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12-27-2013, 06:55 PM | #1 | |
Blithe Spirit
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Should she glow?
So, Tauriel´s glow of healing...did it make any sense?
I´m assuming that the idea for the glow came from this: Quote:
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12-27-2013, 07:19 PM | #2 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Just saw DoS - more elsewhere. Could it be that 'the glow' was just from Kili's point of view, as he was far down the black Morgul road looking back with eyes of love and she was his savior - and pretty attractive as well?
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12-27-2013, 08:00 PM | #3 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Short answer is no.
Long answer is an orc should not have had a morgul arrow and Tauriel should not have been able to heal such a wound. |
12-28-2013, 10:03 AM | #4 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Real answer: does TauriElle even exist?
(I haven't watched the movie so I can't give any actual ideas on the matter)
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12-28-2013, 10:10 AM | #5 |
Gruesome Spectre
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Nice to see you, Lal! Your assumption is faulty, I'm afraid, as it's difficult to imagine PJ actually reading the books.
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12-28-2013, 02:39 PM | #6 |
Blithe Spirit
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Hmm.. does the idea of Tauriel´s glow being purely in the mind of Kili, make things worse, or better...?
From a canonical point of view, I think Tauriel could have healed Kili. I just don´t think she would have glowed while doing it. Nice to see you too Inzil *waves*
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12-28-2013, 02:52 PM | #7 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Quote:
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12-28-2013, 03:08 PM | #8 |
Blithe Spirit
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Ah, a nice nerdy discussion about healing, just what I was hoping for!
That's a very good point about Glorfindel. But I suppose it could depend on whether a fragment of the blade was in the wound. In Frodo´s case, not only was there a fragment but it had been there for two weeks, working its way close to his heart. Kili´s wound was only a couple of days old. Maybe even a Silvan elf could heal Morgul wounds if caught early.
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12-28-2013, 03:11 PM | #9 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Quote:
Off topic, but I did not mind Tauriel's character. The only thing that annoyed me was the romance with Kili. The two are not even the same species. |
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12-28-2013, 09:03 PM | #10 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Has anyone studied the effect of a "Morgul" arrow being used by a non-wraith?
Our studies, though not totally comprehensive, suggest that most of the "Morgul" weapons, with the exception of those used by one of the Nine, are in fact cheap knock offs made in Khand. They are simply over-priced standard issue poisoned weapons with great infomercials. So any elf could heal the wound caused by such a weapon. And note that when Arwen glowed, she wasn't healing Frodo, but just approaching him when he was in a very sickened state. Possibly just delirium.
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12-30-2013, 04:19 PM | #11 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Arrows are not swords. Orcs are not ringwraiths. So the healer didn't have to be varsity. She was healing poison, not black breath. I had no problem with that. As far as the glowing... even in the woods of the Shire, the Wood elves glowed on the way to the Grey Havens. They weren't Glorfindel either (and if they were supposed to represent Gildor, well, they didn't...)
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12-31-2013, 11:29 PM | #12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I think it's more a matter of Elrond and Aragorn actually being finely trained in the art of healing that makes a difference - not the fact that neither are Silvan elves. To think that all elves have access to that kind of education is kind of weird. Then again, as a lieutenant, or whatever Tauriel is, I assume she has some basic first-aid training. Not sure if that includes healing with athelas, though.
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01-01-2014, 07:03 AM | #13 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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Quote:
I doubt Tauriel, or any of the Mirkwood Elves, ever came in contact with athelas. Sounds like more PJ finagling to provide filmgoers who haven't read the books with more "continuity" linking the new films with LOTR.
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01-01-2014, 07:10 AM | #14 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
I think the "continuity" served to make the films rather trite, even if the effect was perhaps meant to offer familiarity. One of the main reasons I found TH such a weak film was the way it leaned so heavily on the LotR movies for support.
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01-01-2014, 10:50 AM | #15 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Of course Tauriel should glow. She is part of a planned Twilight crossover fan-fiction movie, where glowy elfesses and sparkly vampires battle for no other reason than because there will be enough cretins to waste money to watch it.
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01-01-2014, 09:42 PM | #16 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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I have watched the movie today. Didn't mean to; we were going to see a different one but it was sold out, so we stayed for The Hobbit, and now I can properly comment on this.
