Apologises for lack of participation; will have more time tomorrow.

#300
Says Loslote has done some suspicious things, but doesn't want to vote her because she's new. Says she is making a decent effort and would like to give her the benefit of the doubt. Doubts Valier and Rune would have been so obvious about it were they both wolves. Says her voting plan has now gone "out the window". Votes to lynch me for "bad vibes". Votes Roa for captain because "her dedication has proven that she would do well in such a role". Votes Kath for Night Guard due to her quietness and tendency to get killed early. Says she may check in again later (but didn't).

And that's it. Unless I've missed one, she only made three posts, and the first had no substance at all.

So– reconstructed suspicion list:

Suspicious: Nerwen.
Somewhat Suspicious: Loslote.
Neutral: Valier.
Innocent: Roa, Kath.

Two people– Kath and Roa– show up in both Brinn's and Mac's (reconstructed) lists as "innocent". If one or both of them are wolves, it's possible they're targeting people who trust them, to look good and/or to avoid being Hunted. (This is not an accusation, however: I'm currently not sure what to make of Roa, and don't have any actual reason to suspect Kath.)

Other than that, it does just seem to be a classic no-trace kill, with a nod towards framing me (and maybe Loslote, although Brinn's ambiguous about her).

*shrugs* That's all I can get out of it. At least that one didn't take long.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

With the death of Brinn, I've lost faith in Nienna.

Care to explain?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm hmm, personally I am also leaning forwards to the thought that Brinn was killed just because of a no-trace kill. I would have assumed so, because basically almost any other person (basically out of those who were participating more than Brinn) who would have been killed would have left some more significant traces in some way.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Also, once again, I call for a vote of no confidence in Nienna. Again, it's better to not allow anyone to have the full power of a captain. Even if you think they're innocent, the only way to know for sure is if you're a wolf. So without a known innocent to fill the position, we need to keep rotating for the safety of the village. It's too great a risk.

Well, since in this game, there is no way to have a known innocent, then it basically means just rotating the people. You could have just as well skipped the sentence.

Anyway, myself, personally, don't worry about keeping Nienna in position, if people are fine with it. Of course I would urge her to be careful with the power of cancelling lynch, but otherwise, I trust her.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

I don't care to be captain. I only want the captain to change everyday.

Which basically means that you want to be captain, mind you. Or, "mind you" - surely I do not have to remind you of that, you must be aware of it. You are the third person, and have been so since Day 1, apart from me and Nienna now (and okay, Rune on the first Day), who seems to have good enough support to become a Captain. So in other words, by insisting on switching the Captains, you also ask for becoming a Captain - indirectly. I think something like that happened already on Day 1:

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Oh, it occurs to me to answer my own question: I have no logistical issue with being captain. I make no promises on being a good one. Or socially adept one.

I would not be mentioning it if it was not something that I have spotted as a pattern in your behavior all the time since Day 1. The way of speaking without saying some things openly, but saying them in the way that they are still said and can be interpretated and get stuck in the reader's head without actually being totally open in the first place. Especially knowing that you are a clever player and after you said yourself that you are mastering rhetorics. That is: you asked in your first post if people have problems with being a Captain, you said nothing yourself, and then several posts later - the thing I quoted just above - you said "Oh, and by the way, I almost forgot, oh surely I could answer my own question when we are already at it, right? Well I don't really want to be a captain, but I can be one, hint hint nudge nudge?" By adding "oh, it occurs to me..." and the fact that you said it only after some time, you made it sound more careless, more "by-the-way", which means: making yourself seem "no, I don't strive for power, I almost forgot that I could be a Captain myself" while at the same time basically asking for it.

It would be a similar issue with the words "I don't care to be captain. I only want the captain to change everyday." Which is at the same time saying "oh no, I don't strive for power" and saying "vote me", for reasons I explained above when quoting that one. It's a pattern with you, all the time, that there is a difference between saying something and what it actually can mean, or what message it conveys.

I have been noticing that from the first Day, and you are basically doing it all the time, also in other cases. Last of all is the thing you just repeated now, again, and which you already said on first Day.

ToDay it was:

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

I rarely get killed by wolves. The reason being is that around Day 3 everyone decides I've been alive too long and need to be killed.

And on Day 1:

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Also, don't make a night guard, people. I'm too easy to lynch for the wolves to waste a kill on me. Put in someone who's trailless, like Brinn or Kath. Boro doesn't look likely to die either. If he's innocent, then he looks too suspicious to kill. Think about it.

And toDay again. ToDay you are saying it plainly, on Day 1 you said it more subtly. It was more like "I am speaking about NG I am speaking about NG I am speaking about NG" but the second message which is incorporated in there is "I'm too easy to lynch for the wolves to waste a kill on me". Something you are saying already on Day 1, to prepare an explanation waaay beforehand, of why you have not been killed yet?

So in other words, yes, I suspect you, Roa. It is funny that you speak about Day 3, "around Day 3 everyone decides I've been alive too long" - well, "funny" - I must say it's slightly unnerving to me too, but it is time for me to bring it forth. I did not want to state any suspicion about you earlier in case you might be innocent and the Wolves would attempt just what you said. Of course, if you are innocent, I could see the Wolves trying to frame you. But I have never had any stronger suspect than you during the two last Days, and you are also one reason - which I didn't mention yesterDay just for the reason I just mentioned (i.e. that I did not want to help the Wolves to have the reason to frame you in case you were innocent) - why I suspected Lommy. Her kind of "follower"-ish attitude to you, the way she voted for you, was one reason for my suspicion of her.

