Werewolf CXII - Dueling Wizards III - The Living Thread

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ok, I now spent some time going through the posts of the players who were more out of spotlight...

Brinniel - was very scarce on Day 1, basically appeared, was against no-lynch policy, and voted Loslote, with the note that be the first to advocate a no-lynch could be a good cover for a baddie. On Day 2, discussed Morsul's death, also said that she was inclined to see Boro as innocent as his behavior would be risky for a baddie. Mentioned that both Boro and Eönwë were good possible options for the Wolves. After the Zilcident, started suspecting Nerwen:

Originally Posted by Brinniel

More seem to find Inzil's reaction worrisome, but I'm more worried about Nerwen. I didn't really see his comment as a slip-up and she seems to be pulling this idea out of hat and letting the rest of the village run with it.

She eventually voted her as well. YesterDay a bit and toDay more, she engaged in the debate on the Dead thread. Her contributions to that topic seemed like genuinely interested, if not always very much to the point. Objectively, her appearances have been infrequent, although whenever she appeared, she had something to say. If there is anything suspicious about her, it would be the fact that she has basically remained on the outskirts of the debate.

Lalaith - actually posted a lot more than I thought, at least in quantity of posts. Not so much on first Day, though. She voted Nerwen, based on:

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Because she's been a bit enigmatic toDay, because if she's bad she's scary and if she's good she'll be an asset to the dead thread.

On Day 2, thought Morsul was probably killed because he was thought innocent. Discussed the Wolf-killed-by-EW theory a bit (dismissing it), mentioned me, Brinniel, Mithalwen and later also Lommy as "sensible and thus feeling non-wolfish". She didn't get where the "Eönwë has changed" argument came from, and was...

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Uncomfortable, in varying degrees, with Nerwen, Eomer, Boro (reasons stated elsewhere) - also Lottie and Zil - they seem helpful but I'm not feeling it.

I actually had to look back for the "reasons stated elsewhere" - they are apparently that they were proposing the idea of no Wolf on Night 1. That is fairly random, if you ask me, especially since next she uses the term "my five main suspects" as if it were a big thing. She eventually voted Eomer.
ToDay, she participated in the Dead List suggestions, and has been posting a lot of thoughts which may be going on as I type this. From what I have seen, however, there were many points which seemed helpful. If there is anything suspicous about her, it would be her list of suspects on Day 2 which sort of appeared out of nowhere (resp. the reasoning was quite random).

Mith - her Day 1 was straight going for Lottie, Day 2 didn't apparently drop it but was suspicious of Inzil for downplaying looking at Morsul and for voting Nerwen. She has been posting some quite reasonable things which make her look good to me, such as:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

The important thing as I recall was to limit the questions so that the dead had a multiple choice of votes to allow for their special knowledge. We don't want to mess up lynching a wolf to know x in the dead thread was an ordo.

Same thing toDay about the alphabetical order etc. (unless there was some hidden purpose behind that, like clumping some Wolves into a fitting cathegory)
If there was anything potentially Wolfish about her, then it would be only one of the latter posts, which is basically "nobody would make me a Wolf":

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Oh come on Eomer. Since when have I been an excellent wolf choice? I have only survived once which was a fluke. Apart from being founder member with darling Anguirel of the Fenris pack, my main claim to fame was revealing out of sheer boredom.. Noone in their right mind would actually choose me.

But that is about it.

Sally - has missed Day 1, on Day 2 had a fairly pessimistic ouverture, dismissed Morsul's kill as probably random first kill, and posted very little apart from that. The main post of any content which seems objectively relevant is this, and I can quote in full:

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

So all of the chatter about Dun bothers me more than Dun's own words. My intention at this point is to take a stab at someone in that conversation, though at this point, that's sort of everyone.

In less vague news, my gut reaction is to not trust Lottie.

As one more point, why are we talking about the EW potentially killing his or her own wolf? I fail to see how the wizard could benefit from this in any way. There is a wolf, and the wolf killed Morsul.

