Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

Could the answer be 'no one', or some variation thereof? The text says that Ancalime originally wanted to marry no one, the dwarves feared no one, Shadowfax bore no one originally etc.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Could the answer be 'no one', or some variation thereof? The text says that Ancalime originally wanted to marry no one, the dwarves feared no one, Shadowfax bore no one originally etc.

Correct! Or close enough: the actual answer is "no man".

I heard their words:
The lord of the Forest welcomed me: "Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, not even those of the house of Beor who serve Finrod the beloved."
The queen of the Island wished my hand: "I should be free to wed whom I will; and that would be Uner (which is “Noman”), whom I prefer above all others."
The king in the Mountains feared me: "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
The steed of the Plains would bear me: "Seven nights ago Shadowfax returned; but the king's anger is not less, for now the horse is wild and will let no man handle him."
But in the end, each found another.
Who am I?
I am No Man.


With full credit to Miranda Otto, who has just today appeared in-character as Eowyn to narrate the "War of the Rohirrim" movie.

... which of course means I was wrong about Telperien, for we all know that the Witch-King of the mountains of Angmar was in reality the Witch-Queen, etc etc etc.

Anyway, over to you!

hS

[Urwen]

I finally figured out what to use, so try this one on for size.

My twin and I were born amidst twilight
We were forcibly torn apart
I settled in woodland realm, a place of light
And there I got a new start

Years passed, and a companion strong
Realized my worth and took me along
We traveled for a long time
On a search without reason or rhyme

In the place of shadows he was gone
But I, I lived on
A new companion I found
But unseen forces had him bound

But I still had my own free will
For good or for ill
Tales were told
About a grudge I did hold

I died at the riverside
Swallowed by the tide
One day I will return at last
And the final judgment will be cast.

[Huinesoron]

brb, checking The Children of Hurin.

Hmm, okay. I'm going to guess you are Anglachel/Gurthang. There's some nice translated names in the riddle - I spotted "strong" for Beleg and "place of shadows" for Taur-nu-Fuin. I had to look up "twilight" for Nan Elmoth, and can't make "place of light" fit anything specific for Doriath.

The thing I was checking was what actually happened to ol'Blacksword. The riddle made me wonder if it had gone into the river somehow, but shattering counts as "died at the riverside". "Swallowed by the tide" I guess means... blood and/or despair?

hS

[Urwen]

Your explanation is correct.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Your explanation is correct.

Awesome. This one's been percolating in my mind for a week or two:

At the first we stood high on the slopes,
Watching waiting as the wanderer climbed.
One of us watched the dance in the dark,
Held the haggard hero lest he fall.
And one strode swift through gentle hills,
Great gait drawing the gaze of passer-by.
But at the last we fell, frail and weak:
The master may have mourned us, if he learned.

"Not very good, perhaps, but to the point," as Bilbo says (that's not a clue).

hS
[/I]

[Urwen]

That makes me think of paired things, and my first instinct says the Towers of the Teeth.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

That makes me think of paired things, and my first instinct says the Towers of the Teeth.

Not the Towers of the Teeth, and I wouldn't get too hung up on "paired" if I were you.

hS

[Mithadan]

The watchers of the gate of Cirith Ungol?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

The watchers of the gate of Cirith Ungol?

Also no. The speakers were never in Mordor.

hS

[Urwen]

The beacons of Gondor?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

The beacons of Gondor?

No.

The riddle is a lot more literal than it feels like you're reading it.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, it could be your kind. The Eagles, that is. Except they don't fit the last two lines. And they did enter Mordor.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, it could be your kind. The Eagles, that is. Except they don't fit the last two lines. And they did enter Mordor.

It's not the Eagles, though you're onto a good thing thinking about species.

I will mention that the time between the second and third events is a lot longer than you're thinking... and that "at the first" and "at the last" are literal, but not in a way you've mentioned yet.

hS

[Urwen]

The Ents?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

The Ents?