And speaking of Brinn... that also strenghtened my suspicion of you. One more thing is the way you speak of NGs, where you actively take part in selecting them. If you are a Wolf, you would, of course, know that if somebody's selected, you cannot kill him, but then, there are probably still enough people to choose from, and especially with kills like Brinn, it's not a problem.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Brinn was probably killed for the same reason that any quiet person is killed (which is why I voted her as NG on Day 1). A quiet person leaves no trail.

Again this sort of subtle "I voted her as NG on Day 1 and now she is dead, see? I was right on Day 1, eventually, she was killed". Of course that doesn't mean that you were all the time after Brinn, but mentioning this now is basically just confirming that you have nothing to do with her kill, as you protected her on the former Night. A really side-thing, probably even from your perspective, but if it's there, fine with you so you mention it.

Well. I think that would do for now. Speaking of others... I am becoming slightly uneasy with Fea, too. I am unsure about Loslote, some ways of how she speaks seem very genuine, sometimes her lists seem as if they were just randomly made by a Wolf who does not particularly know how to speak of people as he won't know whom to keep on good side and whom on bad side (her first list toDay looks like that, on the other hand her second more elaborate list looks more genuine). But I do not hold her as suspect now. I am still worried about Lommy.

I still trust Nerwen, Nienna... well, how was sally, Nienna? Anything to add to your Nightly campfire discussion?

[Thinlómien]

Rather eerie. I was the Night-talker last Night and I chose (both out of curiousity and slight schedule problems) to talk with Greenie. A few hours before the DL I asked her who she thinks will die toNight. She said: "I would have said myself, but now that Roa started suspecting me, probably not." And we started speculating. The names that appeared were Legate, Nerwen, Kath and Brinn. In the end, I insisted on making a clear guess. I said Brinn, Greenie said Kath or Brinn. So it is rather creepy to find her dead toDay...

All an all our chat was fine. I asked Greenie (I confess, not exactly without any "sinister" intentions) to summarise the end of Day2 to me before I read it. Her summary revolved mostly around the actions of Roa and Legate (which is rather understandable ) and on what people had said about me, as far as she remembered. It seemed a rather innocent series of recollections, I think a wolf would've been pressured to talk about more people, or mentioned at least one of her mates because she would've remembered what they did (if they did something). I know Legate or Roa could be Greenie's mates, but I feel it's more likely she talked about them because they both made such a show of themselves yesterDay.

On the whole, our chat made me feel better about Greenie. She seemed honest and thinking on the innocent trail of thought. I'm not entirely convinced though - I was the one to initiate all the topics and she remained rather passive, and she said once something weird about forgetting it's possible Kath's guilty and saving it with saying she always forgets she may be guilty. But even that wasn't too weird.

I see a full-size war between Legate and Roa is about to start. My current feeling towards it is to sit back, watch and grab some popcorn. I think both of them are more on the innocent side, Legate more so than Roa, but I'm so unsure I would not take sides. Besides I think this will be educational.

Then some quotes from yesterDay and toDay:

Originally Posted by Greenie

Also, I'm not entirely comfortable with having Roa as Captain. I think I already said something about this yesterDay. This has nothing to do with suspecting her (she's in the very middle of my no idea -category, in fact) nor with disliking her playing style (as I like it a lot). It's just that she's a very influential player already now, and I fear that if she was elected Captain this village might be in danger of becoming too much led by one person alone.

I don't think that'd be too much of a problem - people suspect her well enough and she would only be the Captain for one Day and Night. And remember a vocal villager only has as much power as we give her.

Originally Posted by Legate

It's not that I would not have any votes at all and then suddenly ended up a Captain. I was given trust by quite many people in the village, okay, you excluded, but others were fine with it, so what?

It's exactly the fact that 1) I didn't vote you and 2) you didn't even get the most votes, so I may be displeased. (Which is rather funny, because I did consider voting you.)

Originally Posted by Legate

Eyebrow-raising, you say? Why? And it's not that I would come and shout "yaaay I want to be Captain, make me Captain one more day!" I just asked, if you want to see, I said:
The point is rather: okay, we have this rule that Captain could do something with the lynch, but he needs to be there for second Day, I have been there for one Day, do you want to see it or not? You can see for yourself that it wasn't "come and make me a Captain again, it was so great!".

And I said quite clearly I do not want to see it at all, and it seems rather suspicious to me that someone nicely volunteers to be the test dummy for the Captain's full powers. It's a lot the same as what you accuse Roa of - subtly volunteering for the post as if you didn't want it especially although you do.

But I'm not, in fact, entirely convinced a wolf would want to be a Captain. Maybe they wouldn't mind the tie-breaking normally, but when it comes to breaking a tie between a fellow and an innocent? Either decision can be dangerous. And would they want to manipulate innocents in Nightly discussions or would they dread the extra chance to get caught? I think it's more about individual wolves (and incidentally, I would see Roa and Legate as wolves wanting to be Captains, whereas I wouldn't want to be one - not because of the tie-thing, I can do that, but because I would not want innocents questioning me during the Night-time...)

Originally Posted by Nerwen

The thing is, Roa, if Legate is a wolf, than there must have been one heck of a conspiracy going on yesterDay. A lot of planning, I mean– many of the Legate-for-Captain voters, as I recall, were the same people who voted to lynch Rune.