This all actually sounds quite genuine, but most of the rest of her posts are effectively just one-liners (even though they are part of conversation). Also, apparently tried to vote just before DL and failed. ToDay, she still scolded those who spread the vote in the beginning, but also not much else after that. If there is anything suspicious about her, it would be that.

Summa summarum, in case of all of those, there isn't really enough for me to ring an alarm as far as I am concerned. I would definitely prefer to read more from all of those, except Lalaith has already started, which is good.

Ok, I spent some time with this, so off to check what's been happening on the thread, if anything.

EDIT: x-posted with lots

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Uh-huh. And I should also take a look at Shasta, for that matter. But he has been absent possibly even more than sally.

Also, a pity Pervinca had to drop (to be honest, this probably wasn't the easiest game to start with - but so hope she might come back for some other game...)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Btw. Legate: could you tell us what you were thinking with this one (on Lommy):
In the end of the Day1 you were a strong advocate of the no-lynch policy and actually tried to achieve it - or at least tried to make an impression you tried to achieve it, as you voted already three minutes before the DL and knew there were people still voting, but commented on your vote that it "should be a tie". And here you then say Lommy's driving for a lynch made her look more innocent?

So what has changed, your loyalties or something else?

I meant on Day 2, when she warned us from repeating that.

[Nogrod]

Night4

Aphrodite (A): Knock-Knock
Bandobras, Captain, Daisy, Evil, (B, C, D, E) : Who’s there?
A: A Living Dead!
B & C: Oh it’s you.
D & E: Welcome.
A: So?
B: So what?
A: What shall we do?
C: Just vote to see D’s role.
D: And then vote to empower a person in the Living Thread from one of the lists here that indicate that B was an innocent on D2.
E: But which of these lists do you choose? That’s the question… *grins*
B: Ignore him.
C: I’ve actually stopped following the thread. It’s boring.
D: There’s nothing else to do though.
E: Get bored my friends… don’t vote… I’d like to do it for you around the Deadline.
B: If we have nothing else to do, then actually be my guest.
C: I don’t fancy either reading all the pages just to tell them something that is of no importance.
D: We do have a duty to help them, you know?
E: Why bother my friends? They don’t deserve your aid.
B: I might agree with you on this issue – evil!
C: I think I have RL-stuff to do.
D: Doggone it…
A: But couldn’t we play the game? Try to find out the villains? Put our heads together with superior information and lead the village to victory?
B: They don’t listen.
C: They think they know better, cretins.
D: It’s hard you see…
E: There is no way you can deliver a message of any importance to them my dear A. You’re totally doomed to play a game that only takes their ability to see as a measure of everything – you may know more here, but there is no way you can make them listen to you as they think they know what to do...
A: Oh, crap. Let’s go to sleep then. I did have a good book to read instead of following this game...

[Nogrod]

Day5

Aphrodite (A): Knock-Knock
Bandobras, Captain, Daisy, Evil, Fiend, Gandalf (B, C, D, E, F, G) : Who’s there?
A: A Living Dead!
B & C: Oh it’s you.
D & E: Welcome.
F & G: And…
A: Nice to be here. What have you been up to?
B: Well…
C: Not much…
D: Actually…
E: More or less…
F: Nothing.
G: But there is no choice as some of those idiots insist on acting on what we do.
A: And that is?
F: Nothing serious my friend…
B: Shut up, we know you’re a wolf F.
C: Quit smiling.
D: Evil!
E: Hehe…
G: We’ll get you too one Day you mischievous cretin!
F: Well, you can’t signal my guilt in many days to come anyway.
D: Frustrating, I’ll tell you.
C: You see…
A: I see.
B: Looking back at how a known wolf (to us) F acted on Dx and E on Dy, we’re pretty solid that J is either a wolf or the EW herself.
C: And we know these things, the villagers don’t…
D: Some of the villagers were actually on the right track and voted for her yesterday…
G: But we had to tell them whether D was innocent or not…
B: Or that was how they were reading it.
C: Or some of them were claiming they should read it.
D: Although there was a debate whether they should read the result from a list made by H or the one by I – as the other was made with their birthday-order and the other in the order of their beauty.
E: Hehe…
F: *Smirk* They also debated where the uneven number should go as seven doesn’t divide into three so nicely – and there were two different solutions offered…
G: Ohh, shut up!
B: And D was voted down by E and F – and we know F is a wolf and are almost sure E is one too.
A: So you didn’t follow the procedure last Night?
B: Of course not.
C: It was so obvious…
D: But we wanted to be sure.
E: Well, we tried to outvote you.
F: We did.
G: But we’re always going to be the majority here…
B: Did you hear K withdrew from the game?
C: So?
D: Well how about the list then?
E: Teehee…
F: Pick your choise… *grins*
B: But I already voted…
C: Will G be actually coming back?
D: Will he notice that part in the thread? I thought he said he was going to be in a hurry and just plain vote…
E: Teehee…
F: *grins*