Technically you're closer, but I don't think you're going to find the answer by just listing off species. Share your thinking and I will offer hints.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, I have no real explanation, other than that this line made me think of Quickbeam

And one strode swift through gentle hills

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, I have no real explanation, other than that this line made me think of Quickbeam

Quickbeam might have made someone else think of that incident, except that the wrong Hobbits were in Fangorn.

hS

[Urwen]

Horses? The 'haggard hero' line made me think of that one scene from the movies...

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Horses? The 'haggard hero' line made me think of that one scene from the movies...

Sorry, I somehow missed this completely. Nothing to do with horses.

You got closest with "Ents", which is the right length and has two of the letters right (of which one is the plural -s ). The four couplets take place in four different books... if the last one can be said to take place in a book at all.

And I'll confirm that "one strode swift through the gentle hills" is an LotR reference, though not from Two Towers.

hS

[mormegil]

I guess the Ring Bearers.

I know it's not it but I figured I'd share that I guessed it and it's not correct.

I PM'ed my guess.

[Urwen]

Elfs?

Or maybe Orcs...it all fits, except maybe the third line...but it only has one letter that is the same, not two.


Or maybe cats, though I don't know how cats can hold anyone..

[mormegil]

At the first we stood high on the slopes,
-No real idea where to start here except that there is a 'we' so it's clearly multiple individuals or things.

Watching waiting as the wanderer climbed.
-Wanderer makes me think of Gandalf or Aragorn but it could be a host of people from the Silmarillion

One of us watched the dance in the dark,
-I can't recall if there's a 'dance' with Gollum or another in the dark, so it could mean combat. This makes me think of Gandalf fighting the Balrog

Held the haggard hero lest he fall.
-First thought is Samwise holding Frodo, but in looking at previous I can make the argument of Gandalf again, however it's 'we' not I...so?

And one strode swift through gentle hills,
-No real clue on this one

Great gait drawing the gaze of passer-by.
-Same, no idea

But at the last we fell, frail and weak:
-This one gives me pause, because what other plural failed other than all the ringbearers which it isn't that answer? The 9 kings of old failed and became wraiths...but the other clues don't hold up to that.

The master may have mourned us, if he learned.
-This one, led me first to think of Frodo and Gollum but I think there's more to it. The Master ring is the only other thing that makes sense. If it failed after the master wouldn't have learned it makes me think that maybe it's....

The 3 elven rings?

[Urwen]

It can't be those, unless I misinterpreted Huey entirely and 'right length' doesn't mean a number of letters...

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Urwen

It can't be those, unless I misinterpreted Huey entirely and 'right length' doesn't mean a number of letters...

Gotcha, I didn't see the explanation given on length. Well there goes my guess

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by mormegil

I guess the Ring Bearers.

As you said, it's not.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Elfs?

Or maybe Orcs...it all fits, except maybe the third line...but it only has one letter that is the same, not two.

Or maybe cats, though I don't know how cats can hold anyone..

No to any of those.

Originally Posted by mormegil

At the first we stood high on the slopes,
-No real idea where to start here except that there is a 'we' so it's clearly multiple individuals or things.

Correct, at least in that line.

Originally Posted by mormegil

Watching waiting as the wanderer climbed.
-Wanderer makes me think of Gandalf or Aragorn but it could be a host of people from the Silmarillion

This reference is to a work even older than the first Silmarillion.

Originally Posted by mormegil

One of us watched the dance in the dark,
-I can't recall if there's a 'dance' with Gollum or another in the dark, so it could mean combat. This makes me think of Gandalf fighting the Balrog

The dance is literal, and doesn't involve Gollum, Gandalf, or Balrogs.

Originally Posted by mormegil

Held the haggard hero lest he fall.
-First thought is Samwise holding Frodo, but in looking at previous I can make the argument of Gandalf again, however it's 'we' not I...so?

None of those.

Originally Posted by mormegil

And one strode swift through gentle hills,
-No real clue on this one

Great gait drawing the gaze of passer-by.
-Same, no idea

This one may not actually have existed; we only hear about it second-hand, though the Fellowship member speaking about it certainly believed it.