That's a good point, actually, but a little less valid from my point of view considering that I've started to wonder if the wolves would really be so eager to vote their fellows to be Captains...

Originally Posted by Legate

Also, the way she downplays me as the Captain - okay, now I don't want it to sound too personally, but I just think she would not be as uncertain of me, or at least, I think she would not be so worried of me being in the post of Captain for one more Day if she were innocent. Because I believe she would have good enough reading of me to determine whether I am worry-worthy or not. And so, she should not have minded that much (given what she says herself) to leave me there.

Darling, hope you don't mind me saying, but I believe you are taking it personally. I do actually consider you quite innocent at the moment so whatever my initial feeling was I do/did not mind your Captaincy, but I just don't think anyone should stay in power for two Days. Like I said, not even myself. I may trust you, but I do not trust your judgement.

And I can't really defend myself against what you said about sayings about Rune and Hakon, because I wrote what I felt/thought about them and I can't help it if you think it was wolvish.

I don't know what to make of Roa defending me so adamantly. Of course it's nice to have friends but I can't help the feeling that she'd be trying to attach herself to an innocent she agrees with and normally gets along with like that. But then again, she and I have sort of formed alliances once or twice in past games when we've thought each other innocent. Bleargh.

Valier's role surprised me, I have to say. It didn't occur to me she could be a cobbler, she looked so much more like a wolf. But I don't really mind, of course (good choice, Nienna!).

Where are Kath and Gwath?

I currently feel better about Nerwen and worse about Fea.

Originally Posted by Roa

Also, once again, I call for a vote of no confidence in Nienna. Again, it's better to not allow anyone to have the full power of a captain. Even if you think they're innocent, the only way to know for sure is if you're a wolf. So without a known innocent to fill the position, we need to keep rotating for the safety of the village. It's too great a risk.

Agreed. Although Nienna is more or less on the top of my "who's innocent" list.

Unlike Nienna, I'm not surprised to see Roa alive. True, she is very dangerous to the wolves when innocent, but she also always creates a lot of mess and contradictory feelings, so as long as the wolves think they can pull it off, it makes sense to keep her. But that, of course, is no proof she's innocent. I'm getting more and more confused about her.

I agree with Nerwen about Brinn's death, although I don't get how come the death frames her in a game where there's no seer. It is interesting what Nerwen says about Roa and Kath.

I'm off now, but I'll be back later.

[Roa_Aoife]

No, I'm not starting a war with Legate. This will be my last post of the Day. Most likely the game. I've got things to do today that will in all probability keep me past deadline.

Whoever you vote into captain, make sure it changes everyday. Only people who do not have the village's best interest at heart would want someone you can't possibly be certain of to have power over the lynch. The lynch is our weapon, don't hand it over without a fight.

We can't afford to have mistakes now. After I'm gone, the wolves who are surely trying to frame me (so look to the people who pointed out that Mac and Brinn both thought me innocent) will try to play down any suspicions I had of them or their fellows. "She was wrong about Boromir," they will say. They will conveniently for get that I was right about Rune.

Greenie first voiced more than just unease about me. Fea followed her suit. But Nienna brought it out toDay, and Legate has drawn upon the growing suspicion to get rid of his biggest accuser for him. His reasons are specious. The majority of people who answered my question answered it the same way, including him. I do not control how others vote, so all his supposed "hidden messages" in my text are a straw-man case. Remember that his case against me is constructed out of air, toMorrow.

If you think I'm being fatalistic, the most influential person in the village (if no one listens to me it doesn't matter how much I talk, I'm still not influential) has decided I'm suspicious, and enough people have suspicion of me that is ripe for harvesting. I'm not a fool. I've seen people lynched for using too many smilies, and Legate sounds like he's being reasonable even if he's not. The train has started and there's no stopping it now.

So then,

++Gwath for captain

I don't really care who gets elected as long as it's someone new everyday.

++Kath for NG

As a ranger I'd protect her, so I may as well do so as a villager

++Legate for lynch

even though it won't happen, it's important everyone knows where I stood toMorrow.

See you all in the next life (game).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, just two comments now to what's been said.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

They will conveniently for get that I was right about Rune.

Quite the contrary. Though the fact that stating that you suspect Rune was almost the first thing you said at all does not make it an argument for your innocence. Wolf-on-Wolf suspicion in the beginning is a thing that occurs from time to time, and you and Rune, of all people, don't seem to me like the ones who would have problems with doing that, if it came to that. Especially as you were both running for Captains (you from "natural" causes, which was to be expected as much as that some people would support me for a Captain, too; and Rune after he declared it himself that he wants to be one).

I don't really care who gets elected as long as it's someone new everyday.

Okay, just a note. Even if you were innocent, I think this is a rather unclever way of thinking. If you are afraid of having a Cap in power for too long, is putting totally random people into power any better? And okay, nothing against Gwath, but he certainly hasn't been around the most, and I didn't notice that you would have expressed any strong feeling of his innocentishness in order to make you vote him. (And if it's a bait for us to start suspecting Gwath after you are lynched and revealed as a Wolf, then I am not going to take it, at least. But let's see.)