[Nogrod]

Sorry.

It felt too much fun to figure out a game in the Dead Thread with "our instructions".

Let them be and help as as well as they can - and let us fight here.

PS. And like I said, I am up to trying this info-channeling toDay - there's probably little they know or can do toDay. But sooner or later they start to know things more than we do, and then we should not hinder or discourage them from helping us as best as they can.

EDIT: Btw. I see the logic of the Scenario 2 doesn't actually hold... but well, who cares. It was meant more to be fun and pointig a possiböle problems than being exactly logical to the end...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I was thinking it was taking way too long for Nogrod to give the village a reason to lynch him.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I think I want to give Legate a re-read today if I get time. He is one of the ones who have seemingly fought to keep discussion on the dead thread and not on who the wolves are (at least, in my opinion).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Sorry.

It felt too much fun to figure out a game in the Dead Thread with "our instructions".

*shudders*
For your information, I was glaring at the screen in disbelief for quite a while after seeing this.

Let them be and help as as well as they can - and let us fight here.

PS. And like I said, I am up to trying this info-channeling toDay - there's probably little they know or can do toDay. But sooner or later they start to know things more than we do, and then we should not hinder or discourage them from helping us as best as they can.

Well, yes. I mean we can always adjust things later. But please let's not try to discredit the option now. I mean disagreeing, testing is one thing, sabotage is another.

I was on the Dead Thread in one of the previous games, so it isn't like I don't know what it looks like there. But the last time, the thing that was frustrating there was exactly when the Living could not agree on anything.

Aanyway. It is getting later here. Not that I am in a hurry in the objective sense, but I think still going to sleep at reasonable hour would be nice.

I still wanted to take a closer look at Nerwen. And maybe also at others.

Btw, also wanted to remark on this, but got distracted:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The problem is that it's pretty hard to draw conclusions from there as baddies as well as goodies might have jumped on the band-wagon in the end - the former to blend in and the latter to secure there is no draw on votes.

That being said I'm a bit uneasy with how easily people jumped on Zil-wagon with quite little to argue for it (Pervinca might be pardoned - and s/he (?) voted quite early only to tie Zil with others in the tally). Sure, I myself somewhat suspected him, but I tend to do that everytime we play, so I'd not take that as a reason to actually vote for him, at least myself.

The bandwagon is actually quite an interesting thing indeed. Now obviously we can discount Pervinca, but that makes it interesting to consider when and who joined that bandwagon. I would like to go through it one more time as well. And now I am actually also really interested in learning Inzil's role, also after I have been re-reading a lot of the thread - many things could come into different light if we know his role. So one more reason to actually learn this.

EDIT: x-ed with Eomer and Shasta

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And now I am actually also really interested in learning Inzil's role, also after I have been re-reading a lot of the thread - many things could come into different light if we know his role. So one more reason to actually learn this.

Agreed.

I'm for it toDay as well. Not as a principle, and not for several Days. There's only three of them there and so not much to find out yet (two Night-kills and one lynch only).

We just need to agree, rather sooner than later, which "table" we'd wish to be used. Nerwen's list seems to be the latest. Is that good for everyone (Pervinca excluded)?

