The Doom of the Noldor

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 297</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
After the rebellion of the Noldor and the Kinslaying, an emissary of the Valar, probably Mandos, appears before the Noldorin host as it travels North in Valinor and prononces the Doom of the Noldor: that the West will be shut against them, they will weary of the world and be slain by violence or sorrow and that they will suffer from treachery. Is the Doom of the Noldor a curse or prophecy?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 516</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Doom of the Noldor

Prophecy. The Valar are too nice to curse so many people.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Taimar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of the Downfallen West
Posts: 368</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Doom of the Noldor

I think it is intended as a prophecy. Perhaps the Noldor themselves, especially the House of Feanor, considered it to be a curse. If one believes (as I do, though it is hard to be certain) that the speaker is Mandos himself, then it is merely an example of his prescience. If I remember clearly the speech itself is rather vague, and predicts the ruin of the Feanorians and the more general anguish to be suffered by those continuing with the journey.

I think the `Doom of the Noldor` speech was an attempt to persuade the people of Fingolfin and Finarfin to forsake the journey to Middle-Earth. As such, it was partially successful.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[Feanor]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
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re:doom of the noldor

I believe it was intended to be both prophecy and curse. But it also depends on who delivered it. Had it been Mandos, I would most likely call it prophecy, as he had foresight that far exceeded that of any of the Vala. Had any other delivered the message, I would be unsure.

</p>

[Grand Admiral Reese]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: re:doom of the noldor

It is both a curse and a prophecy, atleast IMO.


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[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: re:doom of the noldor

I'm almost surprised that no one views the Doom only as a curse. I tend to agree that the Doom was not, in and of itself, a curse. As a prophecy, it was very accurate. To the Noldor, especially as time passed, it may have seemed to be a curse, but in reality the events which unfolded in the First Age were driven by the Oath of Feanor and his sons and the circumstances -- the Noldor had taken on an impossible task, the overthrow of a Vala.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Maédhros]

After they had marched for a great while in the unmeasured night, they came at length to the northern confines of the Guarded Realm, upon the borders of the empty waste of Araman which were mountainous and cold. There they beheld suddenly a dark figure standing high upon a rock that looked down upon the shore. Some say that it was Mandos himself, and no lesser herald of Manwë. And they heard a loud voice, solemn and terrible, that bade them stand and give ear. Then all halted and stood still, and from end to end of the hosts of the Noldor the voice was heard speaking the curse and prophecy which is called the Prophecy of the North, and the Doom of the Noldor. Much it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them; but all heard the curse that was uttered upon those that would not stay nor seek the doom and pardon of the Valar.

It was both a curse and a prophecy, but i think it was much more of a curse.

[Mithadan]

Consider that the quote you cite was purportedly written by an elf living in Middle Earth. The Elves may have believed it to be a curse when it was not so but rather the Prophecy of the North. It doesn't take too much to predict that the Elves cannot defeat Morgoth unaided.

Good to see someone trolling the archives for interesting old threads. There's a wealth of stuff in there and plenty of room to continue old debates.

[Arie]

i agree with Mithdan

[Maédhros]

Wow, I'm talking to the "Spirit of Mist"!
When you say:

It doesn't take too much to predict that the Elves cannot defeat Morgoth unaided.

What do you mean?
That the elves cannot defeat the armies of Morgoth.
That the elves cannot defeat Morgoth himself.
That the elves cannot "kill" Morgoth.
Or something else.

I think that if Orodreth would have come to war in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the elves would have been able to vanquished the Armies of Morgoth.

[Kuruharan]

I think that if Orodreth would have come to war in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the elves would have been able to vanquished the Armies of Morgoth.