Aside from that, your, indeed, as you say, "fatalistic" attitude supports it even more for me: of course, RL things aside, it's understandable if you can't be here anymore, but you avoided speaking more or replying more, which could save you from having to express much of your thoughts on others (you hardly mentioned anybody at all) and thus risking exposing fellow comrades, which is always a dilemma for a dying Wolf. I am willing to take the risk if you are innocent. I think you are not.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nienna

Thanks dear. Why would I want to kill Brinn? I assume that is what you are accusing me of.

Because you live with her and because last time you and I played together, you told me it was a good thing I had to withdraw from the game because you and your fellows planned on killing me that Night anyway, just to simplify your life.

Yeah, Brinn's death might be a setup, or it might just be a coincidental trail-less kill, but it might also be a were-Nienna covering her bases. Kill Brinn first night? No, too obvious. Wait a bit and then kill her? Sure, why not.

Like I said, it could easily not point to your guilt. Everything is circumstantial in this game anyway.

But really, dear, are you denying that it's something you'd do? Because my sweet, you're my RL Person. I know you better than that. Even if it's not something you did do, it's certainly something you would do.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Roa

Also, once again, I call for a vote of no confidence in Nienna. Again, it's better to not allow anyone to have the full power of a captain. Even if you think they're innocent, the only way to know for sure is if you're a wolf. So without a known innocent to fill the position, we need to keep rotating for the safety of the village. It's too great a risk.

Originally Posted by Legate

Which basically means that you want to be captain, mind you. Or, "mind you" - surely I do not have to remind you of that, you must be aware of it. You are the third person, and have been so since Day 1, apart from me and Nienna now (and okay, Rune on the first Day), who seems to have good enough support to become a Captain. So in other words, by insisting on switching the Captains, you also ask for becoming a Captain - indirectly.

Why is it that everytime I come up with some clever point I read the thread only to find that someone else has already stated it? Because this is exactly what I thought when I saw Roa's post. She would have known when posting that that many people would be voting her.

I don't like Roa's last post. It doesn't feel innocent. An innocent, I'd think, would be more inclined to state their opinions on people etc, whereas Roa just puts up this martyr show even when no one has voted her yet and a few have voiced suspicion of her. I don't like it. It looks somehow calculatedly hysterical.

I'm currently quite torn about Lommy. Given Roa's recent behaviour and the fact that I suspect her, Lommy's careful vote of Roa for Captaincy seems quite bad. It's not open support, it's more like calculated hesitation before voting her as Captain in order to make it look less obvious. I don't like it. But then, Lommy did seem sort of genuine when I Night-talked with her. I don't know, maybe I should know better after being royally fooled by her in live WW a couple of times, but somehow I can't see a wolf deliberately settling on Night-talking in RL rather than via PM. After all, in writing you can phrase your answers more carefully and the one you're talking to can't read your expressions, tones of voice, etc. I don't know, though: at times her phrasing of things and her tone and such didn't seem natural, but it might of course just be due to talking about WW in RL which is a thing neither of us is used to.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I don't think that'd be too much of a problem - people suspect her well enough and she would only be the Captain for one Day and Night. And remember a vocal villager only has as much power as we give her.

Actually here is another Lommy quote that can be categorised as subtle support of Roa: it says nothing at all like "I trust Roa, you should do so too!" which would be way too obvious, but instead hints vaguely at that it wouldn't be all that dangerous to vote Roa for Captain *wink wink*. So yes, if Roa is a baddie it makes Lommy look worse.

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

But really, dear, are you denying that it's something you'd do? Because my sweet, you're my RL Person. I know you better than that. Even if it's not something you did do, it's certainly something you would do.

The situation between Brinn and I is slightly different between our situation, dear. You and I lived in the same bedroom where my computer was visible to you whenever you were in the room. You also know me, and my former packmates, very well so killing you was the logical thing to do to get rid of a threat to us. Brinn and I do not live in the same room and my computer is hardly ever visible to her. She made it fine as a wolf last game without killing me. If I was a wolf and killing people who were close to me you would have been the first to go, Fea. You defy even your own logic. If people are suspected every time one of their RL friends die in the game we would get nowhere. It maybe something to keep in mind but that you can loose entire confidence in me, who you do know very well, from the death of Brinn makes me suspect you even more.

Originally Posted by Legate

how was sally, Nienna? Anything to add to your Nightly campfire discussion?

Sally's gained my full trust. She is now up there with you, Legate, on the people who are innocent list. We didn't get a chance to talk with Kath much but from what we did get to say I'm leaning innocent for her.

I'm trying to figure out what is with Roa's obsession Gwath. She voted to NG him yesterday and toDay voted him to be captain. There must have been a reason she picked him because if she wanted to give it to anyone who isn't me then it would seem like she would pick Lommy who she wanted to give it to yesterday. What is also concerning is she is making the captain to be a big deal and yet she is willing to give it to any person (and chooses Gwath who only voted for one role - NG - on time and who voted to lynch someone who was going to be killed anyway... not to mention the fact that he didn't vote at all on Day One).

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nienna

If I was a wolf and killing people who were close to me you would have been the first to go, Fea. You defy even your own logic.

I do not. You and Brinn share a small apartment. You and I are a few hundred miles apart. Mental closeness isn't nearly as troublesome in werewolf games as physical proximity.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nienna

I'm trying to figure out what is with Roa's obsession Gwath. She voted to NG him yesterday and toDay voted him to be captain. There must have been a reason she picked him because if she wanted to give it to anyone who isn't me then it would seem like she would pick Lommy who she wanted to give it to yesterday. What is also concerning is she is making the captain to be a big deal and yet she is willing to give it to any person (and chooses Gwath who only voted for one role - NG - on time and who voted to lynch someone who was going to be killed anyway... not to mention the fact that he didn't vote at all on Day One).