I'll copy it here.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Proposed Empowerment List

ZIL = PREY
Boromir88
Brinniel
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Eönwë
Lalaith

ZIL = PREDATOR
Legate of Amon Lanc
Loslote
Mithalwen
Nerwen

NONE OF THE ABOVE
Nogrod
(Pervinca Took)
satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin

[Loslote]

Sorry I only showed up so late in the Day! I'm happy with the plan as stated mostly recently by Lalaith, and I would suggest we stop making changes now, to prevent ourselves from pulling the rug out from under the feet of the Dead.

I am realizing now how frustrating it is not to be able to rely on my impressions from previous Days. For example, I was thinking to myself that Nog seemed more innocent with how consistent his opinion on the Dead Thread is, and with how he's continued to be consistent despite being the only person with that opinion - when I realized that an innocent Nog could have started down that path, and a newly evil Nog would have then been forced to keep it up, so the consistency tells us nothing.

I do think Brinn, and to a lesser extentShasta and Sally, seem a reserved. Shasta's been sick, and Sally just hasn't been around much, but Brinn has been here and still comes off as holding back from the fray, which is a bit of a red flag, EW-wise.

However, Brinn has also focused mostly on actual wolf-hunting, where I might expect the EW to harp on the Dead Thread a little more - come off as helpful while not actually tying themself to the wolves in any way. So I'm on the fence about her.

I don't like that Eönwë keeps focusing on the Dead Thread, but since it was his plan to begin with, I could see where he might feel obligated to keep talking about it. I do suspect him still, I think his posts these past two Days have come off as more self-aware, but again, that could just be because he feels defensive of his Dead Thread plan. I'm not sure. I don't trust him, though.

I've felt pretty good about Legate, but I do see what Shasta is saying about him focusing maybe overly much on the Dead Thread. I'll have to take more of a look at that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Agreed.

I'm for it toDay as well. Not as a principle, and not for several Days. There's only three of them there and so not much to find out yet (two Night-kills and one lynch only).

We just need to agree, rather sooner than later, which "table" we'd wish to be used. Nerwen's list seems to be the latest. Is that good for everyone (Pervinca excluded)?

I'll copy it here.

I thought we have agreed on this hours and hours ago! That was why I was against casting any doubt on it again. Now would be late! (Like, the Dead might have gone to sleep for all we know.)

[Lalaith]

Yes please lets just say we've all agreed on it and lets stop talking about it...

I am torn on my voting. As I said before, I'd like to vote for Boro but don't want to do it in his absence. And I'd like to see some more people turning up, and the talk to turn to hunting wolves.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Legate's a curious one; like, he's posted a lot (as usual) and I've quite enjoyed his thoughts (again, as usual) but I don't see that he's actually suspected a single person - apart from Boro, who obviously was doing things to attract attention. I can't remember if this is normal for Legate, or if he's trying to be present without being controversial.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I can't remember if this is normal for Legate, or if he's trying to be present without being controversial.

There is actually a deeper truth in this than just how is it with Legate. Most baddies like to be agreeable and avoid suspecting anyone - or at least several people openly or heavily (especially if they are around) .

Sure there are exceptions to the rule, but most of the time it holds.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I thought we have agreed on this hours and hours ago! That was why I was against casting any doubt on it again. Now would be late! (Like, the Dead might have gone to sleep for all we know.)

cf my post 385 Four Hours ago...for the love of Eru... *muttering* if they can put man on the Moon, why can't they put all of them up there...

[satansaloser2005]

Not caught up, but FYI, I should be home for good in about 30 minutes. Back soon.

[Nogrod]

Just getting my gut feelings in order...

Brinn doesn't post a loads but posts and is making sense. I like it. Same goes more or less with Lalaith (we need to open a Sancerre one Day!). Now both could be evil as well, but they are not ringing any evil-bells in my mind, at least yet.

Shasta and Mith post less - especially less of substance (whatever that is - let's not go back to that discussion) but Shasta makes me more worried than Mith. That is kind of normal and I wouldn't make any strong inferences on that either way.

Sally I believe to be innocent, at least now - but a pretty decent turn-candidate as well. So one to truly watch, but probably not evil yet...