Although it could be looked at as an example of the Doom working to keep the forces of the Noldor divided and preventing them from gaining a victory, I disagree. I don't think that the entire host of Nargothrond would have created victory out of defeat. The Noldor were able to almost break into Angband, almost. If the Elves of Nargothrond had been there from the beginning they might have gotten in. But would it have made a great deal of difference if they had? They would have broken into a massive maze of tunnels that they were unfamiliar with. Bad for them, good for orcs. They would have expended themselves in fighting underground and it might have turned out to be a greater disaster than it was i.e. Turgon and most of his folk might have been killed, no more Gondolin, no Tuor and Idril, no Earendil...Bad!

This might be taken as an example of Orodreth's stubborness working out for the good.

(Just a contrary interpretation for you. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[Maédhros]

At length Maedhros, having gathered all the strength that he could of Elves and Men and Dwarves, resolved to assault Angband from east and west; and he purposed to march with banners displayed in open force over Anfauglith. But when he had drawn forth, as he hoped, the armies of Morgoth in answer, then Fingon should issue forth from the passes of Hithlum; and thus they thought to take the might of Morgoth as between anvil and hammer, and break it to pieces. And the signal for this was to be the firing of a great beacon in Dorthonion.

Now Morgoth, who knew much of what was done and designed by his enemies, chose his hour, and trusting in his treacherous servants to hold back Maedhros and prevent the union of his foes he sent a force seeming great (and yet but part of all that he had made ready) towards Hithlum; and they were clad all in dun raiment and showed no naked steel, and thus were already far over the sands of Anfauglith before their approach was seen.

I wonder why was it so important to Morgoth to prevent the joining of Forces between Maedhros and Fingon.

, the trumpets of Maedhros were heard at last coming up from the east, and the banners of the sons of Fëanor assailed the enemy in the rear. Some have said that even then the Eldar might have won the day, had all their hosts proved faithful; for the Orcs wavered, and their onslaught was stayed, and already some were turning to flight. But even as the vanguard of Maedhros came upon the Orcs, Morgoth loosed his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maedhros and Fingon and swept them apart.

I have always wondered why didn't Fingon called for the Help of Orodreth.
My suposition that the elves would have won the battle is that some tought that if the host had remain faithful they might have won the day.
The 2 changes that I would assume would make the Nirnaeth Arnoediad a victory for the elves would be the coming of Orodreth and for the treachery of Ulfang to not have occurred. But I suppose that was the Doom of the Noldor.
Yet i accept the wise opinion of Kuruharan.

[Kuruharan]

I wonder why was it so important to Morgoth to prevent the joining of Forces between Maedhros and Fingon.

Because "divide and conquer" is one of the fundamental principles of warfare. It's so much easier to fight two small seperated forces than one united stronger force. Especially if you have a central position between the two.
Even assuming that Morgoth would have won anyway, it's always best to take the path of least resistance.

I have always wondered why didn't Fingon called for the Help of Orodreth.

Did we talk about that in another thread? The topic seems familiar but I can't quite place it. Or did I imagine it?

[Maédhros]

I think that we did talk about that subject.
Would the Elves could have fared better of even won the day if they had been able to assemble into one host?
There are cases when to divide your forces is a better course of action.

[Kuruharan]

There are cases when to divide your forces is a better course of action.

That is very true. And as a matter of fact this may have been one of the times.

Would the Elves could have fared better of even won the day if they had been able to assemble into one host?

I doubt it. They could have broken into Angband if they had gathered all of their might, but then they would have been fighting inside Angband and I don't think they would have fared well. Probably the best thing that they could do is try to draw Morgoth out so that they could destroy his forces on ground of their own choosing. However, I fear that the best case scenario for them would be to re-establish the Seige of Angband after destroying as much of Morgoth's armed might as they could. I just don't think they could beat Morgoth inside his own massive fortress.

(It may be that I am overestimating the strength of Angband and underestimating the strenght of the Noldor. Or it could be that I am too accepting of the Doom of Mandos as being insurmountable in face of the way things actually turned out rather than how they could have turned out.)