Well, I would be careful with this, for I wouldn't put it past Wolf-Roa to try to lay some false trails to other people. Because it is really weird for her to vote for Gwath, she likely would have realised we would consider that weird, and so maybe it's done deliberately. Well, whatever - in our current situation we can't judge it much well anyway.

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

I do not. You and Brinn share a small apartment. You and I are a few hundred miles apart. Mental closeness isn't nearly as troublesome in werewolf games as physical proximity.

Okay, just a general remark - please, people, let's try to keep RL out of this as much as possible. I know it just goes like that sometimes, but I am always strongly against putting any meta-game reasons into the game, even if I could use them myself. It's mainly because people can hardly follow the suspicions raised in there, it may be a reason for one person, but it says nothing to the rest, they can't even determine if somebody lies or is twisting things etc. because they don't know the others in RL. I know, it's a problem, I've been facing that sometimes myself, but... well, just let's try to limit it to the minimum. It really is not "proper" WW.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It really is not "proper" WW.

Well in that case, "I now suspect Nienna, but I can't tell you why because it wouldn't be proper, so I'll just keep my reasoning to myself."

Does that really make people feel better?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

But I'm not, in fact, entirely convinced a wolf would want to be a Captain. Maybe they wouldn't mind the tie-breaking normally, but when it comes to breaking a tie between a fellow and an innocent? Either decision can be dangerous. And would they want to manipulate innocents in Nightly discussions or would they dread the extra chance to get caught? I think it's more about individual wolves (and incidentally, I would see Roa and Legate as wolves wanting to be Captains, whereas I wouldn't want to be one - not because of the tie-thing, I can do that, but because I would not want innocents questioning me during the Night-time...)[LIST]

Lommy, no doubt not all wolves would want to be Captain – but in my view it would, despite your points, give a big advantage, especially the tie-breaking and lynch-cancelling– and they'd want that in a game with so many gifteds. Especially on Day One– they couldn't know they were going to get the Master Hunter that Night (EDIT: And now there are fewer gifteds but also fewer baddies, so it still holds). I'm thinking now they might in fact have fielded a backup candidate. It would make sense, anyway.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

If you think I'm being fatalistic, the most influential person in the village (if no one listens to me it doesn't matter how much I talk, I'm still not influential) has decided I'm suspicious, and enough people have suspicion of me that is ripe for harvesting. I'm not a fool. I've seen people lynched for using too many smilies, and Legate sounds like he's being reasonable even if he's not. The train has started and there's no stopping it now.

So then,

++Gwath for captain

I know I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said several times already– but honestly, I don't like the whole "poor me" tone of that post. Really, it's like blackmailing. And it seems excessive when no lynch votes had been cast except your own.

And I mean– Gwath? Gwath who?

On a more practical note, that NG vote for Kath doesn't count. You can't be a Guard two Nights in a row.

EDIT:X'd with 1 Legate and 2 Feas.
EDIT2:Added comment.

[satansaloser2005]

Here and sleepy but reading.

Quick list:

Innocent:
Kath
Legate (?)
Nerwen
Nienna
Sally
Duck
Phantom

Suspicious:
Everyone else

Gonna see who looks the easiest to analyze, as I'm slacking off and I've got time right now.


EDIT: x'd with Fea and Nerwen. Thanks for the headsup about the NG, by the way. I'll make sure I handle Kath accordingly.

[Nerwen]

What is frustrating is that yesterDay was pretty much all about Legate and toDay looks like it's going to be all about Roa.

We need to look at other people. There's three wolves, after all.

EDIT:X'd with Sally.

[Kath]

Hi all. Just to let you know I will be leaving for work at 7ish my time so am a little time limited again but I will pretty much be around solidly from now til then. I do need to read up on what happened yesterDay and what's gone on so far toDay so I might not post for a bit but I am around.

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

We need to look at other people. There's three wolves, after all.

I agree. Lets look at Fea too.

Legate: I am hesitant about Gwath for the same reason. I really hope he participates some more so we can get a better idea about him.

I'm now commencing a major look at Roa as promised.

Sally, if you haven't picked someone to analyze I think Fea doesn't have too many posts so it shouldn't take you terribly long.

Edit: x-ed with Kath.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

There is something wildly fun about the prospect of helping a male sibling shop for clothing. Not an opportunity to pass up.

And I'm not sure if I'll be back before DL.

++Lommy for Captain

++Greenie for NG

++Lynch Roa.

If she wants to consider herself a lost cause, who am I to take that away from her?

[Nerwen]

And now I have to go. I hope to be back later.

Look, I'm happy to give Nienna another go as Captain (yes, despite what Fea says about her).

++Nienna for Captain

++Gwath for Night Guard

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

On a more practical note, that NG vote for Kath doesn't count. You can't be a Guard two Nights in a row.

You're quite right.

To be more precise: no one can be voted as an NG two Nights in a row - and no one can be picked as a BG two Nights in a row. Those two are the only restrictions.


ADD ON: If Roa happens to come back toDay she can change that NG-vote to make it a valid one.