Nerwen is my eternal enigma - I always suspect her (most of the times being correct - I feel!) and I know she's good in this. But does that merit a vote as itself? Probably not at this stage.

Eomer I find hard to read - which is normal as well. On average I see him positively as trying to stir things a little - but maybe his carefulness should warn me? Anyway, he's one I might consider voting because of his laid back stirring of the pot.

Legate I have a bad feeling with even if I can't quite point into any exact thing. He's being his normal self-doubting and pondering self but has also kind of laid low being almost over-round-about. One of my possible vote-candidates.

I'm not the first one to notice Boro's game has been a bit odd - and with the self-vote episode (which was actually pretty safe for him) it does look weird at some points. At the same time, I could see an innocent Boro taking the fun-road into the game and just enjoy that kind of a game. The problem is that he could be turned and then be pretty hard to lynch.

So Lottie and Eönwe then? Both have a tendency to try and steer the game, and I get somewhat evil vibes from both with the way they play. Lottie has been more easy toDay (which could just be wisdom), Eönwe is the kind of very cool and intelligent driver / second Phantom or the one who called the evil to take him into her service (or was given this role by the EW on N1).

[Eönwë]

Got delayed a bit longer than I'd hoped. Catching up now.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm sure the GW has thought about this a lot more than I have, but can we expect a visitor to go straight into the dead thread tomorrow? Seems like that role is made to be used quickly. I'm pleased that we seem to be getting through a day without the duel; think it benefits the good side. It's possible that us ordos are hugely outnumbered just now, though maybe more likely that the GW and the EW, at least once, picked the same person.

[Eönwë]

Ok, well since Wizard tactics have been discussed a bit at this point, I'm just going to say it outright: I think if the GW knows who the EW is, they should really think about dueling soon.

Our worst-case scenario at this point is 4 baddies and 8 goodies. That means that if we don't get rid of the EW, we would have to lynch (or hunter-kill, or visitor-pick) a wolf both toDay (or toNight) and toMorrow (or toMorrow Night) to not lose the game. And if it's not the worst-case scenario, stopping the EW from creating any more wolves would be really good.

[Nerwen]

Hello, all. And farewell, Pervinca.. This was probably not the easiest game to start off with- they're usually not this complicated. Hope you'll give it another try sometime!

Thoughts-

Nogrod's continued preoccupation with the Dead is really starting to raise flags for me. When I checked out earlier I thought the matter had settled, and then to find him still banging on about it hours later...

Then there's Legate-a few people (including Nogrod) have mentioned him as being slightly "off" toDay, and that a bit of a vibe I was getting myself with his Lommyalysis- especially as regards myself, as though he was quietly sounding people out as to whether they'd "like" to suspect me. But that could be paranoia on my part. Player analyses do lend themselves to that kind of thing, after all.
Edit: x'd since Nog.

[Nogrod]

Sorry to be this kind of an Owl of Minerva only flying after the fact - but with some hindsight (which I myself did acquire just now thinking about it) I could say that those who were very well on top of the rules on D1 and suggested a no-lynch policy are to me somewhat suspicious now.

I mean whatever we think about the possibility of the Dead Thread to help us, a no-lynch on D1 certainly robbed us one vote from them. And by default that should be the aim of the evil-side - especially as they didn't know beforehand, how the discussion on the Dead-vote issue would go on D1.

Now did the evil-ones saw this already beforehand or did they (or one of them - granting there was a wolf and an EW already on D1 which seems plausible) realize it only during the Day1?


Here are the one's I'd raise my eyebrow on...

Lottie was strongly for a no-lynch early on - and seemed to be on top of things. She voted to bring a tie.

Eomer is the same but disappears with no vote at all.

Legate was kind of going to-and-fro and ended up favouring no-vote (and tried to help organize it)

Eönwe first said no lynch is a fee ride for the wolves but then ended up suggesting a no lynch deal with his rigid system of tying the dead vote (the benefits of which he was actually cancelling with the no-lynch!).

Boro was a vocal - even literary supporter of a lynch unless the time came - and saved Lottie from lynching by voting himself.

My vote might go for one of these - and I believe there is at least one - if not two baddies in here. But also several innocents. But who is who?


