Unoriginality

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I have been reading, I have been doing a lot and I have just been reminded of something out of the past. The dwarves were given the seven rings. So there were Seven Dwarves that were very important. Seven is a number frequently associated with dwarves isn't it? I know we all say that when it comes to visions of dwarves Tolkien pretty much defined our view of them as greedy little hoard-mongers who will fight for their treasures, their homes and their dignity, but really didn't the Brothers Grimm? Snow White's dwarves were very much the same. A little poorer, but very much the same. I know Tolkien took from many, many other great tales to influence his mythology, but isn't the number 7 (besided fitting with the twenty rings perfectly) a little obvious?

[Arien]

I never really thought of it that way, but I guess you are kind of right, or it might just be a coincidence.....probably not....good question though.....

[engwaalphiel]

Maybe it's Tolkien's idea of a joke [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
But i suppose it's more likely a coincedance that there's seven. Good question however.

[Nevolosse Maehayanda]

Tolkien was Christian, and the Christian good luck number is 7...maybe that was his idea of infusing his beliefs into the hobbit...

[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]
Nev'

[Arien]

Hmmmm never heard as 7 being a lucky number for Christians......I swear it was 40, maybe I should listen in RE....and Im sure it was dwarves not hobbits we were talking about...

[theWhiteLady]

Seven is the number of completeness, the "perfect" number in the Christian doctrine. Nearly all of the numbers Tolkien chose, especially for the ring poem, had some significance, IMO. I had never thought of Snow White's dwarves, but I am sure that Tolkien did not mean for them to be associated with his own. He seemed to dislike the way fairy tales portrayed elves and other magical creatures as childish, so I doubt he would like one to get the idea that his dwarves resembled those from Grimm's story. I have nothing to back that up however, just my two pieces of mithril [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Helkasir]

Seven's a bad number. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Kalimac]

Hmmm, seven like the Seven Deadly Sins? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] . Of course, there are also the Seven Sacraments if you're Catholic. Are there any non-Christian religions which have seven as a special number?

[Durelin]

There's seven sacraments right? Three is the Holy Trinity and nine...well, three shows up a lot right? Holy Trinity + Jesus tempted three times in desert + three wise men? I don't know, a guess. Oh, and Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. The Elves call Elbereth Snow White (right?) and seven Dwarves? Hmmmmm...kinda a strange similarity.

[Legolas]

The number seven occurs about 4,031,997 times in Revelation.

I doubt that had anything to do with it though.

[littlemanpoet]

Tolkien's Dwarves hie
from Nordic sagas and myths,
where they were sly
and cunning with glyphs,
were evil, the foes
of the gods.
I suppose,
*LMP nods,*
Tollers would dispose
of Disney,
wouldn't he?
But he liked the Grimms,
fellow linguists,
whose stories from the dim
ancient mists
of the past,
were not repast
for children's minds
with their lurid crimes
and stark tales
with dragon scales.
So Tollers' Dwarves, hard bitten
are ennobled, I'm thinkin'.

[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[dunedain_aragorn]

i dont think tolkien ever liked disney. i mean, look at their portrayal of elves! little gnomes with little hats, about the size of your thumb!

[Daewen]

You've definatly got a point there. welcome to the barrowdowns dunedain_aragorn

[Mandos]

Was JRRT a Protestant or a Catholic? I understand that the number 7 holds different meanings for each branch of Christianity

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Catholic, Mandos

[Gandalf_theGrey]

littlemanpoet:

My compliments to you on your poetic portrayal of Dwarves, as reviewed through a literary lens ... wonderfully whimsical, witty, and astute! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

theWhiteLady:

Nice commentary. Nice having you here at the Barrow Downs! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Building on your mention of seven being the number of completeness and perfection in the Christian doctrine, I'd posit that the number seven might suggest Eru's stamp of approval on Aulë's creation ... keeping in mind the deleterious effects of the Seven Rings with their tendency to enhance temptation for gold/greed, the dual symbolism can easily be seen as conflicted or paradoxical.

These musings of mine are a work in progress, open to refinement in the forge of discussion.

* bows *

Gandalf the Grey

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

[Mandos]

Oh.