[Kath]

Mac was killed by the wolves. I must say I found this surprising. When Rikae had to drop out and Mac joined in her place I had sort of assumed that he must have some kind of role as otherwise Rikae would have just dropped out and left the game with fewer people. Because she felt it important to make sure someone took over, I just figured it meant she was something. Given the number of Hunters in this game it surprised me the wolves didn’t leave Mac be in case he was one.

Roa – look at those who defended Rune and voted Hakon as the wolves may have tried to help Rune make Captain. With three other wolves I think there are almost too many options though. Yes one might have defended Rune, but one might have been outright against him and one might have given a staunch defense of someone else and ignored Rune … it’s as good a place to start as any I just don’t think it will give you any very definitive answers. I do agree about having a new captain each Day. If the Captain is a wolf we definitely don’t want them having extra power, and even if they’re innocent there’s nothing to say that bad decisions wouldn’t be made. Analyses Boro. Good work, but I felt that Boro was being his typical ‘it’s Day 1, let’s play!’ self and so bits of poor reasoning or seemingly random actions were actually just that. He wasn’t trying yet. Analyses Legate – pretty much comes to the conclusion that he is suspicious. On reading through I can see many of her points. The seeming flip-flop on whether a captain should be allowed to gain more power or not. The going round in circles of reasoning (that’s why I always find Nog suspicious!). What she says about his dealings with Rune are interesting too. I would want to look at Legate again myself though rather than base any opinion on another’s analysis. That said I don’t feel Roa was twisting anything to her point. When she saw a reasonable point she allowed it to remain one. Ah I see why Roa is suspicious –she think Legate is trying to retain the captaincy. Not sure about that but I can see where she’s coming from. Analyses Greenie – interesting if she really did think one way for Hakon and the other for Rune if they did the same thing, though of course a lot can depend on knowing the person. We all know Rune is a bold player. I for one don’t know Hakon at all. Defends Lommy but maybe only because Legate was suspecting her.

Valier – turned out to be the Cobbler. I can see why Fea was suspicious of her. She said the posts were ‘synthetic’ I think, and that’s about the right word. Why mention Boro? As we now know Boro was innocent it seems like she’s trying to throw suspicion at him. None of the statements really end. ‘I must also say that I was quite surprised at Rune being a wolf.’ … because? Interesting that the Cobbler would want a powerful captain. I suppose whether wolf or innocent the captain could potentially cause chaos, always interesting to a cobbler.

Fea – suspects Valier. Votes Roa for speaking sense. Given that I agree about the captain issue I can understand this. I have just realised what I’ve just written about captains exactly echo’s what Fea said. Says she didn’t trust Legate but is now feeling better about him – I found the same thing. Very non committal. Says nice things about Nienna.

Legate – did no one else wonder about Mac’s role before he died? Legate seems to assume that Mac was a trailless kill, or perhaps had Ranger hinted (I think that’s what he’s getting at). On the side of actually letting a Captain have some powers. I can see the interest in seeing how the role would work but I think it’s too dangerous. Defends his reasoning. I can see his point, yes whatever a captain did s/he would have to answer for it the next Day, the trouble is that by that Day the damage would already have been done. Fairly sound defence here. Wants to look at Lottie and Valier as they voted Rune for captain. Starts to get a bit cross. A little early to be getting so defensive but he is a major figure right now so most people are focusing on him. Suspects Lommy for not flip flopping enough and being worried about him .Also seems too confident about Hakon being innocent. Takes himself out of the running for captain by voting Nienna.

Nienna – confused by Fea’s vote as she wants either to stick with a captain or not have one. I think it would be a shame to just not have one, having more people being voted for and a role that much of the discussion centres round has really opened things up I feel. But I still wouldn’t want to keep a captain long enough to give them that much power. Defends (ish) Legate and suspects Fea. Same point as me about doing own analysis not relying on someone elses. Analyses Nerwen (why?) and concludes she seems innocent. Thinks only an innocent should be captain and as she thinks Legate is the person she sees as most innocent he should stay captain. Fair reasoning, I just worry about the power. Thinks Valier and Lottie suspicious – again like everyone else I think. Thinks Valier bandwaggoned and has no substance.

Lottie – a list post but with nothing behind it. Voted Rune for captain because he seemed confident. I think that’s fairly good reasoning actually. If you’re going to have a captain who has the power to break ties etc you do want someone who will be involved and around at the deadline and who won’t waste the chance.

Sally – thinks Brinn is a wolf, just a feeling. Thinks Rune might have been trying to frame Valier so doesn’t want to vote for her. Also some suspicion of Lottie but again doesn’t want to lynch her because she’s new. Asks to be talked with. Interesting but I did talk with her and she came across as very innocent.

Nerwen – round in circles about how the wolves might be acting. Lists the votes to look for connections. Doesn’t really seem to go anywhere with that. By the way Nerwen, I did vote on Day 1. Analyses Mac and ends up thinking that it actually wasn’t a trailless kill but might be being used to try and push suspicion on people. I think it a little odd that she wanted to get a new lynch candidate in.

Brinn – now this wolf kill I do think was simply a trailless one. (Sorry, jumping to the next Day here a bit.) With the knowledge that she wouldn’t be around much I think it was an easy and somewhat mean kill. Said she would have suspected Rune the Day before, maybe but then it’s always easier to say that in hindsight. Thinks Lottie is a little suspicious but wants to leave her as she’s a newbie. Fair enough. Thinks Valier would not have communicated so much with Rune if also a wolf so won’t vote her. Votes Nerwen due to bad vibes. Not great reasoning but she was playing catch up.