PS. I'm trying to go to sleep toNight a bit earlier as well (being 2AM right now).


EDIT: X'd with Eönwe & Nerwen

EDIT2: Added: the benefits of (which he was actually cancelling with the no-lynch!) to make the point clearer

[Eönwë]

In other words, while having a Visitor or two may be useful, keeping the EW alive might mean that we might not even get to a point where the knowledge of the Dead Thread can save us.

edit: x-ed with Nerwen and Nog.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I went through some stuff and now I am trying to sort my thoughts. I managed to read Nerwen's posts; the thing is, she's been posting a lot, but like 90% of it is providing reference (especially on Day 1). That makes her look helpful and all, but objectively, it doesn't really say anything. Also she was somewhat wishy-washy on her vote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

So, I'm probably going to vote Zil, not so much for the "slip" as for his reaction to my rather low-key probing, also for voting me with what frankly looks to me like forced suspicion.

My problem here is that I fear my judgement may be coloured by a.) the fact that it's me he's been voting and b.) the fact his playing style tends to be rather creepy regardless of role. Hmmn.

Otherwise, my mind isn't still at ease about Boro, but he hasn't really been around. He was also very late on the Zil bandwagon, which could be a good spot for a Wolf to simply hide a vote. (And if Zil was a Wolf, and Boro as well, then it would probably also be a place to simply dump a vote since the bandwagon was practically finished at that point.)

If I am looking at the votes, Eönwë's vote has a similar quality. The earlier votes for Zil were still at the time when they actually mattered (it could have changed things), so that is a different case and what they meant would show better once we know Zil's role. At the same time, any of the early votes for separate people could have been throwaway, but they still commited to a statement, unlike the votes added to already big pile of other votes.

I think I will now do some summary and try to figure out whom to vote. It's pretty difficult when there is no known role, since practically everything can be interpreted both ways.

EDIT: x-ed with some Eönwës, Nerwen, and Nogrod

[Nogrod]

Eönwe: please stop talking about Wizards and Visitors. Talk of people to vote toDay - and why exactly them.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Sorry to be this kind of an Owl of Minerva only flying after the fact - but with some hindsight (which I myself did acquire just now thinking about it) I could say that those who were very well on top of the rules on D1 and suggested a no-lynch policy are to me somewhat suspicious now.

I mean whatever we think about the possibility of the Dead Thread to help us, a no-lynch on D1 certainly robbed us one vote from them. And by default that should be the aim of the evil-side - especially as they didn't know beforehand, how the discussion on the Dead-vote issue would go on D1.

I still *strongly* disagree. The Dead would have known no more than we did if they had had a vote on Day 2. They would not have been able to vote to reveal any roles yet at that point, so they would have had no more information than we did. "Robbing" us of one uninformed vote in favor of having another person still alive to give their own uninformed vote - and be able to defend it - does not seem like a bad trade to me.

I really can't figure you out - your consistency made me think that you were more likely innocent, but I'm not sure that argument holds up in this game format. I disagree with you on a lot of the game mechanic interpretation, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're evil. You do seem to see the people who disagree with you as evil, though, which might be a wolf trying to produce suspicions out of thin air rather than actually looking at posts and analyzing behavior, since that's more likely to lead to a packmate. I'm torn on what to think of you.

EDIT: xed with Nog

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Eönwe first said no lynch is a fee ride for the wolves but then ended up suggesting a no lynch deal with his rigid system of tying the dead vote (which he was actually cancelling with the no-lynch!).

Nope. As I said clearly at the time, a no-lynch on D1 means we start with a presumed innocent (i.e. a wolf-kill) in the Dead Thread.

I didn't want to say too much at the time to give the wolves ideas (and I'm not exactly sure how much I said), but the point is that this means that when the D1 lynchee joins, if the system is being followed, their role will be revealed either outright by Kuru or by their failure to cooperate. This then means which means that the next presumed innocent (i.e. the N2 wolf-kill) could make sure that the role of the D1 lynchee could be successfully communicated to group.