I don't mind her glowing. Whether it is Kili's delirium, a manifestation of her healing, or a good measure of skin care products, it's not the thing that worries me. I definitely agree that the whole morgul wound business is quite a fake. Seriously? It's not the Nazgul that have the "death power", quote unquote, but any itsy bitsy filthy orc? Ya right. That was a pretty random shot at a pretty random dwarf, just the same as any other arrow, and not more special than their swords, axes, and etc. Conclusion: they are all armed with morgul weapons. Absolutely. Very logical. And the kingsfoil business - once again, seriously? Firstly, how do the Dwarves think of using it? And, erm, doesn't it kind of defeat it's name and purpose: KINGsfoil? It's supposed to be used by Aragorn, what are they doing, having a Dwarf think of it and a sylvan Elf use it? Trash.
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01-04-2014, 12:03 PM | #17 |
Blithe Spirit
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I don't know about kingsfoil being exclusively used by the kings of men, despite the name. "The hands of a king are the hands of a healer" means that kings are good at healing, but it doesn't mean that only a king can heal. I'm sure that the use of kingsfoil originated with the elves, particularly given that it has a Quenyan name as well as a Sindarin one - asëa aranion. Back in the days of Beleriand, Huan and Luthien used athelas to heal Beren, after all.
But I agree that for Oin to have such in-depth knowledge of it is bizarre.
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01-04-2014, 12:15 PM | #18 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Quote:
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01-04-2014, 12:31 PM | #19 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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And there's no reason at all for Tauriel, as a Nando, to glow at all; it's dubious that Arwen would, even to Frodo in his affected state. Neither one was an Elf of Aman.
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01-04-2014, 12:44 PM | #20 |
Gruesome Spectre
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I wonder if that is a reflection of the Bakshi film. Regarding that, I've heard the depiction of the animated Elves as being "three F-stops too bright".
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01-04-2014, 05:55 PM | #21 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Quote:
Many used it to clear the air or to cure headaches, and some think it pig fodder.
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01-04-2014, 09:01 PM | #22 |
Gruesome Spectre
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Kingsfoil probably would have gotten its name because it was used by the kings in healing, and they probably usually kept it on hand. The commoners would have had access to it as well, but any association with healing to those in Gondor (or Arnor) could naturally have also led to an association with the kings.
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01-05-2014, 09:55 AM | #23 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Just as a completely baseless aside, when I first read the trilogy in 1972 or so, I assumed from the description (hastily read) that aethelas was actually wintergreen. Wintergreen has numerous uses, I don't know of anyone who cultivates it, And any fool can make tea out of it or wash a wound with it.
Aragorn' s ministry to Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry was more about Osanwe than aethelas. He wrestled the forces of darkness for their souls, calling them back from desolate wandering and despair-- and won. While the movie showed Gandalf doing that for Pippin, the movie didn't show Aragorn doing any of that; the movie showed Aragorn squeezing out a washcloth. At least Tauriel broke a sweat and did some spiritual warfare. To me this is more like having Treebeard quote Bombadil' s lines. At least it's a gesture toward what might have been.
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02-08-2014, 07:20 AM | #24 | |||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Why the glow?
Science. Peter Jackson is simply striving to make his films scientifically accurate. These glowing elves are akin to the Moon, which shines no light of its own but merely reflects that of the Sun. More scientifically, photons emitted by the Sun bounce off (are not absorbed by) of the Moon and enter our eyes and excite electrons in our brains, and then we sit and write poetry. Anyway, this insight dawned on me while reading FotR (emphasis mine): Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Morgul weapons retain this radiation, and Elves and Elf friends, by seemingly refusing receipt, repel it, and hence glow. Science. [More experiments are presently being conducted at CERN].
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02-09-2014, 03:12 PM | #25 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Quote:
There are no statistics on how many people were cured, but given the deplorable state of medicine in the Middle Ages and early modern times, the laying of hands was probably more efficacious than mercury-laced medicines and blood letting. At least one didn't die of the cure.
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02-09-2014, 03:20 PM | #26 | |
Gruesome Spectre
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Quote:
As for the laying on of hands, there was probably a psychological aspect as well involved as far as the King was concerned, as having the King (as a semi-divine entity) actually touch one could feed the will to live. True healing power was obviously possessed by the kings though, at least demonstrably in Aragorn's case with his healing of unconscious persons.
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02-09-2014, 05:46 PM | #27 | |
Wight
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Quote:
Tauriel's clearly a Tatyarin Avar anyway, so she shouldn't glow, but then neither should Arwen in the LotR movies - the whole glowing thing was just Glorfindel putting forth his power to begin with, but in the movies it seems a valid artistic license. On the other hand, the use of Athelas and the Morgul Arrow are just messing with the Lore for no good reason.