Originally Posted by mormegil

But at the last we fell, frail and weak:
-This one gives me pause, because what other plural failed other than all the ringbearers which it isn't that answer? The 9 kings of old failed and became wraiths...but the other clues don't hold up to that.

I'm being a bit cheeky with this couplet. I will also note that I didn't say failed, and fell is more literal than you'd think.

Originally Posted by mormegil

The master may have mourned us, if he learned.
-This one, led me first to think of Frodo and Gollum but I think there's more to it. The Master ring is the only other thing that makes sense. If it failed after the master wouldn't have learned it makes me think that maybe it's....

"If" is me speaking; I don't know if the master heard what happened to the "speakers" (the timeline isn't entirely clear to me), but he would definitely have mourned.

Originally Posted by mormegil

The 3 elven rings?

It is not.

Originally Posted by Urwen

It can't be those, unless I misinterpreted Huey entirely and 'right length' doesn't mean a number of letters...

You're correct: the answer is a three-letter word, + "s" for the plural.

None of the couplets are spoken by the same individuals, and only the "speaker" in the third couplet might have actually been able to speak. If it existed.

hS

[Galadriel55]

My best guess was also Ents, which was shot down. However, for what it's worth -

One of us watched the dance in the dark,
Held the haggard hero lest he fall.

To me this strongly evokes the meeting of Beren and Luthien. Am I completely on the wrong track, or is there something to it?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

My best guess was also Ents, which was shot down.

Ents remains the best guess. And there is a very strong Ent connection with couplet 3.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

To me this strongly evokes the meeting of Beren and Luthien. Am I completely on the wrong track, or is there something to it?

That is 100% correct. "Held" is pretty literal, though specific to one version of the tale (the original BoLT "Tale of Tinuviel", I've just checked).

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Ents remains the best guess. And there is a very strong Ent connection with couplet 3.

And one strode swift through gentle hills,
Great gait drawing the gaze of passer-by.

Yes, this very much evokes the walking tree giant or whatnot that the hobbits gossip about in the beginning of LOTR.

Actually, let me look up that passage.

Oh.

Oooh.

Maybe.

I have a plausible idea, though can't fit it well into all the stanzas, or maybe lack the pre-Silm lore to make the connections. But I gotta ask:

ELMS? As in Elm trees?

But Neldoreth forests are beech... unless Beren happened to prop himself up on the one elm he could find in that forest, lol. Yeah, not sure how it fits, but I was ruminating on Ents and trees for a bit now, and this actually makes sense. Who cut then down in the end? Was it the chopped tree alleyway in the Scouring (or even in Galadriel's mirror)? But Sam and Frodo know about it, so the final line doesn't make sense.

[Urwen]

Methinks you're correct with that one. I just remembered Huey's line about Melko being chased up a tree by Huan. If the tree in question is an elm, that could be it.

But I'll toss out another guess of my own just in case. Could it be irons? I seem to recall irons being described as 'fell' at least once.


Never mind, disregard that guess. I found a better one.

All eyes were quenched, save those that glared
in Morgoth's lowering brows, and stared
in slowly wandering wonder round,
and slow were in enchantment bound.
Their will wavered, and their fire failed,
and as beneath his brows they paled,
the Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like the stars that in the North

Then flaring suddenly they fell

Read the bolded words.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I have a plausible idea, though can't fit it well into all the stanzas, or maybe lack the pre-Silm lore to make the connections. But I gotta ask:

ELMS? As in Elm trees?

But Neldoreth forests are beech... unless Beren happened to prop himself up on the one elm he could find in that forest, lol. Yeah, not sure how it fits, but I was ruminating on Ents and trees for a bit now, and this actually makes sense. Who cut then down in the end? Was it the chopped tree alleyway in the Scouring (or even in Galadriel's mirror)? But Sam and Frodo know about it, so the final line doesn't make sense.

The answer is indeed ELMS.

At the first we stood high on the slopes,
Watching waiting as the wanderer climbed.