A plan that hopefully has played out, but certainly would've been almost certain to (barring exceptional possibilities such as the EW sacrificing a wolf) if it hadn't been sabotaged by a certain person.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I mean whatever we think about the possibility of the Dead Thread to help us, a no-lynch on D1 certainly robbed us one vote from them. And by default that should be the aim of the evil-side - especially as they didn't know beforehand, how the discussion on the Dead-vote issue would go on D1.

What? Nope, that was one of the strongest reasons people put for it - the first time the Dead could vote on anything was Day 2, so they would not know about what their own roles were. So they could not pass us information, because they didn't have any. And if you are arguing for that they could have given us their vote in the way you have been advocating - i.e. not passing information, but simply empowering someone - then it doesn't make any sense, because in our case, the person who would have been dead was instead still living and among us, so their vote counted anyway. So there was no loss to that in regards to the amount of people participating and so on. (Also if you had two members of the Dead thread, their "just empowering" votes could have easily also canceled each other, and then there would be nothing.)

So really.

EDIT: x-ed with Nog, Lottie and Eönwë

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, I went through some stuff and now I am trying to sort my thoughts. I managed to read Nerwen's posts; the thing is, she's been posting a lot, but like 90% of it is providing reference (especially on Day 1). That makes her look helpful and all, but objectively, it doesn't really say anything. Also she was somewhat wishy-washy on her vote:

Wishy-washy nothing. I had genuine doubts, and I stated them. (I may also have been getting a trifle jittery, giving that my merely pointing out Zil's possibly suspicious behaviour had got me jumped on surprisingly hard.)

Edit: x'd since Legate #425.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Sorry to be this kind of an Owl of Minerva only flying after the fact - but with some hindsight (which I myself did acquire just now thinking about it) I could say that those who were very well on top of the rules on D1 and suggested a no-lynch policy are to me somewhat suspicious now.

I mean whatever we think about the possibility of the Dead Thread to help us, a no-lynch on D1 certainly robbed us one vote from them. And by default that should be the aim of the evil-side - especially as they didn't know beforehand, how the discussion on the Dead-vote issue would go on D1.

Well, if we by some miracle lynched a wolf on Day 1, then that wolf would certainly have gone against the other dead person in the dead thread on Day 2, so I'm not seeing how this cost the living any info.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I still *strongly* disagree. The Dead would have known no more than we did if they had had a vote on Day 2. They would not have been able to vote to reveal any roles yet at that point, so they would have had no more information than we did. "Robbing" us of one uninformed vote in favor of having another person still alive to give their own uninformed vote - and be able to defend it - does not seem like a bad trade to me.

But with two rather than one in the Dead Thread they could have checked on of them and deal the information to us? Okay. We need to check up the rules. If you're correct - then I was wrong and vice versa... I'll do it (darn clock going that fast...)

EDIT: X'd with many...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That all being said, I am really starting to worry about Nog, because from sabotaging the whole Dead thing... I mean, yes, we can each have different opinions on how it should be handled, but things like questioning it two hours before DL, or now this peculiar judgment of the no-lynch basically casting suspicion on the people who advocated it? With the dead thread thing, this constant poking seems like probing whether the link (or trust, reliability) between Dead and Living can be broken. Leaving options open is one thing, giving the Dead ideas that nobody will listen to you anyway is sabotage.

EDIT: x-ed with Nerwen, Eomer and Nog

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

All right, let's talk votes. I'm ready to vote for just about anyone - pretty much the only person I think might be innocent is Eonwe, for reasons stated previously. I still haven't decided what I think about Boro but inclined to leave him today. I'm also leaning very slightly towards Nerwen being innocent.

[Lalaith]

Why do you want to leave Boro today, Eomer? I've been concerned about voting for him in his absence, is that your reason too or is it something else?

[satansaloser2005]

Quick bursts of thought!

I agree that having no lynch on the first Day *could* have been a good idea because in this one case, it would be beneficial to have a guaranteed good person in the Dead Thread from the start(ish). That said, I find Steve's discussion of such things juxtaposed with his actions to be suspicious. That said, I'd have to delve into his posts with more time than I currently have in order to consider him as a lynch candidate toDay based solely on that point. I could go either way right now.