Gwath – complains about people putting in lists to supplement their post count. Might have been a dig at Nerwen. Actually says what I’d have been thinking if around that Day, why not lynch Boro anyway and only lose one person rather than two. But then no one really knew what was going on with that anyway.

Lommy – I think there’s a little dig at Roa there. Thinks Legate is being too careful. On this occasion I disagree. Day 1 I didn’t like his playing style, but having read through his Day 2 posts I feel that they’re actually reasonable and well made points. Good reasons from Lommy for not wanting him to remain captain though. Again this assumption that Mac was a no trace kill. Thinks Valier suspicious. Says she may vote Roa for captain but worries that once she is captain no one will want her to stop being captain. Interesting idea actually, especially as there is a little contingent that would like to see a stable captain. Interesting use of the night guard role. Lottie and Valier suspicious, same reasons as most others.

Greenie – takes Legate’s reasoning for her own about walking the line on Rune. I mean fair enough, yes you could want someone to just be in the village without wanting them to be captain. Odd. Says she’d be fine with keeping Legate as captain but also says that she’s not convinced about seeing a captain with full powers. Yet surely if Legate stayed captain that Day he’d have ended up with full powers? Still doesn’t actually answer about that even when asked directly. Bit worried about Lottie. Thinks she personally wouldn’t have found Valier suspicious but thanks to everyone else now does. Worried about Roa and Lommy.

Captain:
Fea – Roa
Brinn – Roa
Lommy – Roa
Nienna – Legate
Sally – Nienna
Roa – Lommy
Nerwen - Nienna
Greenie – Nienna
Valier – Legate
Legate - Nienna

Night guard:
Brinn – Kath
Lommy – Nerwen
Fea – Lommy
Sally – Kath
Nienna – Nerwen
Roa - Gwath
Nerwen - sally
Valier – Lommy
Greenie – Kath
Legate – Nerwen
Gwath - Lommy

Lynch:
Brinn – Nerwen
Lommy – Valier
Roa – Legate
Nienna – Valier
Nerwen - Lottie
Valier – Lottie
Sally – Lottie
Greenie – Valier

Right, off to get some food now. Will return and have a (quick!) look at toDay and then vote and go!

[Nerwen]

While I am not yet fully committed to Roa's being a wolf (honestly, I'm not sure it's ever a good idea to trust Legate completely), I must say Fea's last post does have a distinct throwing-your-mate-under-the-bus look to it. So I agree, Fea needs looking at too.

Also, now that we know the Night Traitor helped elect Rune, we need to think about how likely it is that she was the only other baddie involved (since that also answers the question of whether Loslote is a wolf or not). It's possible, since Valier and Rune had perhaps managed to guess each other other's identities – he voted her for NG, anyway.

Which reminds me– I meant to comment on this before:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien, replying to Legate

It's exactly the fact that 1) I didn't vote you and 2) you didn't even get the most votes, so I may be displeased.

Considering that a.) the party who got the most votes was Runewolf, and b.) it was only because he voted for himself... this struck me as quite funny.

That's all from me for the moment. I'm not ready to cast a lynch-vote yet– hopefully I'll be back in time for that.

EDIT:X'd with Kath and Nogrod.

[Kath]

Sorry, while I busy, could someone possibly put up a vote tally so far?

[Nerwen]

Vote Tally

Captain
Roa –> Gwath
Fea –> Lommy
Nerwen –> Nienna

Guard
Roa –> Kath (Invalid vote)
Fea –> Greenie
Nerwen –> Gwath

Lynch
Roa –> Legate
Fea –> Roa

[Kath]

I'm sorry, I'm out of time. If that major grammatical mistake in my last post doesn't make it clear enough that I'm rushing nothing else will! So I have to vote now.

++ LOMMY for Captain

Because I don't want the same Captain two Days in a row I'd rather not vote Nienna despite feeling some trust for her. I didn't agree with Legate's points on Lommy and don't think her that suspicious so I'd like to see her as Captain.

++ FEA for night guard

She hasn't been all that involved and I'd like to see her around for a bit longer.

++ GREENIE

From my analysis of yesterDay she was the one I found myself the most suspicious of because while she is usually fairly self-sufficient when it comes to voting and making judgements of people she felt to be following the crowd a lot.

Anyway, I'm off now.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kath

By the way Nerwen, I did vote on Day 1

Sorry, I must have missed it. Who did you vote for?

Originally Posted by Kath

I think it a little odd that she wanted to get a new lynch candidate in.

I brought up Loslote, if that's what you mean, because I thought either she or Valier could be evil, and because I didn't want the voting to end up as a single bandwagon. What's wrong with that?

EDIT:X'd with Kath.

[Nienna]

Sally: What think you about Kath?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'm back much sooner than expected.

But tomorrow's my mama's birthday and my present for her isn't done (er... isn't started) so my afternoon's booked, since I don't want to work on it when she's here to see.

So I'll check in, but don't expect too much activity.

[satansaloser2005]

Nienna: I think she's okay. In fact....


++Kath for Captain

I won't complain if Nienna stays in, but if not her I think Kath would be okay too.