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02-25-2014, 01:16 PM | #28 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The last monarchs to perform the royal touch
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This year, in Lent —12, I was taken to London, to be touched for the evil by Queen Anne. My mother was at Nicholson's, the famous bookseller, in Little Britain. My mother, then with child, concealed her pregnancy, that she might not be hindered from the journey. I always retained some memory of this journey, though I was then but thirty months old. I remembered a little dark room behind the kitchen, where the jack-weight fell through a hole in the floor, into which I once slipped my leg. I seem to remember, that I played with a string and a bell, which my cousin Isaac Johnson gave me; and that there was a cat with a white collar, and a dog, called Chops, that leaped over a stick: but I know not whether I remember the thing, or the talk of it. I remember a boy crying at the palace when I went to be touched. Being asked "on which side of the shop was the counter?" I answered, "on the left from the entrance," many years after, and spoke, not by guess, but by memory. We went in the stage-coach, and returned in the waggon, as my mother said, because my cough was violent....We were troublesome to the passengers; but to suffer such inconveniences in the stage-coach was common in those days to persons in much higher rank. I was sick; one woman fondled me, the other was disgusted. (My emphasis) The last monarch known to have touched his people in this way was King Charles X of France (r. 1824–30), at his coronation on 29th May 1825, when he touched 121 people. |
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04-11-2014, 11:38 PM | #29 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Is she a character in Tolkien's books or just another invention for PJ's work? I'm confused.
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04-12-2014, 06:52 AM | #30 |
Gruesome Spectre
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The Tauriel character does not appear in the books, and is completely of the imagination of the filmmakers. If only she'd remained there.
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04-12-2014, 08:08 AM | #31 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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There's no room in Tolkien's world - call him "misogynist" if you like - for Warrior She-Elves (largely a very, very recent staple of RPGs, movies, comic books etc, plus ancient legend where, again, they were exceptional (Hippolyta, Atalanta) or divine (Athena, the Valkyries). Eowyn is a Thang precisely because she is completely unique and unexpected; as for female Elves, Tolkien merely says that "at need" they would fight to defend their children and homes. In this then they were not unlike the ancient Teutons, of whom Tacitus expressed as much surprise as his laconic style permitted; most enemy women, when the menfolk were defeated, simply accepted slavery meekly.
But the notion that a female would have been Captain of the Guard, or for that matter a member of the Guard or of any regular military body - was alien to Tolkien's imagination (and real-world experience). (It's to be noted that in the real world right down to the present day, females were not found in ground-combat arms of the world's militaries until the last few years).
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04-12-2014, 09:36 AM | #32 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
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Quote:
Quote:
Having served some time in the military, I can speak to the fact that being a soldier is physically demanding. It requires not only a level of cardiovascular fitness (at which women actually can and do better men many times), but also a high degree of strength, especially upper body. Though today's weapons are much lighter in weight than in the past, it still needs physical power to carry and shoot combat arms such as shotguns, rifles, and machine guns. In earlier eras the strength required was much greater: wielding longswords and winding crossbows was many times limited even among men to the strongest. The idea of a slender Elf-woman having a position in Tolkien's Middle-earth that required melee fighting as an occupation is utter rubbish.
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04-12-2014, 02:19 PM | #33 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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08-21-2014, 02:36 PM | #34 |
Haunting Spirit
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That freaking glow It looked like somebody had opened the fridge door behind her. and whats with the nut pillow?
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08-22-2014, 07:43 AM | #35 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
'There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practised by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need.' ... and when the essay gets specific about fighting and healing, the nissi [Elven women]... 'Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals.' ... and exceptions with respect to Elven-men and hearling are noted... 'On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need.' So it appears to remain that Elven-women fought under the already described scenario, and not outside it [again, even though in a more general context, customs could vary for certain reasons] -- within which scenario [in my opinion] might fall Idril arming herself [if this was to remain a detail in any updated Fall of Gondolin, that is], and possibly Galadriel's heroic defense of the Teleri [if in fact this was part of Galadriel's 'true' history]. Some ifs there. Last edited by Galin; 08-22-2014 at 08:00 AM. |
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08-31-2014, 07:45 PM | #36 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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The question might be, "Did she glow?"
Watching the scene again, clearly Tauriel glows. Interlaced with her glowing is Kili looking at her while in a manic/delirious state. After all of the glowage, one of the dwarves remarked that they'd just witnessed some remarkable Elven healing, but this statement does not indicate that the elf glowed. Absent from the scene where shots of the other people in the room, staring at Tauriel while she healed Kili. Methinks that the glow way in the eye of the beholder, love sick dwarf that he was.
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