[Mandos]

Is not seven also a prophetic number? It is mentioned earlier that this number is used several times in the book of Revelation. Ex. seven trumpets, vials, etc. Could there also be some hidden meaning in the sequence of numbers used, 3,7,9,and 1 ? Besides being all odd.

[galadriel'smaiden]

I am Catholic... 7 is an odd number, it can mean pure evil or perfection. 12 is the ultimate along woth 3

[Galorme]

dunedain_aragorn, they are not Elves, or do not deserve to be called that. They are Elfs, and if you refer to them as such they are totally justified. You could say Tolkein perverted Elfs (which he certainty did, though Enriched is more accurate), to make Elves.

[littlemanpoet]

Thanx, Gandalf the Grey! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Salute! (darn I can't make that mark over the e)
It has been too long.
By the way, mildly wrong (shux it rhymes, ok?)
on Elves; Elfs were the Victorian
corruption; thru Tolkien the Edwardian,
Elves have been raised
to their original great-
ness. As to seven,
the number of heaven,
I suppose even perfection
can receive corruption
with Ringed Dwarves who can't
live where gold is scant.
[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[Mandos]

Elves or Elfs? haha In the Book of Lost Tales the earliest writings of Tolkien simply refers to them as "gnomes". He doesnt start using the words "elfs" or "elves" for a little while. This shows the Norse impact on some of his writings. I do believe that the Norse legends were some of the first to mention gnomes. Example of this is the Kalevala which Tolkien based many things on.

[doug*platypus]

Tolkien's invented history would predate any tales of the Brothers Grimm etcetera. Maybe it's possible that the Grimm Fairy Tale was supposed to emulate the actual story of the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves? Whacky, I know. At least now we could finally hazard a guess at the names of all the Fathers: Durin, Grumpy, Sleepy...

Also, I think "Unoriginality" might have been a little off as the discussion topic. Tolkien borrowed from other myths in order to bring his invented world more in line with traditional mythology, and to renew appreciation for the great works. NOT because he was short on ideas.

[Galorme]

The only problem is that then you have 8 fathers including Durin. Maybe Sleepy never woke up when the elves did? Or maybe Durin was just a nickname?

Hello my name is Grumpy, but you can call me Durin Lord of the Longbeards.

[Durelin]

I was just kidding about the Snow White thing! Disney is the pits, down there with Hollywood...wait, is it Hollywood? I'm Catholic too...there are a good number of Catholics here I have discovered.

[Mandos]

LOL well this is a place for Catholic and other denominations. haha i am a southern Baptist.

[Durelin]

Is there seven in the Baptist Church? Wait...Snow White was a book long before the Disney movie, so there is still a chance, perhaps unlikely, but a chance. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Kalessin]

Tolkien was both fascinated and influenced by a range of ancient mythologies, particularly the Nordic brand. If you are looking for sources, you could start with Wagner's Ring Cycle, itself a Germanic derivation of Norse myths, and work back.

The Grimm Brothers' fairy tales referred to are also often seen as part of a conscious attempt to revive a particular national (cultural) identity through the rooting of society in moral fable (and many of the original Grimm stories are dark and violent), and thus contain episodes, symbols and creatures from ancient folklore.

There is in fact a certain parallel here with Tolkien's expressed desire to (re)create an essentially English mythos, but I don't believe this is the defining issue behind his eclectic use of older mythic elements.

The point in answer to the post is that Tolkien's mythic archetypes were not 'original'. His sources and symbolism were eclectic but again not original. And the Christian sensibility of the tale was and is not unique.

His achievement, and the real "originality", in my view, is the binding of his personal passions, spiritual convictions and academic discipline into a genuinely epic narrative. First and foremost Tolkein was a storyteller - and LotR is his great story, it's scale and ambition matched and justified in its execution.

Peace [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Kalessin

[ January 05, 2003: Message edited by: Kalessin ]

[Mandos]

Yes, but a large part of Tolkien's influence ( especially the elves and gandalf ) came from the Finnish Kalevala.

[Durelin]

You're a very smart person Kalessin! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] You too Mandos. People here are all smarter and older than me. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Sad. I am lonely! Sarcasm. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ January 05, 2003: Message edited by: Durelin ]

[Mandos]

hmm, im not very certain what the number seven means to the Baptist Church. I attend an Assembly of God church ( that's Pentecostal- we're a little louder than baptists) but basically have the same beliefs. We all go by the same Bible.