Originally Posted by Book of Lost Tales, Chapter 1: The Cottage of Lost Play

Now as he stood at the foot of the little hill there came a faint breeze and then a flight of rooks above his head in the clear even light. The sun had some time sunk beyond the boughs of the elms that stood as far as the eye could look about the plain, and some time had its last gold faded through the leaves and slipped across the glades to sleep beneath the roots and dream till dawn.

Eriol approaches Kortirion, in what is arguably the third paragraph of the Legendarium - "at the first" indeed. These are the famous elms of Warwickshire, which Tolkien loved.

One of us watched the dance in the dark,
Held the haggard hero lest he fall.

Originally Posted by The Tale of Tinuviel

Now the lies of Melko ran among Beren's folk so that they believed evil things of the secret Elves, yet now did he see Tinuviel dancing in the twilight, and Tinuviel was in a silver-pearly dress, and her bare white feet were twinkling among the hemlock-stems. Then Beren cared not whether she were Vala or Elf or child of Men and crept near to see; and he leant against a young elm that grew upon a mound so that he might look down into the little glade where she was dancing, for the enchantment made him faint.

This is a real elm; apparently there was one by the glade where Edith danced for Tolkien, though it is gone now. (This is foreshadowing.)

And one strode swift through gentle hills,
Great gait drawing the gaze of passer-by.

Originally Posted by Fellowship of the Ring: The Shadow of the Past

"But this one was as big as an elm tree and walking - walking seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch."

"Then I bet it wasn't an inch. What he saw was an elm tree, as like as not."

"But this one was walking, I tell you; and there ain't no elm tree on the North Moors."

"Then Hal can't have seen one," said Ted.

Did this elm, or elm-like Ent (or Entwife?) actually exist, or was it all in Hal's head? Who even knows?

But at the last we fell, frail and weak:
The master may have mourned us, if he learned.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia: Dutch elm disease

By 1990, very few mature elms were left in Britain or much of continental Europe. One of the most distinctive English countryside trees (See John Constable's painting Salisbury Cathedral from the South-West), the English elm U. minor 'Atinia', is particularly susceptible as it is the elm most favoured by the Scolytus beetles. Thirty years after the outbreak of the epidemic, nearly all these trees, which often grew to more than 45 m high, are gone.

There are no (mature) elms in Warwickshire now. There are none on the moors. There are none by the clearing where Edith danced in the hemlocks. From the late 60s to the 90s, Dutch Elm Disease wiped the English elm almost out of existence. The few that survive are protected by strenuous and constant effort (Brighton), or too far north for the disease to spread (Edinburgh).

I haven't been able to determine how fast the disease spread, or when the Warwickshire elms in particular were felled. I don't know if it happened by 1973, or whether it would have made the newspapers. But I know for certain-sure that Tolkien would have grieved for them if he knew they were dying.

~

That's it for Huinesoron's Fun With Trees; over to G55 if you want it.

(Urwen, I love the idea of using a specific piece of poetry to make a riddle, there's a definite risk of me doing that next time round. )

hS

[Galadriel55]

I really liked that riddle. This was some good elm-referencing, and while the gist of the scenes was clear it took actual quote hunting to get it.

I suspect this one will be easier, but hopefully hard enough to still be fun. After toying with a couple versions of this idea I went with the more poetic one.




When spring unfolds the beechen leaf upon a sunny day,
When endless the assent, and pointless seems the long foray,
When red the walls and bleak the view and black smoke fills the air -
You must turn back! You must return! You must not linger here!

When mountain peaks loom in the sky and day to twilight fades,
When friend unlooked for's seen again, and friend long-missed awaits,
When enemy is tracking you like hunter tracks his prey -
You must remain and carry on, you have no other way.

When what is dear is tarnished by malevolence and guile,
Old friends are fallen on the road, and homes in ruin lie,
When barrow holds what little treasures left the hill intact -
Don't linger here beneath the stars! Return! You must turn back!

When battle breaks and prophecies of old will come to pass,
When you are taking up the tale from heroes of the past,
When tempests rage and vessels sail to build, save, and depart -
You must stay here and carry on, you must fulfill your part.

You know that you must walk this road together with a friend,
But what saw you before all this, which he saw at the end?