[Lush]

Even if the Elves had been successful in invading Angband, do you really think that they could make (and keep) Morgoth their prisoner? Think of the havoc he had wrecked in Valinor, and this was under the watchful eyes of the Vala themselves. He would have had them divided, confused, and weakened in no time. Their doom was to fight a force they could not conquer alone. At least, that's the picture that comes to mind when I think of it.

[Maédhros]

Think of the havoc he had wrecked in Valinor, and this was under the watchful eyes of the Vala themselves.

Well, the Valar were not that watchful themselves.
I wonder if the Noldor would have been able to "slain" Morgoth's body.

[Kuruharan]

I wonder if the Noldor would have been able to "slain" Morgoth's body.

I think they could have. However, Morgoth would probably have been able to re-body after this experience. It would take him a little while to reassemble a kingdom someplace, but he would come back for revenge. The Noldor had nowhere to go. They could not go back West. They would just have to stay and fight the wars all over again.

[O'Boile]

One of the basic military tenants is to fight where you are strong and the enemy is weak. It may be good at times to split your forces, but not if it means that the enemy can send his entire force(a strong position) against part of your force(a weak position). Being caught seperated was definately not good for the elves.
Morgoth was unbeatable for more reasons than just the size/strengh of his armies. His ability to incite treason and betrayal was another reason why the war was ultimately hopeless.

[mark12_30]

Mithadan's original question was whether it was a curse or a prophesy-- but it is called a "Doom". The Doom of the Noldor. Tolkien used the word "Doom" to mean "Destiny". In other words, Mandos was now speaking the "Destiny" of the Noldor.

I wonder if this was one place where a thread, or Melody, of the Music of the Ainur simply came clear for Mandos to see and hear, and he understood it, and knew their "destiny", and spoke it.

Is it also a curse? When someone speaks your destiny and it's a negative one ("Mortal, you will surely die!"-- true enough for all of us) it sure sounds like a curse. But I don't suppose it need be. It could simply be an acknowledgement of what will be. To me a curse is causing evil by turning bad spiritual power against someone (or perhaps similarly, removing good spiritual oower from someone, so that the evil spiritual powers fill the resulting void.) But I do not think that Mandos caused the evil. I think he foresaw it.

Doom = Destiny. So... in choosing between curse and prophesy, I guess I vote for "prophesy", then.

--Helen

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

Doom=Destiny
Curse=an action that makes someone's destiny change for the worse...but the niggling question is, whether it was their destiny to be cursed?
Circles within circles...

[Ravenna]

Maybe not their destiny to be cursed, but to be Accursed, which according to my dictionary can mean not just under a curse, but also 'ill-fated; involving misery'.
It could be said that the Noldor had cursed themselves by their own actions (ie the kinslaying at Aqualonde) If we assume that evil deeds eventually rebound upon the perpetrator, then the repercussions from Aqualonde would certainly cause the Noldor misery and to be ill-fated. After all, imo, the Valar were not so much annoyed at the departure, although they obviously were against it and had counselled against it, but were aggrieved about the kinslaying and the lies spread by Morgoth and fostered by Feanor. Only Feanor himself and his sons were to be banished from Valinor, the rest could go back if they repented of their evil doing.
On this basis, I think of the prophecy of the north, as not so much placing the Noldor under a curse, as warning them that they have placed themselves into an accursed position, and is more of a foretelling of what will occur if they do not repent.
If that came out a bit muddled, apologies, but I hope you get my point.

[Amarinth]

nicely put, ravenna.

"destiny" i agree would be the more appropriate word for the prophecy of the north, a path the actions of the departing noldor opened up for themselves with the choices they made. the valar do not by nature curse, i believe; they merely foretell. omniscience begets prescience as was once said here. that's also why the quendi can also change their destinies or "doom" by repenting, by opening another door away from the path of destruction.

[HerenIstarion]

this the role of Fate in ME topic concides with the given one very much, wich is not surprising [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] , author being Mithadan also