[Durelin]

Yeah, but I don't really know much about the things like the Seven Sacraments practised in Catholicism. Thought the Baptists or other Christians might have something like that but Tolkien was Catholic. But why Seven for the Dwarves? Why not seven for the Elves? There has to be something more to it than the fact that seven is a Religious number.

[Mandos]

That is true. Well, they were all odd numbers, that may mean something.It is just strange though, when were there nine kings of men, i thought that there was just the high king, and maybe two lesser kings. However, were the seven originally made for dwarves, or did Sauron simply forge them all (except the 3) and distribute them on his own? Or were there 7 especially made just for the Dwarves?

[Durelin]

I didn't think Sauron forged any beside the One. I thought they were specifically made for the Dwarves. Weren't the 3 7 and 9 made be Elven smiths?

[Mandos]

The 7 and the nine were made by Celebrimbor under Sauron's supervision. The three he knew were made, but he never saw or touched them.

[Mandos]

When i said forged them all, i was meaning to ask did Sauron supervise and help the Elves ( for it was he who taught them the craft or ring forging) forge the 7 and nine. and were they made all at once and intended to be seperated later and distributed, or were there seven in the beggining speciffically made for dwarves, and nine speciffically made for men.

[Durelin]

Thanks for correcting me, like I said, people are too smart for me! I know more than some people,but not many. I think though that they were made specifically. Just my opinion. Not sure why. Think I'll forget this discussion till I find something to say that I can back up!

[Bill Ferny]

[img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

There is NO numerology in Catholic doctrine. Seven means seven; when applied to apples, seven means seven apples; when applied to cherries, seven means seven cherries; and when applied to sacraments, seven means seven sacraments. The Catholic Church teaches that everything you need to know and do for salvation can be learned from the life and words of Jesus Christ, and there are NO hidden meanings in anything.

That does not mean that those who wrote the Bible were themselves free of numerology. For certain writers certain numbers had a certain meaning or significance. What’s important, for a critical analysis of the Bible, is to know the meaning or significance, not the numerology. It does not also mean that some Catholic theologians haven’t leaned toward numerology, particularly those who were dear to the philosophy of Pathagoras like the early Saint Augustine. Saint Bonaventure had a tendency to see threes in everything. This not with standing, numerology has never been taught by the Catholic Church.

Kalessin… Great post.

[Kalessin]

Bill, I agree that numerology is more a manifestation of the mysticism that permeates many people's sense/experience of, or projections upon, religion. I would have guessed that perhaps the deepest genuine mystery in Catholicism was the nature of the Holy Spirit, to which Tolkien alludes in some sense with his "secret fire of the Ainur", although I'm not definite on this area.

So many posts end up (or start out) with the premise of Tolkien's essentially Christian message/allegory/sensibility/applicability, or indeed the lack of same. It is a core issue for those with an interest in the philosophical or thematic understanding of his works, and the man himself.

The difficulty is perhaps always that in the end, the vast scale and scope of his works, and his uninhibited eclecticism (which gives his stories such colour) mean that every point of view has narrative examples with which to illustrate their preferred position - from paganism, environmentalism, (inevitably) racism and sexism, to theology, allegory and/or specific morality.

I maintain there are inherent contradictions - in the work, in the author, in us as humans, and in these grand concepts themselves - which are not faults or flaws, but quite the opposite : they are an essential factor in the universal appeal and intuitive humanity of the stories, and one of the reasons for the enduring and profound popularity of Tolkien's work.

Peace [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Kalessin

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Thanks for taking it easy with the "A" word (meaning allegory). Tolkien always proclaimed that it wasn't an allegory, just a story he was fond of and wanted to relate to us. Uh, yeah, anyway, Sauron supervised the seven and the nine and Celebrimbor himself made the three (Sauron's hands never touched them), but even though Sauron didn't get the three he did manage to take all the others and he distributed them to men and dwarves.

"Grumpy, who's at the door?"
"It's some pretty lady."
"Who does she say she is?"
"Why Doc, she says she's called Annatar. . . ."