I'm terribly sad Pervinca dropped out. I hope you'll come back and join us for a calmer game!

Nogrod needs to be lynched for those long posts in which I thought I'd missed DL again. You jerk! <3 On a more serious note, he seems normal enough at the moment; I have a niggling feeling of some kind, but as I can't yet place it, I can't in good conscience consider him a candidate.

Lottie seems to be taking that stern tone she does as a wolf. Mind, I don't disagree with most of her points, but the way in which she is interacting with other players makes me want to scratch her behind the ears. I'd be okay with voting her for her toDay.

My radar hasn't pegged Nerwen either way yet, which is always worrisome, but I also haven't been terribly present so far this game (sorry again!), so I'm placing that on the back burner for now until I do another in-depth read of the thread.

Eomer reads as his reasonable ordo self and also has had decent points from what I've been seeing. I'd like to keep him off the block.

Though I've seen him pull some crazy shenanigans, I don't see Boro self-voting with votes still hanging out in the open if he were a wolf (especially on the first Day), so while I don't find his actions flawless, I have enough doubt that I'd rather vote for someone else at the moment.



Posting and catching up.


x'd since Nerwen debating her wish-washiness

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

He's obviously been a bit weird since Day 1, but I'm not convinced it's evil; and since there's probably 2 wolves created since then, I prefer to look elsewhere for now.

[Nogrod]

Okay. here it is.

Originally Posted by the Rules

After there are TWO residents of the Dead Thread, every DAY the dead get to vote on giving one of the living an extra vote. The dead are subject to the same deadline as the living. The living will not know who among them will get an extra vote until it is revealed in the closing narration of the DAY.

So, if there are two Dead on D2, they are allowed to give an empowerment to someone's vote in the Living Thread. With a no lynch on D1 there wasn't two but only one. Correct?

Then:

Originally Posted by teh Rulez

Since in the anteroom of the afterlife it is hard to hide one’s true nature from one’s fellow residents, every NIGHT after there are TWO residents the dead get to vote for one among themselves to determine their true nature. The voted player will be described as either PREDATOR or PREY.

Now how to read this?

If there would have been someone lynched on D1 and someone killed on N2 could they have voted on N2? Well, probably not as it could be the Night-killed only learned about her/his destiny just a few moments before the Night ended / the next Day started?


So I stand corrected.

But I also realise what made me think it otherwise - and it is this:

Originally Posted by Ze rulls

Please Note: The threshold for the Dead Thread voting has been reduced to two since the Dead Thread will (presumably) not be filling up super-fast like the last Dead Thread game and I wanted to give the dead something to do sooner in the game. Yes, the first two residents of the Dead Thread will probably reflexively vote for each other for the role reveal…but then again, maybe they won’t.

Now in a normal situation there would have been one dead by lynch and one by baddies - follows a Day in which there is no voting among the Dead about their identities - so comes Night and they can finally vote to see who they are - but they seem to be like two Days behind because they have to vote just between the two of them - and not include the one who enters that Night, if I read the rules correctly now.

Which is insane and totally making the Dead Thread crippled and null and void. It looks like I didn't read this closely enough. But being two days behind it's just more or less same if we didn't have the Dead thread at all (well, maybe somewhere very late in the game - if there was a late game in the first place).

[Loslote]

At the moment, I am concerned about Nog and Eönwë, and I'm feeling a little wary of Legate and Brinn, but I'm not wildly suspicious of any of them. I definitely don't want to vote Legate or Brinn toDay, I don't have a concrete enough suspicion of either of them, and I've been back and forth on Nog so much this game that I don't know that I'm super comfortable voting for him, either. That leaves Eönwë by default, but I'm not eager to see him lynched, either. I could maybe be down with voting for Boro, if only because it would be too easy to write him off as playing weird this game and accidentally let a Borowolf through to the end. But I'm not super happy about any of the options.

EDIT: xed since Lalaith

[satansaloser2005]

Am I missing something, or have there not been any votes yet? I swore someone voted earlier.