++Guard Nienna



I also think I'm going to lunch. Back later, and I'll tell you some stuffs about Lottie.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

But I'm not, in fact, entirely convinced a wolf would want to be a Captain. Maybe they wouldn't mind the tie-breaking normally, but when it comes to breaking a tie between a fellow and an innocent? Either decision can be dangerous. And would they want to manipulate innocents in Nightly discussions or would they dread the extra chance to get caught? I think it's more about individual wolves (and incidentally, I would see Roa and Legate as wolves wanting to be Captains, whereas I wouldn't want to be one - not because of the tie-thing, I can do that, but because I would not want innocents questioning me during the Night-time...).

Here's my take: the wolves don't need to get one of their number into the Captain at the beginning of the game, since the innocents are more than likely to kill each other anyway - but as the game progresses, it will become more and more important for the wolves to have that lynch-canceling, tie-breaking power of a Captain. Maybe it's not a problem now, but it certainly will be in a Day or two. We'll have to be extra careful who we elect.

Sorry I've been gone so much.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, just a note. Even if you were innocent, I think this is a rather unclever way of thinking. If you are afraid of having a Cap in power for too long, is putting totally random people into power any better? And okay, nothing against Gwath, but he certainly hasn't been around the most, and I didn't notice that you would have expressed any strong feeling of his innocentishness in order to make you vote him. (And if it's a bait for us to start suspecting Gwath after you are lynched and revealed as a Wolf, then I am not going to take it, at least. But let's see.)

Ha ha. Seems like it would be a waste to endow with Captain powers someone who's not likely to a) be around enough to be able to use said powers in an informed way or b) even be around at DL to put said powers to use. Right? But consider this - while it may look for all the world like Roa is trying to establish some sort of artificial, damning ties with another player (me), she may also be just trying to force me to be more involved. As you can see, it's working.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I also think I'm going to lunch. Back later, and I'll tell you some stuffs about Lottie.

Hurry up, I'm curious.

[Nienna]

Roa: Day One

3. Starts the game on a productive note; asks people if they don’t want to be captain or NG
12. Wonders where the village is
22. Asks Rune why he wants to be captain; she has no logistical problem with being captain – I agree with Legate on this post… it seems almost like she set herself up to then answer the question
23. Finds Rune suspicious because he seems so eager
28. Is confused by Boro’s use of quotes
41. Asks Boro what other motive Fea could have for adding “nothing more complicated than that” to her retraction post where she used Boro to vote and retract. This seems like it could be a subtle defense of a packmate
55.

Originally Posted by Roa

A wolf could always try bluffing. And seeing as there are four wolves, they can try out more than one strategy to get one of themselves picked. I, for one, don’t believe that people who want power should have it. But a wolf could always be subtle: “Sure, you could vote for me, if you want… not that I care, or anything…”

This is eerily similar to what actually happened... like it could be a coincidence but it sounds like insider knowledge; comments about Boro’s behavior; says he didn’t really answer her and asks again
56. Another where is everyone post
60. Asks me a bunch of questions like who I suspect, etc.
62. Is probably going to vote someone who isn’t here for captain so that they can’t do any damage – I don’t particularly like this logic; Boro’s her top suspect, comments that no one is posting
63. Might actually vote someone who isn’t around as NG as apposed to captain I think
67. Defends her suspicion of Boro
72. Says that an innocent villager would act really helpful and make a lot of sense (just like Val suggests a wolf would do to get elected captain) and she says that if we start lynching people who are helpful we wouldn’t get anywhere – This seems like a “please don’t lynch me for being a helpful wolf because I could be a helpful ordo"
75. Frustrated by lack of posts, doesn’t want to lynch Boro because he is posting, defends Fea
93. Analyzes Nerwen: I doesn’t seem like she finds her suspicious
102. Analyzes Rune: says the most suspicious thing is his ploy for captain but says it seems like it might be too obvious for a wolf. Here’s the quote:

Originally Posted by Roa

It seems really obvious, almost too obvious for a wolf ploy, but then, I’ve pulled obvious stunts as a wolf before and gotten away with it…)

… The last sentence concerns me and it seems like she is trying to feel out how others will take him before deciding that way she can go either way and say it is wolfish or too bold to be a wolf.
103. Zil: only concerned that he isn’t around
112. Fea: says her posts are fine, expects a little more from her, wonders why she isn’t being aggressive. Seems a bit noncommittal
114: Strange logic about picking someone who isn’t around as captain. She seems to think that people who aren’t around for Day wouldn’t be around for Night so it would be safe to give the captaincy to them
125. Thinks that there might be a quiet wolf hiding, asks Rune why he wants to be captain
127. Votes to guard Brinn because “if I was a wolf, I'd kill her.” – and now Brinn is dead
131. Sally: finds her strange for not expanding on any of her suspicions
133. Suspects Boro and Hakon
145. Still suspects Hakon for being weird
153. Doesn’t trust Rune enough to make him captain so votes Legate for captain
159. In a matter of 26 posts goes from not even having Rune on her suspicion list to voting to lynch him (3 hours before deadline). She even said in 133 that she likes having 3 top suspects but could only come up with Boro and Hakon.
193. Thinks captains should be changed regularly
195. Doesn’t like Lottie jumping on something Val said
201. Doesn’t want people to NG her because she is too suspicious to be killed at night
204. Gives her suspicion of Rune after voting him
253. Jumps on Boro again

Day 2 to follow depending on how much time I have

Edit: x-ed with Gwath x3